Author Topic: Higher bodies?  (Read 6991 times)

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February 14, 2008, 07:38:38 AM
Reply #30

Vir Fortunae Lucisque

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I mean this as respectfully as possible. It just seems there's a lot of arcane mumbo-jumbo involved. Mysteries, veils, hidden truths, secrets, oaths, elitism and other oogledy-boogledy.

Magic isn't about who holds the best secret, or who's ready for the mysteries. IMO, magic is for everyone willing to put forth the effort to learn, and what may be your pace is not necessarily my pace. The Christ was born fully developed, as tales of his wondrous deeds come even from his youth. (Is it in the book of Tobit where he causes a bear to eat other children who laughed at him?)

This all started somewhere. I'm sure whoever first stumbled upon magic didn't worry about "unveiling mysteries" and whatnot. In "Oven Ready Chaos," the author writes how magic started with a shaman sitting on a rock with a glazed look sucking on a soggy mushroom. While I doubt this is exactly the truth, it's probably not far off.

In regards to those who aren't "ready" for the mysteries, this may well be true! But the Universe can take care of itself. Those who stumble upon things they're not prepared for have a tendency to learn the hard way (usually by exploding and ridiculous amounts of pain) that some things are not to be trifled with. Let Nature run her course, and the fools will be culled from the ranks of their own accord. There are those few who also LEARN from these mistakes, and that makes them better for it in the long run.

And the idea of "average" and "above average" is thinly veiled elitism to my mind. We can't do anything that anyone else is incapable of. Whether a person chooses to, or is ready to, exercise their divinity is completely up to them. It does not make them bad if they are "cowan."

Magic is fun! Magic can be irreverant and still be reverant! Laugh, cry, be joyful! Solemnity has its place, but learn to laugh a little! Even King David "danced before the LORD." Let's not be dust-covered, squinty-eyed academics with our noses either perpetually in the air or perpetually in a book! You who have seen these "mysteries" should be the silliest bunch out there! You know how grandiose it all is, isn't that reason to smile?
Omnia mutantur, nihil interit. ~ Horace
Credo ut intelligam. ~ St. Augustine

February 14, 2008, 08:59:29 AM
Reply #31

Saer

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I mean this as respectfully as possible. It just seems there's a lot of arcane mumbo-jumbo involved. Mysteries, veils, hidden truths, secrets, oaths, elitism and other oogledy-boogledy.

Ever think it is you who lacks the understanding and reasoning ability required to see the mysteries of the Universe? It is good that you are questioning it, but this sounds more like a personal problem than one of another.

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Magic isn't about who holds the best secret, or who's ready for the mysteries. IMO, magic is for everyone willing to put forth the effort to learn, and what may be your pace is not necessarily my pace. The Christ was born fully developed, as tales of his wondrous deeds come even from his youth. (Is it in the book of Tobit where he causes a bear to eat other children who laughed at him?)

There is a universal definition of magic, allow experience to teach you. Reading can only get you so far. I find that reading is only good for giving me the knowledge so that when a spiritual revelation is to be had, I may possess the mental capacity to understand it and not make a spiritual experience, physical.

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In regards to those who aren't "ready" for the mysteries, this may well be true! But the Universe can take care of itself. Those who stumble upon things they're not prepared for have a tendency to learn the hard way (usually by exploding and ridiculous amounts of pain) that some things are not to be trifled with. Let Nature run her course, and the fools will be culled from the ranks of their own accord. There are those few who also LEARN from these mistakes, and that makes them better for it in the long run.

No one has stated he isn't ready for certain mysteries. You have missed the point of this thread and the words of the posters and have instead gone off on a tangent you felt needed to be heard. This is quite fine, but do it in its proper time and place.

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And the idea of "average" and "above average" is thinly veiled elitism to my mind. We can't do anything that anyone else is incapable of. Whether a person chooses to, or is ready to, exercise their divinity is completely up to them. It does not make them bad if they are "cowan."

