Author Topic: I Am The Second Coming  (Read 9546 times)

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December 06, 2007, 04:03:11 PM
Reply #60

MathewPfaff

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Hech, I don't think you know what Magick is then.
I AM LEGEND

December 06, 2007, 04:50:26 PM
Reply #61

Oriens Lvx Lucis

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Hech, if you know what magic is, then I do no see why you do not explain it.  If you wish to receive something, you must be ready to give the same if you have it.  Also, you have demonstrated magical knowledge before, and from context it is obvious you ask that question to test him rather than for knowledge.  This is pointless.  Let him be.

MathewPfaff, if you truly know what magic is, a simple explanation would suffice, instead of dodging the question.  While Hech may have been at error to test you, actually answering the question would give you more credibility, rather than your automatic rebuttal of everything that is said to you when someone answers a question of yours.

Now then,

1.  "Magic is the art and science of change in conformity with the will" -- Aleister Crowley

Here we see a rather simple, general view of magic which is all-encompassing.  The point here is that magic primarily depends upon the force of  will to change reality according to the desires of the magician.  The will is used to actualize the intent.  A simple enough explanation, is it not?  Not even two paragraphs are needed.  However, for a more thorough and satisfactory answer, there are other examples.

2.  "Sorcery has been called magic: but magic is wisdom, and there is no wisdom in sorcery." -- Theophrastus Paracelsus

This is a more spiritual oriented view of magic, especially Hermetic and alchemical.  Magic is illustrated as a parallel of mysticism which leads to the acquisition of wisdom.  Wisdom is heralded as an ultimate goal, while sorcery is directly insulted and frowned upon.  Sorcery in this context is magic without wisdom; the barren use of the will to change reality without seeking a higher purpose founded in a spiritual search.  More simply, the absence of "high magic."

3.  "Magic is the Highest, most Absolute, and most Divine Knowledge of Natural Philosophy, advanced in its works and wonderful operations by a right understanding of the inward and occult virtue of things; so that true Agents being applied to proper Patients, strange and admirable effects will thereby be produced. Whence magicians are profound and diligent searchers into Nature; they, because of their skill, know how to anticipate an effect, the which to the vulgar shall seem to be a miracle."  -- The Lemegeton of Solomon the King

Another spiritual view expressed here, holding magic in high honor as a tool whereby divine knowledge is discovered.  Furthermore, this path to divinity allows the individual magician to gain more and more authority, which expresses itself on this material plane as the ability to change the world as we wish.  As a side note, it is interestingly similar to the eastern notion that those who have attained self-realization and always dwell in the presence of brahman may change the fake, illusory universe of maya as they wish via their divine will.  Magic is not directly shown to be only a spiritual medium for the acquisition of knowledge, but it is shown to certainly be a prime means by which knowledge of divine and generally unknown things in nature may be attained.

4.  A thorough familiarity with the occult faculties of everything existing in nature, visible as well as invisible; their mutual relations, attractions, repulsions; the cause of these; in other words a profound and exhaustive knowledge of natural law – this was and is the basis of magic.  -- Helena Blavatsky

That magic is not the discovery of hidden things per se, but rather the use and operation of occult principles to effect change in the macrocosm.  That magic cannot exist without being knowledgeable of higher natural laws which, when applied to lower laws results in outwardly chance reactions in turn manifesting the desire of the magician.  This view shows magic to be the application of occult virtues, and that thorough practical knowledge must be known about both the mundane and occult aspects of surrounding nature.  In this way a magician can perform things which the men ignorant of these same laws call "miracles."  Also, it is shown that though the will is the fundamental force behind magical operation, knowledge to effect this will in a methodical manner must be present, naturally.

5.  "Magic is a faculty of wonderful virtue, full of most high mysteries, containing the profound contemplation of most secret things, together with the nature, power, quality, substance and virtues thereof, as also the knowledge of whole nature, and it doth instruct us concerning the differing, and agreement of things amongst themselves, whence it produceth its wonderful effects, by uniting the virtues of things through the application of them one to the other, and to their inferior suitable subjects, joining and knitting them together thoroughly by the powers, and virtues of the superior bodies.  This is the most perfect, and chief science, that sacred, and sublimer kind of philosophy, and lastly the most absolute perfect of all most excellent philosophy."  -- Cornelius Agrippa, The First Book of Occult Philosophy

