The Veritas Society

Discussion Areas => Magick => Topic started by: bismuth on June 21, 2013, 12:41:40 PM

Title: Mystery schools
Post by: bismuth on June 21, 2013, 12:41:40 PM
Hello Veritas,
I am new here and this is my first post, though I have been a reader of these forums for some time.
Thank you all for sharing your knowledge.

I am wondering if someone here might know the status of several mystery schools, specifically:

- Aurum Solis
- Astrum Sophiae
- Servants of the Light

From what I understand there have been some transitions within these orders and I'm hoping to find out their current standing if possible before I venture onward.

I am also highly interested in The Divine Science.

Have any of you personal recent experiences with these orders and if you do would you mind sharing them?

Thank you all.
Be well.
Title: Re: Mystery schools
Post by: trismegistos on June 21, 2013, 02:05:37 PM
I do not know about the others, but I am a member of The Divine Science and I couldn't recommend it more highly.  In most orders, the Adepts are hidden, aka they likely don't even exist because many orders have just become fraternities (though a few sects of various Orders are still legitimate).  In The Divine Science, you are encouraged to visit and meet the Adepts of the school first hand, and evaluate for yourself their legitimacy.  You will not be disappointed, and will have no doubt of their Adepthood, you will go home feeling incredibly serene for days and weeks afterwards just from how evolutionary their very presence is, since they are emitting evolutionary energies the entire time you are there.  You will also receive teachings that can only be transmitted orally while visiting, and be given transmissions to speed your evolution months ahead of where it would be with just your own meditation, according to how open you are to the transmission.  You will experience some pretty crazy effects during these transmissions, some open up clairvoyance temporarily which is a really incredible thing to experience, to see the Scholarch's transform into their past incarnations before your vary eyes. Also people will be twitching and hopping around like fish out of water from the amount of energy being pumped through the nervous system, it is like when you are doing something like pranayama to purify the nadis, but times a hundred.
Title: Re: Mystery schools
Post by: Koujiryuu on June 21, 2013, 03:38:41 PM
Let's be honest with ourselves, here. I am a Probationer alumni there too.

There is a lot of positive concerning The Divine Science. However, there is also a lot of negative.

I'm not going to get into the positive or negative about their particular methodology but I do want to point a few things out.

However, I will say this:

Nobody is responsible for your own spiritual development but you. Don't trust anyone who says that they've figured it all out for you. Don't trust anyone who says they can give you an "energetic transmission" that will further you on your path without you having to do anything.

Lets keep in mind that Ramose is 25, to my knowledge. Veos is younger, I believe. All of the daskoloi are that age or younger. Do you really think they've figured this all out? How can one so young claim anything? Is there any resounding proof that the "hidden masters" they claimed to learn their tradition from really exist? There are some spurious links in the publicly available documents, but to my knowledge they have presented no proof from a living authority that their teachings are authentic.

They've only been teaching their current methods for about 4 years. Before that, it was Yoga. Before that it was Sikhism. Before that it was Hermetics. Before that it was Elemental magick. That is an overwhelming amount of different approaches in a short time. This exemplifies confusion.

When I was 17, in 2001, I was incarcerated and practicing Kundalini yoga and Qigong for 5 hours day. this is what Ramose was doing then (http://web.archive.org/web/20020820192130/http://undergrounddragon.tripod.com/theunderground/id15.html).

This may be my own personal doubts about the school, but at least I'm honest and grounded. I don't believe everything they say and I don't think they are masters of anything or Enlightened. They know I think this way. They are people, imperfect people who piss and shit just like you and I. They may have some level of spiritual teaching and they are taking steps to teach this to others. This is good. However, you have to really ask yourself, with some of the lectures on their site and the condescending and elitist attitude of some of it... and the fact that they present themselves as something greater by wearing robes and calling themselves weird names... what is the real purpose behind all of it? Is it really necessary to put on a masquerade and have many cult-like ideas and a culture of worshiping people on a pedestal to teach spirituality? They are putting themselves in this position on purpose.

Let us also keep in mind, some of the forum rules and attitudes towards other methods of spirituality shown on the site:

Quote
5. Do not direct students to other teachers. This includes posting videos of other instructors, gurus, hierophants, orders, authors, etc. Discussion outside the forum is fine, but within the forum we can not appear to support other institutions, for the sake of our students and in order to facilitate concentration on the teachings.

6. Avoid controversial topics. We are not here to discuss international politics, civil rights, political events, etc. These invariably lead to disharmony in the group, and disrupt the flow of the school. What may seem barbaric to one culture, may be a respected way of life to another. Focus on what unites us, instead of what creates division.

7. It is the sacred responsibility of every student to keep silently in his heart the special teachings which may have been received from the Hierophants or teachers, wherever those teachings go beyond the scope of the main curriculum of the school. It is permitted and encouraged to discuss teachings from the lectures and the public articles, and to consider and speculate concerning even greater things. But knowledge received orally from the teachers of the tradition should be kept personal and secret, since all students are not permitted to hear all things yet. The same discipline must be used to keep the teachings of our school secret from those not a part of it. The public articles are written for the purpose of public instruction.

Why so much secrecy? Why so much elitism (only certain people are eligible and selected for classes)? Why not promote learning spirituality from ALL Teachers and paths, including ones outside of the site, that are beneficial?

It is a classical sign of a destructive cult to enforce silence, forbid discussion of certain ideas, encourage worshiping the leaders in a cult of personality, and discourage members from reaching out and studying other systems of thought that might make them reflect on the nature of the cult, and eventually leave it.

Quote
You will experience some pretty crazy effects during these transmissions, some open up clairvoyance temporarily which is a really incredible thing to experience, to see the Scholarch's transform into their past incarnations before your vary eyes. Also people will be twitching and hopping around like fish out of water from the amount of energy being pumped through the nervous system, it is like when you are doing something like pranayama to purify the nadis, but times a hundred.

I'm sorry, but in the Probationer class I noticed none of this and I made no connections with anyone in the group I was in. How many of these experiences are people "faking it"? How many people "fake" writing in their journals on that site when they haven't done the practice? How many people outright lie and make things up, especially the Dream collective? I have talked to numerous people on TDS that have told me they are diagnosed schizophrenics. "Seeing the Scholarchs in their past incarnations" (I thought they were called Hierophants? They changed it again?)- is this really true or is it a hallucination of your mind, and hence a delusion? Buddhism says there are 65,000 forms of delusion that the mind can attach to. However, TDS's forums enforce a culture of belief using faith, with a serious lack of introspection and questioning the nature of the experiences. Everyone believes everything everyone else says oftentimes without question. This only produces delusion, and a culture of delusion.

