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Main Hall / Re: My oh my we are a sad little place
« Last post by Rayn on Yesterday at 10:39:31 PM »
Either way, your situation is a common one. I personally think a huge part of the problem is the state of Western esoteric tradition - for historical reasons, it's just too watered down, too much has been lost or distorted or corrupted or mashed together with other things that just aren't compatible. There's just not enough left to serve as a viable system of development, which is why even the allegedly "successful" Western magicians almost universally supplement their training heavily with Eastern practices.

I had similar frustration when I first started studying this stuff, but eventually  I decided to cut the bullshit and go to the source, and I only wish I'd done so sooner. I found teachers who had achieved the things I want to achieve, and now I study under them, just as you would with any other human endeavour. It requires a lot more initial investment than downloading a few dozen PDF's and trying to wing it by yourself, but there's a reason these systems of training have always thrived in situations where they are passed down through a direct lineage of teacher > student. Nobody would try to learn surgery or chemistry or any other serious pursuit using books downloaded off the internet (and nobody would trust them to practice it if they did), it's insane to think that magic or spiritual development are somehow the exception.

 And it bypasses the whole question of faith or belief and the whole stupid mess of trying to "prove that it's real" out of old grimoires or shitty newage books (or god forbid, websites like psipog), because any teacher worth studying under can demonstrate their attainment firsthand.

There are multiple flaws in the reasoning of your thinking. First off, Eastern practices do not exists in some void. Taoist, Buddhists, Vedic, Hindu, so on and so forth ideologies are culturally dominant in Eastern countries, right? Well, what is the frequency of people in those countries who historically and currently have any a large amount of say psychic ability? Not many. The reason why observable instances of psychic abilities large enough to be seen without analysis  is so hard to believe is because it is so rare. If it were not, then it would be a common and familiar experience endemic to human society. But it is not! The same could be said for Western religion and spirituality. Inductively, this means there is no reason to think that supplementing your practices with Eastern ones will have any effect, because the frequency of people who actually have experiences that are large enough to observe without analysis is just about the same for either or. The majority of people on this planet are religious or spiritual in some shape or form; however, most people aren't moving objects around that can be seen without analysis, which is why people have a hard time believing that someone can make an object levitate.

Secondly, when you speak of a "lineage", you are speaking of how things are taught to people and how those things are further taught. You are speaking of a culture, essentially. Something is not true by virtue of having a particular culture. Abstractly, you can say how people learn things on line is indicative of a culture the same way you are learning where there is a difference in pedagogy and whether or not something is vetted. Besides cultural differences, though, it seems as if you are making an assumption that one culture is more likely to give results than another based on what appears to be age and how closely it matches up to some arbitrarily proposed cannon of beliefs. Think of technology. Technology is not just the end result, but it is also the ideas, concepts, and techniques taught to people to come up with that technology. This means there is a cultural component to it where current technology is very effective where those disciplines are relatively new.

This boils down to pretty much there being no logical reason, based on evidence, to think you will get better results if you supplemented or switched to Eastern practices and there is no logical reason to think one culture is more effective than another based on its age. Since culture is something that is taught and learned, all cultures technically have a lineage.
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Main Hall / Re: My oh my we are a sad little place
« Last post by Kemetin on Yesterday at 06:35:52 PM »
I have been at this stuff since roughly 1994 and I never got that "Holy Shit this is real" moment. I don't know how some people do it. You'd figure that with all the time, effort, and energy that I've spent towards this. I would have something that would anchor the validity of it. Sure I could look back and what I went through a few years ago. Needing money for something unfortunate. Getting it and the results being a minimum of what I had expect. Sure I could say that it was magick that made it happen. But that just the results mundane stuff. You've got people claiming to have been visited by gods and demons, rampant psychokinesis. That shit just never happened to me. Sure I've got a history of weirdness, but that proof positive moment, never came. Unfortunately or fortunately I can reduce all my experiences to common psychological explanations. So it feels like a massive waste of time.

