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Yes that makes sense. I'm still having trouble coming to terms what that means for me. Why blood specifically? It definitely seems so much stronger of a desire and intuneness with it that anything else ive experienced. It's so strange.
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Hello and Goodbye / Re: Hey there
« Last post by الظلام on September 13, 2018, 06:38:41 AM »
Hello there :P

Luckily for you, many of the magic articles here are influenced by or directly related to the principles within the kybalion. Have fun :wink:
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Hello and Goodbye / Hey there
« Last post by Neob91 on September 12, 2018, 12:30:40 AM »
Hey guys/gals ;-) My name is Andrzej, and I just yesterday stumbled upon these forums.

I have been moderately interested in the metaphysical ever since I was a teenager (I'm almost 27 now),
but I just couldn't get hold of the right resources, and I guess I didn't have the required patience.

I am happy to have found this place, because I can see that there is a lot of valuable information here.
I just finished reading the Kybalion, and have found it to be very illuminating.
I'm looking forward to reading more of what these forums have to offer!
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Magick / Re: The Subject of Pacts
« Last post by الظلام on September 11, 2018, 10:52:19 PM »
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Wait, fallen angels are actual beings? This opens up yet another rabbit hole to go down. Was the Fall a single event that happened in the distant past, or do angels fall all the time? Was there really a war in heaven, did the angels fall because they wouldn't bow down to man? Is Lucifer one of the fallen? Are the Nephilim real as well?

It would be best to ask straight from the mouth of those that were there, and evoke one :P
But fortunately, I had a fellow magician whom I trust tell me about an evoker that had done exactly that. He even shared his experience online on a forum like this one, though I don't know exactly where.
Anyways, according to him, Astaroth told him that initially the one you call Lucifer was an angel very close to what you call "god" or the Creator, and he also governed music for the Creator.
He was even one of the few to have actually seen the Creator manifest - not even most archangels have had that opportunity.
But, Lucifer grew jealous of something, what exactly, I can't quite remember.  But anyways, Astaroth describes Lucifer as being very charismatic, and he easily convinced many angels to rebel with him.
Now I don't know if there was some kind of war, or if it was more like simply walking out on your boss, but of course the end result I'm sure you are familiar with - Lucifer and those with him fell.
I hear many of the fallen regret their decision and wish to return, Astaroth included, but I'm not sure about Lucifer.

So anyways, yes the Fall is real to some degree, unless Astaroth is lying, which doesn't seem reasonable.
In regards to the Nephillim, and myth in general, I would say - there is probably truth to a lot of it, it just may or may not differ from how humans tell it.

And yes, I would think that Angels falling is more a multiple occasion thing, rather than just one single event. You've heard of the Watchers, right? They were separate from Lucifer's fall.

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I like the fluidity that different beings have according to your belief system

Mine is essentially little different than Bardon's, though their may be a few details we would argue about   :biggrin:

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It feels liberating to know that entities have the ability to shift their classification. In a way, it is very existentialist--the individual can create their own essence

Well it's mostly humans who have complicated things with their labels, stories, and lack of understanding  :P
All spirits are the same in essential structure, the only difference is what particular forces compose it.
And if you are familiar with the IIH or hermetic practice in general, than you should be familiar with the "soul mirrors" or the practice of developing the spirit to achieve equipoise or elemental equilibrium, and that whole practice capitalizes on the very fact that spirits can influence and change their spiritual structure.

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Do you consider yourself to be a Muslim? Your views don't seem very halal by mainstream standards, lol. And would the Jinn be classified as demons or elementals, or something else entirely?

Not quite. There are technical reasons which would prevent me from embracing Islam as a muslim, though I would consider myself a patron of it. I'm especially enthralled by it's Jihad aspect   :P
Regarding the Jinn, that depends, because it has many different cultural interpretations. But if we remove the cultural part, the jinn would actually encompass all spirits, including the malaa'ikah(angels), shayatin(demons), elementals, and even humans(which can be seen as a type of jinni which incarnates in a human body). The word, depending on where you ask, roughly can be used in the same sense as how we use "Spirit(s)".
Usually, like in the the Qur'an, however, it is used to refer to the more general spirits, which excludes shayatin, malaa'ikah, and humans. So in this sense, it may include elementals, gods, etc.

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I appreciate you answering all these questions, sorry if they seem annoying, I just enjoy absorbing and comparing information from many different systems.

Being inquisitive is something to be encouraged, not scolded. Don't worry  :wink:
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Magick / Re: The Subject of Pacts
« Last post by Sophocles on September 11, 2018, 09:25:43 PM »
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The reason I say that I am hesitant to define fallen angels as demons, is because I am not quite sure to what degree the Fallen embraced darkness. Now there is no doubt that they fell from grace and were perverted by ego and darkness, but I am not quite sure to what degree they all entirely "converted". They may or may not have retained some of their celestial composition. I'd also point out that they did not lose there celestial powers, they merely lost their "Angel status".


