Poll

Are You practicing the Steps in Initiaion into Hermetics?

Yes, very strictly.
47 (15.8%)
Yes, mixed with my other practices.
112 (37.7%)
Kinda, of and on again.
53 (17.8%)
No, it doesn't fit with me.
49 (16.5%)
No, What is IIH?
28 (9.4%)
No, don't have the time.
8 (2.7%)

Total Members Voted: 297

Author Topic: Who is Practicing the IIH?  (Read 578100 times)

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October 10, 2011, 12:13:57 PM
Reply #330

trismegistos

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What I meant by mundane feat is that creating physical fire has no use in evolving a person, it is simply a "cool trick".  If you go out in public and create fire with your hands, you aren't going to attract people to evolve themselves and become God-realized, you are going to attract them to power and power alone, they will conjure all sorts of ideas of how they could use such power to obtain wealth and fame, instead of what controlling the elements is really about, spiritual evolution.

You certainly wouldn't be the first person to create physical fire though, you just haven't met any Adepts yet.

October 10, 2011, 01:48:55 PM
Reply #331

for_Him

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Jordana Divinorum, you haven't done your research
there are many examples, and even videos, of people using chi energy or whatever you call it, to start fires with their hands, or make bells ring at a distance, or even manipulating a person's body from a distance (in martial arts usually)

if you look into it, you will find plenty examples. last one i watched was about a chinese guy who said he meditated for 10 years or so, in order to be able to cause fire, and he did cause it for the camera, his usual activities are around healing, and after that one interview he said he can't say any more about what he does, and didn't appear again on camera as far as i understood

there's plenty examples of magic being done, even videos, not fake ones but real ones, if you look into it you'l find all proof you need, if you want to see it first hand, go travel to those places, meet those people, and they will show you what they can do

October 10, 2011, 02:56:14 PM
Reply #332

Willi

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Jordana Divinorum, you haven't done your research
there are many examples, and even videos, of people using chi energy or whatever you call it, to start fires with their hands, or make bells ring at a distance, or even manipulating a person's body from a distance (in martial arts usually)

if you look into it, you will find plenty examples. last one i watched was about a chinese guy who said he meditated for 10 years or so, in order to be able to cause fire, and he did cause it for the camera, his usual activities are around healing, and after that one interview he said he can't say any more about what he does, and didn't appear again on camera as far as i understood

there's plenty examples of magic being done, even videos, not fake ones but real ones, if you look into it you'l find all proof you need, if you want to see it first hand, go travel to those places, meet those people, and they will show you what they can do
John Chang. Epic. Worth looking into.

October 10, 2011, 03:22:53 PM
Reply #333

Jordana Divinorum

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Arcatuthus:  Thanks for the response.  I'm wondering, is there any reason why it would be a bad thing if people revealed that magic is real to the public?  If it works with the laws of nature that already exist, why would it be a bad thing to share that with the rest of the world?  I was reading the journal for Imperial Arts where he talked to Astaroth and Astaroth was saying that we're all spiritual beings manipulating a material world.  The decision to pick your nose is mechanically the same as the most complex conjuration you can think of.   I can understand people that are disciplined enough to create elements from their mind not wanting to show off for the public, but I can also understand why the public wouldn't believe in something unless they saw it.  I can tell people that aliens live in my back yard, but I won't expect them to buy into it unless I provide them some sort of proof.  I believe it is possible to do the things we're talking about, I just haven't seen it first hand yet.  That's awesome you had the opportunity to meet with some good magicians.

