The Veritas Society

The Auditorium => Main Hall => Topic started by: Searcher2 on June 11, 2017, 06:11:22 AM

Title: My oh my we are a sad little place
Post by: Searcher2 on June 11, 2017, 06:11:22 AM
Now I wonder why this is?
Title: Re: My oh my we are a sad little place
Post by: Aunt Clair on July 17, 2017, 09:12:20 PM
Namaste Searcher,
 :elephant: :elephant: :elephant: :elephant:
Title: Re: My oh my we are a sad little place
Post by: Searcher2 on July 19, 2017, 12:57:17 PM
And felicitations to you AC, nobody else on here wants to talk to me!
Title: Re: My oh my we are a sad little place
Post by: kirolak on August 11, 2017, 06:28:55 AM
I also wonder why this dynamic, exciting forum has lost so much impetus?  It is clearly our (members) fault. . . including mine,    :redface: as I withdrew from interaction for a few years.  There is so much wisdom here, & so many well written articles,  but many threads are old. 
Title: Re: My oh my we are a sad little place
Post by: kirolak on August 11, 2017, 11:18:42 PM
What a sad waste , Rayn - you have made so many deep, insightful posts. . . I do hope you reconsider!
Title: Re: My oh my we are a sad little place
Post by: Kemetin on September 09, 2017, 07:44:54 PM
Message boards in general are a dying medium, this place in particular lost momentum a long time ago as older members moved onto other interests and weren't replaced by newer members. All of the drama didn't help.
Title: Re: My oh my we are a sad little place
Post by: delusionsofgranduer on September 10, 2017, 07:13:12 PM
I think this whole situation is sort of sad.  I found this board right after it became less active so there was no one really to talk to.  I like going back and looking at the archived posts; some of them are really interesting.  If anyone knows any other good board for metaphysics/psi let me know.  Most of what I could find was woo.  :(
Title: Re: My oh my we are a sad little place
Post by: Tricky on September 12, 2017, 06:31:31 AM
Ever since psipog died the OEC's as a whole started to die down after that. I feel like it had something to do with it. Psipog always brought newbies into the scene. People are getting older though and just have totally different lives.. I don't even practice psi anymore hardly I just meditate.
Title: Re: My oh my we are a sad little place
Post by: Hellblazer on September 14, 2017, 06:27:40 AM
The occult communities need to die. There is no truth in the subject. Its a clever lie that people desperate for meaning in their lives attach themselves to. Its a waste of time, such a terrible waste of time and life. Regrettable really.
Title: Re: My oh my we are a sad little place
Post by: Akenu on September 14, 2017, 06:37:40 AM
The occult communities need to die. There is no truth in the subject. Its a clever lie that people desperate for meaning in their lives attach themselves to. Its a waste of time, such a terrible waste of time and life. Regrettable really.

It depends on what you do. If you pursue the "fairy stuff of legends", sure you will be dissatisfied in the end.

With that said, there is a certain merit in occult practices and in the history of mankind. Grimoires are a perfect representation of the mind of our ancestors as these books promise what they wanted to achieve in life, how to better understand the mind of the man than through his desires?

Unfortunately occultism is a little bit too broad discipline and yes, a lot of BS is contained within and despite that Psionics wanted to begin with a clean shield, they are guilty of the same problem.
Title: Re: My oh my we are a sad little place
Post by: Hellblazer on September 14, 2017, 12:01:13 PM
The occult communities need to die. There is no truth in the subject. Its a clever lie that people desperate for meaning in their lives attach themselves to. Its a waste of time, such a terrible waste of time and life. Regrettable really.

It depends on what you do. If you pursue the "fairy stuff of legends", sure you will be dissatisfied in the end.

With that said, there is a certain merit in occult practices and in the history of mankind. Grimoires are a perfect representation of the mind of our ancestors as these books promise what they wanted to achieve in life, how to better understand the mind of the man than through his desires?

Unfortunately occultism is a little bit too broad discipline and yes, a lot of BS is contained within and despite that Psionics wanted to begin with a clean shield, they are guilty of the same problem.
The only true way I know to create a change in accordance to my will is to set a goal, create a plan, and act. You strip the religious aspects from magick, you're left with a collection of self help techniques. Too many idiots waste their time chasing "super powers", psionics is the worst and the law of attraction crowd is just lazy.
Title: Re: My oh my we are a sad little place
Post by: Akenu on September 14, 2017, 12:32:47 PM
The occult communities need to die. There is no truth in the subject. Its a clever lie that people desperate for meaning in their lives attach themselves to. Its a waste of time, such a terrible waste of time and life. Regrettable really.

It depends on what you do. If you pursue the "fairy stuff of legends", sure you will be dissatisfied in the end.

With that said, there is a certain merit in occult practices and in the history of mankind. Grimoires are a perfect representation of the mind of our ancestors as these books promise what they wanted to achieve in life, how to better understand the mind of the man than through his desires?

Unfortunately occultism is a little bit too broad discipline and yes, a lot of BS is contained within and despite that Psionics wanted to begin with a clean shield, they are guilty of the same problem.
The only true way I know to create a change in accordance to my will is to set a goal, create a plan, and act. You strip the religious aspects from magick, you're left with a collection of self help techniques. Too many idiots waste their time chasing "super powers", psionics is the worst and the law of attraction crowd is just lazy.

I wouldn't say it is necessarily true with the self-help stuff, I did experience a lot of weird stuff along the years and an actual face to face communication with spirits was one of them. The thing is that it is usually hard to say what is an actual objective experience and what is just a coincidence or induced hallucination.

