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Messages - Neti Neti

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Body Energy Arts / Re: Exercise for Immortality......
« on: March 17, 2006, 10:11:17 AM »
Wow, I never come here anymore. Its a good thing.

I just happened to be on spring break, and found the link. Eh, then I found this topic. So, im going to post something, and it will probely be monthes before I come back here again, so it doesn't matter.

First off, I would have to agree with Vitaldragon (give or take some). The majority of his argument can be supported with the very basic PSY intro classes in college. As a matter of fact, the writings of Robert Steinberg in "Psychology" (2004) is a good starter. Its a general text on psychology, so most of you should understand it. There is also another book, "On killing" (I forget the author) which is a psychological analysis of why we kill (or more so don't kill), and how the military overcomes these abitions or inhibitions (depending on your view). It is a very anaylitical text which unveils somethings that you think you know, but you dont. Simply because you are unaware of it.  

Another good text is "Social Psychology" (again, I forget the author), but opens your eyes to your own blinders concering social interactions and personal introspective.

"People think psychology is … head shrinking, [but] psychology today is also about learning what, biologically, causes people to behave in a certain way"
- Dan, senior, psychology and biology, University of Virginia

I can also understand why it is scary for most people to believe that the majority of the actions that they perform they are not fully conscienous of (be their bodily, or other). We are as complex as we are simple in the fact that we show so much, but the reasoning behind those actions can be disoriented. The vast majority of our behaviors can be explained threw three fields in my eyes: Biology (and Chemistry), Psychology, and Philosphy. Everything else is either an extension (Socialogy, Anthropology, Neurobiology, etc.), or something derived or applied from these fields (in relation to what we are and how/why we behave the ways we do).

I do admit that Psychology is still developing, but it is a science. And all sciences evolve, its what they do. At the same time, they are not perfect, nor will any of them ever will be. But they get preety damn close.

So, take that for what you may, I don't care really. Its just my two cents.  

Edit: In relation to computers:
Consciousness would be defined as the operating system. Most people think that this is what runs the show--that it is this that is the primary program. However, there are several programs which run and operate together which gives the illusion of a primary program. This would be the subconscious. It is these programs that operate which make the operating system. Even beyond that is th code which makes up each individual program=== binary code. 0s and 1s. That is the unconscious. This relates to us....sorta. We are a lot more complicated. But, this is a general example.

Psionics / Re: Flying
« on: September 26, 2005, 06:08:05 PM »
Sleepwalker is right.

By feeding negtive energy into a threat, you are still giving it ENERGY. People will respond to your posts, and thus the thread will continue. A post is a post, be it negtive or postive. Thus the thread is living.

Main Hall / Re: talk!
« on: September 16, 2005, 08:25:59 AM »

Spirituality / Re: Was Jesus Teaching a Yoga System?
« on: September 15, 2005, 01:40:53 PM »
Wow, evolved this thread has. ^_^

Well, I moved (from South Carolina to New York... not the city though. And for college.). So, thats the excuse for my shortage of postings. Not like I post much here anyway...

Anyway, I believe that Jesus was not teaching a Yogic system. There are reports that Jesus may have stayed in India and participated in some yogic activities, but none of these reports are justified to my knowelege. So... what do I think is going on?

Well, I see truth as universal. There are diffrent interrupations of the same truth, each individual exibiting it in a diffrent fashion. This is the diffrence in Buddha, Jesus, Krishnia, and any other "holy avatar" that has appeared here.  Since it is all one truth, many of the same concepts overlap. Not all the concepts are exact to any other most of the time, but some are. When they are, lots of people try to expolit them in order to prove that everyone is teaching the same thing. Which, in a way they are, in a way they aren't. There are diffrent styles, diffrent paths, and some take you one place, and some another. It depends on the person, and what you are following and how. Chrisitanity today is quite diffrent from what Jesus essentially taught, but Jesus did leave a lot of what he said open for interrupitation (then again, on a lot of cases he didn't... and we just dont listen). It is these interrupations of others that most of us live, and not threw the essence of the orgional teachings.

So whats the answer? Independent reasearch and self-evaulation and questioning seems to work the best. Its how most of the best have become. And thats my 3 cents.

