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Messages - Shankara

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There is one thing I've been curious of ever since the beginnning. What about the positive experiences of those of you who had bad experiences with the school? Do you any? If yes, could you share them with us too for a more balanced, objective and truthful perspective and tesitmony of your experience as a student, a member or a teacher? Thank you.

-I met my husband.  This one made everything worth it. :)
-I met some really good friends, better than any other friends I've ever had
-I experienced some past life memories that might not have come up without triggers from the teachers and other students.  Some of these I wouldn't have believed, but when I knew who other people were, it was easier for me to believe them.
-I felt pretty good after some of the transmissions (though they said that one transmission was equivalent to 2-3 years of your own evolution, and I never really felt anything different after a transmission, just during and maybe that night)
-I learned about Gurunath and Kriya Yoga (Ramose initiated me), and through Nath's organization, met another really good friend and spiritual mentor.
-I had some good meditation experiences (though I've had better ones doing Kriya, or even just stillness meditation).
-I liked some of the practices (Vital Force Accumulation especially, which I had never have done, even thought it's from IIH, and the Hekatonomai, of names of Dionysus.  This is online, but TDS took out some names, which they feel makes it more powerful)
-I've had some dreams where I met up with other students at a certain place and they remembered the same dream
-I heard a lot of fascinating stories about masters
-I got some ego boosts:  during one transmission I started hopping violently and afterwards was told by the head teachers and some other students that I levitated briefly.  I hadn't felt that, but I felt pretty cool thinking it happened.  During another transmission I started 'speaking in tongues' and afterwards Veos said it was an elven language and "was the most accurate spirit translation out of a human he's ever heard."  Now, both of these things make them look good too, but I must admit I felt pretty awesome when these things happened
-It felt really good to feel like I was part of an elite group of high souls who were very close to two masters.  For a while I really felt like my whole life had been leading up to this; it was incredibly fulfilling.  This lasted about a year from the time I first visited.
-I am glad I was introduced to the worship of the Greek pantheon (and the Egyptian one to a far lesser extent).  Though I still primarily worship the Hindu deities, I now feel close to several Greek deities as well.

This last one is long:

-I finally got rid of demon attachments that had bothering me my whole life.  This happened in a roundabout way.  I had seen demons (clairvoyantly, according to Veos) since I was a baby, while awake.  I also used to have terrifying, brain-breaking nightmares with them, maybe a couple times per year.  As a teenager, I was able to focus on God during one of these nightmares, woke up, and never had another one for 12 years, though I'd still see them while awake sometimes.  When I joined the school and started doing the VoA, the nightmares started again, but this time they happened a couple times per WEEK.  This was obviously very disturbing.  I asked my Probationer teacher, and he said to tell it "shooo." I tried to tell him that I needed a better solution, and I think he said he asked Ramose, but he basically said I was imagining things. I got scared and left the school for a few months, but then decided to join the next aspirant class. When I first visited, Veos told me it was a family curse. He said I couldn't get rid of them until I achieved Gnosis, but I would see them less as I did the meditations and purified my energy.  He also said that when I started the probationer class, he and Ramose had been in my room every night the first week clearing out hoards of demons (they say they clear demons from all the new probationers), but they kept coming back (I guess because of the curse).  That kind of made me mad, because if that were the case, why didn't Ramose tell my teacher that when he asked him, rather than make me think it was all in my head?

I was OK with this explanation, though the nightmares continued.  When I started practicing the Triadic Projection several months later, I could not get through the practice without seeing the demons very clearly.  It was terrifying.  I told Ramose and he said that the practice was clearing out negativity (I can't remember the exact words he used), and to keep doing it, but to fight, to "shoot death rays out of my eyes at them."  I tried this, and I suppose it worked a little, but it was still terrifying and kept getting worse it seemed the more I practiced it.  I told him about it again, and this time he said I hadn't had any demons for a long time, but I was just attached to the idea of having them, and my mind was creating the images.  At this point I'm still having the weekly nightmares.  Eventually I stopped doing the practice, because it doesn't seem to be helping, and I dreaded doing it. 

This reached a climax when, a little over a year after I first started visiting, my (now) husband found me in the midst of a demonic possession. He emailed Ramose about it:



As you can see, Ramose's advice was basically that it's mostly psychological, and to just tell me everything is taken care of even if it wasn't.  There were no real solutions or techniques given other that that.  I'll also point out that I never had any kind of possession happen prior to being in TDS.  Another thing of note: the banishing that my husband did was never taught to me nor any other students that I know of, besides maybe the Daskaloi.  My husband happened to have read books on Hermetics before TDS officially started.  I, however, came from a mostly an Eastern meditation background, and had never learned any ritual.  I do think if I had been taught some banishing practices that would have helped me tremendously.  The closest practice to banishing they taught me was the Aegis, which clears yourself but not the room.  Now they supposedly have done a lot of rituals and have evoked demons and can master demons, so I think when they knew I was dealing with demons, especially when they told me I had to fight them myself, they should have given me more tools to do so.