On the other side, being able to induce life-like hallucinations is cool, too.
Title: Re: My oh my we are a sad little place
Post by: Hellblazer on September 14, 2017, 12:59:17 PM
The self-induced stuff sure. But everything else "mystical" is bullshit. Too many people drunk off the dopamine ghost.
Title: Re: My oh my we are a sad little place
Post by: Akenu on September 14, 2017, 01:24:30 PM
The self-induced stuff sure. But everything else "mystical" is bullshit. Too many people drunk off the dopamine ghost.

Think of it that way, most people live boring mundane life. A little bit of wonder here and there can really bring the happiness meter up a lot.
Title: Re: My oh my we are a sad little place
Post by: Hellblazer on September 14, 2017, 02:35:04 PM
In the long run what's the point. You get a shot of those feel good chemicals and then you to chase that ghost again and again.

If you want me to tell you the truth. I regret becoming an occultist. I got nothing out of it. Not really. It was a waste of my life. But who gives a flying fuck. People waste their lives on a lot of things. Everything is meaningless anyway and when we die game over. So no matter how much you aspire to be a grand sorcerer it's ultimately futile.
Title: Re: My oh my we are a sad little place
Post by: Akenu on September 14, 2017, 02:39:03 PM
In the long run what's the point. You get a shot of those feel good chemicals and then you to chase that ghost again and again.

If you want me to tell you the truth. I regret becoming an occultist. I got nothing out of it. Not really. It was a waste of my life. But who gives a flying fuck. People waste their lives on a lot of things. Everything is meaningless anyway and when we die game over. So no matter how much you aspire to be a grand sorcerer it's ultimately futile.

So, what's the point of sewing, crocheting, drawing, playing on a guitar, learning to swim, learning to play baseball, football... There will be no one remembering you doing that in a 1000 years...

To be frank, it's pretty damn fun, way more fun than nihilism ;-).
Title: Re: My oh my we are a sad little place
Post by: Hellblazer on September 14, 2017, 02:42:43 PM
Fun is overrated.
Title: Re: My oh my we are a sad little place
Post by: Akenu on September 14, 2017, 02:57:09 PM
Fun is overrated.

So is nihilism :D.
Title: Re: My oh my we are a sad little place
Post by: Hellblazer on September 15, 2017, 10:35:39 AM
You know. There are more important things to do in life that masturbating to your magical thinking.
Title: Re: My oh my we are a sad little place
Post by: Akenu on September 16, 2017, 03:16:12 AM
You know. There are more important things to do in life that masturbating to your magical thinking.


Oh, definitely, there are also more important things than brushing your teeth, yet you do it each day and more than once.
Title: Re: My oh my we are a sad little place
Post by: MikeWho on September 16, 2017, 11:10:17 PM
There used to be a lot of leadership here. I had given up the arts when I finally and successfully summoned a spirit. I was so terrified that in the evening I burnt every book pertaining to the occult to a crisp, smashed my black obsidian mirror, etc etc, and decided to stick with music.


In all honesty, you can't ever forget a thing such as summoning a spirit, because at that point, you've proven to yourself that without a doubt this thing is very real and very terrifying. I've never felt so vulnerable.

However, it dawns on me that in these days and ages, maybe there is a little bit of purpose for it having happened, and maybe we'll see more old members start flushing again, such as my self.
Title: Re: My oh my we are a sad little place
Post by: Hellblazer on September 17, 2017, 08:01:26 AM
You know. There are more important things to do in life that masturbating to your magical thinking.


Oh, definitely, there are also more important things than brushing your teeth, yet you do it each day and more than once.
You know why that is? Because you can see results from brushing your teeth or any personal hygiene routine. That's where real change occurs. Just using magical affirmations vs. intentional actions or in a more colorful term True Direct Magick. Affirmations have their place. They can be used to get your mind into a single direction but nothing changes unless you (meaning anyone) changes it.

A fat ass can cast all the spells they want, but without action they'll still be a fat ass. Nothing is free in life, it takes time, effort, and dedication to achieve anything. I've lost all tolerance for anything spiritual. Gods, demons, angels. They only exist within your imagination. They can be used as a metaphysical placebo and that all well and good, but to take any of this shit seriously. That's just stupid. It's like those fools who get suicidal depressed because they "sinned".

There used to be a lot of leadership here. I had given up the arts when I finally and successfully summoned a spirit. I was so terrified that in the evening I burnt every book pertaining to the occult to a crisp, smashed my black obsidian mirror, etc etc, and decided to stick with music.


In all honesty, you can't ever forget a thing such as summoning a spirit, because at that point, you've proven to yourself that without a doubt this thing is very real and very terrifying. I've never felt so vulnerable.


However, it dawns on me that in these days and ages, maybe there is a little bit of purpose for it having happened, and maybe we'll see more old members start flushing again, such as my self.
To the bold. If all it take is summoning a spirit to convince you. Then you're already primed for magical thinking. What the hell happened to actually testing things? Did everyone forget the magicians journal? Testing, research, etc. We are supposed to be in a way scientist of the psyche. What happened to that? Did it all become new age bullshit. Wish really hard and let the "cosmos" crap out the golden egg?

My frustration with the occult community is the same with the L.O.A. crowd. Magical thinking and wishful thinking. It seems so few dig deeper into things anymore. They want a quick fix for shit that would take a little planning and effort. Magick is NOT a give it to me without effort thing. It's a part. Intention and Action. Getting your conscious and subconscious onto the same page. Ending that inner struggle and achieving things.

