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Body Energy Arts / Re: Believing in Vitalism and Animism is like being a Flat Earther
« Last post by kobok on August 08, 2018, 07:02:37 PM »
Then that implies vitalism is wrong, which is my conclusion. I am not quite sure why you are disagreeing with me. No, practicing whatever you want to practice does not interfere with your ability to take Aspirin and have it work; however, the ability for it to be made to be taken disputes vitalism. By the way, this is why you have zero credibility with me.

Did you notice that not a single person here so far defended vitalism?  In fact people only repeatedly told you that vitalism has nothing at all to do with the practices in use, and some even explicitly agreed with you that vitalism is wrong.

Where YOU are wrong is in concluding that a problem with the philosophies of vitalism implies a problem with chi.  Your connection of these two, which I quoted from the first post, is simply wrong.  And therefore your deduction that a disproof of a conclusion of vitalism discredits chi, when these are not associated and are models from completely different cultures, is wrong.

Do you have the courage appropriate to a scientific mind to admit you made a mistake in connecting these two concepts here?

Or are you more interested in trying to pretend you are correct?
Body Energy Arts / Re: Believing in Vitalism and Animism is like being a Flat Earther
« Last post by kobok on August 08, 2018, 06:49:52 PM »
A corollary of organic chemistry and the rejection of vitalism is that it is possible to synthesize Asprin where analogs to that can be derived from white willow bark. If vitalism were true, which we know it is not, then that should not be possible. The form of my statement was intentionally structured in accordance with #checkmateathiest.

I will stipulate aspirin can be manufactured in this manner.  It is not in dispute.

Your sentences make no coherent point other than throwing in a random hashtag.  I have doubts that it will make sense even with an explanation because the premise is very tenuous, but if you want them to make sense you will have to try an actual explanation.
Body Energy Arts / Re: Believing in Vitalism and Animism is like being a Flat Earther
« Last post by kobok on August 08, 2018, 06:33:39 PM »
If you are one of these people who believes in chi, prana, ki, or whatever, just know you are just as foolish as people who believe the Earth is flat

Usage of chi / ki is not equivalent to a belief in vitalism, therefore this entire thread is based on a serious misconception by virtue of its first post being fallacious.

Yes, there exist some users of chi or ki that subscribe to vitalism, but it is by no means standard.  In fact the intrinsic association of these two approaches is quite questionable considering that chi/ki practices originated in the cultures of eastern Asia, while the philosophy of vitalism originated in an area encompassing Europe and northern Africa.  While I see that wikipedia currently connects these two, that more draws into question the culturally naive level of understanding of the editors of wikipedia than the modern practices of chi/ki/qi.

Going forward I will simply use the spelling "chi" for this post, since as discussed repeatedly, chi, ki, and qi are simply various romanized spellings of a common concept.  As for what is actually true about chi culture, the practices in common use vary wildly as they are passed along with the same diversity as many other spiritual or religious practices.  The most common trend among practitioners in this area is to associate chi as being a metaphysical energy with an association with core biological processes, such as blood vessels, nerves, muscular motion, and so forth.  For modern practitioners this does not necessarily come with any disbelief in modern biology, and therefore is not falsified by throwing basic biological facts at it.  Instead, the modern understanding of chi is usually regarded by modern practitioners as supplemental to biology.  Chi in modern practices is therefore most commonly regarded as a metaphysical energy that mirrors or allows regulation of scientifically understood biological practices.

If you are going to aggressively call people "foolish" for making use of a practice, then in the future I suggest attempting to better understand the scope of the practices you are actually talking about.  In this particular instance it does not appear that you took the time to do so.

If ki is real, then explain Asprin.