By the time I left the school, I was still having the horrifying nightmares a couple times per week.  Every night I tried to delay sleep because I was scared of what I'd to see.  When I would awaken after a nightmare they would continue to bother me; it would take 20 minutes to get rid of them.  After 3.5 years in the school, the nightmares hadn't gotten any better.

A couple months after I left the school I asked the spiritual mentor I mentioned from Gurunath's organization for help with these nightmares.  He gives me a detailed exorcism to do for a month, and also assisted me spiritually from a distance.  By the end of the month, the nightmares decreased to once per month or so.  A few months later, I told my Sufi Shaykh (I was initiated in December 2014) about the nightmares, and received a simple daily practice to do, which continued to lessen the nightmares to the point they are pretty much nonexistent.  The nightmares happened less and less often and became less and less intense, and now I feel like they are gone, or will be gone very soon.  Not only that, but I don't see them while awake anymore, which I did before I joined the school.  So, in a roundabout way, I did clear the demons I'd been dealing with. 

I don't know what the real story was, but I'm glad to be rid of them now.  I wish I didn't have to go through years of feeling like I wasn't being heard or helped, and I wish I hadn't had to go through years of the demon attachment getting much worse before it got better.  After leaving I got help within 6 months from 2 different guides, both of whom helped tremendously, and neither of whom blamed me nor doubted me at all.

I'm sure some good came out of the increase in demonic activity after joining the school. I think I progressed spiritually by having to deal with such terrifying experiences; It felt like I basically looked at the source of fear in the face regularly for 3.5 years.  Before joining the school, I had been looking for help with these for a long time, and never could find any answers.  I think the fact that it got so intense made my search more productive. I am REALLY glad that this issue has been taken care of for me.

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Is Sweetheart really ****? Why did you call yourself Sweetheart?

*EDIT*

I was present when Ramose and Veos sent **** to this same practitioner, because they thought she could help.

I guess we're not allowed to use first names anymore. My intention was to point out that Sweetheart is one of the top students in the school and has taught some of the lower classes for about 3 years now. This way, prospective students can see what someone who might be teaching them is like.

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Voting Forum / Re: Vote: New Rule: Advertisement of External Groups
« on: October 16, 2015, 07:51:30 AM »
I agree with the rule with the modifications that Shinichi proposed.

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This is just to reiterate what I've mentioned before about the mountain temple.  This is from their current public site, though this page apparently hasn't been updated since 2012:

https://thedivinescience.com/charge-membership-dues

This site is sometimes down, so I've linked an image of a screen shot taken today:

http://imgur.com/a/kPiXZ

Let me highlight some quotes:

"We will, however, answer one very important question. “Where does the money go?”
If we were not building something, if we were not dedicated to creating something huge, the hierophants would not have ever charged for these teachings."

"This goal is to create a powerful physical school and temple for this lineage in the west, complete with monastic living quarters, living halls for students who want to spend extended lengths of time around the adepts and the hierophants, lecture halls, and retreat options in a pristine mountain paradise ranging hundreds of acres within the mists of the Appalachian Mountain Range. It would be a second home for any student, and a place where they could come for both intensive periods of personal training as well as rest and relaxation. With such an important goal of mind, it is our school’s philosophy that it is the duty of every student benefiting from it to contribute to it and helps it growth. If the school has given something powerful and important to you, then it is your duty to make sure it can give that to others as well. This absolute goal is the only reason that there are monthly dues of $25 in the Aspirant Flow, why fundraising retreats are held twice a year, why the Aspirant Class costs $100, etc."

"This absolute goal is the only reason that there are monthly dues of $25 in the Aspirant Flow, why fundraising retreats are held twice a year, why the Aspirant Class costs $100, etc."

"As we make advancements towards this in 2012, we will update the website with sketches for proposed models of the temple quarters (The Telesterion) and property, and hopefully by the end of the year will be accepting donations through the website, as well as a chart indicating our progress towards the minimum’s required to get the project rolling."


So, it's not only that fundraisers, events, and donations specifically for the mountain temple go to the school, but they're are claiming that the ONLY reason they charge for ANYTHING (including monthly dues and the $100 for the aspirant class) is to raise money for this temple.

Now as of 2014 there were no charts or graphs showing how much money they've raised, nor were their any sketches posted of the mountain temple and grounds. I'm not a member of their current site.  Perhaps someone who is can tell me if they have posted these things on their current site, and, if so, post screen shots here?  I'm sure TDS wouldn't mind if you shared these, as it would benefiting the school to show that they are being transparent and are putting the money they are raising towards this temple, which they have claimed they are doing. 

