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Messages - Mobius

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16
Psionics / Re: Video Evidence is Pointless.
« on: July 13, 2010, 05:13:01 PM »
To respond to several points: progress in this matter is not purely a function of time. I'm sure there have been a great many monks and holy men that have lived and died accomplishing nothing at all. Proper methodology is also essential, and developing proper methodology requires a scientific approach. The vast majority of aspirants lack this, applying haphazard techniques built on shaky foundations, and this is a large contributing factor to why they spend years not really accomplishing anything at all.

People with interest in revealing psychic abilities to the world or proving them to the scientific community don't really matter much if they never have anything to show, do they?

How many people have been at this for how many years? You're telling me not ONE of them can do anything?

Honestly? Most still can't, to a meaningful degree.

Not to mention all the research grants that will be put into testing what this skill is and how to develop it in others.

You mean... like all of the money that has been invested in studying psychic phenomena, has confirmed their existence, and has made no one rich?

If the science is there, then the public opinion needs to go there.

Go down to your local tv station, "hi, I can move things without touching them. I'll do it live."

If you can scan people, go on a talk show and do it.

Tyra Banks had a show about psychic kids, and at the end there was a message, "is you or someone you know psychic? Call our studio and see it done." On that show, Tyra Even had them do "readings" of some people in the audience. It was relatively unimpressive.

If there is someone who has a genuine ability, there is NOTHING stopping them.

Except the fact that that's not really how it works.

Reliability is a factor, especially in unusual environments. Trying to do anything 'live', making the practitioner dependent on getting it right there and on the spot, is a good formula for making an ass out of yourself.

I have also heard of all of the "scientific contributions" you listed, and again, most of them failed in terms of unverifiable data, unrepeatable experiments (subject X can only do it once every blue moon and has to be on acid to get a correct reading), and experimental errors. Statistical significant? in some cases. Anything conclusive? Not really.

As I said in the previous thread, this meme is most tiresome.

I suggest picking up a copy of "The Conscious Universe" by Dean Radin to educate yourself on the history and current status of the field.

17
Psionics / Re: Video Evidence is Pointless.
« on: July 13, 2010, 04:41:43 PM »
Quote
Assume now for one moment that these individuals exist. You are asking them to prove to you and the scientific community. Tell me, if you would, what their incentive for compliance is?

Wait until they can do it repeatedly, then have them go at it.

You might be waiting a while. This is not the only hobby most of us have.

They will change the world's understand of what's possible.

What percentage of them would you estimate actually care about this ambition?

If they have less lofty goals, they will be rich and famous for the rest of their lives.

How? Where will this money and fame come from?

A little less selfishly they will make invaluable contributions to science, and will have a career for as long as they want one.

Again, what percentage of practitioners do you think care about this possibility?

Further, what is your evidence that this would be the case? Have you seen the various meta-analysis that have already been done of parapsychology studies? The Stargate project? The contribution to science has been made, its existence has been proven beyond most rational basis criteria, and about all that has accomplished has been the ending of careers. The existence of such things the larger scientific community is not quite ready to embrace just yet.

18
Psionics / Re: Video Evidence is Pointless.
« on: July 13, 2010, 04:20:52 PM »
Repost:

Can't really defend this. I think most such claims of powerful life-changing mystics are likely myth and nonsense, the relationship of which to our practice does it no favors. The reality of psychic phenomena isn't so impressive; what is awe inspiring is that they exist at all.

Well PK and Scanning with in the psi community are already pretty impressive feats.

If you can move anything greater than a psi wheel, that's saying something, and something that is test worthy (and will probably get a lot of interest).

Scanning can provide lots of information on a person, which is also quite testable and amazing. I mean, even if you can tell me something like my middle name, or a fact about me that you'd have no way of knowing, goes a long way in providing proof (which is also something which can be more rigorously tested).

Well, here's the thing. The vast, vast majority of the psi community can't perform PK, or do a scan. A fair portion of it believes they can, but they cannot demonstrate it to a statistically significant level. If they could, then said video would likely not be in short supply. That much we agree on, yes?

Now, I then make the claim that there does exist a small portion of the community that is capable of such things. The degree of intensity varies, and what varies even more is reliability and repeatability. Even for these blessed souls, it is not an ability that can be conjured easily or on command, but with sufficient free time, they will eventually make it happen.

Assume now for one moment that these individuals exist. You are asking them to prove to you and the scientific community. Tell me, if you would, what their incentive for compliance is?

