Author Topic: Demon Worship  (Read 117939 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

January 08, 2008, 07:59:31 PM
Reply #30

Saer

  • Veritas Furniture

  • Offline
  • ****

  • 480
  • Karma:
    3
    • View Profile
It's necessary to degrade your own self by doing what a demon would do? I still don't buy that.

I've dealt with many people IRL who were complete pricks throughout the entire conversation and didn't change their minds at any point in time, but maintaining a biblically "Godly" internal state allowed me to deal with them in a much better manner than they were dealing with me, and which impressed others around me for not degrading to their level. If you think that dealing with demons means you "have" to become less than godly, then I guess the best advice is to never deal with demons simply for that reason alone.

~Steve

The point that needs to be made, is human emotions and intentions change as the human pleases and desires to act toward a situation, as you have portrayed here. Humans may be intent on deceiving, condemning and disowning you or may be loving, kind and respectful toward you, this is an option for them. Demons, on the other hand are only capable of the former qualities. It is their intent, by any means necessary, to fool, deceive and ultimately degrade the magician. The magician does not summon a demon just to behave in an "ungodly" manner toward them, no, this comes as he realizes, intuitively and clairvoyantly, the intentions of the demon. He begins to treat them as they deserve to be treated, while maintaining his Divine status in the process.
As you love your own body, so regard everyone as equal to your own body. When the Supreme Experience supervenes, everyone's service is revealed as one's own service. Call it a bird, an insect, an animal or a man, call it by any name you please, one serves one's own Self in every one of them. ~ Ma

January 08, 2008, 08:02:21 PM
Reply #31

Hech

  • Posts By Osmosis

  • Offline
  • *****
  • Regular Member

  • 1153
  • Karma:
    15
    • View Profile
Have you ever kicked at rocks in a street, Steven? Most have, and this is not "wrong" because rocks are not human beings. Demons are not human beings either. Demons are not capable of learning what is right and what is wrong. This analogy comes through pure speculation because I have not evoked a demon. I assume that the same goes for you, Steven. However, Veos can speak on this matter from personal experience. It would seem that his word should be respected more readily than one who has had no personal experience.
« Last Edit: January 08, 2008, 08:04:59 PM by Hech »

January 08, 2008, 08:25:12 PM
Reply #32

Steve

  • Posts By Osmosis

  • Offline
  • *****

  • 3685
  • Karma:
    139
    • View Profile
Aye, I /have/ kicked at rocks in the streets, and gone out of my way to do so and have also gone out of my way to find and destroy little blocks of snow/ice during winter times. Do you know why I did it, and why I have subsequently stopped? I did it out of anger, frustration, and a desire to destroy things. I have stopped because I have been trying to become a better person. I'm obviously still in need of work considering how I treat others on these forums and in the chat, but changing how and why I treat inanimate objects the way I do was a sort of first step (ever notice how I am /not/ justified in being a prick to people on these forums no matter how frustrated they make me? It's because everyone knows, especially the mods, that it's not right to do so).

Do none of you understand? My complaints were never about how abused the demon becomes. They were about you, yourself, and your internal reasons for abusing others. If the discussion were just binding the demons for personal protection, I would have no problem whatsoever with it, as one must cage or subdue a wild animal before they can safely deal directly with it, but there were statements which went beyond this into the idea that one "should" abuse demons.

~Steve
« Last Edit: January 08, 2008, 08:34:15 PM by Steve »
Mastery does not occur when you've performed a feat once or twice. Instead, it comes after years of training, when you realize that you no longer notice when you're performing a feat which used to require so much effort. Even walking takes years of training for a human: why not everything else?

January 08, 2008, 08:33:15 PM
Reply #33

Hech

  • Posts By Osmosis

  • Offline
  • *****
  • Regular Member

  • 1153
  • Karma:
    15
    • View Profile
Ah, I see your point, Steven. Thank you for clarifying. Does this partially relate to your last post?

He begins to treat them as they deserve to be treated, while maintaining his Divine status in the process.