They're gaining new students (the public site is essentially a recruitment website) by claiming that they money being charged is being put towards this temple.  It's almost the end of 2015. There have been many aspirant classes, and many months of aspirant flow classes since this article was posted.  There have been many gatherings, retreats, workshops, and shop items sold. There have probably been donations made specifically to the temple, using the button I posted an image of earlier.  Surely they can publish their records/charts of the funds saved?


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The Cafeteria / Re: Word Association
« on: October 14, 2015, 02:16:33 PM »
Regeneration

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"Two of the ex-teachers, who are using this position to get more authority in their criticism, had barely been around us for over two years." - Prophecy/Ramose

Hmmm I'm not quite sure how to read this.  Is he saying that they'd only been around him for a little over two years?  Or that they hadn't been around for over two years before leaving?

If it's the former, that is obviously untrue.  I asked my husband when he first met them, and he said it was the day that Halo 2 came out; they played it together at a party.  It was released November 9, 2004.  The last retreat we went to was in May 2014, and we continued to see the head teachers afterwards.  He didn't officially leave until December 2014 or January 2015.  During those 10 years he lived with Ramose in two apartments, the "Alachua house" and the current temple. He also lived with Veos briefly.

If Ramose meant he hadn't been around in over two years, I don't think that's accurate either.  We moved three hours away in September of 2014.  We started to distance ourselves purposely a little before that, in June of 2014. Before that, in 2014, he was the Flow B teacher, he put together and lead a thought control workshop that was for Flow A and Flow B students, he maintained the website, he gave almost daily distance transmissions to students who connected to him and the school's seal through the TDS Facebook page, we visited on visiting days when we could (they permitted us to bring the baby to those if we made sure he wasn't loud), we went to the May retreat in North Carolina, and we visited Veos' home regularly to attend the astrology lectures.

I'm guessing he's referring to the fact that no, we couldn't visit as much because we had a son.  They changed their policies for gatherings.  It had used to be that locals only paid $20 or $30, which was doable as we went every month and weren't making much money.  People also came and went, sometimes they slept at the temple but sometimes they slept at home.  This changed in I think (not exactly sure) the Summer of 2013, basically right before our son was born.  The prices increased to $100 (so $200 for the both of us), and people were required to stay there the whole time and spend the night.  This was not possible with a baby. 

The only reason we were able to go to the May 2014 retreat in NC was because we were able to have our own hotel room.  However, we were told we were not allowed to bring our son to ANY of the lectures or activities at the building they were held.  So one of us had to stay in the hotel room at all times. 

They were not exactly welcoming to families. We were pretty much the only family in the school that I know of (there were some other married couples without children).  Amongst the local group there were only people dating (I'd say 80% of the local students had been with 2-3 other local students. 'Partner swapping' was the norm). We were the odd ones out being married with a child.  Outside of the local group, there were other students with children, but their spouses weren't involved, so the student could come alone while the spouse watched the child/ren. We didn't have a choice; they wouldn't allow us to be around them much once our son was born.

They will advise students against getting a girlfriend, because it distracts from the path.  They say that Trillis' girlfriend stole him away.  I've heard from multiple students that they say I "stole Aischias away" (and even that I "ruined his life") which is strange, seeing that when we started dating I was an active member of the school and I wished to remain so.  But they were angry when we started dating, and acted like my husband betrayed them and I was a seductress.  We didn't want to be around them as much when they treated us that way; can you blame us?  Yet we tried to fight these feelings and remained as active in the school as we could, including going to.

Now I will address something that I have heard from at least five students, probably more.  They are telling people that they paid my husband $2000 for a website they never received.  They did pay $2000 for him to build a website.  This was third the website he built for them; the first two he did for free.  He charged them for the latest one because he had a family and couldn't afford to sacrifice paying work for no money.  Normally a website like he made them would cost over $10,000.  He works as a web developer and  mobile app developer at a web company now, and those are the typical prices for websites and apps of that degree of complexity. Also, Veos told him they didn't want him to design the site because he was a horrible designer. So they said one of the more artistic Daskalos would design it.

The original agreement was that he was going to program the site, and another Daskalos was going to design it.  It was a very advanced and unique classroom system, using the latest technology. He built it from the ground up, customizing it exactly for the needs of TDS. He completed his end of the deal, except for a few minor features, but the site wasn't close to done yet because it wasn't designed. When he shared it with the other Daskalos, that Daskalos was not familiar with this system, and thought he could buy a template. My husband tried to explain to him that it was a unique system and that couldn't be done.  Many emails were exchanged, and it was getting nearer to the time it was supposed to be finished (the end of 2014).  Eventually, my husband offered to design it himself, to stop the back-and-forth between him and the other Daskalos, as it was wasting a lot of time and causing a lot of aggravation.  This was in October 2014. 