Since you saw fit to bold this ridiculous sentence, I will highlight it for a reply.  I would hope given my above comments about the actual relationship with modern understandings of chi, you can see how this is ridiculous.  There is nothing about chi which contradicts the functionality of aspirin.  As is obvious by my avatar here I prefer a psi approach, but modern practitioners of chi, such as the ones I studied under, are perfectly happy to take modern pain killers, and find no contradiction in this because the viewpoints intrinsically do not contradict.  If this is surprising to you then it is your misunderstanding.
Body Energy Arts / Re: Believing in Vitalism and Animism is like being a Flat Earther
« Last post by mystic on August 08, 2018, 06:15:23 PM »
Rayn, I read your post here. And it fails for a few reasons. Don't get me wrong, it is an amazing testimonial to drive traffic to your page (220 views translates to about 220+ hits of traffic which isn't bad for a few occult articles), but as I said multiple times to you, it's rather reductionistic in nature. That isn't to demerit reductionism, it has led to Microbiology and Molecular Cell Biology (two things in which I take very dear). However, the critical problem with your approach is manifold:

I can't take this post seriously, because you do not know what you are talking about. Reductionist refers to something bottom-up. Holistic refers to top-down. The more abstract something is, the more holistic it is and the less reductionist it is. Biology is abstract; therefore, it is not reductionist. Why? Well, Biology is an abstraction of the underlying Physics and Chemistry. In order for it to make sense, you kind of sort of have view it holistically, anyway. Induction is "technically" top-up unlike say recursion; however, you get a generalization that is supposed to work instead of focusing on particular cases. As an engineer, we always start from top-down or we implement things from general to more specific and we abstract complex things so we can deal with them. In my experience, only people who don't work as engineers or scientists apply a blanket label of reductionist to such things because those that do understand there is hell of a lot of abstraction involved.

Basic of the basic dude

I suppose since you don't agree with the prevailing scientific community, I can't take your post(s) seriously. Which sheer irony uses reductionism as a means to dismiss a cultural concept. Which btw has been a limitation of western philosophy for decades.

Post deleted. Since Rayn deleted all of his. There was no context to it left.
Body Energy Arts / Re: Believing in Vitalism and Animism is like being a Flat Earther
« Last post by mystic on August 08, 2018, 05:29:36 PM »
What a thread

A few comments here based on my experiences for the past few years. I remember asking one of my very first teachers in China, well what is Qi, what is Jing, what is Shen, and so on and so on. And the response

Not important. Just practice

I didn't understand the response of practice. Thinking on it, the answer was sublime and often something I tell people when they ask. There's a lot of reasons, but in the Chan traditions that adhere to the Quanzhen sect of Daoism, a large emphasis is placed on practice beyond ontology. Discussion of ontology are fine, in a scholastic arena, but in a practical arena, they're meaningless. What measures a student's progress isn't necessarily what you know, it is a highly subjective measurement of some teacher (or older student) to identify if your practice is right. I've been through a lot of the systems in Asia/India and that seems to be the case.

Subjectivity is critical in the Quanzhen sect. It identifies progress through several different means based on a repeated cultural method that is passed down for several years. I have seen similar methodology in other discipline and cultures (obviously with different basic explanations, but the intent is still the same). Practice.

Rayn, I read your post here. And it fails for a few reasons. Don't get me wrong, it is an amazing testimonial to drive traffic to your page (220 views translates to about 220+ hits of traffic which isn't bad for a few occult articles), but as I said multiple times to you, it's rather reductionistic in nature. That isn't to demerit reductionism, it has led to Microbiology and Molecular Cell Biology (two things in which I take very dear). However, the critical problem with your approach is manifold:

  • There's a lot of traditions that emphasize a core "energetic" belief. To seemingly place the core energetic belief as the cornerstone of the belief is a foolish endeavor. It is a description of a natural phenomenon through the lens of a different culture. In this, there's a lot of overlap of concepts, but it is only to describe the nature of reality, not the nature of practice.
  • Your conceptualization of these concepts only adheres to really one model. There's a lot of models here. Veritas utilizes the modern perspectives of Chinese philosophy that propagated after the Maoist revolution in China. In this, emphasis is placed on combining scientific method and sparse traditional leanings of health through mostly acupuncture and the three historical practical classics. There are several issues with the approach even in the Chinese philosophical community because there's limits to the approach.
  • Let's assume something for a moment - your assertion is right. Vitalism is false. Absolutely! From the lens of the Mahayana and Therevada traditions of Buddhism, that's absolutely correct. However, does that posit that the siddhis gained through practice of that which is false a bad thing? The entire world is false. Your perspective is that of occult which is patently false. The image of Jesus that nuns and monks pray to who experience a true awakening experience with their rooms burned from the power of their mind even though the image of Jesus is fake - should that be a detractor? Absolutely not.