Spirituality / Documentary Questions the Existence of Jesus
« on: August 22, 2005, 06:58:39 PM »
In 'The God Who Wasn't There,' a former born-again Christian argues that Christ was a mythological figure.

Brian Flemming's "Bat Boy: The Musical" was praised by critics but appalled some fundamentalists with its references to incest and other dark themes. Flemming's latest project is just as likely to disturb conservative Christians.

The 39-year-old Angeleno has made an hourlong documentary titled "The God Who Wasn't There." In it, the former born-again Christian argues that the biblical Jesus never lived, but is a mythological figure like Paul Bunyan.

Initially released theatrically June 17, the documentary grew out of Flemming's research for a fictional thriller-in-progress titled, "The Beast." In that film, which he hopes to release next year, a teenage Christian discovers that the Jesus she fervently believes in never existed.

"My position is that's the most likely scenario," the filmmaker said.

Asked why he chose to question Jesus' existence instead of his divinity, Flemming said: "I think that the idea that an individual could be the son of a god is already so ridiculous it doesn't need to be debunked."

To promote the movie, Flemming places it squarely in the company of other headline-making exposes: " 'Bowling for Columbine' did it to the gun culture. 'Super Size Me' did it to fast food. Now 'The God Who Wasn't There' does it to religion…. Hold on to your faith. It's in for a bumpy ride."

Made for less than $100,000, with jazzy graphics and David Byrne remixed on the soundtrack, the documentary includes a montage of images from a 1905 silent movie on the life of Christ and the 1952 miniseries "The Living Bible."

Wielding his own camera, Flemming interviews believers outside a Billy Graham event and talks with academics who argue that the Jesus of the Gospels did not live 2,000 years ago in what is now Israel.

Flemming also returns to the campus of the Sun Valley Christian school where, he said, he accepted Christ as his personal savior. The school superintendent walks out mid-interview.

If that makes the documentary sound, to believers, like the evil twin of Mel Gibson's "The Passion of the Christ," that's fine with Flemming.

To get attention for his movie, he is mimicking Gibson, who generated word of mouth for his controversial film about the Crucifixion by screening it first for Christian groups.

Flemming is encouraging skeptics groups and others to show his movie, allowing them to keep any profits once they purchase the DVD. It goes on sale Tuesday (its website is

Flemming will screen and talk about the film Sunday at 11 a.m. in the Center for Inquiry-West's Steve Allen Theater, 4773 Hollywood Blvd., Hollywood. The secular humanist organization will repeat the program at 4:30 p.m. at the Costa Mesa Community Center, 1845 Park Ave. (Admission is $6 for nonmembers, free for members.)

With his parents, the young Flemming attended a Methodist church. But, he said, his parents were concerned about violence in the Sylmar public schools and sent him to a nearby fundamentalist Christian school. There, he said, he believed his teachers when they said that God created the world in six days and other Bible-based lessons.

But those beliefs crumbled when he went to UC Irvine and began studying philosophy and science.

"I am not one of those atheists who has a big conversion story," he said. "It took me a while to call myself an atheist, because it was drummed into me that was such a bad thing to be."

What Flemming learned at a secular university convinced him that his fundamentalist teachers had "misrepresented what evolution was" and distorted other truths to bolster their Christian faith.

It is "frightening to me that children get indoctrinated in it," he said.

Chris Leland, a spokesman for the Focus on the Family Institute, an educational unit of the evangelical Christian organization, has seen the film and decries the scholarship that Flemming uses to argue against a historic Jesus.

"Some of the original premises of the film are shallowly researched," Leland said. "It ignores an enormous range of Jewish research on a person called Jesus, archeological confirmations … as well as other external historical documents."

One of the people arguing on screen for questioning belief is neuroscientist Sam Harris, author of "The End of Faith: Religion, Terror, and the Future of Reason." An atheist, Harris praised the film for challenging what he regards as a maladaptive taboo in contemporary society — against asking people of faith to present evidence for their contentions.

"We allow people to make the most extraordinary claims without giving evidence," Harris said. "It's considered uncivil to criticize people's religious certainties…. Whether Jesus existed or not, we need to criticize people's false certainties."