OP, if I were you, I would take all of this with a grain of salt and be careful if you get involved with TDS. The practices are good and they work. They seem to seriously want to help people, and that's great. However, don't believe in the leaders as if they are infallible. Don't trust anyone who says they can do it all for you. Ultimately, that's a lie- you only progress because of your own work and effort.

"“Do not believe in anything simply because you have heard it. Do not believe in anything simply because it is spoken and rumored by many. Do not believe in anything simply because it is found written in your religious books. Do not believe in anything merely on the authority of your teachers and elders. Do not believe in traditions because they have been handed down for many generations. But after observation and analysis, when you find that anything agrees with reason and is conducive to the good and benefit of one and all, then accept it and live up to it.” -Buddha

(If quotes and messages like this were taught on TDS, I wonder how many people would have doubts about the practices and teachers, and gain self understanding because of it?)

Kouji
Title: Re: Mystery schools
Post by: bismuth on June 21, 2013, 03:51:06 PM
trismegistos, thank you for your explanation. This is exactly the kind of response I was hoping for.
I have read only good things about The Divine Science. The only downside is that, as far as I know, they don't have a lodge near my location which is something I was especially interested in.
I would like to be in the physical presence of similar beings as myself if possible.  
Everything else about them is intriguing my spirit. I have signed up to their list, and I will apply once applications are open again.

I have no previous experience with an Order, but I do have experience in matters concerning the spirit.
I'm not sure it is appropriate to say what I have experienced in this life in this post, but I am unbelievably grateful for what has been revealed to me over the past several years.
I will say that something higher has been guiding me around the world, to be in the presence of masters, and what I have received from them is true light. I am convinced they are angels.
These masters are not always accessible however and I must continue on. I will no doubt cross their paths again.  

With that said I would like to continue my spiritual unfoldment with a true Order such as The Divine Science.
I don't want to spread myself too thin, so I want to make sure I make the right decision and to stick with 1.

I look forward to further responses on this discussion.

Thank you all.
Be well.





Title: Re: Mystery schools
Post by: bismuth on June 21, 2013, 05:04:40 PM
Koujiryuu, thank you for your highly informative post.

I agree with everything you're saying regarding trust.
That is younger than I had expected the adepts of TDS to be, what's important is their level of spiritual advancement and from what I understand they have advanced quite far.
It's true that if they have studied all of those things in that amount of time that may be cutting it thin. At the same time, depending on their levels, it may have advanced them further quicker.
I am interested in seeing other responses about TDS in regards to their level of mastery and their connections with ancient lineages.

I have no problem learning from young adepts if what they claim is true. 

Another very important part of my decision is whether or not the Order is contacted or has true connections with ancient lineages.

There are reasons that certain things are kept secret, mainly because it could be highly dangerous in the wrong hands. Surely the adepts would be able to see the intent of those they choose to teach. Plus it keeps the energy more focused and less scattered which I believe is very important.

As far as energetic transmission, I have personally received energetic transmissions from very powerful, shall I say, keepers of the Earth - the angels that I referred to in my previous post. There is absolutely no mistaking their power or how these transmissions transformed my spirit. I have received these transmissions both in the physical and the astral. I can say with absolute confidence that I have never experienced anything more beautiful or powerful in my life thus far. You are correct in that you progress with your own work and effort, even these transmissions I received - had I not been working with them and capable of receiving their power, I would not have received the energy transmissions.

I really appreciate your perspective on this as it's far different than everything else I've read so far about TDS.
That is unfortunate that you felt no connection to the group. Were you physically with this group or was this an online group?
Diagnosed schizophrenics... I only hope they are careful and know what they are getting into by studying these things. That sounds highly dangerous to me.

Is TDS the first Order you have joined?

Thank you all.
Be well.

Title: Re: Mystery schools
Post by: Meroe on June 21, 2013, 10:37:36 PM
Hello Bismuth. I too was once in your shoes. doing as much research as possible, doing different practices from various cultures, reading many a book. I myself, like trismegistos, am a student of the divine science, after being taught by a few different well known lineages. Ill get to parts of that in a moment, but what i personally feel would be beneficial for your judgement is my perspective on what has been said by kourjiryuu, all in good spirit.

Quote
Nobody is responsible for your own spiritual development but you. Don't trust anyone who says that they've figured it all out for you. Don't trust anyone who says they can give you an "energetic transmission" that will further you on your path without you having to do anything.

the first part, is something i have known to be true & is expressly coincides with what is taught in the divine science, (TDS). development is wholly ones personal responsibility. I personally am a very practical kind of person. if something doesnt work, then i discard it. However I am always willing to experiment and learn from different sources, see what fits and what doesnt. I believe that if one has not personally received an energetic transmission then of course its easy to be skeptical of such things. which by the way, is practiced in practically all lineages, especially some one the ones that hand down ancient teachings on things such as kundalini yoga & chi gong, which koujiryuu says he practices. how do i know this? before joining TDS, I was a student of a master of Longmen Pai, aka the Dragon Gate Sect. transmissions are given in initiation ceremonies and other times at the the discretion of teachers and masters merely to help one along their path. this is a universal esoteric concept, done by the chinese, indian, jewish, african, european mystery schools.

Quote
This may be my own personal doubts about the school, but at least I'm honest and grounded. I don't believe everything they say and I don't think they are masters of anything or Enlightened. They know I think this way. They are people, imperfect people who piss and shit just like you and I. They may have some level of spiritual teaching and they are taking steps to teach this to others. This is good. However, you have to really ask yourself, with some of the lectures on their site and the condescending and elitist attitude of some of it... and the fact that they present themselves as something greater by wearing robes and calling themselves weird names... what is the real purpose behind all of it? Is it really necessary to put on a masquerade and have many cult-like ideas and a culture of worshiping people on a pedestal to teach spirituality? They are putting themselves in this position on purpose.