The formula is simple. Cast your will however you desire (I don't care) and act. That's it. Without effort you'll only end up with confirmation and cognitive bias. A bunch of false positives. Yet we do not discuss this in occult communities. No one wants to hear it or even acknowledge it. No wonder things get stagnant.
Title: Re: My oh my we are a sad little place
Post by: Iatros on September 17, 2017, 04:40:31 PM
Magical and spiritual practices DO bring benefits, just look at the research on meditation: increased attention and empathy, decreased anxiety and less reactivity to stressors including pain,  an altered EEG phenotype suggesting the above,  as well as a smaller amygdala with greater connectivity to the frontal lobe,  suggesting greater control over the
more "negative" emotions... Positive changes in gene expression,  longer telomeres suggesting less cellular aging... The list goes on and on. The mind affects the body.

While you seem to be comfortable throwing around the term "placebo," you seem to miss its implications. Placebos work. They work better than if nothing had been done to treat an illness, for example. How do you think placebos work? A mental state of expectation influences the brain,  somehow. Of course,  according to hardline materialism like you seem to believe in,  a mental state is either not a real thing and therefore can't affect matter, or is a state of the brain, in which case the brain effectively decides to hurt or heal itself or the body. The placebo effect even persists when the subject knows that they are receiving a placebo. Hypnosis may suggest an entire field of manipulating the placebo effect in the self and others.

If the placebo effect can, in this way, be used arbitrarily to create physiological and psychological changes in people, merely by creating a mental / brain state of expectation of that effect, then right there you have validation for a whole host of the mystical magical practices that you have had such a falling out with.

The value in the mysticism and magic, from that perspective,  is that they are frameworks in which people can believe, in order to elicit useful placebo effects systematically and at will.

What exactly is your issue,  then,  with someone practicing magic because it is psychologically compelling, when it elicits real placebo effects?

As for "spooky action at a distance," Google Scholar > Anomalous Cognition / Perturbation or even one of the older terms for psi like ESP or PK like I did for you in the other thread. There is plenty of evidence in favor, and if anything the field of parapsychology is gaining in acceptance.
Title: Re: My oh my we are a sad little place
Post by: Intrepid on September 17, 2017, 06:51:59 PM
Hellblazer:  so why are you here?
Title: Re: My oh my we are a sad little place
Post by: Akenu on September 18, 2017, 02:28:41 PM
Wait, did Rayn just post a readable comment? How long have I been gone?  ???


Anyway, yes, scientific evidence so far is not exactly breath-taking and if you remember, in the past I have mentioned also some miscalculations in the statistics, namely wrongly calculated z-score. But also keep in mind, the research is still going and is underfunded so it takes time (and yes, there are more critical topics like medicine and renewable energy sources).
Title: Re: My oh my we are a sad little place
Post by: Hellblazer on September 18, 2017, 03:19:32 PM
Look I get the whole social and personal benefits of metaphysical practices. And I damn well understand the mind-body effects due to the placebo effect. What I'm getting at is that magick is not a cure all. It gets really old seeing request for love and/or money spell from lazy bastards who want something for free. Using a spell or sigil to change your subconscious beliefs which "bleed over" into your thoughts, feels, and actions. Sure no problem. Someone levitation, I'm highly skeptical of the "super power" aspect. Too many years and too many hits and misses. You have people joining the occult community with the idea that they will become a living god. :rolleyes:

Sorry no dice. And yes this is a lot of personal anger coming out. Perhaps I just need to vent my feelings towards to occult. Do I hate it? No. I hate what it is though. Not so much as someone praying to wtf-ever god/s/ess's they choose. I don't care. I'm pretty much an indifferent agnostic towards the spiritual, which I see as being more like Emotion. The psychological and emotional aspect of feeling like you've got some control in your life can be comforting, used to be to me as well. Then I realized quite harshly that magick, does not fix problems. It can change how you see things. Those subconscious programs. But nothing will just be instantly solved through it. Plus flinging curses at people doesn't do anything. There are so many explanations for what happens that magick just doesn't look like magick. It looks like self-help with more theatrics.

Yes I'm bitching. I've got this duel struggle of forgetting my past which was years of my life and moving on. Or I go back to it. I'm angry because I feel that I've wasted a shit ton of years on something that was in a way a dead end. I'm sure none of you level 99 mages have ever felt that way. So fuck me for feeling like I have no reason to exist anymore.
Title: Re: My oh my we are a sad little place
Post by: delusionsofgranduer on September 18, 2017, 03:50:36 PM
The initial reason I joined this website two years ago was to become a psion (someone should invent a less cringy term tbh).  My main motivation regarding learning psi was to prove to myself that there is some kind of objective spiritual/metaphysical feature to reality.  I wanted to basically prove the mainstream materialist reductionist worldview was wrong.  That we were more then just electrochemical reactions taking place in some blob of fat and meat.

After I was able to make the candle flame move according to my intentions consistently for the first time I was expecting a profound life changing experience.  I didn't really get that.  Sure I was able to move around a candle flame and sometimes affect a random number generator but all in all it was very underwhelming and useless.  I was expecting to be able to experience some profound spiritual awareness; everything would finally be crystal clear to me.  I think the moment I really stopped considering using psi for practical purposes was when I realized that my time and energy was probably better spent pursuing a practical path to my goals instead of something more esoteric. 