Father Thomas Rausch, a Jesuit priest and professor of theology at Loyola Marymount University in Los Angeles, has not seen the film. But, he said, "I don't know any serious scholar who questions the existence of Jesus."

According to Rausch, the best evidence that Jesus lived comes from the ancient Jewish writer and historian Josephus, particularly a passage in his "The Jewish Antiquities," dating from about AD 95. Some material in Josephus was probably added to the original text by Christians to bolster the young religion.

But, Rausch said, most scholars accept as authentic Josephus' description of a wise teacher called Jesus who did "startling deeds" and "gained a following among many Jews and many of Greek origin," according to one translation, and was condemned to the cross.

Historian Richard Carrier, the atheist author of "Sense and Goodness Without God," said he had been "agnostic" about the existence of Jesus until Flemming interviewed him for the film. Now, he said, "I think that more likely than not, Jesus did not exist."

Carrier has come to doubt that Josephus wrote a word of the key passage about Jesus, known among scholars as the Testimonium Flavianum. Carrier was swayed by a mass of circumstantial evidence, including early Christian theologian Origen's citing Josephus but not that passage.

Whether or not the film changes anyone's mind, some skeptics see the movie as a welcome call for reason and against blind faith. Ford Vox heads the Universist Movement, whose 8,000 members describe themselves as "faithless."

"We emphasize free inquiry rather than the nonexistence of God," said Vox, a medical student who founded the group in Birmingham, Ala., in 2003.

The Universists sponsored the film's Southern premiere in Birmingham and its New York City opening. Vox said he believes the movie communicates a healthy skepticism about Christianity.

He said religion is dangerous in that it often encourages "absolutist, black-and-white thinking" that allows people to dehumanize and demonize those who don't share their beliefs.

Flemming, aware of the irony that the fundamentalist faith he rejected fuels much of his work, said he gets "a lot of e-mail that ranges from utterly hateful to 'I want to save your soul.' "

The filmmaker said he has "no lingering resentment" about his parents sending him to a fundamentalist school. And making "The God Who Wasn't There," especially the sequence in the school chapel, was "very cathartic," he said. "I'm finally done with that whole period of my life, and I can move on."

Spirituality / Re: Was Jesus Teaching a Yoga System?
« on: August 22, 2005, 06:48:36 PM »
Well, back to the orgional thread, I don't believe that Jesus was teaching a yogic system, no was yoga teaching a Christian one (but that cant be, since Christianity came after Yoga anyway... ).

Sure there are slight simularities, as with anything. Certain things DO add up, because certain things in both systems of thought are the same thing, just expressed diffrently. Its like talking in diffrent languages---some people understand only one, some are multilangual, etc. No one language can be directly translated into another one, without something being "lost" in translation. It's because they are all their own languages, and not a language of a language (some are, but ya get my picture) The same is all with Religions. Each has its own way, its own twork, but all are languages. And languages all have one thing in common. Whats that? That which isn't said is usually more important then what is said (the silence...).  And in that way, they all come from the same place.

Whats more important? The letters, or the words they make? The words, or the spaces between them?

Spirituality / Re: Whos' God's Dad?
« on: August 20, 2005, 10:34:10 PM »
Maybe impossible to comprehend, but not to know.  :wink:

Spirituality / Re: Was Jesus Teaching a Yoga System?
« on: August 12, 2005, 12:21:40 PM »
Not MY theory. Check the link  :p This was just to spark discussion.

So, I will post what I think later.

Spirituality / Was Jesus Teaching a Yoga System?
« on: August 10, 2005, 10:47:30 PM »
Did Jesus teach Yoga?
Though it may surprise you, the answer to this question is both “Yes” and “No.”

First, let's define the word "Yoga." It comes from an original Sanskrit word that means "yoke" or "union." So the implied meaning is "to be yoked with God or in union with God." In this sense, Yes, a person could say that Jesus taught "Yoga," because His teachings emphasize how to be "yoked with
God," how to experience "oneness or union with God." However, the methods employed in various schools of Yoga usually differ drastically from those espoused by the Lord Jesus.