What were you practising for all those years?

Either way, your situation is a common one. I personally think a huge part of the problem is the state of Western esoteric tradition - for historical reasons, it's just too watered down, too much has been lost or distorted or corrupted or mashed together with other things that just aren't compatible. There's just not enough left to serve as a viable system of development, which is why even the allegedly "successful" Western magicians almost universally supplement their training heavily with Eastern practices.

I had similar frustration when I first started studying this stuff, but eventually  I decided to cut the bullshit and go to the source, and I only wish I'd done so sooner. I found teachers who had achieved the things I want to achieve, and now I study under them, just as you would with any other human endeavour. It requires a lot more initial investment than downloading a few dozen PDF's and trying to wing it by yourself, but there's a reason these systems of training have always thrived in situations where they are passed down through a direct lineage of teacher > student. Nobody would try to learn surgery or chemistry or any other serious pursuit using books downloaded off the internet (and nobody would trust them to practice it if they did), it's insane to think that magic or spiritual development are somehow the exception.

 And it bypasses the whole question of faith or belief and the whole stupid mess of trying to "prove that it's real" out of old grimoires or shitty newage books (or god forbid, websites like psipog), because any teacher worth studying under can demonstrate their attainment firsthand.

I've learned and progressed more in a year of direct training under competent teachers than I did in all of the time I wasted floundering around under the hacks who cling to the Western tradition so they can take advantage of desperate seekers who have a preconceived notion of what their path should look like, or the time I wasted messing around with books before that.

These days I personally lean towards thinking that we need to recognise a lost cause for what it is, and cut off the rotting branch so something new can grow, but that's just me.
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Magick / Re: Help needed?
« Last post by evild00d on Yesterday at 09:41:08 AM »
he "knows" how to heal ppl with meditation,the basics steps,I posted above can be clearing "unwanted" energy in his body using meditation as well,you don't really need to "find your soul".
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Magick / Re: Help needed?
« Last post by Akenu on September 20, 2017, 12:40:32 PM »
hi,

probably you need grounding
http://forums.vsociety.net/index.php/topic,11138.0.html
excerpts above from the link

Grounding

Grounding is the act of 'recycling' impure energy on all planes of existence around oneself.  The process requires a quieted mind, so begin grounding with focal meditation. Acts of energy require intent as much as kinesis, so form a solid intent to cleanse the energy surrounding you on all planes. Locate a focal point within the soul and actualize this intent, dispelling all of the impurities, virtues, and preconceived concepts saturating the energy. Be thorough, and make sure the energy is completely pure and clean on all planes. The process may be repeated several times to ensure cleanliness, but try to be very deep and thorough about it.


That process is based on psionics and there are preliminary steps like "finding your soul". In other words, I do not think this can be useful right off the bat.
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Magick / Re: Help needed?
« Last post by evild00d on September 20, 2017, 02:58:46 AM »
hi,

probably you need grounding
http://forums.vsociety.net/index.php/topic,11138.0.html
excerpts above from the link

Grounding

Grounding is the act of 'recycling' impure energy on all planes of existence around oneself.  The process requires a quieted mind, so begin grounding with focal meditation. Acts of energy require intent as much as kinesis, so form a solid intent to cleanse the energy surrounding you on all planes. Locate a focal point within the soul and actualize this intent, dispelling all of the impurities, virtues, and preconceived concepts saturating the energy. Be thorough, and make sure the energy is completely pure and clean on all planes. The process may be repeated several times to ensure cleanliness, but try to be very deep and thorough about it.