I understand that you don't want to attract people that are all about wealth and fame, but the trick is, how can they do it themselves without doing the work first, and finding their own balance?  Even if they want fame, they won't have the patience to do the actual work, so it won't matter.  Also, what's wrong with fame/power/wealth? If you're mastering yourself, shouldn't you also have success in the physical world around you?  I've never really heard of people manipulating bodies at a distance.  I guess none of these guys would ever want to enter a martial arts tournament.  I found this video of a kia master: 
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gEDaCIDvj6I

October 10, 2011, 06:28:36 PM
Reply #334

ArcaTuthus

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I'm wondering, is there any reason why it would be a bad thing if people revealed that magic is real to the public?
I am not even close to being a master of anything, even myself. I am however a student. I am of the opinion that magic is something that needs to happen internally first. The desire to search it out, is part of the process. It really is not about power(s) or anything except for evolution of spirit. I don't think it matters really if anyone believes it, when you have the inner experience there is no need for belief, it becomes truth.

I understand that you don't want to attract people that are all about wealth and fame, but the trick is, how can they do it themselves without doing the work first, and finding their own balance?
I am not sure I understand this question. As far as I can tell, they do the work first. I think I misunderstand what is being asked here?

Even if they want fame, they won't have the patience to do the actual work, so it won't matter.  Also, what's wrong with fame/power/wealth?
Nothing inherently, it is the attachment to these things that hinders us. Fame is ego, Power is relative, Wealth is fleeting.

  If you're mastering yourself, shouldn't you also have success in the physical world around you? 
I suppose so. Success is relative as well.

I've never really heard of people manipulating bodies at a distance.  I guess none of these guys would ever want to enter a martial arts tournament.  I found this video of a kia master: 
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gEDaCIDvj6I
I have seen some pretty crazy martial arts demonstrations by these same magicians I spoke of earlier. In fact many magicians use various martial arts to supplement their practice.
And how!

October 12, 2011, 10:54:08 AM
Reply #335

for_Him

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Willi you are a legend, didn't remember the chinese guys name, thank you!

divinorum - agree with you completely. it is strange that at one end there is whole thing about 'silence, don't throw pearls before pigs' at other end there is the opposite 'Know Thyself'. I think they were afraid that magic would be scorned with bad publicity and magicians would be searched and executed, and voila that already happened. and now magic means nothing but 'trickster'. that damage has already been done. i think it should be made public and people will then believe and learn, and enter on that path. and the path will change them, one step at a time. or they will experience no results. there is no risk in this. there's a parallel discussion on this in spirituality board, where after a debate the posters came to a conclusion that Spirituality and specifically the scientific proof of various spirituality concepts is going to be the next step towards making 'magic' more acceptable and widely known, at least on some level.

Maybe this is the process
Ignorance -> Proof of Physical world and it's operations (Scientific Studies) -> Proof of what can be done in the mental world (Scientific Studies in Spirituality) = Acceptance of some magical principles, or at least laws.

i think we are already moving at full speed in the direction where sooner or later some levels of magic will be scientifically proven (for they already are, just under the label of 'spirituality' or 'bioenergetics' or 'quantum physics', etc)

October 12, 2011, 11:27:59 PM
Reply #336

Jordana Divinorum

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Nothing inherently, it is the attachment to these things that hinders us. Fame is ego, Power is relative, Wealth is fleeting.

What is power relative to? What I'm getting at is: Why does it matter if you show people magic is real?  They would still have to start at "square one" and do all the work you did to get the same results.  There isn't a magic potion they can drink that will make them breathe fire.  Either magic is possible within the physics of the reality that we live in, or it's not.  I don't believe it's a loop-hole, a secret advantage, or anything like that.  We probably just haven't tapped the full potential of our minds yet.

Quote
I suppose so. Success is relative as well.

What is success relative to?

Quote
I have seen some pretty crazy martial arts demonstrations by these same magicians I spoke of earlier. In fact many magicians use various martial arts to supplement their practice.

I'd like to know more about this.  I practice Karate and it would be cool to blend martial arts with occult studies.

Anyway, I often wondered why no one ever stepped up and took part in something like the James Randi challenge if they had a real psychic or magic ability.  The things you could do with a million dollars could help countless people.  If magic is part of the natural world, I don't see any reason why it can't be used to help mankind.  The whole idea of keeping silent comes from the idea that you have to let your spell go, and talking about it means you're still attached to it.  Also, you don't want anyone getting in the way or doing a counter-spell before it's done.  I can't see how it relates to performing an instant act of magic.