In Hinduism especially, as well as some other Far Eastern worldviews, it is believed that union with God can be achieved through various means. According to the emphasis of a particular group, different categories of "Yoga," such as the following, have emerged:

(1) Hatha Yoga (the path of physical disciplines, asanas and breath control);

(2) Karma Yoga (the yoga of action, good works or selfless service);

(3) Mantra Yoga (the path of chanting mantras);

(4) Bhakti Yoga (the path of devotion to God, a god or an individual guru or avatar);

(5) Jnana Yoga (the path of transcendental knowledge);

(6) Raja Yoga (the royal path of meditation and mind control);

(7) Tantra Yoga (the use of esoteric methods to obtain supernatural experiences, sometimes the harnessing of power through sexual experiences);

(8) Kundalini Yoga (a blend of Hatha, Mantra, Raja Yoga and sometimes Tantra Yoga aimed at the awakening of the “kundalini”—defined as a latent, divine power coiled like a serpent at the base of the spine).

Sometimes various branches of yoga incorporate several of the above types into one composite yogic system. Though each branch may promote a slightly different approach, the ultimate goal of all yoga practices is Enlightenment, oneness with the Divine, the awakening of the Higher Self, the attainment of God-consciousness,

I was a teacher of Kundalini Yoga at four universities in Florida, so I am well aware of the various yogic practices designed to carry devotees to higher levels of consciousness. I am now a Christian minister, a believer in the Biblical worldview. So I have experienced both sides: theoretically, theologically and experientially. You can read my testimony, the story of my conversion to Christianity by clicking here.

The title question of this article is "Did Jesus Teach Yoga?" and my initial response was both "Yes" and "No." Let me restate some important basic observations. When the meaning of the word "Yoga" is the emphasis, it would be logical to conclude, in a qualified sense, that Jesus did teach yoga—for He definitely taught men and women how to be "yoked with God," how to experience "union with God." This is reinforced by one of his most quoted invitations and promises:

“ Come unto Me, all ye that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest. Take My yoke upon you, and learn of Me; for I am meek and lowly in heart: and ye shall find rest unto your souls. For My yoke is easy, and My burden is light.” (Matthew 11:28-30)

When Jesus said, “Take My yoke upon you” in essence, He was saying, “Come into union with Me—learn to think, feel, act and react just as I would.” He even prayed in John 17 that His disciples would be one with the Father, just as He was and is. So oneness of heart, union with the Almighty, was definitely an emphasis in Jesus’ preaching. This is the primary goal of yoga and the primary theme of Jesus’ message. However, the projected means of obtaining such oneness and the philosophy behind the practices and methods used are, at times, oceans apart. For instance, let’s inspect how the teachings of Jesus fit, or fail to fit, within the framework of the various yoga schools already mentioned:

(1) Hatha Yoga—Jesus never taught the necessity of physical exercises and breathing disciplines in order to open up the ‘chakras’ (spiritual energy centers) and achieve a state of inner harmony. Most teachers of New Age ideas or Far Eastern religions would readily label Jesus an Avatar (a manifestation of God on earth). If He did fill this role (of course, Christianity teaches that Jesus was the “only” incarnation of God to ever visit this world) and if Hatha Yoga is a valid methodology, why did He neglect such an important subject?

Of course, the logical answer is that He did not consider such methods necessary to man’s spiritual development. Years ago, I spent many hours doing yoga postures (asanas) and breathing exercises (pranayama). Now I am convinced, they may help tone and oxygenate a person’s body, but they do not aid anyone in obtaining true experiences of the transcendent state. God is a personal God who is approached in a personal way, not by such structured, mechanical methods. (Check out this link for info on “The Third Eye.”)

(2) Karma Yoga—This yogic system is based on the idea that every action causes either good or bad karma. Furthermore, the soul of a person remains locked in a series or rebirths (reincarnations) until all karmic debt is paid off. So the object of Karma Yoga is to live such a perfect life that there is no karmic indebtedness. At that time, release (moksha) from physical existence is achieved.