Yet again, your tangent has struck. You have stated one truth in this, "is thinly veiled elitism to my mind." It is you who has the problem and lacks the understanding, do not become upset at what you have yet to experience. The second part of this statement is only meant to appeal to those inert souls, who can now feel comfortable with the lack of progress they have made.

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Magic is fun! Magic can be irreverant and still be reverant! Laugh, cry, be joyful! Solemnity has its place, but learn to laugh a little! Even King David "danced before the LORD." Let's not be dust-covered, squinty-eyed academics with our noses either perpetually in the air or perpetually in a book! You who have seen these "mysteries" should be the silliest bunch out there! You know how grandiose it all is, isn't that reason to smile?

I enjoy your creative wording but it holds no truth. This yet again appears to me to be the words of someone who is trying to find comfort in stagnation.


As you love your own body, so regard everyone as equal to your own body. When the Supreme Experience supervenes, everyone's service is revealed as one's own service. Call it a bird, an insect, an animal or a man, call it by any name you please, one serves one's own Self in every one of them. ~ Ma

February 14, 2008, 09:21:39 AM
Reply #32

Hech

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Magic is fun! Magic can be irreverent and still be reverent! Laugh, cry, be joyful! Solemnity has its place, but learn to laugh a little! Even King David "danced before the LORD." Let's not be dust-covered, squinty-eyed academics with our noses either perpetually in the air or perpetually in a book! You who have seen these "mysteries" should be the silliest bunch out there! You know how grandiose it all is, isn't that reason to smile?

I enjoy your creative wording but it holds no truth. This yet again appears to me to be the words of someone who is trying to find comfort in stagnation.

Good, I'm glad that you posted again, Saer. Let it be known, however: Though Saer and other magicians say this, it does not mean that they have no "fun". Joy should be a very important aspect of a magician's life. Though he may be quite lonely at times, though he may not have the fun of playing a sport or the entertainment of watching a television, true magicians experience the greatest forms of love, joy, and bliss. So great are they that they go unknown to most people.

Verily, the Lord may have made me "cry" and "be joyful", but this does not mean we should use this as an excuse to take serious matters lightly and "find comfort in stagnation." In fact, your post did not seem to come from the discussion at hand (but instead from the thoughts in your head that reacted to the discussion at hand). Saer, Entity, and others were not saying anything greatly mystical or arcane; they gave fantastic advice that readers would do well to heed. Advice that came from personal experience. Understand the deeper meanings of the words you use, V.F.L. (such as fun and joy).

I hope that I articulated my post in a way that properly represents my knowledge. As for the rest of Saer's post, I wholeheartedly agree with it also (as with his prior one as well).
« Last Edit: February 14, 2008, 09:27:26 AM by Hech »

February 14, 2008, 10:09:58 AM
Reply #33

Vir Fortunae Lucisque

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@Saer

Thank you. I see the wisdom in your words. And yes, I did drive off on a tangent that I did indeed felt needed to be said, at least for my edification. Thoughts in words tend to solidfy one's understanding of one's own beliefs. Apologies if the expressed intent offended those to whom it did not even apply.

I think it bears mentioning that I do indeed a lack of knowledge, and a discontent due to stagnation as you called it. I didn't know that was what it was, but you are RIGHT. This post served its purpose because I was able to express an important idea (to me), while at the same time being exposed to greater wisdom. I didn't know WHAT to call the origin of my malcontent, but it is indeed stagnation. I think my whole goal here is to rise up from the mire, and continue my Path. Thank you for lending me a hand in rising from the murk.

However, I do still maintain my position on those who do not choose, or care to choose to practice magic. It takes all kinds to make the world go round, as my daddy always said. We ALL have a purpose to serve, and not everyone's purpose is found in the Great Art.