He began designing it, and by this point he didn't want to be part TDS anymore, but didn't make it official yet.  In November or December Veos emailed him, asking him when the website would be done, saying that he's not surprised it's late, which seemed a little disrespectful considering how much work my husband was doing for them for almost nothing. He replied by asking him for patience, and told him that he's spending a lot of time (all the hours he was putting in made the $2000 average out to about $5 an hour) on a website for an organization whose business practices and the way they treat their students he disagrees with.

Once he said that, they didn't want him part of the site anymore.  He offered to just let them take over by giving them what he created and programmed (which was the original agreement), and to teach Teleson and Ramose how to use the system.  We drove three hours (one way) to Gainesville just so he could teach them.  When he got to Teleson's house, Ramose didn't even bother to show up, so he taught Teleson alone, who seemed to understand the system and like it.  This was in January 2015.

For whatever reasons, they decided to make a whole new website, even though they have had the one he made for them since January that was finished.  They probably made a new site so they could feel like they understood their own website better (since he wouldn't be their web maintainer as he used to), and to make sure he didn't have any part of it, which is understandable.  It wouldn't so good to have a new website and have to tell everyone that an ex-Daskalos made it.  However, they've been acting like they had to make a new one because he never finished it. But just to be clear, they never asked for their money back. They never told him they didn't think he completed it. Everyone who saw it said they really liked it (including Ramose, Veos, and multiple Daskaloi). They just started telling their students otherwise to discredit him after he left. 

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Akenu- They haven't contacted me. The only threats I received were threats of bad karma. They got their girlfriend (Facebook) and our mutual Kriya friend who they've called their "spiritual older brother" to contact me.  The latter was concerned about the drama but told me that sometimes you have to be a "warrior for righteousness" as long as you're doing everything out of compassion and not anger, even if the actions might look the same). They both said that Ramose and Veos told them they are very sad (trying to get their sympathy) and how I'm making up lies about them (false). Neither has read the thread, they were just told things by Ramose and Veos. 

Speaking of students contacting me, we received a phone call from Teleson Daskalos today, who asked us not to share the video I talked about.  As its my husband's video, he makes the decision as to whether or not to share it.  After the call he decided not to. He is a little worried about possible legal action (we're not sure what the laws are, but it's not worth the risk to our family). So I apologize that I won't be able to share the video with those who've asked for it.

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It was on Facebook.  I doubt the person has even read this thread, or has an account here.  Ramose and Veos are complaining to people about me and getting them to contact me about this. Some of them have been very nice, but the one on Facebook was not.

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There seems to be some outrage here from current students about former students posting their experiences.  Not from everyone, of course, but from some.  I've gotten private messages from students attacking me, and I know others have too.  I have not only related only truthful things, but I have withheld many things that are only known to a few people, so that I can make sure I only say things that can be verified by many (things that happened at gatherings, for instance). Yet still I am getting hate mail, so I see I need to better illustrate my reasons for speaking out, and show that it's not an attempt to destroy the school because of ill feelings.

To clearly explain my motivations, let me point to the words of Prophecy/Ramose himself from the "Going to join the AMORC" thread: 

I am sorry, but if you are a magical Order, then you claim the right to guide hopeful aspirants on the path to the Divine Light (since the orders I mentioned all claim to be hermetic in paradigm).  Claiming that right, which is the greatest of responsibilities, they must be subject to the most severe criticisms when they waiver or behave immaturely.  Considering the incredible responsibility they claim to take up, I think I am in fact far too gentle in my criticisms.  Also, I believe it is the responsibility of those who are aware of the shortcomings of various groups to make them known to those considering pursuing those groups.  To illustrate this, I believed it was my responsibility, seeing a flaw in the way these Orders were operating, to point them out to those reading this thread.

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Quote
And as for whether money are collected to support twins' lifestyles or not... Didn't they get a little bit fat?

Really?

Because the only way to put on weight is to gorge yourself on expensive food paid for with money stolen from the piggy bank, right? As opposed to, I dunno, toning back an extensive martial arts and yogic regime to make more time for teaching, writing and running a school? Or a massive variety of other things that can result in putting on a few extra kilos.

This caricature like portrait you're trying to paint of the twins is going from funny to sad.

True Story: multiple times at gatherings they said (though probably mostly in jest...I hope) that the reason they got fat (their words) is because they took on so much of their students' karma! :D

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You see, they are actually going against Gurunath’s teachings. They will always say Gurunath supports them, but once again this is a lie. If anything they are going through that ego syndrome as mentioned here as they are not supposed to be teaching at all. I have been initiated into the Kriya. I did receive their pamphlet and when I saw these 2 pages, I begin to think that everything they said about Gurunath supporting them is also a lie. I would love to meet Gurunath someday to confirm my suspicion. But for now this is the best I can do. No one is exempted from the pamphlet, I do know people in HYS, and I know that quite a few of them can't stand Ramose and Veos, due to the what the pamphlet speaks of. 