January 08, 2008, 08:35:14 PM
Reply #34

Steve

  • Posts By Osmosis

  • Offline
  • *****

  • 3685
  • Karma:
    139
    • View Profile
It pertains to what I said, but I disagree with it. A Divine status should be one of authority and severity when needed, but not insults and curses.

~Steve
Mastery does not occur when you've performed a feat once or twice. Instead, it comes after years of training, when you realize that you no longer notice when you're performing a feat which used to require so much effort. Even walking takes years of training for a human: why not everything else?

January 08, 2008, 08:36:16 PM
Reply #35

Watchtower

  • Posts By Osmosis

  • Offline
  • *****
  • Hundred-plus Club

  • 935
  • Karma:
    30
  • Personal Text
    Contemplative Panentheist
    • View Profile
Regardless of the nature of demons or whether they can learn "right" from "wrong," they aren't rocks either, they are sentient beings, I presume.  You can just as easily pick up a rock and move it as kick it, and if the rock is actually an entity, it seems you are just as bad as a demon if you needlessly inflict suffering on another being, regardless of whether that being would do the same to you if given the chance, and I think that is more Steve's point (though correct me if I'm wrong).  I find it hard to believe that one needs to insult and curse and thrash at something just to maintain a mental guard, it seems counterintuitive to me, though binding it makes sense.  I deal with untrustworthy entities on a regular basis, who would stab me in the back the first chance they got (and one did), but even they aren't as one-dimensional as the type of entity that is being described here, so take my words with a grain of salt.

EDIT: Bah, damn my slowness in replying!
« Last Edit: January 08, 2008, 08:38:36 PM by Watchtower »
"For no matter how holy works may be, they do not make us holy because we do them, but in so far as we within ourselves are as we should be, we make holy all that we do, whether it be eating, or sleeping, or working, or what it may."

-Eckhart von Hochheim

January 08, 2008, 08:37:51 PM
Reply #36

Saer

  • Veritas Furniture

  • Offline
  • ****

  • 480
  • Karma:
    3
    • View Profile
It pertains to what I said, but I disagree with it. A Divine status should be one of authority and severity when needed, but not insults and curses.

~Steve

I have spoke of no such thing as curses or insults. Divine status is of authority, which is in relation to necessity and consciousness in God.
As you love your own body, so regard everyone as equal to your own body. When the Supreme Experience supervenes, everyone's service is revealed as one's own service. Call it a bird, an insect, an animal or a man, call it by any name you please, one serves one's own Self in every one of them. ~ Ma

January 08, 2008, 08:39:06 PM
Reply #37

ShadowStriker

  • A Familiar Feature

  • Offline
  • ***
  • Regular Member

  • 228
  • Karma:
    0
  • Personal Text
    All Around WTF
    • View Profile
yikes, just know what you're dealing with mang, dont want yourself to be dragged into another verse
The Strong Take From the Weak, The Smart Take From The Strong, The Quick Take From The Smart, And The Weak Rise Up Against Them All

January 09, 2008, 11:04:52 AM
Reply #38

Veos

  • Teacher Emeritus
  • Veritas Furniture

  • Offline
  • *****

  • 473
  • Karma:
    44
    • View Profile
Steve, do you presume that Christ and his apostles just asked the demon to politely leave the host?  No.  They "command" the demon out.  They don't "ask" the demon to leave.  This is an ample demonstration of the mind-set that is needed for working with Demons.  They are treated in a manner so that they have no choices to make.  You become the sole authority.  Perhaps the best biblical example is the possessed man of Gadarenese in Mark 5:2-13, the famous "I am Legion for we are Many" incident.  The image painted is that of a begging demonic being pleading for mercy that Christ not torment them (which implies he had done such before!).  Finally after a great deal of begging (which also implies they had to convince Christ NOT to torment them for it says "and they besought him much that he would not send them out of the country").  He then relents a little, or so it seems, and instead sends them to just as same a fate by driving them into a bunch of swine (a far fall from a human host!) and then driving them into the ocean to drown to death.  Exorcism Rites follow the same guidelines in as much that the demon is dealt with for what it is, a Demon, and then cursed and bound in the name of Christ to be driven from the host.  It says everywhere in the Bible that the demons aren't just commanded but are even "rebuked". 

