Author Topic: picking up a car with TK  (Read 8993 times)

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January 14, 2008, 01:02:41 PM
Reply #60

kobok

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This leads us to the ultimate question: "Are our powers limitless or inhibited by laws of physics"?. To what extent is this world subjective? Because, clearly, we all operate in an objective reality where subjectivity does have an impact. Any insights?

Psi is well known to be disassociated from the known laws of physics, since it operates by non-physical mechanisms.  However, we do still have an objective reality, it is just that expectation is a key element in producing changes to this reality.  A majority on Earth believing that the Earth is flat is apparently not enough to make it so, because even while a majority believed this, more intelligent people were still able to measure the circumference of the Earth using geometry.  However, it is well documented that the collective hopes and expectations of groups of people can produce a statistical shift in the weather.

The way to divide what is and is not possible, is to consider the influence of expectation as MAKING a change, rather than as rewriting what is real.  For analogy, consider 100 people who go to the base of a mountain and try to push it all at once.  It will not move.  But if those 100 people start carrying away rocks, eventually they will move it.  Or if they get bulldozers or whip up dynamite, they will move it fairly quickly.  Therefore, the way in which they attempt to make the change alters their effectiveness.  So even though the actualization process in psi is to expect that a thing is so, this is still a process of making a change.  It is simply that the process for doing this begins with changing something internally first and reflecting it externally, rather than changing something externally and reflecting it inward.
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January 15, 2008, 02:20:56 AM
Reply #61

BohmaN

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This leads us to the ultimate question: "Are our powers limitless or inhibited by laws of physics"?. To what extent is this world subjective? Because, clearly, we all operate in an objective reality where subjectivity does have an impact. Any insights?

Psi is well known to be disassociated from the known laws of physics, since it operates by non-physical mechanisms.  However, we do still have an objective reality, it is just that expectation is a key element in producing changes to this reality.  A majority on Earth believing that the Earth is flat is apparently not enough to make it so, because even while a majority believed this, more intelligent people were still able to measure the circumference of the Earth using geometry.  However, it is well documented that the collective hopes and expectations of groups of people can produce a statistical shift in the weather.

The way to divide what is and is not possible, is to consider the influence of expectation as MAKING a change, rather than as rewriting what is real.  For analogy, consider 100 people who go to the base of a mountain and try to push it all at once.  It will not move.  But if those 100 people start carrying away rocks, eventually they will move it.  Or if they get bulldozers or whip up dynamite, they will move it fairly quickly.  Therefore, the way in which they attempt to make the change alters their effectiveness.  So even though the actualization process in psi is to expect that a thing is so, this is still a process of making a change.  It is simply that the process for doing this begins with changing something internally first and reflecting it externally, rather than changing something externally and reflecting it inward.

Great, well put! Now I understand better.

January 15, 2008, 03:49:33 PM
Reply #62

Steve

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Why exactly is it that hundreds and thousands of testimonies of very sensible, shrew-minded, and in the beginning even sceptical people do not matter or count for proof?  Are we to suppose that upon seeing some sort of sleight of hand the witnesses suddenly became ignoramuses and fools who were easily tricked?  Albeit it can't be technically considered evidence, it should at least mark what is previously thought of as impossible as possible and plausible.  Having many people testify to something significantly raises the chances of said thing being true.
I'm pretty sure that if David Copperfield's stage magic was marketed as real magic instead, that a lot of people would believe that his performances were real magic upon viewing them.

After all, how does he do it?

~Steve
Mastery does not occur when you've performed a feat once or twice. Instead, it comes after years of training, when you realize that you no longer notice when you're performing a feat which used to require so much effort. Even walking takes years of training for a human: why not everything else?

January 15, 2008, 11:26:46 PM
Reply #63

Redefine

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If everyone believed in something, no matter how extraordinary or remarkable, then it increases the chances of said thing being true (not makes it true automatically).
No, it does not.  And, there is absolutely no reason for you to think so.
What you might be witnessing is the majority (on some issues) having what is called common sense, and so the truth in matters is not because some people think something, it is because that something happens to be very obvious.  The concept of a thing being true just because someone tells you is the opposite, which is ignorance.
If we ran a poll right now, and the question was, "Does Oriens have a vestigial tail?", and the majority voted "yes", how likely do you think that is going to be true?  If it's not true, then is not going to be likely to be true by any standard of yours.
Also, you did not answer my question.  Is the Earth flat (as in not an ovulate-spheroid), and does the Sun revolve around it?  How close to the truth was the majority back then?
hmmm...and i thought expectation was a major component in all systems of psi, especially pk, where the expectation of doing something COUPLED with the will makes a significant change. without that expectation, it wouldnt happen
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January 17, 2008, 11:43:10 AM
Reply #64

solstice

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... That has nothing to do with what I just said.
BUT, if I were to pretend that it does, then believing that Oriens has a vestigial tail means that eventually he will have one?  People believed that the Earth was the centre of the Universe for a long time (longer than he has been alive), so why has that not happened yet, and how long will it be till that happens?