Some examples or what could be done with the million dollar prize:
Feed 90,000 starving people with rice for one year.
Keep 25 hospitals, each with 100 beds, operational for one year, saving countless of lives.
Buy 145,406 pairs of crutches for people with their legs blown off by landmines.
Buy 15,510 wheelchairs or artificial limbs for landmine victims.
Buy 58,162,500 water purification tablets, capable of cleaning 581,625,000 liters.
This will provide clean water for at least 227,641 people for one year.
Buy 46,530,000 packets of Oral Rehydration Salts to treat diarrhea, a leading cause of death among children.
Buy 7,755 school-in-a-box kits, with educational supplies for up to 80 children each.
That's 620,400 children.
Buy new clothing for 36,351 children who have lost almost everything.
Provide 116,325 infants with formula or baby food for a week.
Pay for the removal of between 2,326 and 7,755 landmines.

October 13, 2011, 01:52:38 AM
Reply #337

Akenu

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@Jordana Divinorum:
There was time I didn't understand the Law of Silence. My teacher taught me it was obsolete and we should share.
I found following problems with sharing during my experience:
1) People you want to share with have to be ready. Else you will be considered as weirdo even if you show pretty much physical results.
2) Sharing with your friends is not the brightest idea, either. They will start having talks behind your back about you.
Both of above damages not only Ego. It also damages friendships, trust and to some extent also self-esteem

3) Time by time we get some help from above. It can be a ritual, some ability, whatever. By sharing knowledge you've got from Divinity, it can lose its effects for you. This also happened to me few times.

Now regarding James Randi's challenge.
1) I am not famous and I doubt any of members here are (only famous people can undergo Randi's challenge)
2) Randi's Challenge was made to reveal fraud and Randi is really good in it. Many famous wanna-be psychics were defamed by Randi. Still Randi's Challenge wasn't made to find real psychics, just to reveal fraud.
3) Let's say you have a person with a very high level of enlightenment. Such person knows nearly everything and can do whatever wishes with reality. Questions are: Why this person isn't famous and why this person doesn't take Randi's challenge?
well, why that person should do that? You won't get the money to next reincarnation (if you want to undergo it again) and such person will also most probably believe that money is not solution. Just delay of suffering, but not solving the problem of suffering itself. Only real solution for suffering is enlightenment of all people.

Relativity of success:
Success is not relative "to something". It's simply relative based on individual's opinions. Is your definition of success to become famous, to master elements, to become enlightened, to eat 100 sausages in a row?
For me, success is to have a family and take a good care of it.

If you want to improve your Karate a bit, try Qi Gong, I think you will find it very fruitful.

May God bless you.

October 13, 2011, 04:59:53 AM
Reply #338

for_Him

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i had a similar conversation with my mom yesterday, she told me of a short story, i think its relevant

A student sought out the wisest and most powerful magician in the land,
He went to see him to spend 3 days with him, to learn some of his wisdom,
He arrived and was puzzled that the magician lived in just a little room with a blanket on the floor
There were no posessions in it, nothing at all, but the blanket
He couldn't believe that the magician lived in such a poverty

The student spent 3 days with him thinking that the magicina was a scam,
But after 3 days he was more than convinced that this was indeed an incredibly wise and powerful magician,

On the last day, leaving the room of the magician, he could not resist and asked the magician a question
''I hope this is not rude, but you have so much wisdom and power, why do you live like this? Where are all your things?'' - student asked.
And the magician kindly replied ''Where are all your things?''
The student was puzzled by this wierd question, and replied ''I am here only for 3 days. Why do I need things if I am here only for a while?''
The magician then replied to him ''I am also here, only for a while.''

Maybe with that kind of perspective, fame, money and the rest, really become completely pointless. And spending $1m on 'helping' others is an interesting piont.