   If these divine men were able to do such things without lowering themselves spiritually, why should you believe a magician would be an exception to this?  Within the Circle The Adept is God, Without the Circle the Adept is God.  How then is God to be brought down in his dealings with a demon?  In the Circle the Magician stands as the voice and authority of God to all those who he would call before him, because the Circle is the Holy Ground upon which the Magician exalts his mind to a reflection of Divine Will. 

   Still, the easiest and most recommended route of dealing with demons is simple......Don't!     
Soham Sivoham Aham Brahma Asmi Mahavakya
Suddha satchitananda purna parabrahma
Chidananda Rupa Sivoham Sivoham

January 10, 2008, 07:33:43 AM
Reply #39

Steve

  • Posts By Osmosis

  • Offline
  • *****

  • 3685
  • Karma:
    139
    • View Profile
"Steve, do you presume that Christ and his apostles just asked the demon to politely leave the host?  No.  They "command" the demon out.  They don't "ask" the demon to leave."
*sigh* You know, this is really getting annoying. I'm not jumping to the extreme opposite of what you're saying, I'm saying that you being on the extreme side that you're on is wrong and that you should go back towards a balance point. I did not dispute the idea of Authority or commanding, what I disputed was the desire to treat the demon like garbage. A person in authority should prove themselves worthwhile to have that authority by not abusing either the authority or the people under them.



But, if we're going to talk about what the bible says, let's quote it properly so everyone can judge for themselves:

Matthew 8
The Healing of Two Demon-possessed Men
 28When he arrived at the other side in the region of the Gadarenes,[d] two demon-possessed men coming from the tombs met him. They were so violent that no one could pass that way. 29"What do you want with us, Son of God?" they shouted. "Have you come here to torture us before the appointed time?"

 30Some distance from them a large herd of pigs was feeding. 31The demons begged Jesus, "If you drive us out, send us into the herd of pigs."

 32He said to them, "Go!" So they came out and went into the pigs, and the whole herd rushed down the steep bank into the lake and died in the water. 33Those tending the pigs ran off, went into the town and reported all this, including what had happened to the demon-possessed men. 34Then the whole town went out to meet Jesus. And when they saw him, they pleaded with him to leave their region.
Matthew 8:28 Some manuscripts Gergesenes; others Gerasenes


Mark 5
The Healing of a Demon-possessed Man
 1They went across the lake to the region of the Gerasenes.[a] 2When Jesus got out of the boat, a man with an evil(b) spirit came from the tombs to meet him. 3This man lived in the tombs, and no one could bind him any more, not even with a chain. 4For he had often been chained hand and foot, but he tore the chains apart and broke the irons on his feet. No one was strong enough to subdue him. 5Night and day among the tombs and in the hills he would cry out and cut himself with stones.

 6When he saw Jesus from a distance, he ran and fell on his knees in front of him. 7He shouted at the top of his voice, "What do you want with me, Jesus, Son of the Most High God? Swear to God that you won't torture me!" 8For Jesus had said to him, "Come out of this man, you evil spirit!"

 9Then Jesus asked him, "What is your name?"

   "My name is Legion," he replied, "for we are many." 10And he begged Jesus again and again not to send them out of the area.

 11A large herd of pigs was feeding on the nearby hillside. 12The demons begged Jesus, "Send us among the pigs; allow us to go into them." 13He gave them permission, and the evil spirits came out and went into the pigs. The herd, about two thousand in number, rushed down the steep bank into the lake and were drowned.

 14Those tending the pigs ran off and reported this in the town and countryside, and the people went out to see what had happened. 15When they came to Jesus, they saw the man who had been possessed by the legion of demons, sitting there, dressed and in his right mind; and they were afraid. 16Those who had seen it told the people what had happened to the demon-possessed man—and told about the pigs as well. 17Then the people began to plead with Jesus to leave their region.