The list is rather minor of my experiences. But at the end of the day, your focus is on such a tiny bit of the ocean through a reductionist lens, it's almost disappointing. Albeit it is wonderful traffic to your page ;)

All of that said, it is an interesting question. What if everything we practiced is fake? Is there a point?

There's a point. The point of focus and the explanation of an individual cultures' reality often is conflated since it is used to explain natural phenomenon. However, the critical point is that whilst the cultural explanations of reality are somewhat moot, the experience gained from right practice is not. Now obviously, there's myriad practices under the sun which are fake that sadly build on our level of experience. But your notion throws the baby out with the bath water in an argument that makes no sense.

Remember, the goal of practice isn't to gain Siddhis or focus on dan tians and chakras. The point is to use these abstract conceptualizations created by the mind to unlock the "true mind" and ultimately your true nature.

Let's not muddy the waters with epistemology
Post deleted. It was in response to a provocative, inflammatory, racist, hatred filled response that Rayn used to attack me, to be able to get a response from me in which he could label me delusional, crazy, and a liar. He then deleted the post. This is trolling and broke multiple Veritas rules.

Be well everyone.
Looks like a mod cleanup happened to Rayns last post that the above reply was to. I am sorry for causing you guys (or gals) trouble- again- and apologize. I would hope my first post on this account did not break any rules and can stand.

Thank you.

In debate circles in the old days, debate team in a high school, or 60s era politics, you would have instantly lost this debate, because you resorted to attacking my character, committed those logical fallacies (and maybe more- though anyone who read my argument could likely find a few).
You probably skimmed my post, and had decided from the beginning (I made it quite obvious who I was to anyone who has been a member of this site for more than 4 years) that you had won. Instead of calmly replying to my argument, you simply chose emotional appeal, to attack my character, so as not to have to formulate a coherent, compelling counter argument. I don't believe I ever personally insulted you nor did I mention your race, ethnicity, gender orientation or anything about you like that, let alone insult you personally- which you just did to me personally, and showed no empathy or concern for me or mentally ill people (e.g. discriminating against me, mocking my beliefs because I have a mental illness.), on top of that you brought up me race and were essentially racist towards me in a hatred-filled rant.

Lenape? Are YOU Indian (some Natives actually don't mind that pronoun and many, many I met through my father in the 90s self-identified that way.) In fact, I am 1/8th Native, Mohawk, Iroquois tribe (Kaniekehaka in our Native language- which I learned when living on the Akwesasne Mohawk Reserve, the Rez, in the early 90s, with my father. At the Akwesasne Freedom School, of which he was the principal, where the only language allowed to be spoken was Mohawk, or Kanienkeh, no English. If I needed to use the restroom I had to ask in Mohawk- only.)

My dad was a published Native author- Joel Monture- he gave and attended talks at Cornell- and he had a Master's Degree in Creative Writing from Dartmouth College (That's Ivy League), and his bachelors from Bennington College, private, the most expensive school in the country. His parents paid for that (rich Grandpa). Dartmouth was a free ride because he was Indian. Read anout their history... Wikipedia is great.

He has 4 published novels, and made innumerous highly authentic pipebags, tobacco pouches, all beaded, that he took to Native arts shows. I saw him come home with blue ribbon after blue ribbon, all 1st place, best of show etc. He was an editor of a magazine called Multicultural Review.

I have pictures of me when young in full Native regalia of my tribe- ribbon shirt, Kustoweh, moccasins, loincloth. Further I am directly descended from Mohawk War Chief, Joseph Brant, who allied with the British Empire during the Rev War. He led 4 of the 6 (extremely powerful) Nations of the Iroquois League to fight against the American colonists and even George Washington. He sailed to England and met King George III *the leader of the British Empire* during that time. He refused to bow or prostrate before him (others would have been killed for that then!) and stated:

"I bow to no man, for I am considered a Prince among my own people. But I will gladly shake your hand."- Theyendenegea Capt. Joseph Brant, my Grandfather.