Honestly I don't really know you at all Hellblazer (by the way I love that comic series!), but maybe it would be beneficial to just put all this occult stuff behind you.  If according to you its just useless mystical masturbation; its probably better for you to just leave the occult scene entirely.  If you're angry for wasting all your time and effort on trying to make this stuff work, just focus on something more tangible.  And even if this stuff is just a pathetic form of role playing; that doesn't mean it's useless.  I'm sure there are some skills you've learned over the course of your time practicing magic which can be translated into more practical matters.  If nothing else, now it's easier for you to spot bullshit. :wink:

I understand your frustration and bitterness though.  When you work so hard trying to accomplish something and realize that you still fail, time and time again.  I don't think I'm very good at all that psi stuff to be honest.  It requires a sort of self confidence and mental focus which I don't really possess, especially considering how much more scatterbrained and doubtful I am then the average person.  For me, psi practice and focal meditation made me realize how flawed and lazy I really am. 

I'm trying to pick up psi again after all the chaos in my life settles down.  I want to help myself psychologically as well as practically  That's why I hope we can inject some more life into this site!  It's good motivation to help my lazy ass persevere through this practice.  :)
Title: Re: My oh my we are a sad little place
Post by: Hellblazer on September 18, 2017, 04:14:41 PM
I have been at this stuff since roughly 1994 and I never got that "Holy Shit this is real" moment. I don't know how some people do it. You'd figure that with all the time, effort, and energy that I've spent towards this. I would have something that would anchor the validity of it. Sure I could look back and what I went through a few years ago. Needing money for something unfortunate. Getting it and the results being a minimum of what I had expect. Sure I could say that it was magick that made it happen. But that just the results mundane stuff. You've got people claiming to have been visited by gods and demons, rampant psychokinesis. That shit just never happened to me. Sure I've got a history of weirdness, but that proof positive moment, never came. Unfortunately or fortunately I can reduce all my experiences to common psychological explanations. So it feels like a massive waste of time.
Title: Re: My oh my we are a sad little place
Post by: Hellblazer on September 19, 2017, 03:17:19 AM
And the only thing my interest in the occult lead me to was psychology. How the mind works, how beliefs affect us. That's why I call magick a collection of self-help techniques. Because that's what it really looks like. A series of magical affirmations performed through self-hypnosis. There are no instant results. There are progressive results. And inner working are always the best. So no I do not have problem with what people do. I think it's the exaggerated claims that urk me so much. Casting a spell to find love will change you first, and in turn you will change the things around you.  That is how I see it. It all starts from within. That I get. In a way I get the bad ass appeal of "summoning a demon". It's an ego trip. Makes you feels strong or powerful. But unless you act nothing changes. A young witch cursing her ex-boyfriend through some simple spell might just me a mental release of all her emotional pain, which can be therapeutic. This is the aspect I get. It's always why I can see personal rituals being way more "powerful" than by the book ones. It's a lot like using an affirmation you constructed every morning to get your head in the right place. You do this "ritual" each day and your day goes according or close to the mindset you tired to develop. All this to me is real and practical magick. Not the hocus pocus stuff.
Title: Re: My oh my we are a sad little place
Post by: Kemetin on September 22, 2017, 06:35:52 PM
I have been at this stuff since roughly 1994 and I never got that "Holy Shit this is real" moment. I don't know how some people do it. You'd figure that with all the time, effort, and energy that I've spent towards this. I would have something that would anchor the validity of it. Sure I could look back and what I went through a few years ago. Needing money for something unfortunate. Getting it and the results being a minimum of what I had expect. Sure I could say that it was magick that made it happen. But that just the results mundane stuff. You've got people claiming to have been visited by gods and demons, rampant psychokinesis. That shit just never happened to me. Sure I've got a history of weirdness, but that proof positive moment, never came. Unfortunately or fortunately I can reduce all my experiences to common psychological explanations. So it feels like a massive waste of time.

What were you practising for all those years?

Either way, your situation is a common one. I personally think a huge part of the problem is the state of Western esoteric tradition - for historical reasons, it's just too watered down, too much has been lost or distorted or corrupted or mashed together with other things that just aren't compatible. There's just not enough left to serve as a viable system of development, which is why even the allegedly "successful" Western magicians almost universally supplement their training heavily with Eastern practices.

I had similar frustration when I first started studying this stuff, but eventually  I decided to cut the bullshit and go to the source, and I only wish I'd done so sooner. I found teachers who had achieved the things I want to achieve, and now I study under them, just as you would with any other human endeavour. It requires a lot more initial investment than downloading a few dozen PDF's and trying to wing it by yourself, but there's a reason these systems of training have always thrived in situations where they are passed down through a direct lineage of teacher > student. Nobody would try to learn surgery or chemistry or any other serious pursuit using books downloaded off the internet (and nobody would trust them to practice it if they did), it's insane to think that magic or spiritual development are somehow the exception.

 And it bypasses the whole question of faith or belief and the whole stupid mess of trying to "prove that it's real" out of old grimoires or shitty newage books (or god forbid, websites like psipog), because any teacher worth studying under can demonstrate their attainment firsthand.

I've learned and progressed more in a year of direct training under competent teachers than I did in all of the time I wasted floundering around under the hacks who cling to the Western tradition so they can take advantage of desperate seekers who have a preconceived notion of what their path should look like, or the time I wasted messing around with books before that.

These days I personally lean towards thinking that we need to recognise a lost cause for what it is, and cut off the rotting branch so something new can grow, but that's just me.
Title: Re: My oh my we are a sad little place
Post by: Kemetin on September 23, 2017, 12:47:52 PM


There are multiple flaws in the reasoning of your thinking. First off, Eastern practices do not exists in some void. Taoist, Buddhists, Vedic, Hindu, so on and so forth ideologies are culturally dominant in Eastern countries, right? Well, what is the frequency of people in those countries who historically and currently have any a large amount of say psychic ability? Not many. The reason why observable instances of psychic abilities large enough to be seen without analysis  is so hard to believe is because it is so rare. If it were not, then it would be a common and familiar experience endemic to human society. But it is not! The same could be said for Western religion and spirituality. Inductively, this means there is no reason to think that supplementing your practices with Eastern ones will have any effect, because the frequency of people who actually have experiences that are large enough to observe without analysis is just about the same for either or. The majority of people on this planet are religious or spiritual in some shape or form; however, most people aren't moving objects around that can be seen without analysis, which is why people have a hard time believing that someone can make an object levitate.