Jesus did not teach this. He taught one life and then a resurrection, not karma and reincarnation. However, He did teach a certain concept of cause and effect. He warned that the measure we deal out to others will also be dealt back to us. (See Matthew 7:2) Later on, Paul, the apostle, restated this concept with the words, “Whatever a man sows, that will he also reap.” (Galatians 6:7)

These statements describe a general truth that is somewhat predictable concerning life and relationships in this world. For instance, if we show hatred toward others, they will normally respond with hatred toward us. If we express love toward others, they will usually react with love toward us. If we bless others selflessly, they will often bless us in return—and God Himself will often reward us with outpoured blessings for our generosity. If we drink or do drugs, we will end up destroying our bodies and minds. If we involve ourselves in sensuality and immorality, it will destroy family relationships. If we rebel against God’s laws, we will suffer the consequences. What we sow, we reap. That’s just the way things work in life.

However, Jesus never intended to convey the karmic concept that every action MUST result in an exactly matched counter-action. Neither did he teach that souls get ‘locked’ into samsara (the cycle of rebirths) because of karmic debt. Believing this doctrine leaves no room for forgiveness coming from God, which was a major emphasis in Jesus’ teachings. Man instead is required to work out his own destiny by the strength of his own choices. (See more on “Reincarnation” and “Karma”, including 13 reasons why I no longer believe in the twin doctrines of Reincarnation and Karma.)

(3) Mantra Yoga—Jesus never taught the use of mantras. Quite the opposite, he warned against this method, describing the practice as “vain repetitions.” (See Matthew 6:7) The Bible advocates confessing the promises of God’s Word. It also encourages us to use certain words and phrases in prayer that can sometimes get somewhat repetitive (like “Praise the Lord” or “Hallelujah”). However, it never instructs Christians to chant these words or some magical phrases over and over in a monotone way, in order to manipulate some kind of inner cosmic power. God is a personal God, to be approached in a personal way, and these praise words are a means of celebration for those who have already established a relationship with Him. (Click this link for more on “Mantras and the Message of Jesus.”)

(4) Bhakti Yoga—Of course, Jesus taught that the greatest commandment is to love God with all the heart, mind, soul and strength. However, to actually do this, a person must know and correctly define the name and nature of the true God. Not all names and personalities ascribed to God are correct. Bhakti Yoga would advocate devotion to any god as being legitimate. However, if one expresses love and devotion to a god that is actually non-existent, there is no value to the soul. A deity that is the product of human imagination is a deity that cannot deliver its devotees from sin and deception, for the very worship of that deity is itself sinful and deceptive. (Click this link for more info on the “The Name of God.”)

(5) Jnana Yoga—Bible believers are encouraged to grow in the knowledge of God and we are taught that “in Christ” are hidden all the treasures of wisdom and knowledge. Gaining greater knowledge of God through prayer (revelation knowledge) and through the study of God’s Word (intellectual knowledge) does heighten one’s awareness of God and increase intimacy with God. And Jesus did explain to His disciples, “This is life eternal, that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom You have sent.” (John 17:3) So knowing God is far more important than knowing about God. The problem is this. Much of that which is promoted in Jnana Yoga as the “Path of Knowledge” would not be in harmony with what Jesus taught. Just learning theories and ideas about God is not enough; we must learn the truth for it to be effective in our lives. Reading all the Scriptures of all world religions is not enough; we must discover what is actually inspired of God.

(6) Raja Yoga—This group emphasizes meditation. Well, Christians are taught to “meditate” on God and on His Word. Biblically, the word “meditation” simply means a private and focused time of devotion, which often involves prayerful study of God’s Word. Many of the meditation practices encouraged in Raja Yoga are much different that the methods Christians would employ. The use of mechanical, esoteric, or magical methods is not a part of the biblical approach to God. The Bible teaches that a spiritual regeneration is necessary in order to know God. This can only happen through the soul being cleansed by the blood Jesus shed on the cross. Any other method aimed at penetrating a supernatural world will fall short of its goal.