They have never claimed to be masters, or enlightened. in all the teachings and posts i have read they left that up to the reader to decide, based on experiential knowledge of what theyre teaching. this is hardly a cult like way of presenting such things, I feel like its opposite to how you have portrayed the way they claimed to be. im interested in reading where they had an elitist attitude towards anything. what lectures? id like to read this for myself. the concept of wearing robes to signify the difference between the teacher, and the student, is culturally universal. my taoist master did it, just the same as all the lineages in china, the Indians do it, the Judaic practiticioners do it, so how is this relevant? they epouse a greek (neoplatonic) form of hermeticism, within a lineage. within lineages such as theirs, such things are always present. their title is Daskalodos, aka teacher of the way. hardly an ego booster in my opinion. the western mindset downplays & ridicules such things just as you have in your reply, but the truth is for most cultures this is very common, especially for spiritual orders, but such things are present in all forms of society. for example such as british judges/politicians wearing the george washington type whigs along with the rest of a normal judges dress.

explain in what way they promote worship of personality. All of the students i know, only are grateful due to the results, which at the end of the day, all that matters. So if a large amount of people experience spiritual awakenings, clairvoyance, & magical experiences as an exact result of purely their teachings, would it really be that odd for some of them to be a little bit more vocal about their appreciation for the teachers? such things exceedingly rare in our society, let alone within the short amount of time experienced compared to other western orders that i associate with. I think the wide diversity of people whom write their positive experiences should say something. but i respect your opinion.

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Why so much secrecy? Why so much elitism (only certain people are eligible and selected for classes)? Why not promote learning spirituality from ALL Teachers and paths, including ones outside of the site, that are beneficial?

It is a classical sign of a destructive cult to enforce silence, forbid discussion of certain ideas, encourage worshiping the leaders in a cult of personality, and discourage members from reaching out and studying other systems of thought that might make them reflect on the nature of the cult, and eventually leave it.

are there really any mystery schools worth merit that just teach anyone? let alone free? the questions you put forth shows a lack of experience with mystery schools, because this is something that is done to protect teachings that may other wise be abused. just the same as people are screened for guns, or entered into federal systems when they acheive a certain level of mastery of martial arts, this is to protect others. magic is something that can be used to create, or destroy. the level of teachings that i have learned & experienced already, could potentially cause problems in the wrong hands. this is expressly my personal opinion though. TDS does the exact opposite of discouraging people to study other systems. In fact, I personally was practicing Solar Neigong, Chang San Feng Taiji, & an Energetic Sword Form from Quanzhen, they emphatically encouraged me to continue both practicing & learning Taoism, due to it being energetically compatible with their practices. when I visited, they had me perform these forms in front of everyone present, which was probably 30 people, including both daskalodos & the daskaloi. hardly a cult-like attitude in my opinion. matter of fact they encouraged me to introduce a specific practice to a student that was having an issue, from the same daoist sect as the sword form. in the introduction on the website, they expressly encourage students to take up things like taiji, yoga, martial arts in additional to the TDS practices, ETC. I can go on and on about examples of this but there is no need. I do not believe they are encouraging a cult of personality, in any way.

Quote
I'm sorry, but in the Probationer class I noticed none of this and I made no connections with anyone in the group I was in. How many of these experiences are people "faking it"? How many people "fake" writing in their journals on that site when they haven't done the practice? How many people outright lie and make things up, especially the Dream collective? I have talked to numerous people on TDS that have told me they are diagnosed schizophrenics. "Seeing the Scholarchs in their past incarnations" (I thought they were called Hierophants? They changed it again?)- is this really true or is it a hallucination of your mind, and hence a delusion? Buddhism says there are 65,000 forms of delusion that the mind can attach to. However, TDS's forums enforce a culture of belief using faith, with a serious lack of introspection and questioning the nature of the experiences. Everyone believes everything everyone else says oftentimes without question. This only produces delusion, and a culture of delusion.

If you were only in the probationers class, then of course you noticed none of this. there is no guarantee that one will make such connections, but a number of students do. What bismuth was talking about was visiting them in person, and the receiving the transmissions there. I personally have experienced the exact things that he has, & i can assure that i have no form of mental illness in any capacity. If anything, showing that they would accept people with certain mental illnesses which are easily treatable with modern medicine shows me that they do not discriminate on that basis, which i think is a case in which they should be praised, rather than slandered. I dont think its reasonable to assume that every single person that have wrote of their experiences, seeing as though theres more than 100 within a 4 year period, & the fact that they're scattered across the entire planet, from many different countries, creeds, cultures and ways of life, are faking it.

Introspection is, infact one of the first practices we are taught within the school which we are required to do after every practice session, retrospection as well actually. seeing as though kouji is a probationer alumni, he surely has this lecture. and expressly doesn't mention it to further project his opinion upon the seeker, in my honest opinion.

i feel that you seeing them grow up into what they have become has created a shade of prejudice and disbelief at what they have accomplished which is nothing less than completely remarkable. the fact that you say that the practices work but then discourage this seeker to check them out says a lot.

in all, the only reason i felt this to be necessary was to provide another perspective. i respect koujis opinion, as much as anyone else. but seeing as i have personally experienced vast and unprecedented growth, even faster than i had experienced using teachings that are close to 1000 years old from other very respected and well known lineages, I feel i would be a fool and selfish not to show another perspective and to encourage the seeker to check out the school. just as with anything, not every school is suited to everyone, but i believe you will find what youre looking for and so, so much more with TDS. i wish you luck on your path, whether it be with TDS or not.
Title: Re: Mystery schools
Post by: Dancing_Crow on June 21, 2013, 10:46:48 PM
Why so much secrecy?

I learned recently that the "secret" bandied about in many "secret" societies is a "secret" that cannot be communicated in words even if a member of those societies wanted to impart it. The act of participating in a specific initiation imparts a secret to the one being initiated that cannot be put into words. The details of the ritual/rite can be talked about and spread to the whole world but at the end of the day, that person received a "secret" that is beyond words. I'm not in the Divine Science nor do I know much about it so I'm speaking from the outside and just offering this up in general about the idea of "secret knowledge." Its not so much that it's a secret meaning don't tell anyone about X but rather it's a secret because it is beyond words. Just throwing that out there.

Thanks for sharing this information with us Kouijiryuu. I'm also of the opinion that no one can walk the walk for you... at the end of the day you have to do the interior work no one can do that for you. I disagree with what I understand you to say regarding energetic transmission though. I've experienced it. From my point of view, energetic transmissions are not so much someone else doing your spiritual work for you but rather making a reservoir of energy available to me that I wouldn't otherwise have access to in order to do my own interior work.