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Main Hall / Re: My oh my we are a sad little place
« Last post by Hellblazer on September 19, 2017, 03:17:19 AM »
And the only thing my interest in the occult lead me to was psychology. How the mind works, how beliefs affect us. That's why I call magick a collection of self-help techniques. Because that's what it really looks like. A series of magical affirmations performed through self-hypnosis. There are no instant results. There are progressive results. And inner working are always the best. So no I do not have problem with what people do. I think it's the exaggerated claims that urk me so much. Casting a spell to find love will change you first, and in turn you will change the things around you.  That is how I see it. It all starts from within. That I get. In a way I get the bad ass appeal of "summoning a demon". It's an ego trip. Makes you feels strong or powerful. But unless you act nothing changes. A young witch cursing her ex-boyfriend through some simple spell might just me a mental release of all her emotional pain, which can be therapeutic. This is the aspect I get. It's always why I can see personal rituals being way more "powerful" than by the book ones. It's a lot like using an affirmation you constructed every morning to get your head in the right place. You do this "ritual" each day and your day goes according or close to the mindset you tired to develop. All this to me is real and practical magick. Not the hocus pocus stuff.
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Main Hall / Re: My oh my we are a sad little place
« Last post by Rayn on September 18, 2017, 05:38:36 PM »
Anyway, yes, scientific evidence so far is not exactly breath-taking and if you remember, in the past I have mentioned also some miscalculations in the statistics, namely wrongly calculated z-score.

To be honest, everyone uses software for that, so I find a miscalculation unlikely. You can do z-test and t-test in Excel, actually. See this link:

How to Perform z-test Calculations in Excel

Believe it or not, the people I work with actually have forgotten a lot of their math. For example, a software I know a research technologists who does stuff with rheology in Research and Development uses is called Spartan, a modeling and computational chemistry software. It does Fourier transforms for him. He actually forgot how to do Fourier transforms. I discovered this when I had a conversation with him about something(I don't recall the specifics).

I don't recall there being computational miscalculations in the statistics in research I have seen. Your comment about z-scores also has no context to me. Z-scores are normally used to construct Z-test for hypothesis testing. For example, you typically see Z-test or T-test used with hypothesis testing to determine right-tail, left-tail, or two-tailed hypothesis testing, so are you saying there were miscalculations with that? What normally happens with errors with statistics concerning Z-test is that the sample used is too small. For example, you typically want to use a sample size of at least 30. If that is the case, then I believe you are actually referring to the p-value and not the z-score(if there is an issue with the z-score you end up with issues in constructing the test statistic in your hypothesis test that yields your p-value).

My criticism was that in the experimental designs concerning ESP, anomalous cognition, or whatever they call it, I have noticed that what constitutes a "success" is vague. By vague, I mean there is no cut off so to speak. This implies there is a lack of precision, essentially. I have noticed that the more abstract and complex the situation, the vaguer they get. For example, with testing hit or miss things with say Zener cards, there is really no vagueness; however, if you expand that to more complex and abstract things such as describing what is in a room such as with Remote Viewing, you sort of see that vagueness pop up. Whether or not it is successful or not sort of becomes intuitive versus being derived from analysis. Like looking at a sketch someone drew out and comparing it to a target to see if you can verify whether or not their Remote Viewing was successful is intuitive. Intuitive means can be used to corroborate analytical ones, but you really shouldn't just use it.   

So it feels like a massive waste of time.

My interests in metaphysical things framed the context of my interests in science. So, ironically, if I never researched these things, I would not be as well educated as I am. So, no, it has not been a massive wastes of my time especially seeing that it lead me to the love of my life. 
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Main Hall / Re: My oh my we are a sad little place
« Last post by Hellblazer on September 18, 2017, 04:14:41 PM »
I have been at this stuff since roughly 1994 and I never got that "Holy Shit this is real" moment. I don't know how some people do it. You'd figure that with all the time, effort, and energy that I've spent towards this. I would have something that would anchor the validity of it. Sure I could look back and what I went through a few years ago. Needing money for something unfortunate. Getting it and the results being a minimum of what I had expect. Sure I could say that it was magick that made it happen. But that just the results mundane stuff. You've got people claiming to have been visited by gods and demons, rampant psychokinesis. That shit just never happened to me. Sure I've got a history of weirdness, but that proof positive moment, never came. Unfortunately or fortunately I can reduce all my experiences to common psychological explanations. So it feels like a massive waste of time.
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Main Hall / Re: My oh my we are a sad little place
« Last post by delusionsofgranduer on September 18, 2017, 03:50:36 PM »
The initial reason I joined this website two years ago was to become a psion (someone should invent a less cringy term tbh).  My main motivation regarding learning psi was to prove to myself that there is some kind of objective spiritual/metaphysical feature to reality.  I wanted to basically prove the mainstream materialist reductionist worldview was wrong.  That we were more then just electrochemical reactions taking place in some blob of fat and meat.