I know the Ohnkwehonweneha- the Native way. I know who I am. Others from this site knew these facts about me. Facts.

But you pulled a race card. There are 3500 fluent Mohawk speakers remaining (I am not fluent lol). There are like 120 million Japanese speakers, mostly on the mainland. And way way more Mandarin and Camtonese speakers. Simple choice, though I am Mohawk- I live very far from any reservation with Mohawk speakers. I would rather learn about other cultures I don't know about, or am interested in. The great melting pot rigjt? I just smh at people who base their ego on their race, sexual orientation, materialism etc as the kids now say, "so basic". (though I grapple with that last one materialism myself, I am finally beginning to learn). An admirable trait to be open enough to and willing to learn about culture's other than ones own. I would rather learn a language I would actually have a chance of possibly using. And again I never charged money for my teachings or study group, I worked sometimes 18 hrs straight without pay. In Sanskrit it is called Seva. Though I did not always live up to that ideal or the philosophy it embodies, I did the work for not. a. single. cent. ever. And it helped many people.

I don't know your political orientation but you have no right to bring up my race. Just as I didn't yours. Nor have I mentioned your particular disability and will not until you utter it. Because I dont view posters, or people, based on that. And- you know full well I listen to rap of all eras and grew up in group homes and so forth, in the system, because  we were extremely poor. Around black (or African American or whatever pronoun you use- no disrespect) inner city youth. And at one point they accepted me so much and trusted me, they made me one of them, and put me in a street gang. A legit one. From inner city Milwaukee. Once I left it didn't mean much a d I would NEVER disrespect and flag it now.

I am culturally fluid... or I was, when I was social.

Last I checked this is America and we still have (though God knows how long....) some pretense of freedom, and some legit freedoms. And the last time I looked you did not need to be Chinese to be an accupunturist. Or a Qigong teacher. Or a Kungfu sifu. Or get a college degree in Asian studies, "sinology". Or study the Longmen Pai. Or read Dr. Yang Jing Ming and YMAA books.. which in my articles (which you probably havent read) and my study group introduction (which you probably havent read) I am forthcoming about and state outright. There is also something called wikipedia but that didnt exist in 2004 or at least, did not (and still doesn't) provide free instruction in these things, nevermind answering questions and actually hping people with posts instead of posting "This is why Rayn is right" 10000 different ways for 8 years straight, or whenever you joined.

I will pray for you and send good thoughts your way, when I can. I hope you can learn to let go of your anger. And I even told you and showed you: I am supportive of your lifestyle, culture and ethnicity. I am an extremely liberal Democrat. I am anti authoritarian. But I will not be bullied, and if you and other people of your ethnicity *treat* your SYMPATHIZERS this way... I don't know how many regular white people will support you. Even the liberals and even the Democrat-Socialists (of which I am not- but support extensive "welfare state" (b/s label) for poor people, will not tolerate that treatment... but thats a blanket generalization on my part. Yet I am not wholly white am I....welfare like we had under Clinton. My family would have been homeless without all that.

Edit: added something.

Peace be with you, let your heart heal "Grasping onto anger is like clutching a hot coal" - Buddha
Post simply deleted since the point was was made by myself and others, I was tired, and no one here I know (besides mystic who I can talk to in emails) has really expressed any concern for what I'm going through in my life. I did say I didn't want pity or sympathy or anything though. Silver_Archer did express sympathy and compassion to me  last year in the chat room. However, based on my behavior to the staff members in the past (as well as others) it is perfectly within reason to expect considering my long history of abhorrent behavior on this site. So...

I was going to let it stand but considering there is now no context to any of it since Rayn is a troll imo and deleted all of his posts.

Be well.

p.s. I left because of that very behavior I mentioned and it not aligning with what I was "teaching".

The user formerly known as "Koujiryuu"
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