Thanks again.
Title: Re: Mystery schools
Post by: Impervious on June 21, 2013, 11:25:26 PM
I, for one, agree with Koujiryuu on this. I think that Ramose and Veos are excellent spiritual teachers. They definitely know what they are doing, and they've helped me a lot. Having been through the Probationer class myself, however, I do think too much of an emphasis is placed on them being infallible. Nobody is infallible, and it is foolish to think that anybody is.

I am not trying to "dis" on TDS or anything like that. I would love to continue with the classes once I have a more reliable income, but I have several problems with the school. They are much the same as Kouji's, but I will post them in a numbered list below, if for no other reason than to re-emphasize his points.

1.  They did ask most of us to solely focus on their teachings when I was a probationer. If you had a very good reason to be practicing yoga or something, they were willing to make exceptions of course, but the general sentiment seemed to be that you should definitely only be performing what they told you to. (After reading Meroe's post, I am willing to concede that this has either changed, or I was reading things the wrong way. I still think that this was at least heavily implied in some of the lessons.)

2. There is no room for disagreeing with the Hierophants/Scholarchs/Daskolodoi (can someone please tell me what to call them? I'm not trying to be rude, but I really have no idea what they go by now). If you don't agree with any of the teachings, you are not supposed to say anything about it on the forums. This is a HUGE issue for me. If the system is as good as many believe it to be, it should be able to stand on its merits against any sort of criticism. I've seen a lot of people disagree with Koujiryuu's views on Qi Gong, and kobok's interpretation of Psi, yet they are both still more than willing to debate their 'attackers'. I've also NEVER seen either of them try to straight-up ban people from disagreeing with them. They are both confident enough in their own paths to take any criticism in stride. Healthy debate and criticism is a good thing. The fact that TDS seems to disallow this speaks volumes to me.

3. Everything about TDS does SEEM cult-like. I won't go so far as to actually call the school a cult, because I don't think that Ramose or Veos intend it to be, but many of their students do treat it like one. They place their masters on an untouchable pedestal and obey their every word unquestioningly. Questioning their authority (see above) is almost seen as a threat. Their dubious claims of an invisible lineage stretching back to the time of Pythagoras and Plato only further remove the masters from their actual human nature. In short, if you disagree with anything the masters have to say, then you are considered wrong, regardless of any sort of concrete evidence you have.

4. There IS too much emphasis placed on the teachers doing things for you. Yes, they expect you to do daily meditations. Yes, they expect you to do a good amount of work by yourself. But, at the same time, it is implied that without their transmissions, and without the energies of the teachers, it will take you close to an eternity to reach any tangible goals. This makes no sense. Spiritual practice is a good thing, regardless of if you do or don't have teachers like that. It is simply a fact that you can make a lot of progress on your own. It isn't like members of TDS are the only ones who can make meditation "work".

I will re-iterate: I think TDS is a fantastic school, and I think Ramose and Veos are fantastic people. Their policies are what I take issue with. It's so sad to me, because I think the school could stand just fine even if it allowed criticism on its forums, or even if it didn't claim an (impossible to prove) lineage. They don't need any of their cult-like policies to be a good school; I think they would be an even greater school without them. It brings me great sadness that they think these policies are necessary.

I am sorry for any run-on or fragment sentences; I'm typing this out on the fly.

EDIT: Also, can we get some info about those other orders in this thread, so we aren't discussing only one of the orders Bismuth mentioned? Isn't there a thread somewhere in the Magick forums that talked about the pros and cons of various orders? I'll try to find it in the morning.
Title: Re: Mystery schools
Post by: Dancing_Crow on June 22, 2013, 01:41:25 AM
Here are some links to some old threads on some Orders. Not sure if the info therein is still relevant.

Going to Join AMORC:  http://forums.vsociety.net/index.php/topic,16707.0.html
Orders: http://forums.vsociety.net/index.php/topic,15922.0.html
Occult Orders: http://forums.vsociety.net/index.php/topic,8811.0.html
Working Alone or in a Group: http://forums.vsociety.net/index.php/topic,15835.0.html
Starting out properly: http://forums.vsociety.net/index.php/topic,19027.0.html
Title: Re: Mystery schools
Post by: Arrow on June 22, 2013, 01:44:01 AM
I am a student of the Divine Science and I hope the following explanation can help ease your frustration or possible fear about the school. I have been in it for years now and have witnessed many things for myself and can offer you some insight. I cannot address every issue but I can focus on the more important subjects.

This is for Koujiryuu mainly. Firstly, have you gone past the Probationer class? As a probationer, you are given very basic concepts as to what the school teaches. I don't believe you have not been in the school long enough to be considered a student yet. It's possible that you are very "wet behind the ears" and do not have enough personal experience with the school to make the claims you have stated. Have you gone to visit them in person yet?

Ramose and Veos encourage everyone to visit in person so that it is more a personable means of learning about their teachings. The online school is only the virtual outlet for the school. What really counts is the time you get to spend in person around Ramose and Veos, the assistant teachers and fellow students of the school. At their home, you can meet many other well-grounded, warm hearted people who have many stories about their experiences with the school. I believe this is the experience you should try to have first before really deciding for yourself whether they are legitimate or not. Until then, it can only be distant observation and guesswork as for their legitimacy. Healthy skepticism is good to have. It will keep you safe from harm of those unfortunate spiritual leaders who really are out for money, lots of students and fame. Although, if there is too much skepticism, it can cause an accidental misunderstanding of those who really are good spiritual teachers and have important teachings to offer.

Yes, Ramose and Veos are fairly young in age but they are wise in spirit. There are students of all ages who come to learn from them. They have been practicing since they were 14 years of age. In spiritual matters, physical age isn't really a factor to determine someone legitimacy as a teacher anyhow. And if they are already giving spiritual transmissions and teaching at a young age, I find that to be even more impressive. :)

Divine Science is secretive about teachings that are too advanced for anyone who isn't ready to receive them. It is for the safety of new students that they do not receive spiritual practices and knowledge too soon. Even knowledge alone can be too powerful for the mind to understand. In order to ensure that students receive the teachings when their ready, the school asks that people do not share their teachings with others. If someone is ready to receive new teachings, it's required that a well-rounded experienced teacher give them the proper knowledge and practice to ensure they receive the right information.