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and i thought expectation was a major component in all systems of psi, especially pk.
It's not always, if you consider cases of hauntings and poltergeists.  How are randomly fumbled objects a result of expectation?  In most of the extreme cases, the residents are afraid for their lives, and want everything to stop.
Tell all the Truth but tell it slant: Success in Circuit lies.  Too bright for our infirm Delight. The Truth's superb surprise. As Lightning to the Children eased, with explanation kind.  The Truth must dazzle gradually, or every man be blind.
Tefeari: The Giant Impact Hypothesis is a theory

January 17, 2008, 05:03:47 PM
Reply #65

kobok

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hmmm...and i thought expectation was a major component in all systems of psi, especially pk, where the expectation of doing something COUPLED with the will makes a significant change. without that expectation, it wouldnt happen

The expectation spoken of in psi is a deep internal expectation, which when one is unfocused, can quite easily contradict conscious expectation.

How are randomly fumbled objects a result of expectation?  In most of the extreme cases, the residents are afraid for their lives, and want everything to stop.

Wanting something to stop does not cause one to expect it to stop, except perhaps in people who are used to getting what they want.  But notice, you don't usually hear about such things happening around confident people.  Such things tend to happen around unconfident people, for whom events like that can be self-perpetuating.
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January 18, 2008, 12:00:41 AM
Reply #66

Redefine

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hmmm...and i thought expectation was a major component in all systems of psi, especially pk, where the expectation of doing something COUPLED with the will makes a significant change. without that expectation, it wouldnt happen

The expectation spoken of in psi is a deep internal expectation, which when one is unfocused, can quite easily contradict conscious expectation.

so would i be right in saying that most peoples claim to knowlege is not a deep internal expectation, only a small concious one? which means a civilization simply believing that it is the center of the universe will not make it so. the whole civilization must expect it at the deepest level of their being.
On a concrete road to recovery
cause I'm knocking over every cone
in front of me.

January 18, 2008, 01:06:05 AM
Reply #67

kobok

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so would i be right in saying that most peoples claim to knowlege is not a deep internal expectation, only a small concious one? which means a civilization simply believing that it is the center of the universe will not make it so. the whole civilization must expect it at the deepest level of their being.

Even this is not sufficient.  Of intent, energy, and actualization, a deep inner expectation only contributes to the actualization process.
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January 18, 2008, 01:58:58 AM
Reply #68

Redefine

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so a common belief is far FAR from making it so...

yeah...i've always thought that, even with psionics, but now i really get WHY.
On a concrete road to recovery
cause I'm knocking over every cone
in front of me.

January 27, 2008, 08:43:53 AM
Reply #69

Vir Fortunae Lucisque

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Blatant displays of power are immature, yes, I agree. But please, speaking for myself alone...

If I had the ability to blow stuff up with my mind, I would do it pretty much non-stop. Why? "Wow Factor," and because I can. Am I immature? You bet your sweet bippy. I want to not only levitate cars, I want to THROW them. And I'm an educated individual. I know it's practically impossible...but ye GODS it would be so friggin' sweet to throw a car....

EDIT: Normally I am more formal and serious than all of this. I know the limits, and I know propriety. However, it's good to play from time to time. Too much formality stifles creativity, IMHO. Please don't flame me for venting a thought (beware of generalization) we've ALL had at one point or another.
« Last Edit: January 27, 2008, 08:50:41 AM by Vir Fortunae Lucisque »
Omnia mutantur, nihil interit. ~ Horace
Credo ut intelligam. ~ St. Augustine

January 27, 2008, 09:00:20 AM
Reply #70

Zake

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Well, the argument that "people who have the amazing power to do such-and-such wouldn't" partially relies on an inherent maturity required to acquire such powers in the first place; if I could levitate a car, I'd probably happily do it in front of news cameras too, but I can't, and perhaps if I could I'd have learned by then to not.

Which isn't an absolutely solid argument, but its worth noting.  Regardless, its difficult to imagine a spiritually advanced person such as a "master" psion doing something because it would be "totally sweet." :D
Act; for the universe will never forget your movement, nor will it ever forgive your stillness.

January 27, 2008, 09:26:06 AM
Reply #71

Vir Fortunae Lucisque

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You're right, Zake. LOL. That's kind of the point, I guess. Although, I must admit, it is the desire for success that drives me when all hope is abandoned. I guarantee, if I ever do achieve adepthood...I will throw a car. I may be wise enough to do it in an abandoned field where no prying eyes are, but I will *definitely* do it. I feel entitled to at least ONE blatant display of vulgar power at least once in my life. Maybe not entitled, but what the heck. It's definitely going to happen. I am SO going to zap SOMETHING, just ONCE, and then return to the business of self-actualization.
Omnia mutantur, nihil interit. ~ Horace
Credo ut intelligam. ~ St. Augustine

January 27, 2008, 08:43:24 PM
Reply #72

BlacK

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I never start my car's engine. I just use PK to fly around, hovering a centimetre off the road so as not to arouse suspicion.

It gives both an incredibly smooth ride and is extremely fuel efficient. Also CD's don't skip when you go over speed bumps.

Ominous Latin phrase

January 28, 2008, 07:02:17 AM
Reply #73

Vir Fortunae Lucisque

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Excellent. You're my effing hero, dude! LOL
Omnia mutantur, nihil interit. ~ Horace
Credo ut intelligam. ~ St. Augustine