19
Psionics / Re: Best Video Evidence
« on: July 13, 2010, 03:59:11 PM »
I've been a member of the occult community for a long time, on many different forums, and I've never seen anyone offering evidence. If I did, I'd take it and be content. Nor have I ever seen anyone who would deny the proof of their senses, especially on as exciting a subject as magic/psionics.

Yes, this as well.

I find all the stories given around here about people who received evidence and it didn't change their life to be....... eh, I don't really buy it. I've heard stories of numerous people who encountered a guru or high level teacher, the teacher/guru did something that they knew would convince the student. A single word or phrase sometimes. A simple action. And the person pretty much changed their entire lives so they could follow the teachings of this person.

So, I have a hard time buying the legions of people who are showered with evidence who don't believe it, only to be showered with more evidence and still ask for more. If anything, doubting evidence given means the demonstration was rather lackluster in the first place, or that the demonstrator is acting kinda funny about it (at least, that's how it's been in my experience, I could be wrong in this scenario).

And if all of this is true, I wanna kick the crap out of all the people who received this amazing evidence and didn't believe it, because they genuinely fucked all the rest of us over.

Can't really defend this. I think most such claims of powerful life-changing mystics are likely myth and nonsense, the relationship of which to our practice does it no favors. The reality of psychic phenomena isn't so impressive; what is awe inspiring is that they exist at all.

20
Psionics / Re: Best Video Evidence
« on: July 13, 2010, 03:56:52 PM »
the list of those capable of actually performing legitimate psionic feats is a short one.
A list of one, going by the Proof thread, and two if you include Kobok!

A bit longer than that. I would say it could probably be counted on two hands, though. :)

Quote
They have since learned that about all this accomplishes is forming a long line of obnoxious requests for more demonstrations.
I don't think it does, nor would I call the requests obnoxious (depending on how they are put, of course). As has been pointed out in several other recent threads: where are all of these mysterious people who will see evidence and then be unsatisfied with it?

 I've been a member of the occult community for a long time, on many different forums, and I've never seen anyone offering evidence. If I did, I'd take it and be content. Nor have I ever seen anyone who would deny the proof of their senses, especially on as exciting a subject as magic/psionics.

Said "mysterious people" are in no short supply. There are countless videos of claimed paranormal phenomena on youtube. Go look some up; most will have comments decrying it as a fake and attempting to disassemble the illusion. Justified, in part, as the vast majority of those are crap, but that same zeal is just as easily applied to a hypothetical legitimate video. The sheer number of variables you'd need to account for in order to pre-diffuse an attempted demonstration from said psuedo-skeptics is headache worthy. Video is just not the ideal medium for such a thing; people know by now not to trust their eyes, and in the modern world that is typically well founded.

21
Psionics / Re: Best Video Evidence
« on: July 13, 2010, 03:43:35 PM »
If you're interested in researching legitimate proof of the psychic phenomena, we have an article on Parapsychology which has links to many organizations and studies of the matter.

I've shown many of those links to friends of mine who understood scientific procedures much better than I. Within minutes they pointed to serious errors within the procedure of most of that research. It seems that not even a scientific community dedicated to the task can even manage to get past the relatively inexperienced eyes of an undergraduate science major.

I hear this meme oft repeated, and it gets rather tiresome. Yes, there are certainly some badly designed and poorly conducted parapsychology studies out there -- as is the case for any scientific realm. Positing that the entire field is therefore fundamentally flawed and as a body is incapable of performing legitimate science is quite the high claim, though... and one that you're going to need to provide some proof for.

Consider this: The 'relatively inexperienced eyes of an undergraduate science major' might not know quite as much about conducting studies as they think they do, just yet.

If you or your friends would care to discuss particulars of a given study, I'd be happy to do so.

(though typically in a more direct fashion, as video evidence is meaningless).

You know, everyone says that, and it's really starting to sound like that's a blanket excuse for everyone to back out of showing proof. Perhaps you'd like to continue this discussion in the appropriate thread: http://forums.vsociety.net/index.php?topic=16071.0

Video evidence is not, nor should ever be, considered as the only proof anyone ever needs. However, it is a start, and can serve a good purpose if used appropriately. Yet people think that since it can't go all the way it shouldn't be used at all. Ridiculous. Space shuttles use booster rockets which they discard at various stages of take off. Once it's out in space, it no longer has those booster rockets. Since booster rockets don't last the whole flight, should we just not use from them the start? No, it helps us get out into space.