In the spiritual communities, if you look hard enough, spiritual transmissions are quite common. I have seen this amongst revered buddhist lamas, yogi saints and a daoist teacher. It is this personal experience in my own life that allows me to understand that what Ramose and Veos are doing is quite the real deal. In the west, it is very hard to see a westerner do such things as this when we commonly see eastern teachers lead spiritual communities.

I looked over the list of numbered problems that Impervious has with the school. These things I can find to be understandable for anyone new to the school. I may be able to help you understand why it has the policies it does. The school is set up for practice and advancement for students who will take the path seriously and with much dedication. I've been a part of a few other traditions, and this one has been the hardest to train in because they require more out of you. In other traditions, they're a little more flexible in how you decide to advance, whether that takes a few months or the rest of your life, it's up to you. In the Divine Science however, the teachers require you to study and be practicing in order to advance further. There is very close communication with your teacher. This takes work on the students end which a lot of Orders don't really encourage you to do.

Next to the intense training system, the body of the school (the community, cultural norms, policies, etc) of the school is based around old spiritual traditions that have been used for thousands of years. You can find other such norms that revolve around traditions such as buddhism, daoism, sufism and the yogis for example. And the Divine Science has one as well.

At the end of the day, if anyone doesn't feel comfortable being a part of a particular spiritual community, it simply may not be for them. There are many countless traditions out there that may be more suitable. No one is forced to stay or learn from Ramose and Veos or any of their assistant teachers. They are open to all with loving arms who wish to learn in the school but they also understand that it isn't for everyone. They wish spiritual growth for every person, no matter what school they wish to be a part of.

Title: Re: Mystery schools
Post by: bismuth on June 22, 2013, 04:29:34 AM
Thank you Meroe, Impervious, and Dancing_Crow for your responses. I'll try and respond to everything as best I can.  

It's true, as your spirit awakens it lays out a path of light for you to follow. On that path there are many options and other paths that want to distract you that it can get very confusing. Books, teachers - some real, some not, some you simply don't agree with. A friend of mine wanted me to join a school he is in, and when I went I was shocked when I heard their speaker talk. It was practically fear mongering in the disguise of light - theirs was the only way and you better practice or else you will not make advancement in this life. I highly believe in their path but their presentation really threw me off. There may be one true path, but too many claim it to be so. I was surprised someone that was supposedly so spiritually advanced was speaking this way. I believe there are many paths up the mountain of enlightenment, and the same path does not work for all. We are all at different points of evolution in this eternal existence and all of our vehicles are different in this life. You can't sail a boat down a gravel road.

I am grateful that my spirit has lead me to the mystery schools but there are many to choose from. I have narrowed it down to the above mentioned and even then it is difficult to choose. I mean no disrespect to any self-initiates by saying this, but what I am looking for is not a school started by recent self-initiates. I have no doubt that they would have many great things to offer and teach, but I am personally looking for a contacted school with a more solid history. Personally, I do not doubt the lineages that TDS claim, it is obvious they have students advancing at a very quick rate and I am still highly interested in them. The original teachings come from a divine source, and these ancient lineages hold keys to your spirit that something more modern may not, and can better lead your spirit down a path that will enable you to give back to creation and spread your light in a way that only an adept of those lineages can.

I haven't personally noticed any elitism coming from TDS, rather they seem to be the opposite - the posts that Veos, Prophecy, Koujiryuu, and others have shared with this community are, the real deal and not theoretical. Everyone here seems to go out of their way to share and help others.  
The colored robes, wands, objects all of those - that is tradition spanning back since the beginning and I think psychologically it also plays a huge role, it makes it special and specific. The theatrical aspect not only carries its own energy (for example, certain energies or spirits are attracted to certain colors or objects), but it makes it more official. I've always appreciated everyone's own rituals. Most important is that there was a reason that they have done it like this since the beginning in the first place. I question most things, but I am not about to question the rituals of an Egyptian or Atlantian priest and I'm glad to see these traditions and rituals are being carried on.

At the beginning of their teachings I can understand that they would want you to focus on their teachings temporarily at least, because if you are studying too many things your advancements may become muddy and it will be difficult to tell what advancement came from where. I think it's also important because it will give you a feel for their energy and their system more clearly. I am currently studying Qi Gong with a master from China, but once I join an Order I will be taking a break from it temporarily so I can focus on the energy of the Order. After a while I will combine the two and study them together. Hopefully they will compliment each other and accelerate my progress.

As far as the energy transmissions go, they are very real. I should have explained before that it wasn't a mere touch of the shoulder and I'm immediately advanced - no, it is much different. It is a very specific set and order of movements and sounds, like placing the pieces of a puzzle together, but instead it's placing and aligning pieces of the energy of your spirit. It is not to be misinterpreted as someone doing the work for you. When you cross paths with a master such as these, it is exactly what was supposed to happen - it was determined as part of your path. Your spirit did do the work, by making sure you got there. We all come from the same source, and I believe it is what we are meant to do, when the right spirits cross our paths. We are to help them unfold, and I know for a fact that is what I am meant to do in this life when I am able to. It was told and shown to me that my gift is to help others in this way, helping others remove the layers of darkness to reveal their inner light. In doing so it is not helping only them, but when more people start connecting with their spirit and the inner light begins to shine, it advances the vibration of this entire reality. We are meant to help each other get there. I hope that people don't think of this as doing your spiritual work for you. This is why we have the mystery schools and the masters. It would take millions upon millions of more years of evolution to reach levels we are now capable of reaching without learning and receiving from others and the enlightened masters.

It is true, the secrets and the energy transmissions that one receives are almost beyond words. I don't really know how to explain what I received, other than that it was a planned part of my path to receive them and that it advanced me significantly further to the point that it's like several new "layers" have been added on to my reality and I don't see or feel the same. In everything now I see creation and the creator, and when I move around, with focus, it is similar to moving through water. Very hard to describe. It is like my spirit bloomed like a flower, and like a plant that breaks through the dirt, it is now constantly reaching toward the light. Compared to this, previously it was like I was viewing the world through tunnel vision, with a smoke screen over my eyes. I am truly grateful.

Is there anyone out there that can shed some light on the other Orders listed also? There are posts from several years ago explaining how they were transitioning or changing entirely their views and so I was hoping to find out more about their current status as I respect them all highly.

Thank you all again.
Be well.