(7) Tantra Yoga—No true Christian would EVER be involved in the pursuit of enlightenment through sexual practices. Quite the contrary, the Bible teaches against fornication, adultery, incest, homosexuality, lesbianism and any other aberrant sexual behavior. Sexual involvement is only allowed within the confines of marriage and is never projected as being a means of obtaining enlightenment. Any supernatural experience coming from this method involving partners other than a spouse actually bring a person into a demonic experience.

(8) Kundalini Yoga—Jesus never taught his disciples methods aimed at awakening some inward, latent, coiled energy at the base of the spine, bringing on enlightenment. Neither did He portray God as an impersonal cosmic energy that permeates all things, to be discovered by meditating within. He rather taught an external, transcendent God who is personal and accessible only through the atoning death Jesus died on the cross. Jesus said, “No one comes to the Father except through me.” (John 14:6)

In order to enter a relationship with God, the heart must first be cleansed by the blood of Jesus from all sin. This takes place when a seeker asks Jesus to come into his heart and be Lord of his life. The Holy Spirit will then enter that heart from without, thus effecting a spiritual regeneration. This is the experience Jesus referred to as being “born again,” an experience far different than any experience provided through yogic disciplines. (John 3:1-6) Jesus clearly informed that this experience is necessary to enter the Kingdom of God.

If the Spirit of God has not yet entered a person from without, any attempt to awaken some divine presence within is in vain. Furthermore, the awakening of the kundalini is supposed to bring a person to the awareness of his own divinity, an understanding that we are all God. Jesus never taught such a concept. We are called to be children of God and servants of God, but we will never actually become God Himself. (Check out this link for more info.)


If that statement means being “yoked” with the true God, one with the Holy Spirit and lovingly submitted to His will, the answer is a qualified “Yes.”

If that statement means that acceptance of all the yogic methods, practices and beliefs taught by the groups listed above, the answer is a definite “No.”



“…THE TRUE LIGHT which gives light to every man coming into the world.” (John 1:9)

Yup yup.

I have been raised Christian. Heck, I even went to Church last Sunday. :-p I have been going there almost every Sunday since I can imagine. Its less then a mile down the road! About... a fourth actually.

Yet, I consider myself Christian not. It's a great learning experience sometimes, and has made me who I am today without question. But it is also clouded. Like much things. People take the Bible as they wish--- because of course, they are for the interpurter to understand. This is why there are so many divisions of the Church. That and a King who wanted a boy. (If you know your history, then you know who I am referring to). Then they use the Bilbe to justify their actions or words. And if you don't agree, then fine, you will just burn for all eternity. What a price to pay, eh?

There are other religions that existed WAY before Christianty and Judism. Zorozusthria (I KNOW I didn't spell that one right), was the FIRST monotheistic religion. It is what most scholars believe Christianity got its roots. Since back in its time, it was a very fresh and revolutionary idea. The belief in one omnipresent being!? Wow, that was a mouth full.

But yea... I tend to fall back in line with Kobok. No religion, or no one man contains ALL truth. We are each pieces to the much larger puzzle. The Bible is anything but complete. Some parts have even been added.. haha. Then some taken away. Either way, it is how it is, becasue it is suspose to be that way. If not for it, I would not be who I am today. But I am who I am today because I grew. I grew into the Bible... then I grew BEYOND it. I think thats where most get hung up.  It's scarier than the Bible itself.  To go beyond it. But, its worth it. Some people go beyond it, only to go back to find comfort. And thats them.. they just aren't ready. But if you step out, then it's going to be scary, and hard. All things worth while are.


Psionics / Re: Flying
« on: August 10, 2005, 10:04:08 PM »
lol, these threads are always funny.

2 sides... like to a coin. One side is pro, one side is neigh. One side says "NO WAY IN F***ING HELL CAN YOUR DUMB A** LEAVE THE F***ING GROUND WITHOUT STEPPING IN A PLANE YOU F***ING IDIOT". The other side goes, "Oh, I know it is possible because I just can feel it in my dreams...and the unicorn told me so." But when you see that it is one coin, then you see that both sides are utterly pointless without the other, and neither can win.