Video evidence might not be able to prove everything. But it's a start. And for all the talk of this community, people aren't even willing to act like they're willing to put their money where their mouth is, even knowing they could fake it.

We're so close to agreement on this, but alas.

I believe strongly that our community is in greater need of evidence for presentation to aspirants and the larger world alike. Something to present to them and say, "This shit is real, yo. Believe it.", and blow their minds. However, I believe this demonstration of power needs to be something beyond reasonable doubt, and videos do not and cannot satisfy this qualifier in my eyes. Therefore, given the effort required, I don't really see it as sufficiently inscrutible to be worth the bother. Developing something more along the lines of what I believe is necessary is a personal project of mine.

22
Psionics / Re: Best Video Evidence
« on: July 13, 2010, 11:07:32 AM »
Chiefly, the wisdom that experience brings.

My observations have been that while there are a great many aspirants in our community, the list of those capable of actually performing legitimate psionic feats is a short one. Many of them, especially when younger, often times did indulge requests for 'proof' as this one (though typically in a more direct fashion, as video evidence is meaningless). They have since learned that about all this accomplishes is forming a long line of obnoxious requests for more demonstrations. Eventually, maturity alleviates the compulsion to succumb to psuedo-skeptic demands.

The proof of psychic phenomena is in parapsychological research. Anything more wondrous than that, in a genuinely meaningful form, is a tall order, and providing it is still an active area of research for me personally.

23
Psionics / Re: Best Video Evidence
« on: July 13, 2010, 07:23:55 AM »
Perhaps you are not aware of the local psi culture, but as a general rule belief in a need for a rational and scientific approach to the arts does not equate to needing to provide demonstrations. Proving the existence of psychic phenomena is regarded as a task for the parapsychology scientific community to the world and the individual to themselves. It is a dubious prospect at best to find a practitioner capable of providing you what you ask for who is also willing to indulge you.

If you're interested in researching legitimate proof of the psychic phenomena, we have an article on Parapsychology which has links to many organizations and studies of the matter.

24
Main Hall / Cooking Recipies
« on: September 14, 2008, 08:49:47 PM »
As I chow down on the last bites of a batch of kobok-style hot wings, I realize that some of the more tasty recipes I've ever tried have come from this community. With spiritual attainment comes gastrointenstinal wisdom? I do not know.

What I would like to know are more recipies you guys have to offer. I'll be having my own kitchen shortly, and I'd love to hear some favorite suggestions to try my hand at. :)

25
The Cafeteria / Re: Judge above person.
« on: November 17, 2007, 11:03:07 AM »
Try to keep it civil.

26
Main Hall / Re: Scientists becoming celebrities?
« on: November 16, 2007, 09:00:08 PM »
I think that time has come. This thread does not seem to be going anywhere productive.

Thread locked.

27
Main Hall / Re: Veritas Story Contest!
« on: November 16, 2007, 01:17:11 AM »
You can PM them to me.

28
Main Hall / Re: Veritas Story Contest!
« on: November 16, 2007, 12:47:37 AM »
Just like to remind everyone that the deadline lies ahead, keep writing! :)

29
Psionics / Re: ALL old psionic articles from back befor the fluff wave
« on: November 15, 2007, 10:32:53 PM »
As at the very least, Darkduck himself has requested that the Lentation article not be distributed, it is legally unwise (not to mention extremely rude) to circumvent those wishes.

I have removed your download link. If you wish to put up another archive, with the unauthorized articles removed, you may do so.

30
Main Hall / Re: Scientists becoming celebrities?
« on: November 15, 2007, 03:00:28 PM »
Quote from: Tankdown
The fact that wikipedia does do it bothers me and since you can't exactly always tell which is wrong and right without knowing the subject in the first place is disrupting.

How can you tell that what you are reading is accurate for any source? When reading reference material, you must always place some faith in the author(s) being accurate in what they are saying. If you will read here, you will find that the majority of reviews hold Wiki in generally positive light.

All of that is besides the point, though. For scientific matters, perhaps things are a little different, worthy of at least double checking the sources that Wiki articles must cite. The original argument was raised, simply, because you appeared to make a categorical dismissal of Wiki, on a matter which it is virtually guaranteed to be accurate (What is the Onion?), which has the appearance of a rather tragic misunderstanding of how it operates.

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