Title: Re: Mystery schools
Post by: bismuth on June 22, 2013, 04:38:52 AM
Thank you Dancing_Crow for that list, I have actually gone through those threads previous to my original post multiple times, and they were a huge help in my deciding upon my final list to choose from.
The posts are several years old and I'm not sure they reflect the current status of the mentioned schools but I appreciate you posting them.

Arrow thank you for your response, I agree with you on your points.
I think it is very important for one to be in physical presence of their teachers, and other students.
Does TDS have any sort of lodge in the North East?

Thank you all.
Be well. 

Title: Re: Mystery schools
Post by: Impervious on June 22, 2013, 06:44:28 AM
 Thank you, Arrow. That didn't really change my opinions, but it did ease a few concerns. Also, I'm glad to have more positive posts about TDS in this thread. Hopefully, if nothing else, bismuth will have a balanced idea of what to expect if he does join TDS. :)

Dancing_Crow: Thanks very much for finding those links!

EDIT: I  just noticed the other posts. Forgive me for not inserting quotes, but I'm having trouble using my phone. :P

bismuth: Unless I am mistaken, their only house/temple is  located somewhere in Florida. Many people find the trip worth it, though. I know of one student, at least, who found a way to travel from Las Vegas to get there. So long as you keep an open mind to their teachings, but also remain skeptical and analytical, I can't imagine the trip not being worth it in some way.
Title: Re: Mystery schools
Post by: Koujiryuu on June 22, 2013, 12:58:16 PM
I'm just going to touch on a few things here for simplicities' sake.

First, I respect Ramose and Veos greatly. I have known Ramose online for years, probably longer than anyone here, and though I don't believe everything he says, and I don't agree with some of the ways he does things, I know he is a wise person and a great teacher. Ultimately, however, I have been practicing exclusively Qigong and Yoga since they were 9 years old. Keep in mind how many different paths they've claimed are correct since they were 14. When I see signs in front of their temple in pictures with phrases like "respect your spiritual seniors" it causes many alarms to go off. I don't think there is such a thing, nor should it be any kind of competition. The various grades of students within the order are assigned titles and ranks and this causes competition. I disagree with this, just like I disagree with playing dress up to make ourselves feel special (REGARDLESS of tradition, it's the same thing). I should also make it clear I am not a teacher of TDS or affiliated with them in any way besides being a former Probationer, since Bismuth kind of lumped me in there. I am a Veritas Teacher and I run my study group and teaching here.

I am glad you all have had positive experiences. I am especially glad they allowed you to demonstrate a Qigong form in front of people and encouraged people to seek spirituality wherever you can find it. This, however, does not remedy the facts that myself and Impervious presented about outside teachings and traditions being officially discouraged on the website, and a culture of secrecy (even if it's for a supposed good reason), these are two telltale signs of a cult.

If it's black and white and it moos, it's probably a cow.

I don't doubt that some students have had results from energetic transmissions. I am a skeptic and a realist however, and I know for a fact that some people fake, embellish or exaggerate their actual experiences in order to gain attention and feel "special". This happens everywhere, including here. When the experiences are subjective and they aren't analyzed, studied scientifically, proven to be repeatable, and verified in real life through proof, this causes problems. However, it didn't seem that this kind of culture of self verification of metaphysical experiences is encouraged or even thought of on TDS.

No, I haven't visited them because I cannot afford to, and I'm generally averse to weird cults. Again, there are many signs of this evaluation. Additionally, I would feel no different if I visited a Daoist cult, a Hindu ashram, or any other Western order. To their benefit, TDS doesn't charge anywhere near some of the ridiculous prices and member fees other cults do (siddhayoga.org). They don't ask for $2500 for a weekend retreat for a "shaktipat intensive" or anything like that. So, credit to them there. However, this doesn't change my evaluation, and many members of Veritas agree with this evaluation, though I won't name names. Again, if it's black and white and moos, it is a cow. I think 95% of educated American adults would probably agree here, regarding ANY such order.

Quote
the body of the school (the community, cultural norms, policies, etc) of the school is based around old spiritual traditions that have been used for thousands of years.

The community, cultural norms, policies, and the students in general are my biggest problem with the school. I believe in the teachings of Ramose and Veos and believe they can advance you spiritually. Having known Ramose for a long time, I trust him as a teacher, and I trust those he has installed as teachers, under him. I disagree with charging money for spiritual teaching and I disagree with taking steps to make yourself seem like you have authority, such as playing dress up and so on. However, who I don't trust is the overall community, and the problems with lying about experiences and faking things that are immediately obvious to anyone who reads the forums. I also dislike the methods of grading students into different classes, and then that stuff coming back to me like "oh you're only a Probationer you're wet behind the ears" and so on. Perhaps I cannot make an accurate assessment about the school because I haven't visited. However, it seems to me that anyone who goes there does it to get personal attention from Ramose and Veos, and they could probably care less about the other people there. The whole focus is on the teachers, and they give lectures and so on. It seems like it's less about the other students, and in my experience online I didn't connect with or care about anyone else's progress, only my own. I think that mentality carries over into real life visits and I think it's a problem.

Someone mentioned something about "how many mystery orders have you been in"... and to that I say none other than TDS, because again, I'm averse to mind control and cults. I think a lot of people join these kinds of orders to feel different and special compared to other people who are not in it, and who don't have the secrets, and don't get to play dress up and make believe. I have worked hard on my path for 15 years and I am solely responsible for my own progress in Qigong and Yoga. I don't need to be in an order because I am more confident in my own ability to lead myself spiritually, and this is exactly what I was getting at. I don't believe in masters, there is no such thing as a master or enlightenment, read U.G. Krishnamurti. I am my own master.

To that end, I believe the teachers at TDS can help you and the practices can help you if you can ignore all the bullshit from other people and ignore some of the things like controlled suppression of dissension and information. That was my main point and my only point. YOU are responsible for your own spiritual progress, no one else can do it for you, and if they tell you they can they are lying.

I went into my Probationer class skeptically, my thoughts about the school were skeptical, and knowing some of Ramose posts as Prophecy here and his often grandiose claims, I ultimately was skeptical of him as well. Because of this, I was able to participate objectively, and since I haven't visited or made friends with anybody, I am still able to remain objective about the school. My objective evaluation from an outsiders perspective is that it appears to be a cult, and I can say this because I have researched exactly what a cult is and the psychology behind mind control and thought reform. Ultimately, I did gain something of value from the school, in the Vision of the Angel meditation, and I am interested in continuing further in the school. However, again, I am objective and grounded in reality and accept things for what they are. So, this doesn't change my evaluation, even if I did find some benefit from the teachings.