So, can you levitate? Sure, it has been done before. It has been faked before. It has been a lot of things before. But it is possible. Like mentioned before, just not PLAUSABLE ...for a lot of people. I outlined how to achieve levitation actually in another thred similuar to this, so I won't be redundant. Once (if) you learn how to, you will see how pointless it is anyway, and wonder why you ever wasted the time to learn how to float. If you never, then its better off, because you proberly weren't ready for it anyway. In other words, If you wish to levitate just to show it off to your friends and be "cool", then its stupid. They will just talk behind yor back and call you weird anyway. The energy can be used for other things.

There is so much beyond learning how to float or do some of the other things that are here. But if you feel yourself compelled to levitate for SOME reason, or feel you need to read peoples mind, then go ahead.  But to those who haven't, or don't think it is scientifically possible, then try it before you bite it. Even if you don't, it doesn't mean that someone else hasn't. Or isn't right now.  And to those who swear on flying pigs... then, don't give up. But be sensable about it. And the time wasted to learn how to can be used for sleeping or...something (insert what else you might like to do). Well, I like to sleep in my spare time.  :cool: Or to get your friends back for talking about you behind your back.

An enlighted person is just that-- Enlightened. :-p It means he/she understands. Understands what? Who he/she is. That's all.

There is the misconception that an enlightened being is all knowing. It's not true. It is true that an enlightened person tends to catch on to things faster, but that along doesn't mean that they know all things. Its because they know that all things stem from one thing, and that one thing is in return all things. This doesn't mean that an all knowing person is enlightened, or that a person who catches on fast knows all things :-p.

But Kundalini is not needed for enlightenment, nor is enlightenment needed for kundalini. Kundalini is the energy that transforms the being. It may or may not led to enlightenment. More people go crazy from it (or some other debilitating faction) then achieve enlightenment anyway. Enlightenment is more like a state of being. Kundalini can be used to reach that place (and beyond), but it is NOT needed.

Is it possible to 'attain' enlightenment without an awakened kundalini? Yes.

"Is it possible to 'attain' enlightenment without an awakened kundalini as it is presented in the kundalini shastras?  Yes, absolutely.  Is it common.   Enlightenment according to Vedanta is the removal of Self ignorance brought about by the understanding that the Self is limitless actionless awareness and that I am that Self.  I have met perhaps twenty enlightened people whose kundalini was not active in that it was not producing mind altering inner experiences.   I have also met many people who were having intense kundalini experiences…sometimes for many years…and who were actively seeking ways to turn the experience off because it was completely disrupting their lives.  You won't be able to accomplish anything solid or real in the world with this going on. It is too disturbing and it often has a strong negative impact on the people you come in contact with. You say and do things that make normal people think you are nuts.   And in a way you are. The spiritual world is full of peole who have had it going on for varying periods and it does not rise up and ‘mate' with Shiva and they stay unenlightened.   It just bounces around in the chakras. Shakti sadhanas can be very dangerous without the right teacher and the right karmic situation. 

It is also important to know that kundalini does not generate the same experiences for everyone.   It generates the experiences necessary to stimulate inquiry.   Certain people have developed very subtle minds as a result of the way they have lived.   So for these people the Self as kundalini awakens inquiry, leads them to a jnani, and their ignorance is removed by the non-dual teachings. Their enlightenment is in no way inferior to the people who have realized during or after an intense kundalini sadhana. Enlightenment is enlightenment; it has nothing to do with the way it came about. Ramana, for example, did not practice kundalini sadhana although his kundalini was obviously active; it produced his ‘death' experience.   He is an example of a yogi who had an inquiring mind and practiced vichara, Self inquiry, not kundalini sadhana.

Muktananda does say that enlightenment can only come through kundalini sadhana but he knew that this was not true.   He was very smart about psychology and he was trying to build a big religion…Siddha Yoga…and he knew for that purpose it does not help to give people too eclectic a view of enlightenment.  It just confuses them.  So he said it was the only way.  It is very much like the Christians who say Jesus is the only way.   Well, Jesus may be a 'way’…but the only way?   I don't think so.  The same with Kundalini.  It may work…there is no sense putting it down…but I would bet my last dollar that of all the enlightenments that happened since the beginning of time not more than one or two percent were the result of a classic kundalini sadhana.   Look at all the great enlightened people that have come out of Buddhism and other paths.  They they are not talking kundalini."