Secondly, when you speak of a "lineage", you are speaking of how things are taught to people and how those things are further taught. You are speaking of a culture, essentially. Something is not true by virtue of having a particular culture. Abstractly, you can say how people learn things on line is indicative of a culture the same way you are learning where there is a difference in pedagogy and whether or not something is vetted. Besides cultural differences, though, it seems as if you are making an assumption that one culture is more likely to give results than another based on what appears to be age and how closely it matches up to some arbitrarily proposed cannon of beliefs. Think of technology. Technology is not just the end result, but it is also the ideas, concepts, and techniques taught to people to come up with that technology. This means there is a cultural component to it where current technology is very effective where those disciplines are relatively new.

This boils down to pretty much there being no logical reason, based on evidence, to think you will get better results if you supplemented or switched to Eastern practices and there is no logical reason to think one culture is more effective than another based on its age. Since culture is something that is taught and learned, all cultures technically have a lineage.

We have some pretty fundamental gulfs between our perspectives, so I doubt anything will come of a protracted discussion, but I'll try to address a few of your comments anyway.

- "Well, what is the frequency of people in those countries who historically and currently have any a large amount of say psychic ability? Not many."

Firstly, thanks to a century of immigration and globalisation (not to mention, in the case of Daoism and Chan & Tibetan Buddhism, violent persecution), we're talking less about a geographical "East" than the we are about the training methodologies which historically descend from that location, especially when discussing beginning and intermediate training. Of course it's an incredibly vague description no matter how we define it, but without going far more in depth, it'll have to do.

Secondly, we're not talking about the population at large, we're talking specifically about dedicated practitioners of what I'll group under the label of systems of metaphysical development (Yoga and Tantra, Qigong and Neigong, Internal Alchemy, assorted other systems of meditation, various systems of magic, etc etc), since I'm not a fan of the "psychic" label for a huge number of reasons.

Third, what matters in the context of the point I was making isn't the absolute number of people who have achieved success in these practices, but the relative number of people who have achieved that success using traditional Eastern training as opposed to training in the traditional Western esoteric current, attempted self training or bastardised syncretic methodologies. Of course, in absolute terms, such success is rare within any given general population group - just as successful authors, athletes, scientists or what have you are also rare in any given general population.

Fourth, as there has been very little in-depth scientific examination of these systems, East or West, let alone detailed polling of how many people have achieved what level of success with which systems, you're basically saying "well, in absolute terms success is rare everywhere, so it doesn't matter if it's more common, even by a large degree, in certain traditions/lineages." I'm sure I don't have to point out how flawed that line of reason is. There's also the issue of the definition of "success" varying from system to system - another of the issues I take with the Western traditions is that in the modern era, they hold the bar for success extremely low, and don't even have the  conceptual framework, let alone practical methodology, for the higher levels of practice and attainment found in Eastern traditions. Even at the beginners level, there are huge holes, such as the complete lack of physical training in the Hermetic system prior to the adoption of Vedic Yoga by the Occult Revival era practitioners.

- "If it were not, then it would be a common and familiar experience endemic to human society."

Not necessarily. Nobody doubts that world class athletes can perform extraordinary physical feats, but if I walked into a random party and claimed to be an Olympic gold medallist, then people are likely to be sceptical unless I can back up my claims. They might be less sceptical if we instead met at a gym run by world class athletic coaches, but they would probably still maintain reserve until proof was provided either way. Metaphysical achievement is much the same - a surprising number of people believe it's possible, especially once you get outside the bubble of Western middle class reductionist materialism, but that doesn't mean they'll believe every asshole running around claiming to be a grand master (rightfully so).

In short, what you're ignoring is that the vast majority of Eastern traditional lineages maintain that to progress in these fields, extraordinary dedication and hard work is required, just like any other human endeavour.

 This is another one of the flaws within Western esoteric teachings - due to misinformation caused by the problems I mentioned in my last post, and perpetuated by popular culture, many people are lead to believe that attainment is either purely a matter of luck (ie. that "powers" are something you're born or gifted with - one reason I avoid the word "psychic," since it has come to heavily imply this), or that it can simply be obtained by following spells and rituals the same way you would follow the recipe out of a cook book. This is less the case than it used to be, but it's an attitude which seems to still seep in at a subconscious level, as opposed to the emphasis on hard work and dedication generally found in Eastern lineages. Putting aside methodologies, this gap in approach alone is, imo, quite likely to account for a solid chunk of the difference in the levels of success found in Eastern schools v. Western schools.

- "The majority of people on this planet are religious or spiritual in some shape or form; however, most people aren't moving objects around that can be seen without analysis"

You can't equate "being religious/spiritual" with having success in metaphysical development. The former is simply a worldview, the latter is a result of hard work within the context of correct training.

- "Secondly, when you speak of a "lineage", you are speaking of how things are taught to people and how those things are further taught. You are speaking of a culture, essentially."

Not quite. I'm speaking of a specific practical methodology for training to attain certain results, being passed down correctly from one individual to the next across generations. These systems are obviously coloured by culture, and colour the culture they exist within, as with any field of human endeavour, but they're based on the demonstrated success of certain schools of training techniques. Roughly speaking, a pedagogy, as you more accurately termed it later.