I've met Gurunath three times.  The first time was at a private home in New Jersey.  I had time to talk with him a bit as at that time the only people in the room were me, my husband, 2 other students, and Gurunath. We told him that we were "Chris and Dan's" students from Florida.  We were expecting him to recognize those names, as we'd been told how close they are to him, but he didn't.  Yes, they are Hamsacharyas, but there are hundreds of those.  They are not Kriyacharyas, which is the higher level. 

I found out about Gurunath not from Ramose and Veos, but by seeing on facebook that many of the students were posting things about him.  I looked him up and on his site I see Ramose and Veos listed on the site as teachers (they've since requested that HYS take down their information and photos, though they still did initiations in Tampa and Orlando as of 2014).  I was shocked because they never mentioned this teacher at all, and also because it was obviously a public teacher who wants students and comes to the US every year.  He actually says he wants everyone to do the Kriya. 

I asked a TDS student about Gurunath, and it got back to Ramose.  The next time I went to a gathering, Ramose took me outside alone as soon as I got there.  I was told that I had to choose; if I wanted to follow Gurunath I'd have to leave the school. They're supposed to be teachers of Kriya yoga, representatives of Gurunath, yet they're telling me I can't follow him?  I understand if it has to be kept separate from the school, but to forbid me from following him outside the school is ridiculous.  Especially because they had most of the Flow A students get initiated into Gurunath's organization, but now it's a forbidden topic.  I told him I chose TDS, and he asked me not to tell any other students about Gurunath.  Gurunath actually visited Florida in 2013.  Only the Daskaloi and I were 'allowed' to go see him.  There were other local students who had been initiated into the Kriya, but they weren't even told about it.  We didn't tell anyone because they made it sound like it was a extremely private gathering.  When we got to the home where Gurunath was giving the lecture, we realized that although it was not an official event (so it wasn't on the website), all the initiates from Orlando knew about it and were invited. There were a lot of people there; there were probably initiates from all over Florida.  There was no reason to keep it a secret from the TDS students who were Kriya initiates.   

As far as them not listening to him, when they came back from his ashram in India in 2013, Ramose told us that Gurunath asked them to stop giving transmissions, so they were going to stop.  They did...for a month or two. Then they resumed. They did stop giving Shaktipat ("opening of the mouth") for a while (maybe they still don't give it).  They say they merged it with Shivapat ("opening of the eye").  They did this before they went to India, because at the Fall 2012 retreat the transmission got out of control.  People were crying and frightened.  Veos admitted he lost control of that transmission.  So they stopped doing such intense ones after that.  They will also talk down about Gurunath, calling him "a racist old man." They basically make it sound like they have a Yoga teacher, a Taoist teacher, a Sufi teacher, etc., all just to get the initiatory lineages, but that they are greater than their teachers in a lot of ways because they are "Fountains," which means that they reignite a lineage from nothing (I'm not sure of the exact wording of the definition).  They say they learned almost nothing from Gurunath, besides "how to be a teacher," but actually an incredible amount of the 'secret' teachings they give during lectures are straight out of Gurunath's books and Youtube videos.

Someone might try to say they are an exception to the rules in that pamphlet that People's Champion posted.  But I have a video from 2008 or 2009 where Ramose and Veos are talking to the Daskaloi and a few visitors.  In it they say that Kriya yoga is the ONLY technique you will ever need.  They go on to tell them that they aren't ready yet, that maybe in 6 months they'll be ready to get initiated.  This is ridiculous, anyone can be initiated at any time.  They also say that Gurunath will be their parama-guru, and they (Ramose and Veos) will be their gurus (totally against the instructions of Gurunath, as People's Champion has posted).  At the end of the video, taken during the same weekend, Ramose is making a video privately to send to HYS.  There was a contest where people sent in videos to win a trip to Mahashivaratri in India with Gurunath.  In that video Ramose mentions his 'ashram' but says that he is NOT a guru, just "someone a little farther ahead on the path." Completely different then what they were actually telling their students, and shows that they do not have special rules that apply to them, or he would not have lied in the video.  In case you were wondering, he didn't win the trip. 

Also, watching the video now, it's obvious that what they were lecturing on was from Gurunath's book on Bababji ("Lightening Standing Still").  No one there had read the book yet, and were taking furious notes, as Ramose and Veos were acting like this was their own knowledge.  I might be able to post the video if someone wants to see it, but it's not mine and the person that owns it is trying to stay out of all this.  I could probably do it privately if someone is interested. 