After I was able to make the candle flame move according to my intentions consistently for the first time I was expecting a profound life changing experience.  I didn't really get that.  Sure I was able to move around a candle flame and sometimes affect a random number generator but all in all it was very underwhelming and useless.  I was expecting to be able to experience some profound spiritual awareness; everything would finally be crystal clear to me.  I think the moment I really stopped considering using psi for practical purposes was when I realized that my time and energy was probably better spent pursuing a practical path to my goals instead of something more esoteric. 

Honestly I don't really know you at all Hellblazer (by the way I love that comic series!), but maybe it would be beneficial to just put all this occult stuff behind you.  If according to you its just useless mystical masturbation; its probably better for you to just leave the occult scene entirely.  If you're angry for wasting all your time and effort on trying to make this stuff work, just focus on something more tangible.  And even if this stuff is just a pathetic form of role playing; that doesn't mean it's useless.  I'm sure there are some skills you've learned over the course of your time practicing magic which can be translated into more practical matters.  If nothing else, now it's easier for you to spot bullshit. :wink:

I understand your frustration and bitterness though.  When you work so hard trying to accomplish something and realize that you still fail, time and time again.  I don't think I'm very good at all that psi stuff to be honest.  It requires a sort of self confidence and mental focus which I don't really possess, especially considering how much more scatterbrained and doubtful I am then the average person.  For me, psi practice and focal meditation made me realize how flawed and lazy I really am. 

I'm trying to pick up psi again after all the chaos in my life settles down.  I want to help myself psychologically as well as practically  That's why I hope we can inject some more life into this site!  It's good motivation to help my lazy ass persevere through this practice.  :)
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Main Hall / Re: My oh my we are a sad little place
« Last post by Hellblazer on September 18, 2017, 03:19:32 PM »
Look I get the whole social and personal benefits of metaphysical practices. And I damn well understand the mind-body effects due to the placebo effect. What I'm getting at is that magick is not a cure all. It gets really old seeing request for love and/or money spell from lazy bastards who want something for free. Using a spell or sigil to change your subconscious beliefs which "bleed over" into your thoughts, feels, and actions. Sure no problem. Someone levitation, I'm highly skeptical of the "super power" aspect. Too many years and too many hits and misses. You have people joining the occult community with the idea that they will become a living god. :rolleyes:

Sorry no dice. And yes this is a lot of personal anger coming out. Perhaps I just need to vent my feelings towards to occult. Do I hate it? No. I hate what it is though. Not so much as someone praying to wtf-ever god/s/ess's they choose. I don't care. I'm pretty much an indifferent agnostic towards the spiritual, which I see as being more like Emotion. The psychological and emotional aspect of feeling like you've got some control in your life can be comforting, used to be to me as well. Then I realized quite harshly that magick, does not fix problems. It can change how you see things. Those subconscious programs. But nothing will just be instantly solved through it. Plus flinging curses at people doesn't do anything. There are so many explanations for what happens that magick just doesn't look like magick. It looks like self-help with more theatrics.

Yes I'm bitching. I've got this duel struggle of forgetting my past which was years of my life and moving on. Or I go back to it. I'm angry because I feel that I've wasted a shit ton of years on something that was in a way a dead end. I'm sure none of you level 99 mages have ever felt that way. So fuck me for feeling like I have no reason to exist anymore.
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