In Bahagavad Gida the young Arjuna said to Krishna 'I don't want to fight all these people, in this war. I do not want to kill them!'' and Lord Krishna replied to him ''You must do what you must do. But do not be fooled, you can not kill them. Do you think you can kill the Soul of Mr. X  by killing his body? You can not kill a soul Arjuna. You must learn a lesson from this war, but do not think that you will kill anyone learning this lesson.''

So here we have a dilemma, do we help a person in need, or are we simply fooling ourselves when we help them. i honestly still can't figure it out. i think we should still help, so long as we help them not for ourselves but for themselves. Like in hebrew language the lesson of the letter (gimmel, i think) is about doing charity, but in a way that nobody knows who did it, so that your ego does not benefit from it in any way. Maybe thats why the all powerful magicians don't let anyone know who they are or what they are about. who knows.

October 13, 2011, 10:50:36 PM
Reply #339

ArcaTuthus

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Power and Success are relative by their nature, imo. And the magicians I have met do show people, the people who have sought them out, or some might even say that the meeting was determined "before the horizon". I can't show people magic is real because I have only witnessed things that are outwardly present. I have plenty of subjective experience, but non of it matters to you or anyone but me, really. I wish I had better answers for you, I really do.
 
Do you know magic is real? Just as a serious question, my experience is that it is real. What is your definition of magic?

I am of the opinion that science can be a dogmatic trap, as much as religion or magic can be. It is a wonderful tool, and science when it is definitive of nature itself is pure, but when a mind who may or may not be able to understand the truth of the nature of reality tries to state that all the rules of its own scope dictate the rules of that which may be out of it's scope just doesn't jive with me:) I am not saying "anything is possible", but I am saying that sciences changes a lot according to understanding.

It seems like you might be stuck on what the value of your way of helping humanity might be, to you. Not that it isn't valid, it is, anytime one puts themselves in the service of their fellow beings they put themselves into service of the self and divinity. Why does "going public" with magic make the most sense? I get your point, I just tend to think that it is expressive of human need to rationalize.

I definitely haven't tapped the full potential of my mind.
 
And how!

October 14, 2011, 11:33:26 AM
Reply #340

for_Him

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i think we are entering a pointless discussion now, so i withdraw, with due respect

October 14, 2011, 02:10:00 PM
Reply #341

ArcaTuthus

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I actually have to agree. I was debating posting but I thought it might be rude not to. Much respect to all involved, though.
And how!

October 14, 2011, 06:58:09 PM
Reply #342

Steve

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Quote from: Jordana Divinorum
Anyway, I often wondered why no one ever stepped up and took part in something like the James Randi challenge if they had a real psychic or magic ability.  The things you could do with a million dollars could help countless people.  If magic is part of the natural world, I don't see any reason why it can't be used to help mankind.  The whole idea of keeping silent comes from the idea that you have to let your spell go, and talking about it means you're still attached to it.  Also, you don't want anyone getting in the way or doing a counter-spell before it's done.  I can't see how it relates to performing an instant act of magic.
First, there are people who have stepped up to the Randi Challenge. Randi has not allowed any of them to get past preliminary testing because he simply refused to accept their claims or their feats. Do a search for people who have stepped up and why they never passed; it shouldn't take long.

Secondly, money is only a medium. If magic is real, then magic can be used to help those millions of people without needing to do it through money. However, most people are inherently selfish to varying degrees. "If the magic doesn't benefit me, why should I use it for another?" Or to say it another way, "if my magical capabilities are not yet at the point of being capable of benefiting me, then how can I use something that doesn't work to benefit others?"

Magic is not the end-all-be-all God-power that many make it out to be. It can do amazing things... or rather, amazing magicians can use magic to do amazing things. Mediocre magicians can use magic to do mediocre things. Most who are learning magic are still toddlers or youth along the path, myself included. I can't use magic to win Randi's million (or "maybe I can, but I merely haven't tried"), I can't use magic to grow crops to feed millions, I can't use magic to ease the suffering that is a natural part of life. Maybe I will one day be able to, but that day is not today. For those who are at "that day" in their lives, who knows if they are attempting to assist or not? Even if they are, however, Life is still what it is, and what life is is very grand and very complex. I'm not saying "don't bother helping because it's beyond us", but rather "even if you attempt to help, just remember that you're not God so you can't conquer Life itself just because you feel sorry for people who are suffering".