Ultimately, people are going to believe what they're going to believe, oftentimes without rationality, logic, introspection (how many people actively try to prove the reality of their experiences there scientifically?) and scientific validity. Personally, while I respect Ramose, I do think he runs a cult, and he knows I think this, but is such a good teacher that he answers my questions and accepts me for who I am and what I do anyway. This is an excellent quality. I believe others can learn from him and I believe what he is trying to do is positive, but I have many of my own doubts and questions and despite expressing them, they are unresolved and unanswered by the teachers there.

I wish you all the best of luck. Not everyone is going to agree that the place is 100% positive.

It should be noted that Veritas has no affiliation with Ramose and Veos and TDS and technically they are retired teachers here. We do not endorse or support them as an organization. Veritas and TDS have always been and will always be separate entities.
Title: Re: Mystery schools
Post by: Prophecy on June 22, 2013, 05:51:16 PM
Don't be so dramatic. There are no conspiracy theories, cults, mind-control, or any other Illuminati/New-Age backwards working taking place. Too much television and Youtube videos.

History has already defended most things, so there is no point going into great detail. The transmission of energy is called Shaktipat in yogic culture, it is in their scriptures, and it has been done for a very long time, apparently with good results. I have met many people who have accomplished things that also believed in its power. Wearing robes, using items, etc, is also all very traditional. Taoists, Buddhists, Sufis, Swamis, etc, all do the exact same thing, and they are all making plenty of progress, and seem to be doing fine. Many traditions change or add things to their names upon initiation: Taoists, Buddhists, Sufis, Swamis, Native Americans, etc, all do this exact same thing, and they all seem to be doing fine in spite of it. You just have to understand my general approach. My general approach is to never, ever, assume that I am smarter than all of these people, with their combined thousands of years of experience and resounding success on the spiritual path.

There is no problem or harm though in any criticisms, it is all very good and productive, and makes people think. Veos and I were very aware when we started the school that it would be strange to most westerners, and a little hard to swallow. People use the word "cult" alot, and I am beginning to think that being a cult is a good thing. So far, it seems to mean being organized (having a staff, budget, etc), having a clear teaching structure (such as professors vs. teachers), having a set curriculum (like a college course), having a support structure (akin to guidance counselors, clubs, etc), encouraging a community (like school activities do), and being good enough at what you do that more and more people also want to try it out. As a bonus, you get to dress like a wizard and its okay. Before I did all of these things with my teachings, no one ever, literally not once ever in all my time here at Veritas, called me a cult leader, even though I still had many "followers" and "students."

As for criticisms being handled in the school, that is just my way, I'm old-school like that. Its the way I learned, and its the way I teach. I'm not teaching because I'm interested in your opinion, and hundreds of students are not joining the school because they are interested in your opinion. That is a harsh truth and does not go well with the more fluffy approach to things today. Not everyone will like it, some people leave, and I hope they find what they are looking for. I like that they leave, and the students who remain tend to do very well. I might add that in reference to talking about other traditions, other teachers, etc, we do this constantly in person at the actual house and during the meditation retreats. I just don't like it being done on the forum, I'm funny like that. I also do not think it is nice to call hundreds of students frauds, liars, victims of hypnotism, or whatever else. I've met many of them, they are my friends and good people. If you do not understand what they are experiencing then just say to yourself "they are experiencing something but I do not know what," and leave it there. This is actually the reasonable approach.

Finally, no one is ever forced to learn from Veos and I. We are who we are, we teach how we teach. God has provided the world with many spiritual teachers from all traditions so that seekers have the power to choose. So when you come to try and learn from us, if you don't like the way we teach then to me the honorable action is to happily go on your way to a different teacher. I have had to do this also, but at no time did I ever downtalk those who had honestly tried to help me. And if you say whatever you want about us, know at least that Veos and I do always at least try to help you. If you do not wind up liking the way that we try, then we deeply hope that you find what you are looking for elsewhere, and are never petty about it in any way.

We are not brainwashers, cult-leaders, or reptilians from the moon, these three being equally absurd and following the same conspiracy mindset. On the other hand, neither are we masters, ascended beings, infallible, all-knowing, or any other equally-silly accusation. I'm a fellow who has been practicing for about ten years, I saw some really enjoyable results, I learned some neat things from some neat people, and I am passing it on while still very much being on the path myself. Disgruntled people tend to be the loudest, so a few of my disgruntled people talk on Veritas about the school, but the overwhelming majority seems to really be enjoying my efforts.

That is how I feel about myself. I want to share whatever I know with whoever is ready to endure the objectively simple constraints that I require. If you can't endure those, I do not know what else you can endure anyways.

Now if you have any questions about the school, questions not accusations, feel free to ask here and I will reply. A pinch of knowledge dispels tons of worry, superstition, or imagination. I normally don't spend much time on other forums, but I will check back here a few times.
Title: Re: Mystery schools
Post by: Koujiryuu on June 22, 2013, 06:14:06 PM
I wasn't attempting to be dramatic and I apologize if it came off that way.

I appreciate you posting this, and I hope you understand my viewpoint. As you yourself said, many people would observe TDS and see that it has things in common with a cult. Whether this is good or bad doesn't really matter because it's just a perception. I do disagree with some of the policies concerning discussing other styles on the forums but I can understand why it's done. However, for some people like me, we might feel uncomfortable being associated with what could be perceived as a cult. This probably doesn't matter to you, and it shouldn't, but it is ultimately my own problem to work through before continuing in the school.

I didn't mean to insinuate that your students are ALL liars or that they are incapable of seeing things objectively. I have, however, noticed a trend of experiences being talked about without questioning whether the experiences are valid or not. I have to wonder how many people make things up and how many people exaggerate their experiences.

Ultimately, the essence of my advice wasn't any kind of conspiracy theory stuff. The essence of my advice is to trust yourself first, and not let anyone else tell you they can produce metaphysical results for you. I would encourage anyone interested in TDS to check it out for themselves and then decide if they want to follow that path. I believe in what you are doing and I believe in the practices, but on the other hand, I do see it as being cult-like, which I've made clear. I think this is a result of the robes, secrecy, and social structure of the school. This IS something you have instituted and are doing, and I'll be clear, I wouldn't feel comfortable with those kinds of things in any other capacity either, but that's just me.