12
I also want to ask about the money being charged and where it's going.  When I first visited the temple almost 4 years ago exactly, Veos said that we'd all be moving up to Tennessee in about 4 years, possibly five.  Four years have now gone by; how far along are they on saving up for this temple?  I don't begrudge them for charging dues, but since I joined they are charging more money for gatherings (originally $50, $20 for locals because many of us moved there so we could go to gatherings regularly and most were "financially impaired," now it's $100 for everyone), more for retreats (originally $300, now $450 with an 'optional $50 donation'), and they also take in money for workshops, for astrological readings, for herbal remedies, for the fundraiser blog, as well as for talismans, beads, and other TDS shop products.  Additionally some students send them monthly donations.  I know of one student who was sending them $1000 every month, and another who was sending them $400-$500 monthly.

They often talk about building the grand temple in the mountains. When they advertise for the retreats they mention that it is a fundraiser (partially) for the mountain temple.  There is a donation button on the site specifically to donate to the mountain temple:

http://imgur.com/2w3IMfm
 
Of course there are living expenses and temple upkeep (though no payment to the daskaloi who teach the classes, which is a huge part of the school), but after years of talking about this temple, where is the evidence it's ever going to happen? If people are donating using that button, there should definitely be some money set aside specifically for the mountain temple, and that should be made public.

A fellow student told me back in the Spring of 2013 that he suggested to Ramose and Veos that they put a graph up (like a thermometer) showing the progress being made towards the temple.  That never happened, and I haven't seen any transparency whatsoever about where the money is going, or if they are making progress on buying land.

13
he came to the school with acute, debilitating psychological problems, erratic mood swings and the like, which have colored his experience within The Divine Science from day one.

You state these things as if they are verified facts, but unless you're a psychologist who has evaluated him, you don't actually know any of this.  You do seem quite convinced, and I think it's because Ramose and Veos told you all these things.  Because you believe in them so strongly, you accept what they say as fact.  I've heard outright lies said about all the locals who have left, and those lies came from the Hierophants. Most of the current students believe these things without question, and then state them as fact, without even realizing they are spreading falsehoods.  I still talk to a lot of the students, and I've heard some pretty crazy things that have been said about me.

Regarding the rumors about past incarnations of the head teachers and the like:

I have to say that much of that is simply rumor. While TDS does hold to the doctrine of reincarnation, much of the talk about specific past lives is just speculation based on people's dream experiences or resemblances to certain pictures and the like -- things that can't be verified. There is a bit of a cult of personality around the teachers, as I said before, and I've heard people say "I think Ramose was this person" or "I've heard Veos was that person" but I've never heard them make any official pronouncements about such things, or read anything where they said they were this person or that person.

Oh, come on now.  If you're a local and were there when they used to have locals-only retreats (and if you are who I think you are then you were), you know they talked openly about their past incarnations as Crowley and Mathers. I believe them because I started having dreams about Crowley when I got accepted into the school, which was confusing because I had no idea of the connection at the time and was not interested in Thelema.

You also know that many of the closer students were also supposedly part of the early Golden Dawn and AA. This was all very exciting, and made us feel like we were part of an elite group of high souls on a multi-lifetime mission. But this knowledge was sometimes used against the students; according to TDS many students "betrayed" them by rebelling in the Golden Dawn or breaking magical oaths. This idea was used to make the students feel more obliged to the teachers, as if they had a debt to pay.  Even the student who was supposedly Paul Foster Case was made to feel guilty for 'rebelling' against Moina (who is also supposed to be in the school).  I remember during one gathering when I first started visiting, Veos told some of us that PF Case was student in the school, and that during that lifetime he rebelled against his teacher and went insane.  I don't agree with that perspective; I think Veos just had a personal issue with that student, probably because of lifetimes of conflict between them. 

That also sheds new light on Prophecy making disparaging remarks about Case in the old thread "Going to join the AMORC." He thought that Case being disloyal to Moina, and that he basically stole all of his teachings from MacGregor Mathers. That is certainly a matter for debate, but Prophecy is biased on this topic because he claims he IS Mathers, and he's also extremely close to the supposed current incarnation of Moina (admittedly I'm also biased because I'm extremely close to the supposed current incarnation of PF Case). He also seemed to disbelieve that Case met St. Germain, but I was there when Ramose told us that he himself had met St. Germain at the local shopping mall! He said he didn't speak to him, but he did see him and somehow knew it was him. They stared at each other; he had a long coat and tan skin, and I think he mentioned a ring too. So apparently the idea of meeting St. Germain isn't so far-fetched after all. I think it's obvious in the post how negatively he felt about Paul Foster Case and how much he looked down on him, to the point that another poster had to step in and point out his errors. Now this was written at a time when the current incarnation of Case was one of Ramose's closest students. His perspective on the past definitely colored his view of the student in the present (IMO). The student was absolutely made to feel bad for it.