 - "Something is not true by virtue of having a particular culture."

Of course not - but something either achieves the desired results or does not based, at least to a large degree, on whether it consists of the proper methodology.

"it seems as if you are making an assumption that one culture is more likely to give results than another based on what appears to be age and how closely it matches up to some arbitrarily proposed cannon of beliefs."

No, I'm making the evaluation that one system of learning (or group of systems of learning) is more likely to provide results than another system (or group of systems) of learning based on the ability of the students of that system to demonstrate the relevant results.

To go back to analogies - If I wanted to be an Olympic athlete, I'd do it by looking to see which coach was having the best success at producing students capable of competing in, and winning, Olympic medals. If I wanted to be a silicon valley programmer, I'd do it by looking to see which University's tech department was producing students with the greatest hiring rate and career trajectory in silicon valley (and, obviously, move to America). If I wanted to be a world class surgeon, I'd look at world class surgeons and find out which medical schools they graduated from. All I'm doing is taking that same train of logic and applying it to metaphysical matters. I decided on what I wanted to achieve, I looked at who had achieved it, and then I went to them with the hope that they would guide me through the process of achieving it that they themselves had undertaken.

Title: Re: My oh my we are a sad little place
Post by: Hellblazer on September 23, 2017, 05:21:30 PM
So basically every system is bullshit. Right? Because that's what I'm seeing so far.
Title: Re: My oh my we are a sad little place
Post by: Hellblazer on September 24, 2017, 05:56:14 PM
The only thing that I know is legit, is that if your change your subconscious beliefs you change. That mindset is everything and stuff "magically" popping out of nowhere does not exist. That all spirits and entities are just psychology props. The practice of magick being nothing more than psychological theatrics.
Title: Re: My oh my we are a sad little place
Post by: Kemetin on September 25, 2017, 01:57:42 AM
Quote
Hence why I did not respond to Kemetin's post.

Except you did... twice now...  :)

Quote
I don't believe in Qigong, Hermetics, Vedic whatever, or anything like that, and your argument has no numbers attached to it, so there is no reason for me to think it even pragmatically valid.

Believe or disbelieve whatever you want, it's your life, but I feel obliged to point out that nothing you've said so far has had numbers attached to it either. Personally, belief isn't a huge factor for me - I care first and foremost about personal experience of practical results.

Quote
So basically every system is bullshit. Right? Because that's what I'm seeing so far.

I'm still curious - exactly what you were practising for all those years, and why on earth did you keep practising it for so long if you weren't getting notable results?

Title: Re: My oh my we are a sad little place
Post by: Oxide on September 25, 2017, 03:32:08 AM
I had similar frustration when I first started studying this stuff, but eventually  I decided to cut the bullshit and go to the source, and I only wish I'd done so sooner. I found teachers who had achieved the things I want to achieve, and now I study under them, just as you would with any other human endeavour. It requires a lot more initial investment than downloading a few dozen PDF's and trying to wing it by yourself, but there's a reason these systems of training have always thrived in situations where they are passed down through a direct lineage of teacher > student...........

May I ask what system(s) you are following or practising, please?
Title: Re: My oh my we are a sad little place
Post by: Oxide on September 25, 2017, 03:47:25 AM
This is what I am speaking of Akenu. You people are crazy, and I feel like I can say that seeing as you just tried to stalk me and dropped an alias I use online on my social media pages in the forum that you thought was personal information.....

...... What you did is called surveillance; it is part of stalking. The purpose behind stalking is essentially to exert an influence on people where you dropped what you thought was personal information as a means to intimidate me, which is not going to work.........

This is worrying, Ryan. I am concerned. How is it possible that someone can stalk you on this forum? Could someone stalk me, by me being on this forum, or any forum for that matter? How can I protect myself from this?
Title: Re: My oh my we are a sad little place
Post by: Hellblazer on September 25, 2017, 06:43:56 AM
I think the one thing that magick and religion have is common is, don't question. Once you start you won't like the answers you find. If you really want to create a change in your life, do something that changes it. You can wish in one hand and crap in the other, which'll fill up first?
Title: Re: My oh my we are a sad little place
Post by: Hellblazer on September 25, 2017, 08:55:09 AM
Rayn I didn't get along with you in the past, but I find myself agreeing with you more and more.
Title: Re: My oh my we are a sad little place
Post by: delusionsofgranduer on September 25, 2017, 02:34:33 PM
I like to lurk on occult/magic forums sometimes to see how other people's opinion on the metaphysical.  I've found these communities to be a mixed bag for the most part.  I've met lots of wise and thoughtful people on there who I've learned a lot from.  On the other hand I've also met a lot of obnoxious arrogant people as well.  A lot of long time occultists on these forums  believe that just because their belief systems are really old that it somehow makes them superior.

For example, I've met many so called amazing hermetic magicians and chaos magick adepts who are dismissive of anything that doesn't conform to their worldview.  When you try bringing up psionics or anomalous cognition to them most of them will role their eyes and dismiss it out of hand.  I'm sorry, you believe that masturbating on a some squiggles on a piece of paper is going to change the universe but can't suspend belief to consider psychic abilities? 

What's so bothersome though is that there is such an utter contempt for trying to investigate these things scientifically.  Apparently all magic is just ineffable subjective experience that cannot be analyzed using logic or reasoning.  I think transcendental subjective experiences are wonderful and they have their place in creating a logical framework for this phenomena, but that doesn't mean we have to rule out scientific analysis.  Using science doesn't mean accepting materialist reductionism or giving up on your spirituality; its just a tool for us to discover how metaphysical stuff works.