On the topic of sharing magic versus keeping silent, I'm all for the idea of show-casing magic to those who are "worthy" to see it (if you chose to do it, not because someone thinks they're entitled to see it), with the caveat that the show-casing itself doesn't do anything for the people who witness it. As someone else mentioned, though I don't see it now, there is no magic potion to allow a person to start using magic. Showing them that magic is real just lets the person know that the path to magic is real, but the person involved has to make that journey themself... if they're truly interested in it. However, demonstrations of magic are not for everyone. There are many who would purposefully misunderstand, those who will never understand, and those who would pervert.

The whole idea of keeping silent is less because you become attached to your spell or because you're worried that someone else's disbelief will cancel the magic. You keep silent for more broad reasons that have to do with not showing magic to the unworthy, not only because that could damage their own minds and their livelihoods if they become obsessed over it, but because it can cause the magician a great number of headaches if people keep pestering the magician. A similar reason to why you wouldn't go out to a bar and start telling every thug in the place that you won the lottery (whether you have or haven't won the lottery. a lot of people seem to view magic, as well as any great skill, as "omg, you're so lucky to be able to do that! show me how you do it so that I can start doing it right now too!" rather than "wow, that level of skill must have taken a lot of effort over a long time to achieve"). The short term concept of keeping silent is to assist the magician in conquering the ego, as a sort of exercise to keep them from bragging constantly and falling into the trap of thinking they're already so great compared to everyone around them that they can stop learning. Once the ego is conquered, the magician can start looking outward with honest perception and try to see what is truly best for the people around him/her, and at that stage it is no longer a burden to speak when it is meaningful.

~Steve
« Last Edit: October 14, 2011, 07:04:07 PM by Steve »
Mastery does not occur when you've performed a feat once or twice. Instead, it comes after years of training, when you realize that you no longer notice when you're performing a feat which used to require so much effort. Even walking takes years of training for a human: why not everything else?

November 02, 2011, 12:18:51 PM
Reply #343

Jordana Divinorum

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Thanks guys, I don't mean to spark a debate or anything.  That's an interesting story about the magician that doesn't have very many possessions.  That makes sense to me, and the only thing I would disagree with is that you need some sort of material success in order to have diverse life experiences, such as traveling the world, publishing your art, etc.  I think it's great to meditate and master your mind, but I always ask myself if you're really learning much about life by sitting in a room or temple meditating 24/7 instead of going out, dealing with all sorts of people and situations.  I could be completely wrong, who knows, but lately I've been thinking that the purpose of life is to have new experiences in the physical realm.  I'm not sure if someone that leads a simple life and mostly meditates will have as much wisdom as someone that's had a lot of romantic relationships, done business with good and bad people, gone to rock concerts/played in a band, shared drinks with good friends, explored different countries, etc.
Either way, what I'm interested in are the elemental exercies, and ways to make them stronger.  I'm not sure if simply repeating them every day will make them more effective, or if there are other ways to develop them.  I also with that Bardon would give more details on how to develop scrying.  That's one thing I've never been able to get the hang of properly.

November 02, 2011, 07:09:12 PM
Reply #344

mrblack

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Either way, what I'm interested in are the elemental exercies, and ways to make them stronger.  I'm not sure if simply repeating them every day will make them more effective, or if there are other ways to develop them.  I also with that Bardon would give more details on how to develop scrying.  That's one thing I've never been able to get the hang of properly.

Keep going at the elemental exercises, it's like doing pushups; in the beginning; you can do 5, eventually you will reach 100.
And yes, there are alot of ways to develop them.

As well, isn't scrying in step IX? I'm asking because it doesn't sound like you passed step 3 yet and you need to somewhat
need to know those steps.....
hepaby!

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