One of my friends had a memory of being Florence Farr and she felt so guilty about it.  I think it definitely made her feel worse about herself, mainly because they made it seem like anyone who turned against Mathers in the Golden Dawn had done a horrible thing (even though Crowley and Mathers fought against each other too). She told me she would never want to 'betray' her teacher again, which of course has made her feel very reluctant to leave or even question them, even though she has had issues with the school from time to time. 
   
The fact that Mathers and Crowley did treat their students, friends, and lovers badly (at least some of the time) wasn't acknowledged; it was all the fault of the students for rebelling. For three students I know of, their problems in this life were blamed on them breaking oaths or rebelling in the past. The closest Ramose and Veos came to explaining their actions was to say that there had to be conflict during that life because all the negative karma would ensure we were brought back during this lifetime, the jewel incarnation (and yes, I've heard them say if you leave them in the jewel incarnation you'll be cursed with many lifetimes of no teacher). Another explanation I heard once was when Veos blamed Crowley's misdeeds on him having Cagliostro's astral body, which ruled his emotions.  He said Cagliostro now had the Crowley's negative karma, not him.  I disagree, however, because so many important people in Crowley's life are now with Veos, not Cagliostro, showing that he is responsible for that karma. 

I don't think Mathers or Crowley were evil or anything, but I don't think they were perfect masters either.  I think they often hurt people and were prone to lying and exaggerating for self-promotion, even if they also displayed legitimate powers and achieved some high states.  I think there are teachers out there with fewer red flags, especially if you want purely spiritual evolution.  I do understand that if you are interested in magic, the idea of learning from them is alluring.  However, in the 3.5 years I was in the school, I didn't learn any rituals; it was mostly mysticism and theory.  Those who'd been in the school for 5-6 years (Flow A) didn't learn any ritual either.  I've heard they are implementing a new system where there will be more focus on magic, so maybe that will be a better fit for what many students are looking for.

14
I'm about to post a message from one of the former students I mentioned who have left. His name is Beka and he's from the Netherlands (English is not his first language). I asked him if he wanted to post here, as he posted on the Facebook thread quite a bit before it all got deleated. He didn't want to make an account here but he did want to tell his story, so he wrote this up and gave me permission to post it here. He was my fellow student in the Aspirant Flow B class and I met him when he visited the temple. I didn't change or edit anything and these are his words, not mine. 

Here is his post:
----------------------------------------------

I was a part of the school for four years. Some nasty four years in my opinion. I will keep it short and to the point. There are a lot of things about TDS that are questionable. I've visited their location in Florida twice.

The teachers offered me remedies. One in the form of astrological remedy, which I had to do daily. This had no effect on my life whatsoever. The other was herbal remedies. As I did my practices with the utmost of effort and discipline, my health started to decline. One of the teachers perscribed me herbs, which I took for over a year. After about 6 months I told them that it probably had a negative effect on me, because my health kept declining and I was getting more and more exhausted, but the teacher said to just keep taking them. So after a year of taking these herbs, I was utterly fed up and sent him a message about it, to which he replied to finally stop taking it if it had a bad effect on me. He also said I should've been grateful that he even considered to help me with his herbs. Also, I forgot to mention, in the same time he also gave me a different set of herbs that messed up my sex drive, it was bizzare, that's all I can say. When I stopped taking that, I turned back to normal. But when I stopped taking the herbs (which I took for over a year), the ''getting clean'' part was difficult and lasted a month or so, because I think my body was so used to taking that stuff for an extended period of time that it had to readjust itself to normal.

As you can see, they have little to no idea what they are doing when they are trying to help people. I've heard from other people that whatever they perscribed did work. Thus, you can gauge their level of knowledge as not being reliable, and in fact can be quite dangerous.

Now for the psychological aspect of the school. For this reason alone should you be on your guard if you are planning to join as a new recruit. For the simple fact that they use subtle psychological ways of influencing you. I will try to explain here what I mean by that. Anyone who knows anything about Implicit Marketing will know what I'm talking about. With implicit marketing, or implicit remarks, you are trying to convey something, a product or an idea, by telling a story from which people can come to the conclusion by themselves that it is indeed a good product or idea.  With implicit use of conveying you are not directly telling what you want to the person, but you are doing it in an indirect way. It is more sublte this way, hence the potency. If you are telling something indirectly, you are making people think for themselves that they want to buy into what you are offering.

Thus, when you join the school, you have to understand that you are seeking something after all, whether it is love or God or whatever you want to call it. You are missing something, that's why you seek, correct? So, once you join the school they will use implicit stories to fill that void you have. And you have to udnerstand that a lot of people that are a part of that school are broken people, coming from broken families, etc. So this will work more powerfully on a person like that.

What you will hear is all sorts of stories about the head teachers and the sub teachers, and most of the time, you will not hear it coming out of their mouths, instead you will hear it coming from other people. For it is much more powerful to have other people talk greatly about you than for you to talk greatly about yourself. Do you see how implicit (indirect) they are working on you?