Sometimes I think it sucks knowing that we will probably never have a comprehensive understanding in our lifetimes.  Who knows what scientists in a 1000 years will find out about how souls, metaphysical abilities, and psi really work. 
Title: Re: My oh my we are a sad little place
Post by: Hellblazer on September 25, 2017, 06:32:28 PM
I think the biggest issue is that people want that "happy thought" kind of magick. The typical law of attraction b.s. which amounts to nothing more than cognitive and/or confirmation bias. They want to wish really hard and have everything handed to them with no effort. That doesn't work. I feel down that rabbit hole, its not a place anyone need be.

The most effective system is optimism and goal setting. That work if you have the will to achieve, but if you spend your life looking for super powers then you are wasting your time.
Title: Re: My oh my we are a sad little place
Post by: Kemetin on September 25, 2017, 07:32:10 PM
Rayn - I'm gonna keep this short and sweet, because it's a nice spring afternoon and there are better ways to spend it than dredging through your pseudoscientific diatribe.

1) I never said anything about  "super duper duper special teachers" or "ancient secrets," you're projecting your own preconceived notions onto what I said.  All I'm saying is that if you want to train in a system which will help you develop "metaphysically," then you're by far most likely to do so successfully if you find a system with practitioners who can demonstrate success (whatever that happens to be to you - not everyone has the obsession with flashy-but-useless psychokinetics that you seem to possess), and then follow the same method under their guidance. Exactly as you would in any other field of endeavour.

2) A lot of the rest of what you're rambling on about we've already discussed to what I feel is more or less the point of conclusion in a thread from last year: http://forums.vsociety.net/index.php/topic,22957.0.html If there's anyone here reading this who cares (which I doubt) they can find my objections to your "inductive reasoning" and etc. in my posts in that thread.

As I'm fairly sure I said there, but I'm going to reiterate nobody would be happier than me to see science finally make a genuine and wholehearted effort at studying these phenomena, but until that happens (and I'm fairly convinced it will within our lifetime - although people were saying the same thing over a century ago), my attitude is that the most practical approach is to make do with using pre-existing cosmologies as working models.

3) You seem incredibly invested in a lot of things you claim to not believe in, given the amount of time, effort and emotion you're going out of your way to repeatedly pour into arguing about it on an empty website. I'd suggest you try some introspection, chill out and look for something better to do with your time. Maybe some meditation would help you relax :)

I'm bowing out. If you wanna keep jumping all over this dead horse, have fun.




Title: Re: My oh my we are a sad little place
Post by: Akenu on November 06, 2017, 03:21:48 PM
I think the biggest issue is that people want that "happy thought" kind of magick. The typical law of attraction b.s. which amounts to nothing more than cognitive and/or confirmation bias. They want to wish really hard and have everything handed to them with no effort. That doesn't work. I feel down that rabbit hole, its not a place anyone need be.

The most effective system is optimism and goal setting. That work if you have the will to achieve, but if you spend your life looking for super powers then you are wasting your time.


Hellblazer, I would swear that LOA was something you did practice some time ago and you did actually consider it very effective, that at least came up from our personal communication.
Title: Re: My oh my we are a sad little place
Post by: Hellblazer on November 10, 2017, 04:24:00 PM
I think the biggest issue is that people want that "happy thought" kind of magick. The typical law of attraction b.s. which amounts to nothing more than cognitive and/or confirmation bias. They want to wish really hard and have everything handed to them with no effort. That doesn't work. I feel down that rabbit hole, its not a place anyone need be.

The most effective system is optimism and goal setting. That work if you have the will to achieve, but if you spend your life looking for super powers then you are wasting your time.


Hellblazer, I would swear that LOA was something you did practice some time ago and you did actually consider it very effective, that at least came up from our personal communication.
That was before I knew what confirmation bias was.
Title: Re: My oh my we are a sad little place
Post by: Akenu on November 13, 2017, 01:09:28 AM
I think the biggest issue is that people want that "happy thought" kind of magick. The typical law of attraction b.s. which amounts to nothing more than cognitive and/or confirmation bias. They want to wish really hard and have everything handed to them with no effort. That doesn't work. I feel down that rabbit hole, its not a place anyone need be.

The most effective system is optimism and goal setting. That work if you have the will to achieve, but if you spend your life looking for super powers then you are wasting your time.


Hellblazer, I would swear that LOA was something you did practice some time ago and you did actually consider it very effective, that at least came up from our personal communication.
That was before I knew what confirmation bias was.




So, if you go through your records backwards, which of your results do you perceive as confirmation bias?
Title: Re: My oh my we are a sad little place
Post by: Hellblazer on November 14, 2017, 08:58:49 AM
I think the biggest issue is that people want that "happy thought" kind of magick. The typical law of attraction b.s. which amounts to nothing more than cognitive and/or confirmation bias. They want to wish really hard and have everything handed to them with no effort. That doesn't work. I feel down that rabbit hole, its not a place anyone need be.

The most effective system is optimism and goal setting. That work if you have the will to achieve, but if you spend your life looking for super powers then you are wasting your time.


Hellblazer, I would swear that LOA was something you did practice some time ago and you did actually consider it very effective, that at least came up from our personal communication.
That was before I knew what confirmation bias was.




So, if you go through your records backwards, which of your results do you perceive as confirmation bias?
All of it.
Title: Re: My oh my we are a sad little place
Post by: Akenu on November 15, 2017, 08:25:46 AM
All of it.