Spirituality / No-Mind Achievement in Meditation is a Misconception
« on: July 18, 2005, 08:47:06 PM »
When first starting the path of meditation, alot of seekers will turn to the classical sources of how to meditate. In the course of time, it is inevitable the novice will come across the concepts of no-mind as a 'goal' to achieve through meditation.

The classical concepts of no-mind typically involve the idea of 'the mind stopping' or 'ceasing its movements' or even 'dying.' The stalwart spiritual pilgrim sets out with the intention of stopping all mental action. And inevitably, they fail, as the mind is the most slippery of dragons. Feeling frustrated, the individual with potential falls the the wayside, and back into unconscious living patterns.

Yogi Patanjali, an ancient yogic master, describes yoga as 'ceasing of the modifications of the mind.'

Again, ceasing the modifications of the mind.

This means the awakened human needs to be able to identify mind stuff, and how mind modifies our reality through distorted misperceptions and half-truths. Literally attempting to cease the mind is itself sourced from an egoic mindset, and is a modification of mind.

What to Do?

An intuitive understanding of the creative principals of shiva and shakti (consciousness and energy) and what within us abides in which principal reveals how the mind can never cease its functioning.

Shiva is the realm of pure, witness consciousness where there is no doing, no action, - no duality, only pure observation. This is the realm of our soul, and the realm of pure manifestation and potentiality.

Shakti is the realm of energy, of movement, creation. Anything which changes is an aspect of Divine Kali, and is bound to death instantly during its birth.

This includes the thoughts which flow through us like a never ending, babbling brook. Thoughts are the realm of shakti, prakriti, illusion, and never ending energy movement and by attaching willpower to ceasing these thoughts, the seeker is placing themselves into conflicting duality, for the simple reason they have not only identified their being with thoughts, but also identified certain thoughts as 'bad' and as the 'cause of failure for not feeling meditative' and planting seeds of negativity, failure and guilt.

Meditators should cease attempts to stop their mental action.

Thoughts are energetic currents which can never truely be stopped. Even in the deepest states of samadhi, thought currents still operate. Just as our blood, nerve impulses, glandular systems operate during sleep, as do our mental neurons, synapses and other mental activities which unconsciously trigger thought.

The trick to meditation is being in witness consciousness, the state of being existing behind the mind. Its the buddi, the pure intellect, and the abode of 'shiva consciousness.'

A person who consistently abides within this inner space allows all aspects of chaotic change to flow around and through them, not touching their real being.

This is the space of meditation, and the meaning of 'no-mind', as you are in a state of being which is past the mind.

Instead of identifying with the mind objects, in the space the non-judging, internal witness consciousness is a non-participative observer, and is able to draw upon the deeper levels of subconscious experience gained from lifetimes of experience.

From this point of conscious being, the mind is no longer an enemy to be overcome in order to enter a meditative state.

Instead, this mode of being allows the mind to act on its own accord. Like a caged animal, it may run around, chase its tail, or do any number of wonderful side-show tricks. Witness consciousness may take the opportunies to view these tricks, which are really old habit patterns resurfacing, and to dissolve the patterns instantly and forever. Of course, the trick to witness consciousness is remembering to remain non-judging, non-participative, and to just observe _whatever_ comes up.

As the mind becomes more and more disciplined and accepting to the higher Self, like a trusted steward it gains more and more abilities to operate effectively, efficiently and powerfully in the external world. Overtime, thought objects we perceive as burdens are revealed as illusion, and fall away, leaving us constantly more and more capable to consciously act in full accordance and harmony with universal energy.

The more and more a person can remain in a meditative state of witness awareness, the greater the unfolding potentials in their life. The more truths about themself is revealed, aspects of manifest and unmanifest reality become known, and the sense of inner peace and conviction which dwells within the conscious meditator generates a field which benefits all life nearby.

Other / Re: kundalini and meditation
« on: July 14, 2005, 03:14:53 PM »
The symptoms? They can last anywhere from a week, to a month, to years (on and off).  It really depends on the persons personal development, and how much work is needed.

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