 18As Jesus was getting into the boat, the man who had been demon-possessed begged to go with him. 19Jesus did not let him, but said, "Go home to your family and tell them how much the Lord has done for you, and how he has had mercy on you." 20So the man went away and began to tell in the Decapolis[c]how much Jesus had done for him. And all the people were amazed.
Mark 5:1 Some manuscripts Gadarenes; other manuscripts Gergesenes
Mark 5:2 Greek unclean; also in verses 8 and 13
Mark 5:20 That is, the Ten Cities


Luke 8
The Healing of a Demon-possessed Man
 26They sailed to the region of the Gerasenes,(b) which is across the lake from Galilee. 27When Jesus stepped ashore, he was met by a demon-possessed man from the town. For a long time this man had not worn clothes or lived in a house, but had lived in the tombs. 28When he saw Jesus, he cried out and fell at his feet, shouting at the top of his voice, "What do you want with me, Jesus, Son of the Most High God? I beg you, don't torture me!" 29For Jesus had commanded the evil[c] spirit to come out of the man. Many times it had seized him, and though he was chained hand and foot and kept under guard, he had broken his chains and had been driven by the demon into solitary places.

 30Jesus asked him, "What is your name?"

   "Legion," he replied, because many demons had gone into him. 31And they begged him repeatedly not to order them to go into the Abyss.

 32A large herd of pigs was feeding there on the hillside. The demons begged Jesus to let them go into them, and he gave them permission. 33When the demons came out of the man, they went into the pigs, and the herd rushed down the steep bank into the lake and was drowned.

 34When those tending the pigs saw what had happened, they ran off and reported this in the town and countryside, 35and the people went out to see what had happened. When they came to Jesus, they found the man from whom the demons had gone out, sitting at Jesus' feet, dressed and in his right mind; and they were afraid. 36Those who had seen it told the people how the demon-possessed man had been cured. 37Then all the people of the region of the Gerasenes asked Jesus to leave them, because they were overcome with fear. So he got into the boat and left.

 38The man from whom the demons had gone out begged to go with him, but Jesus sent him away, saying, 39"Return home and tell how much God has done for you." So the man went away and told all over town how much Jesus had done for him.
Luke 8:26 Some manuscripts Gadarenes; other manuscripts Gergesenes; also in verse 37
Luke 8:29 Greek unclean



Notes:
Now, first point I see that is different from your post is that the demons say in Matthew "Have you come here to torture us before the appointed time?" This part is left out of the Luke and Mark versions and gives an alternate reason for why the demon was afraid, apart from your conclusion that it implies he has tortured them before.

Next, Luke gives another altenate explaination as to why the Demons begged "much" to be cast into the pigs, so that they wouldn't have to go to the Abyss instead. Again, nothing to do with Jesus torturing them, and in fact this would have been an act of mercy on Jesus' part, to allow them to live on Earth with the capability of tormenting people more rather than being put into a cage and tortured as they evidently know they will eventually be.

Next, Jesus did not drive them into the ocean to drown, they did that themselves.

As for rebuking, was not even Peter Simon rebuked by Jesus? Rebuking is not such a bad thing as torture and insulting.

Again, since you don't seem to get it, my point is that you, Veos, said that one should curse and insult a demon (or rather, brought up the point that "there is a reason why" old grimoires say to do such a thing), which goes beyond binding and commanding and even rebuking.

~Steve
Mastery does not occur when you've performed a feat once or twice. Instead, it comes after years of training, when you realize that you no longer notice when you're performing a feat which used to require so much effort. Even walking takes years of training for a human: why not everything else?

January 10, 2008, 04:35:19 PM
Reply #40

Veos

  • Teacher Emeritus
  • Veritas Furniture

  • Offline
  • *****

  • 473
  • Karma:
    44
    • View Profile
Correct.  Thank you for the extra insight into the bible quotes.  Ultimately I suppose it lies on experience and practice.  So far, my practice and that of hundreds of other magicians throughout the ages has shown that a demon must be treated in a certain manner, and that the magician's equilibrium is not effected at all by this. 
Soham Sivoham Aham Brahma Asmi Mahavakya
Suddha satchitananda purna parabrahma
Chidananda Rupa Sivoham Sivoham

January 11, 2008, 06:28:50 PM
Reply #41

MikeWho

  • A Familiar Feature

  • Offline
  • ***
  • Greenhorn

  • 213
  • Karma:
    1
  • Personal Text
    Ani otseh ha-orad
    • View Profile
I am under the impression that a demon has a much deeper insight into what is right and wrong, far more so than what a human may.. which is also making a human subject to manipulation, a little more easier...