Quite possibly the most exhaustive explanation of magic in this included set.  The magician is viewed as a divine scientist, who, by working with the occult virtues throughout the whole of nature acquires knowledge of all things.  The very image of the magician is that of a scientist experimenting with his formulas and reactions to change whatever he wishes in nature, through, again, the application of a higher "superior" law to a lower "inferior" one.  Magic is described as the quintessence of all worthy studies, leading to intimate, practical (instead of simple theoretical) knowledge and even wisdom as to how to use a specific set of actions and principles to make a particular change, and not only how to change nature, but why these changes work the way they do and why nature works in the way it does.  Using this sort of view, a magician is the one who, despite perhaps not having a fully (material) "scientific" view of why a tornado occurs, is able to make and dissipate tornadoes as he pleases, with high levels of accuracy depending on practice.  Indeed, performing one action will invariably lead to another result, being the backbone of a scientific method applied to magic.  Though also, here we see that the will is not given as much importance as in other explanations.  Rather, special attention is given to the various laws and principles in nature, which, while requiring an independent will and force to move them, have a power and virtue of their own which will act of their own accord with greater or lesser efficiency depending on how well a task is matched with an occult virtue.  In other words, the magician merely activates what is already existent in nature; he does not create, and he absolutely never breaks a law.  It only appears so to those who are ignorant of higher laws.  True miracles are therefore not the place of magic, but rather divinity, which the magician is also expected to become familiar with according to Agrippa's quote here.  One could say Agrippa's philosophy is a combination of the strict scientific view of Blavatsky and the more spiritually, wisdom oriented perspective of the Lemegeton, though Blavataky came centuries after Agrippa's time.

There, I believe that suffices as a short yet thorough explanation of magic.  In a sentence, magic is the acquisition of occult and material knowledge, and the subsequent application of these occult laws to lower mundane ones to exact change according to the will of the magician in nature, such that apparent miracles may be manifested in a scientific manner.

Namaste

« Last Edit: December 06, 2007, 05:25:26 PM by Oriens Lvx Lucis »

December 06, 2007, 07:05:02 PM
Reply #62

Hech

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Oriens Lvx Lucis: To explain myself... I didn't want to test him. I asked because I wanted to know his definition. I think that his definition would be invaluable to this thread, and in the context which Veos was using, for example, I do not think he knows what magic is. I did not give my definition because I did not want it to taint his answer in any way, and most importantly, I did not want to get sidetracked with him possibly picking out various areas of my post to say, "Ah! Only perception!" rather than answering my question. It seems rather ridiculous, for lack of better words, to say, "You first," rather than simply answering the question. Rather than going through the process of explaining myself, I decided to simply say, "No," and see what would next ensue. I asked the question first because I wanted to clarify his definition with his opinions, and it would be an easy matter to work from there. Of course, my intentions are only good, and I would not continue participating in this thread if I did not think that good may possibly come of it. My purposes here are not for my own enjoyment at another's expense. Namaste.
« Last Edit: December 06, 2007, 07:08:17 PM by Hech »

December 06, 2007, 07:19:36 PM
Reply #63

kobok

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1+1 = 2.

That is to say, if I have an apple in a basket and put another apple inside the basket then I have two apples.

Just don't try this with rabbits.
Latest article:  Construct Dynamics

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December 06, 2007, 07:48:45 PM
Reply #64

INFINITE LIGHT

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After you of course...


Learn from your own knowledge. Magick and Science are just as you say they are. Perceptions that humans put on reality. Everything simply is, and everything is one. Take away the title of "magick" from your works and all the premises and assumptions that lie within them. Take away the perceptions of "science" and "technology" from all yousee around youand all the premises and assumption that theybeget. Everything simply is.

A technology that is far ahead of it's time cannot be destinguished from what we call magick. Radionics is like this. I see no difference, I see only the same thing. It was your post and the words of my professor today that helped me realize this good sir.

I use to subscribe to the belief system that science was just a perspective of thought.

And that the true definition of magick was intent + energy manipulation = magick.

But no longer. For I no longer see rules, only guidelines. No longer see "difference" only "oneness."

I now see now only one art, the art of living. And see only one discipline, the discipline of life.
This perspective will do me well.
« Last Edit: December 06, 2007, 07:57:15 PM by INFINITE LIGHT »

Mine is not a better way Just another way
I am by no means a master just a student
what I value is not the only thing that is to be valued.
And my way is not the only way
JESUS IS LORD!

December 07, 2007, 07:21:58 AM
Reply #65

MathewPfaff

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Oriens, I wasn't dodging the question and I'm sorry if it appears as though I was.  And my post are not rebuttals, I haven't said one person is right or wrong, I've just gone with the flow.  And as for my definition of Magick, I don't know.  I don't know what Magick is but I understand this not knowing.  To you, Magick is a definition given your posts but your posts ultimately destroy what it really is, its essence.  Everything we've ever been taught or learned can't be taken as truth, it's someone else's perception, so therefor I have no idea what Magick is, and then I don't think anyone else really knows either.  Unless they've found it themselves but telling us what it is will then destroy it.  I'm looking for what Magick really is behind all these lies, because I really don't know, but I'm looking.  Can anyone here post honestly that they know what Magick is without not knowing it themselves?     
I AM LEGEND

December 07, 2007, 08:54:17 AM
Reply #66

Tankdown

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To me magic is the unknown, simply hopes and dreams of wishful thinking to obtain the speculation of empirical desires. Magic to me is a phenomena only to be destroy by the will of science and the wisdom of modesty.