@Hech
I appreciate your words as well, Hech. I did not mean to express a lack of knowing when to be reverent. I love fire, and much joy can be had with it (e.g. fire for warmth, fireworks, et al) but I also show it a healthy respect, as being burned generally sucks.


Omnia mutantur, nihil interit. ~ Horace
Credo ut intelligam. ~ St. Augustine

February 14, 2008, 10:55:42 AM
Reply #34

Hech

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The occult teachings tell us that everything and everyone functions according to Divine Will. So I suppose you're quite right that not everyone is to follow the path of magic in this life. Who are we to judge? And I do not think that anyone in this thread has. All are on the path of evolution, so say the Illumined. Magicians only seek to speed the process for themselves and for humanity, in a wholehearted devotion to serve the Divine.


"No right to judge is given. For in doing so you only judge yourself, only judging God."

February 14, 2008, 11:06:20 AM
Reply #35

Vir Fortunae Lucisque

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The occult teachings tell us that everything and everyone functions according to Divine Will. So I suppose you're quite right that not everyone is to follow the path of magic in this life. Who are we to judge? And I do not think that anyone in this thread has. All are on the path of evolution, so say the Illumined. Magicians only seek to speed the process for themselves and for humanity, in a wholehearted devotion to serve the Divine.


"No right to judge is given. For in doing so you only judge yourself, only judging God."


Hear hear! Well said.
Omnia mutantur, nihil interit. ~ Horace
Credo ut intelligam. ~ St. Augustine

February 14, 2008, 08:19:39 PM
Reply #36

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Sivananda said:

"Who has learned to domain his mind, has a total domain of the Nature"

And another quotes that I cant traduce.

Whatever.. A person who practice kundalini yoga told me that it doesn't matter the karma. He opened his chakras in just one month.

February 14, 2008, 08:28:40 PM
Reply #37

Entity

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Whatever.. A person who practice kundalini yoga told me that it doesn't matter the karma. He opened his chakras in just one month.

And how does he know this? And how do you know he knows this? And is there any way I can know you know he knew this?

Also, truly... I don't believe there is any such thing as an opening of the chakras. Perhaps they will alow more energy in but they are always open, if not, you're... well dead.  :wink:

I do believe they get blocked a bit however. But some people think it is something where it's like, bam one second they're closed then all of a sudden they blast open. I am not however discrediting your friend. I would love to know more.
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February 15, 2008, 08:16:37 AM
Reply #38

Veos

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Whatever.. A person who practice kundalini yoga told me that it doesn't matter the karma. He opened his chakras in just one month.

And how does he know this? And how do you know he knows this? And is there any way I can know you know he knew this?

Also, truly... I don't believe there is any such thing as an opening of the chakras. Perhaps they will alow more energy in but they are always open, if not, you're... well dead.  :wink:

I do believe they get blocked a bit however. But some people think it is something where it's like, bam one second they're closed then all of a sudden they blast open. I am not however discrediting your friend. I would love to know more.

    That reminds me of a statement made by Siddhanath.  He said "when I first came to America, all of the americans who came to my yoga lectures were all saying "my kundalini is awake" and "my chakras are fully open", and "I sit with a straight back because of the Kundalini", and so I said 'why oh why Babaji have you sent me to America?'".