Steve.. did I misunderstand that you are implying that demons may be trained?

Also, I am a lacking understanding in this whole topic... in the scenario of Enoch... (please forgive me for not having direct verses as this is from memory)

That Enoch spoke with the fallen angels, which pleaded and begged him to speak with the Father, so that he may have mercy on them, and show his forgiveness...

However, when Enoch went to the Father with their request,, the Father became even more spiteful towards them (my understanding) saying to Enoch that "They were still in the wrong, because they are begging and pleading for forgiveness and mercy, rather than praying for all of manking to be shown forgiveness and mercy...."

This quote from the Father was the most interesting to me, as it shows that the Demons were not really sorry, but just did not want the wrath.... assuming that they were sorry that they were caught.... rather..... the Father, understanding a deeper point..... that they were still unforgivable, as their minds were not occupied with the salvation of manking, rather the salvation of their own....

January 15, 2008, 09:41:24 AM
Reply #42

Raitaro

  • Posts By Osmosis

  • Offline
  • *****

  • 2151
  • Karma:
    0
  • Personal Text
    The Knight of Wands
    • View Profile
Don't reason with it. Don't argue wtih it. Just dominate it.
The IneptInitiate
http://xkcd.com/303/
http://xkcd.com/123/

I got a hot girl and the coolest band I know. I gotta bad habbit of smoking before the show.
I got music I got friends I trust and love. I get into a lot of fights and now my knuckles are all fucked up.....

January 15, 2008, 04:42:58 PM
Reply #43

majikasm

  • New Member

  • Offline
  • *

  • 9
  • Karma:
    0
    • View Profile
Hello darkcandle
Approach:

1. Treating the demon with respect and honor
2. Chanting name of demon, visual focus on sigil
3. Incensing sigil with fragrance of plant listed with demon's planet
4. Daily thanks for past favors
5. Placing sigil under pillow at night
6. Offering wine, fresh plant listed with demon's planet, and water on a plain altar

Environmental observations:
1. A sweet smell, at times overpowering, comes and goes
2. Ripples through the air, like something moving through water
3. Pockets of what appears to be heat vapor as the type you see rising from hot objects like pavement, in midair moving and fading away
4. Candles rising and crackling noises during meditation
5. Crackling noises or popping in the air without candles lit

Communication Methods From Demon:
1. All through dreams, information given to me beyond my wildest dreams, dream images range from obvious to heavy symbolism

~~~~~~~~Darkcandle...I applaud you for your successes...after all...someone's magic is only as good as their successes...........With a few personal changes, the outline you've posted is basically how I do things too....I hope this doesn't get me into trouble here...but I've found (speaking strictly for myself)...that Dee's theory was flawed...and so, his 'method' was also flawed.. impractical......workable and useable yes!...but impractical.............
 I've replaced the rigidity of Goetia with the less formal,more relaxed Shadow Guild based ritual style and incorporarted that with (hopefully)the correct lunar phases and other considerations and an astral/dream manifestation is almost always likely to occur. I've had a few good successes myself Darkcandle...



Rock'n with 8 Pink Behemoths :elephant: :elephant: :elephant: :elephant: :elephant: :elephant: :elephant: :elephant:

January 16, 2008, 07:26:21 AM
Reply #44

Raitaro

  • Posts By Osmosis

  • Offline
  • *****

  • 2151
  • Karma:
    0
  • Personal Text
    The Knight of Wands
    • View Profile
Do you mind describing a few of these successes?
The IneptInitiate
http://xkcd.com/303/
http://xkcd.com/123/

I got a hot girl and the coolest band I know. I gotta bad habbit of smoking before the show.
I got music I got friends I trust and love. I get into a lot of fights and now my knuckles are all fucked up.....