I remember you have messed with a PSI wheel before, so was that a confirmation bias, as well?
Title: Re: My oh my we are a sad little place
Post by: Hellblazer on November 16, 2017, 09:30:07 AM

[/quote]


I remember you have messed with a PSI wheel before, so was that a confirmation bias, as well?
[/quote]
Micro changes in the environment from body heat, static electricity, and micro movements of the hands can set a psi wheel moving, breathing does the same thing. So yes it is another case of confirmation bias.

Psychic abilities, ghost, etc do not exist. No one has any supernormal abilities. That's why we invent things to give us the illusion of power and control. Magick isn't real.
Title: Re: My oh my we are a sad little place
Post by: Akenu on November 16, 2017, 09:46:02 AM
Micro changes in the environment from body heat, static electricity, and micro movements of the hands can set a psi wheel moving, breathing does the same thing. So yes it is another case of confirmation bias.

Psychic abilities, ghost, etc do not exist. No one has any supernormal abilities. That's why we invent things to give us the illusion of power and control. Magick isn't real.


I remember there is an article regarding working with PSI wheel here on Veritas. The article mentions a couple of measure to get rid of external influences like


There are more measure, but have you tried any of those?
Title: Re: My oh my we are a sad little place
Post by: Hellblazer on November 16, 2017, 11:18:58 AM
It doesn't matter. Its all bullshit anyway.
Title: Re: My oh my we are a sad little place
Post by: Hellblazer on November 16, 2017, 11:23:02 AM
Why are you even bothering to try and sell this crap to me anyway?
Title: Re: My oh my we are a sad little place
Post by: Akenu on November 16, 2017, 01:12:52 PM

It doesn't matter. Its all bullshit anyway.

Why are you even bothering to try and sell this crap to me anyway?


I am not trying to sell you anything, I am just wondering. All your previous posts regarding the "meat grinder", "finding what works" and things like that and now you say it's all bullshit. It makes me wonder, can you say it's all bullshit with a full certainty, considering you have actually never tried an authentic system and sticked with it?
Title: Re: My oh my we are a sad little place
Post by: Hellblazer on November 16, 2017, 05:30:04 PM
Yes. Because all of them are basically the same. It all depends on what decorations you want to put on it. That's it. Every system, every method, equally crap. All of them. Magic is the art and science of self-deception. Plain and simple. Eventually kids grow out of magical thinking, some adults can't. Just because you said some words and did some ritual does do shit in the real work, you just think it does. All those ghost and spirits are just a product of your imagination. Not a single occultist has any actual power. None. There is no God, no salvation, no hope, no reincarnation. No matter what the occultist aspires to it's bullshit. I have become very anti-theist, anti-paranormal, and anti-supernatural.
Title: Re: My oh my we are a sad little place
Post by: Akenu on November 17, 2017, 05:36:56 AM
Yes. Because all of them are basically the same. It all depends on what decorations you want to put on it. That's it. Every system, every method, equally crap. All of them. Magic is the art and science of self-deception. Plain and simple. Eventually kids grow out of magical thinking, some adults can't. Just because you said some words and did some ritual does do shit in the real work, you just think it does. All those ghost and spirits are just a product of your imagination. Not a single occultist has any actual power. None. There is no God, no salvation, no hope, no reincarnation. No matter what the occultist aspires to it's bullshit. I have become very anti-theist, anti-paranormal, and anti-supernatural.


You don't know that ;-). That's the thing, Chris, you never tried that, you always said "that doesn't work, what I do works", and now you say that nothing works including what you did....


If what you do, didn't work, you would know if you have used proper methods, same as with the PSI wheel, you claim that nothing works, yet I see no actual work on your part. What you say is basically this:


Before
You don't need medicine to cure anything, all you need is green tea
Now
Medicine doesn't work, I tried and the green tea never cured anything for me.
Title: Re: My oh my we are a sad little place
Post by: Hellblazer on November 17, 2017, 06:25:24 AM
You want to pass the blame on me? Really. It's nothing more than magical thinking. The only model of magick that's correct is the psychological one, because all you're doing is fucking with your head. There is no causal power in using dressed up affirmations and stupid rituals. Saying fancy words and using the imagination doesn't fix any of life problems. All systems of magick are nothing more than mental masturbation.
Title: Re: My oh my we are a sad little place
Post by: Akenu on November 17, 2017, 12:43:52 PM
You want to pass the blame on me? Really. It's nothing more than magical thinking. The only model of magick that's correct is the psychological one, because all you're doing is fucking with your head. There is no causal power in using dressed up affirmations and stupid rituals. Saying fancy words and using the imagination doesn't fix any of life problems. All systems of magick are nothing more than mental masturbation.


And you want to blame everyone else for your own failure? If you didn't succeed at something, it doesn't mean it is impossible, it just means you didn't succeed at it.
Title: Re: My oh my we are a sad little place
Post by: Hellblazer on November 17, 2017, 02:13:49 PM
I'm quite glad I failed at lying to myself. Wish a bunch of other morons would do the same. Maybe we'd move past superstitious wishful thinking. This shit doesn't exist at all. No amount of pseudo science will validate occult stupidity. It's about the most pathetic thing in to world to actually take this crap serious. It really is a shame I wasted so much of my life being apart of it. Bunch of fucked up and useless people in the occult. Nothing but delusional human garbage. I'd say that if you believe in this crap you're an idiot. Time to grow up folks, quite the magical thinking and get own with your life.

The worst thing about the occult communities is the circle jerk they all engage in. Trying to validate empty beliefs, giving their sorry lives some false meaning. Sad, truly sad.