You will hear stuff like how Ramose and Veos are reincarnations of MacGregor Mather and Aleister Crowley, respectively. And other such incarnations of highly evolved beings such as John Dee and whatnot, and even some historical figures, such as prominent figures from ancient times like Ancient China and Sparta. You will also hear how great the sub teachers are, and of course, they are also reincarnations of very high beings, and they fit perfectly into the stories of Crowley, Mathers, etc. This is what they are saying, I'm not making this up. So immediately, the mind of a seeker of spiritual knowledge gets hooked into the greatness of the teachers. But it doesn't end there, no no. They go beyond that; they say how grand and ancient the lineage is, how many great masters were part of that lineage such as Franz Bardon, Plato, Socarates, etc. That the teachers are always in contact with the Great White Brotherhood, and other great beings from high spiritual planes. And somehow...these stories end up being gossiped about, to make it more potent, because like I said, it is much more powerful to have other people talk about your greatness. It's like you get social proof from other people telling you, so you feel more comfortable to accept that idea. They say themselves that they are implanting a ''seed'' inside of you the moment you begin their meditations.

And once they are done doing that, they want you to think highly of yourself, because it isn't enough for only them just to be great. No, they will say that everyone who is a part of that school is a ''High Soul'' - a being very much evolved, much more so than the majority of the people of the world. And how their system works much better than other systems of magic and mysticism. That Franz Bardon's IIH was somehow meant to direct recruits to their school. So naturally, with everything being said, it is very easy to believe in them as a newcomer.

They say some ridiculous stuff. For example Ramose once said he climbed a water tower and meditated upon it. A Daskalos confronted him about it , because he knew it was  a lie, to which Ramose agreed that yes it was a lie. All this childish stuff. It's nonsensical. They have delusions of grandure, those people. I've heard from one of their ex-disciples that the teachers and sub-teachers compare these lies to the lies God, so that they do it for the greater good. They compare it to the lie God tells by creating an illusionary world. I would be very careful with these people.

The people that are a part of the school have already fallen into their pitfall of psychological influence. It is incredibly difficult to leave, because the longer you are there, the longer you have been conditioned into their nonsense. Thus your attachment to them grows stronger and stronger. The people already there love the teachers too much, so much so that they sugarcoat the negative aspects.

The teachers will say stuff like how they want you to become like a spiritual lion, but it's nonse because a lot of people's progress and character development are dependant on the teachers. They also show it in their mannerism and I've seen how people react and act in their presence. It's a mental and emotional crutch and they will never become ''lions'' as they so boldly claim they are. That is their pitfall. And if you ever leave the school, they will say you are misguided, that you've made a mistake, and that you werent ''ready'' for their teachings. What a joke. So just the idea of leaving the school will make you feel very insecure, because all the arrows are seemingly pointing towards the teachers and their system being the true way to development. You will feel very conflicted,and it's only natural because you've spent so much belief, faith, and energy into something that is actually nonsense, and part of your identity was associated with the school.

It was difficult for me too when I left. But after a while I managed to make progress on my own in a relatively short time, and I didn't need to be part of some grand and ancient lineage to do that. Once I made progress by myself, I laughed those TDS nonsense away, because I did in 6 months by myself what I couldn't do in four years during my stay at the school. And if I can do it, so can you.

Once you pierce through the veil of illusion presented, you can only laugh at TDS. There is no need to be part of such a school, but if you are curious and still want to check them out, be careful of the pitfalls.

The amount of gossip that goes on in that school is absolutely ridiculous. People there use and abuse each other, and then hide behind hypocritical terms such as brotherly and sisterly love. It's all a bunch of bullshit. There are so many social intrigues...

Their argument for that is that it's all karma, and because everyone in the school is such a ''high Soul'' it is only natural that gossip and the like occurs. In fact, they say this occurs in many spiritual schools, where students use and abuse others to get favors from the teachers, etc. I mean...sigh...if this is true, then why in the world would you want to be part of something like that? There is no need to go a designated spot simply to suffer abuse and the like...you can already get the same bullshit from the secular society. So why accept such childishness?

I could go on, but this will suffice. I think it is important to lay out the truth so you can make a decisions yourself. I wish you all the best.

15
If you're considering joining the school, ask yourself how you view Mathers and Crowley.  Do you see them as enlightened adepts?  Egomaniacs? Ipsissimi? Users and abusers? Powerful magicians? Demon conjurers? Charismatic Liars/Exaggerators? Brilliant scholars?  Controlling Dictators? Members of the Great White Brotherhood? Maybe some combination of the above?

Some people love them (look at all the Thelemites and Golden Dawn orders out there), some people hate them, and some people think they're a mixed bag. The reason I'm saying this is because what you get with Prophecy and Veos is exactly what you would get with Mathers and Crowley (besides the heroin :P), for better or worse.

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