    Moral of the story: many westerners think they have awakened their Kundalini or have reach self-realization or activated their chakras.  In reality, they are confusing what may be part of one of their first legitimate spiritual experiences with being the final attainment or the Kundalini awakening or some other thing.  They have never been around a true Guru who could tell them otherwise.  Their egos get in the way.  It is like people who practice Initiation into Hermetics by Franz BArdon for 2 months and tell me they have mastered all 10 steps.  The New-Age movements have bastardized a great deal of Eastern teachings about the Chakras and Kundalini.  If all of your friend's chakras were open, he would be in a state of perpetual bliss. 
He would be able to enter into complete Nirvikalpa Samadhi.  His body would go pale and stiff and hisspinal chord would heat up as his consciousness became absorbed int he spinal chord and shot up through the Brahmarhandra into the universal Brahman God Consciousness, and he could remain this way for hours, even days.  He would know your thoughts and those of others.  He would be able to heal.  He could do all of the Siddhis.  He would have full memory of his past-lives as one flow of consciousness.  He would be able to give you Shaktipat (transference of Shakti energy) and awaken your kundalini, or give you his blissful mind by direct transference of consciousness.  Now of these, which can your friend do?  I say this because in the new-age movement, the term "chakra open" is used way too loosely.  The actual Yogic teaching from the ancient scriptures say that the Chakras only opne one at a time as the Kundalini rises to each one.  This tends to take 7-11 years of intense spiritual training (about 6 hours a day is the norm in an actual Yoga Ashram).  So, your friend has not opened his chakras.  At most, he may have gained some feeling for their presence, which is a very basic elementary skill.     
Soham Sivoham Aham Brahma Asmi Mahavakya
Suddha satchitananda purna parabrahma
Chidananda Rupa Sivoham Sivoham

February 15, 2008, 08:22:02 AM
Reply #39

Hech

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This is something I never understood. Could I take a random person off of the street and have them be fully enlightened in eleven years? If somehow they were dedicated, I could take just anyone, put them in the ashram to practice for six hours per day, and they would truly reach full realization? It seems a bit easy...I would assume there to be far more enlightened masters roaming around then I hear about.

February 15, 2008, 09:01:02 AM
Reply #40

Rawiri

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No. From AE Waites 'Arbatel of Magic':
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Meditation, inward contemplation and the love of God are the chief aids to the acquisition of Magical Art, together with great faith, strict taciturnity and even justice in the things of daily life. Finally, a true magician is brought forth as such from his mother's womb; others who assume the function will be unhappy.

From the Arbatel: Of The Magic of the Ancients :
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Fourthly, Whereas every man is to be vigilant to see to what kinde life he shall be called from his mothers wombe, that every one may know whether he be born to Magick, and to what species thereof, which every one may perceive easily that readeth these things, and by experience may have success therein; for such things and such gifts are not given but onely to the low and humble.
And further on, in Aphorism 42:
Quote
Secondly, we are to know, That a Magitian is a person predestinated to this work from his mothers wombe; neither let him assume any such great things to himself, unless he be called divinely by grace hereunto, for some good end; to a bad end is, that the Scripture might be fulfilled, It must be that offences will come; but wo be to that man through whom they come. Therefore, as we have before oftentimes admonished, With fear and trembling we must live in this world.

Notwithstanding I will not deny, but that some men may with study and diligence obtain some species of both kindes of Magick if it may be admitted. But he shall never aspire to the highest kindes thereof; yet if he covet to assail them, he shall doubtless offend both in soul and body. Such are they, who by the operations of false Magicians, are sometimes carried to Mount Horeb, or in some wilderness, or desarts [deserts]; or they are maimed in some member, or are simply torn in pieces, or are deprived of their understanding; even as many such things happen by the use thereof, where men are forsaken by God, and delivered to the power of Satan.
Of course, this is speaking in reference to yoga. But the same applies...'one size fits all' is not true. 'Different strokes for different folks' is. Magic is NOT 'for everyone' as some seem to loudly proclaim. At least, not in the sense they generally mean. As to 6 hours a day for 11 years being easy...I have not done such in this lifetime. But I doubt it is easy. Particularly it is not easy now, when people have all their 'ideas' on things, they have too much information and skip about alot. There is no rooting in one area, and so they do not draw forth the water that would quench their thirst. Some people are frankly not suited to the higher yogic practices, particularly in Hatha Yoga. The typical Westerner, and even the 'exalted' Westerner is generally not suited for Raja yoga. But they may be suited for Ceremonial Magic etc. As such, it'd be a matter of finding the correct practice for them...that is all of course assuming they are ready to follow through and have their heart and soul in it.
« Last Edit: February 15, 2008, 09:08:14 AM by Rawiri »

February 15, 2008, 09:34:05 AM
Reply #41

Entity

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That reminds me of a statement made by Siddhanath.  He said "when I first came to America, all of the americans who came to my yoga lectures were all saying "my kundalini is awake" and "my chakras are fully open", and "I sit with a straight back because of the Kundalini", and so I said 'why oh why Babaji have you sent me to America?'".