Well that's some of my thoughts on it.
To do, become -Myself
<---Little demon

December 07, 2007, 09:14:25 AM
Reply #67

Saer

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Oriens, I wasn't dodging the question and I'm sorry if it appears as though I was.  And my post are not rebuttals, I haven't said one person is right or wrong, I've just gone with the flow.  And as for my definition of Magick, I don't know.  I don't know what Magick is but I understand this not knowing.  To you, Magick is a definition given your posts but your posts ultimately destroy what it really is, its essence.  Everything we've ever been taught or learned can't be taken as truth, it's someone else's perception, so therefor I have no idea what Magick is, and then I don't think anyone else really knows either.  Unless they've found it themselves but telling us what it is will then destroy it.  I'm looking for what Magick really is behind all these lies, because I really don't know, but I'm looking.  Can anyone here post honestly that they know what Magick is without not knowing it themselves?     

MathewPfaff, your over rationalizations will get you no where, my friend. You will continue to turn and turn and realize, you are back where you started. You must take one of your theories and begin to experience it physically, so you can begin to progress to higher levels of spirituality. Do not get me wrong, thinking and philosophizing are good things for the sane mind but as with all things, it requires moderation. You cannot ask another for their personal definition of magic, as from experience, magic is something subjective to the individual, which inherently is connected to a universal Truth, or objective reality, if you will. So, as Veos has said, begin to experience, rather than remain inert and continually speculate. In this way you can no longer say, "I don't know", and have legitimacy to your claims.
As you love your own body, so regard everyone as equal to your own body. When the Supreme Experience supervenes, everyone's service is revealed as one's own service. Call it a bird, an insect, an animal or a man, call it by any name you please, one serves one's own Self in every one of them. ~ Ma

December 07, 2007, 09:55:20 AM
Reply #68

Emira

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As some of you have deduced or been told from what I've said, I live with Matthew, he is my boyfriend, and I love him very much. As such, I have mostly avoided posting on his threads because I would be regarded as obviously biased in this discussion, but I feel it is necessary that you understand where he is coming from to understand what he is saying. Matthew used to be the archtypical "bad boy" he drank a lot, chased skirts, and had an anger problem (diagnosed with intermittent explosive disorder.) Once we started dating he decided that he never wanted me to see him like that, and so through meditation and a very large change in perception, he did change. He communeted vices into virtues, and the theories he has developed are not mere philosophic wondering for it's own sake, they are what he has arrived at through experience and self change. What he is saying is what he has arrived at based on the advice many here have given him. He as already practiced what many of you preached.

Edit: I reread this post after I made it and feel it may have been rude, thus some of the content was changed. If it was at all rude I apologize to anyone who was offended, I particularly apologize to Saer as it was unnecessarily directed at him.
« Last Edit: December 08, 2007, 04:21:45 PM by Emira »
“The purpose of all the major religious traditions is not to construct big temples on the outside, but to create temples of goodness and compassion inside, in our hearts.” –The 14th Dali Llama

http://nobelprize.org/nobel_prizes/literature/laureates/1993/morrison-lecture.html

December 07, 2007, 10:13:43 AM
Reply #69

Saer

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He as already practiced what you preached, to continue preaching it is to avoid giving your own true opinion on the matter, and perhaps avoid analyzing how you actually feel about the topics he breaches.

That being essentially the point, Emira. My own True opinion, which I have formulated from experience, about magic is not something that should be a concern of someone if they have developed their own. You do not divulge your inner most secrets, and you do not ask another for them if you already have them. However, he may carry on as he pleases, I simply wished to offer some advice based on something I saw was lacking and something that could potentially make him a "better person."
As you love your own body, so regard everyone as equal to your own body. When the Supreme Experience supervenes, everyone's service is revealed as one's own service. Call it a bird, an insect, an animal or a man, call it by any name you please, one serves one's own Self in every one of them. ~ Ma

December 07, 2007, 10:30:04 AM
Reply #70

Tankdown

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I admire his control.
To do, become -Myself
<---Little demon

January 09, 2008, 11:49:35 AM
Reply #71

Hech

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January 12, 2008, 01:59:45 PM
Reply #72

Quagmire

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This whole discussion seems to go back to the ever so touchy subject of belief. Ive read several discussions where people try to argue thier beliefs, and it essentialy leads to nowhere since no one can actually prove or disprove cartain topics such as "Is there a god?". When it comes to perception, in the big picture, ours is quite limited. Because of that, all we can really do is go by our perception and use our best judgement (which unfortunately not every one does). Some questions are just out of our reach of answering, but hey, it sure makes our universe that much more interesting.
-Q

January 30, 2008, 05:39:53 PM
Reply #73

VERiTAS

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The word rock is created by calling a rock - rock, the actual physical construct is what it is, look at it and that is what it is, that is what it was before some told you it was a "rock".

And you calling yourself the second coming is rather similar.. unless you expect the label to change your consciousness or your physical being.
Visita Interiora Terrae Rectificandoque Invenies Occultum Lapidem