Wait, fallen angels are actual beings? This opens up yet another rabbit hole to go down. Was the Fall a single event that happened in the distant past, or do angels fall all the time? Was there really a war in heaven, did the angels fall because they wouldn't bow down to man? Is Lucifer one of the fallen? Are the Nephilim real as well?

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Yes, there is nothing stopping demons from becoming humans, and vice versa. And yes those that inhabit the celestial realms will eventually be no different than the angels which already inhabited those places. On top of that there will even be angels and demons which gain tetrapolarity but retain their purity and status, and will incarnate alongside "humans".

Spirits are constantly evolving on their own, shifting "classification", so the idea which have already been presented really aren't all that far fetched.
Elementals often gain another element - losing their elemental status, elementals are essentially just collections of elemental energy which gained intelligence in the first place, demons lose their demonhood by gaining a positive element, fallen angels lost their angel status by being corrupted by darkness and rebelling, animal spirits eventually become human, I think I heard humans become HGA's for other humans incarnate on earth and etc.
Spiritual evolution is everywhere :biggrin:


I like the fluidity that different beings have according to your belief system. It feels liberating to know that entities have the ability to shift their classification. In a way, it is very existentialist--the individual can create their own essence.

Do you consider yourself to be a Muslim? Your views don't seem very halal by mainstream standards, lol. And would the Jinn be classified as demons or elementals, or something else entirely?

I appreciate you answering all these questions, sorry if they seem annoying, I just enjoy absorbing and comparing information from many different systems.
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I too have shared the bloodlust once. It was toward someone who severely hurt someone I love in a almost an irrepairable way and I wished to permantly bind and curse them with blood beacuse using that power. And as for it seems to be both an outside source and and a personal desire. To me blood magick doesn't have to be violent or ill intended, like any magick it is based on intent,

When I said my bloodlust expressed itself in violence, I meant literally in the sense of engaging in physical violence and actual consumption of blood, not just blood magic.  :P
But yeah I think what you are experiencing is similar to what I did, even if it doesn't express itself entirely the same.

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As for what you said on it honing in on blood, could it be possible that blood is, well for lack of a better expression "in my blood" do you think?

What I meant was that your spirit/mind/subconscious is fixating and tuning in to it, and what you mention are merely the products of increased awareness.
Like how a psion, as he becomes familiar with psi, comes to feel the flow of psychic energy in his body, or read the energies in the environment or others.
I don't think you blood is literally becoming sentient, I think you are just tuning into it, sensing minute details and spiritual/physical activity in it which you didn't before. Our spiritual/physical bodies are doing all kinds of things which we are unaware of, but in this case, I am saying you are getting in tune with blood, coming to sense it in both a spiritual and physical way which we usually don't sense. Does that make sense?
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Magick / Re: The Subject of Pacts
« Last post by الظلام on September 10, 2018, 12:32:05 AM »
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I just always kinda assumed that good karma brings you closer to enlightenment, but now that I think about it, it's probably more likely that all karma (whether good or bad) binds you in samsara because of the law of cause-and-effect. At least that appears to be what eastern religions would believe. Does your tradition consider enlightenment to be completely independent of one's karma and morality?

Very wise reflection you caught on your own.
Karma is karma is karma, good or bad  :P
If you are familiar with Rawn Clark and Bardon's materials, Rawn talks about this in somewhere. Good karma will bind you to reincarnation just as much as bad karma.
That last bit is dependent on what you define as "enlightenment". That word in itself is thrown around a lot, and there are far too many definitions.
If you mean it in the sense of Self-Realization, aka merging with the greater self/akashic principle, then yes, it is separate from morality and karma.

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I think it's absolutely fascinating that a human can become a demon. I guess I still subconsciously view demons through the Christian-influenced paradigm that dominates contemporary culture, in which demons are all fallen angels and are of a unalterably different nature than man. If a human can become a demon, does this mean that a demon can become a human? And do human souls who go to angelic realms shift in their composition as well, eventually becoming angels?

To be honest I'm not sure how many of the fallen angels would qualify as true demons. Hence, why it is important to keep them separate. Fallen angels are fallen angels, and demons are demons. Using them interchangeably is risky.

My definition of what angels and demons are comes from a more universal, practical perspective influenced by Bardon and hermetics, which clears away the cultural bias, and tries to define them with objective clarity.

In this perspective, the main attribute of what makes a demon a demon, and what makes an angel an angel, is purity.
Demons are spirits of the negative/infernal polarity, angels are beings of the celestial/positive polarity; Demons are beings of darkness, angels are beings of light.

The reason I say that I am hesitant to define fallen angels as demons, is because I am not quite sure to what degree the Fallen embraced darkness. Now there is no doubt that they fell from grace and were perverted by ego and darkness, but I am not quite sure to what degree they all entirely "converted". They may or may not have retained some of their celestial composition. I'd also point out that they did not lose there celestial powers, they merely lost their "Angel status".