    Moral of the story: many westerners think they have awakened their Kundalini or have reach self-realization or activated their chakras.  In reality, they are confusing what may be part of one of their first legitimate spiritual experiences with being the final attainment or the Kundalini awakening or some other thing.  They have never been around a true Guru who could tell them otherwise.  Their egos get in the way.  It is like people who practice Initiation into Hermetics by Franz BArdon for 2 months and tell me they have mastered all 10 steps.  The New-Age movements have bastardized a great deal of Eastern teachings about the Chakras and Kundalini.  If all of your friend's chakras were open, he would be in a state of perpetual bliss.
He would be able to enter into complete Nirvikalpa Samadhi.  His body would go pale and stiff and hisspinal chord would heat up as his consciousness became absorbed int he spinal chord and shot up through the Brahmarhandra into the universal Brahman God Consciousness, and he could remain this way for hours, even days.  He would know your thoughts and those of others.  He would be able to heal.  He could do all of the Siddhis.  He would have full memory of his past-lives as one flow of consciousness.  He would be able to give you Shaktipat (transference of Shakti energy) and awaken your kundalini, or give you his blissful mind by direct transference of consciousness.  Now of these, which can your friend do?  I say this because in the new-age movement, the term "chakra open" is used way too loosely.  The actual Yogic teaching from the ancient scriptures say that the Chakras only opne one at a time as the Kundalini rises to each one.  This tends to take 7-11 years of intense spiritual training (about 6 hours a day is the norm in an actual Yoga Ashram).  So, your friend has not opened his chakras.  At most, he may have gained some feeling for their presence, which is a very basic elementary skill.     

Great response, thanks for helping to clear this up. Also, in response to...

Quote
Whatever.. A person who practice kundalini yoga told me that it doesn't matter the karma. He opened his chakras in just one month.

If he says he opened them in  one month, then this means at one point they were in fact closed, which also denotes that the many channels of his body were blocked to some extent. Keeping this in mind... if he were to indeed open all of his chakras, such an intense and magnificent amount of energy surging through his body would have most definitely have fried his mortal frame. In my opinion  :wink:

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February 15, 2008, 02:04:14 PM
Reply #42

Hech

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As to 6 hours a day for 11 years being easy...I have not done such in this lifetime. But I doubt it is easy.

I meant that it seems too "easy" for enlightenment to come to him who does such, but I suppose that the only one who would withstand such dedication is one who is ready for the results.


Some people are frankly not suited to the higher yogic practices, particularly in Hatha Yoga. The typical Westerner, and even the 'exalted' Westerner is generally not suited for Raja yoga.

Can you explain these "higher yogic practices" of Hatha and Raja yoga?

February 15, 2008, 02:13:29 PM
Reply #43

Entity

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Can you explain these "higher yogic practices" of Hatha and Raja yoga?

I know you want a response from him however I believe he simply means intense concentration and giving up the householder's life. For hatha yoga you need to remember that most Americans simply see this yoga as a stretching workout and nothing more. All of the Kriyas and kundalini yoga which is a sect of Hatha yoga are all very "high up".

These may not seem like "higher up" to us, however they do indeed take up a lot of time and think about how few westerner's would want anything at all to do with yoga in the first place.

Peace brother.
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February 15, 2008, 02:38:48 PM
Reply #44

Hech

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Ah, I see. If that is indeed what he meant, I understand. Thank you, Entity. Namaste.