Anyways, the only things which really differentiate the spiritual structure of demons/angels from "humans"  is purity, and the humans' tetrapolarity(containing all elements).
However, the latter really doesn't hold much weight as there are many spirits out there which were never human and yet are tetrapolar, including some Gods, demons, angels, aliens etc.
The only real difference between humans and angels/demons is purity. If I were to give humans one trait which really defines them, it is their mixed composition, their ability to dance between light and dark, their mediocrity.
This is one reason why humans, unlike angels and demons, are a more complete image of God, since they represent both halves of Creation, both the negative and positive, essentially representing the entire universe or  "macrocosm".

Yes, there is nothing stopping demons from becoming humans, and vice versa. And yes those that inhabit the celestial realms will eventually be no different than the angels which already inhabited those places. On top of that there will even be angels and demons which gain tetrapolarity but retain their purity and status, and will incarnate alongside "humans".

Spirits are constantly evolving on their own, shifting "classification", so the idea which have already been presented really aren't all that far fetched.
Elementals often gain another element - losing their elemental status, elementals are essentially just collections of elemental energy which gained intelligence in the first place, demons lose their demonhood by gaining a positive element, fallen angels lost their angel status by being corrupted by darkness and rebelling, animal spirits eventually become human, I think I heard humans become HGA's for other humans incarnate on earth and etc.
Spiritual evolution is everywhere :biggrin:
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Magick / Re: The Subject of Pacts
« Last post by Sophocles on September 09, 2018, 09:03:25 PM »
Thanks for answering!

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I'm not sure what you think karma has to do with enlightenment, but anyways demons usually avoid deals which will overload your karma, good or bad. Especialy since they are somewhat responsible for what you do through the deal. But still, you may or may not find a demon who is both capable and willing to make a deal like this.

I just always kinda assumed that good karma brings you closer to enlightenment, but now that I think about it, it's probably more likely that all karma (whether good or bad) binds you in samsara because of the law of cause-and-effect. At least that appears to be what eastern religions would believe. Does your tradition consider enlightenment to be completely independent of one's karma and morality?

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That depends.
The main issue is that when you go to serve the demon after death, you are cast into the spiritual sphere he resides in, regardless of your own composition.
Our astral bodies, when we die, usually travel to a sphere that is harmonious with the composition of our own soul, however that isn't the case when you are forced to serve in a pact.
Instead you will be in a sphere that may be disharmonious, and if you stay there, your soul will gradually transform and harmonize with the sphere which you are stuck in.

Now, how will this affect your spiritual evolution? Depends what your desires were in the first place.
Obviously, if you are a right hand path hermetic magician, this will be quite a setback, and unless you escape(which I hear is possible), then the damage will be colossal.
However, if you wanted to become a demon, than making a pact is a very easy way to fulfill that, since your soul will have to convert into the composition of that sphere regardless, and eventually your soul will be no different in composition than the demons which inhabit that place. In this case, its a win-win  :biggrin:

I think it's absolutely fascinating that a human can become a demon. I guess I still subconsciously view demons through the Christian-influenced paradigm that dominates contemporary culture, in which demons are all fallen angels and are of a unalterably different nature than man. If a human can become a demon, does this mean that a demon can become a human? And do human souls who go to angelic realms shift in their composition as well, eventually becoming angels? 
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I too have shared the bloodlust once. It was toward someone who severely hurt someone I love in a almost an irrepairable way and I wished to permantly bind and curse them with blood beacuse using that power. And as for it seems to be both an outside source and and a personal desire. To me blood magick doesn't have to be violent or ill intended, like any magick it is based on intent. Since my blood reacts somewhat independantly sentient i consider it outside force partially. However the more I research it to try to understand it, admittedly it is somewhat interesting in itself, so it may be a mix of that and personal desire. As for what you said on it honing in on blood, could it be possible that blood is, well for lack of a better expression "in my blood" do you think?
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I have a similar experience, but it is more predatory and "immoral" then yours.

Essentially, I too had a calling to blood magic, however it came from more a feeling of bloodlust. There's this strange, powerful, but dark and violent attractiveness about blood. If you are familiar with the hermetic cosmology, I believe that this spiritual quality/emotion comes from the negative/infernal water element.
But anyways, this bloodlust compelled me to practice some forms of vampirism and blood magic(although it also expressed itself in extreme violence and lust for even more violence).

For you, it may be something similar, or maybe not. Do you feel that this feeling you have is coming more from just intuition? Or is it more emotional and spiritual? Is it more like an inspiration from an unknown source, or personal desire?
If it is more like your intuition, or more like a strange inspiration that you aren't sure where it comes from, it may be your spirit or higher self trying to get you into it for whatever reason. If it is more emotional feeling, and more personal desire, than it is probably more like what I had, and is the expression of a dark spiritual quality within you.

A lot of the things you mention, sound like your mind/subconscious honing in on blood, kind of like how a psion may get in tune with psychic energy.

And ultimately, the decision is yours. You are your own person, and may do as you wish. If you truly wish to get into it, than do so. One of the worst things you can do in life is throw away your own desires out of fear others may not approve. However, if you don't want to, then thats on you too :biggrin:
It is up to you to meditate on it, and reflect whether it is a true desire, or something you do not want.
Anyways we aren't the morality police :P
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