I meant no offense, but at the same time, I have to be honest about my problems and perceptions of the school. I am not going to lie to myself, or the others here who feel disenfranchised with the school (I have received quite a few PMs because of this thread. I am not the only one with this point of view, but others are quiet about it).

Again, what should matter is the students own progress and wisdom and practices. Everything else is secondary to that.

I apologize if I offended you at all. I was not trying to be petty. These are ultimately my own problems and issues with the school that I need to work through, but others can empathize and understand why I have doubts.

I respect you and value your advice and teachings and will continue in the school at some point in the future. Again- I am strong willed and I'm not going to lie to myself or others about what I really think, and what I think some of the problems are.

Joe

Title: Re: Mystery schools
Post by: Prophecy on June 22, 2013, 06:29:58 PM
There is no problem and no offense, and it is good to share your opinions. The school is not for everyone, and those who do not like it tend to collect here.  Detractors are good, and make people think. Joining anything, whether its an academic college, a job, or an esoteric school, should be carefully thought out first, and one should know what is being gotten into. In the end I am just happy to have found a layout which at least helps most people, and that most have been happy with; there is no way to make it good for everyone.
Title: Re: Mystery schools
Post by: Koujiryuu on June 22, 2013, 06:57:43 PM
That is exactly the attitude I respect.

I'm very independent, I've had my own practices for a long time, and I'm a freethinker. I wish I could just put my doubts aside and wholeheartedly believe in the system and teachings and forget about the problems I have with some of it. Ultimately, I think that's what it will take to be able to continue.

Again, myself and some others have doubts about the validity of the lineage that aren't adequately addressed in the publicly available documentation, which seems to cover the historical background of the lineage and practices, going back to Plato.

What would be most useful is if you could give us some kind of documentation about the current 'hidden masters' you received the teachings from, even if you can't name names- but if you could provide some kind of supporting story of where you traveled, the people you met (with names changed), and exactly how you uncovered and received the practices and the lineage. A lot of my personal doubts surround this point of contention, because I haven't seen any proof of this. Knowing how much you've jumped between paradigms in the past, it would be interesting to know more about where the current one comes from and why it stuck. I suppose that would be my greatest question.
Title: Re: Mystery schools
Post by: jayfk on June 22, 2013, 07:10:41 PM
Hey Prophacy can you talk a little more about the Divine Science school? More specifically I'd like to hear about some situations while teaching that made you feel proud to be the students teachers and one or two times that you have been disappointed by a student. I'm not asking for particular names or anything I think it would help others see things from both sides and give people looking at this thread more info about the school.

I'd like to hear more about it from your perspective specifically as you have been part of this for awhile and have a unique perspective on the going ons of the place, i've been following the activity on this thread throughout the day.

Title: Re: Mystery schools
Post by: Prophecy on June 22, 2013, 09:07:13 PM
Very good questions. 

First, about the lineage.
Your doubts are perfectly reasonable! The truth is that, like I say at the beginning of that article, I was extremely hesitant to talk about the Platonic lineage for exactly that reason: there simply is no real way to prove it. It is the legend of the Sufi lineage that I connected to, but no one could adequately connect all the dots. Thus I spent a year doing my own extensive research on the lineage and put together what seemed to be the most plausible chain, based on the dates of the authorship of certain manuscripts which I knew for a fact the Tariqa library had, which strongly suggested that the Order itself was in fact descended from the early Sufis it claimed to be. In short I was able to trace the lineage back to Dhul Nun al-Misri, who has the story that he met a group of mystics in Akhmim called the Companions of Simplicius (Awilaya Simflicus), Simplicius having been the last major disciple of Damascius in Athens, who was himself the last Scholarch of the Platonic Academy. Unfortunately this leaves a much unwanted gap of over 200 years, and a leap of faith where we assume that if Simplicius was indeed ever in Akhmim, a circle of his students survived for a considerable time there. I made that leap because it was interesting to me, and because it seems the closest to connecting to the old Greek school out of any other lineage I've encountered. The truth is that you do not really need a direct link, because the Islamic Golden Age and Sufi Philosophy in general revolved around Platonic Philosophy, and began with Al-Kindi and Al-Farabi's translations of Plato, Aristotle, and Plotinus anyways. But there were some fascinating manuscripts, such as a manuscript about talismans said to have been written by Apollonius of Tyana, and one on magic circles ascribed to Simplicius, which showed that the Sufi school itself at least placed importance on its alleged Greek connection.

As for other lineages, I have to be careful here. The Greek lineage came through a Sufi tariqah based in Morocco. We also received an ordination from a Sidiq of the Kalvati-Tajjaniya, who in fact we let all of our local students meet because he visited my house. He officially recognized that Veos and I in fact already knew the secret practices of his lineage, and conferred lineage-recognition. He also taught us his Order's version of our practices.  I've had several Sifus from different tongs, Longmen, Tien Shi, Quanzhen, and Shang Ching schools who have taught me a great deal. The latter was especially hard to acquire as a westerner. I've been initiated into the first four levels of the Mo Pai also, but turned down the opportunity to proceed because the fourth technique is absurd, unnatural, and sacrifices spiritual attainment for physical powers. Still, I sometimes teach the first three to people very serious about their martial arts. We have recognition from the Kalvati-Tajjaniya and the Chistiyah Orders, one based in Morocco, the other previously based in Damascus but I have not been in touch with them since the outbreak of the Syrian war and fear the worst. So much for China and the Middle East. From India Veos and I are connected to two yogic lineages from Matsyendranath, one of which recognized us formally as westerners this past Winter in India during a major celebration, where Veos and I were the guests of honor and carried their sacred idol of Gorakshanath through the streets and into the Godavari river for its sacred bath, before receiving the sacred kunduls (nath earings) and partaking in a special fire ritual. We have also learned three different versions of the popular Kriya Yoga, from Yogananda and Hariharananda's lineages. We have friends among the Palyul Nyigma sect, which has a small commune here in Florida, and the Kagyu Biddhist lineage which has a center here in my hometown, who have shared many of their lineages practices with us. A Rinpoche gave Veos and I a special recognition this year also, sacred to their tradition. After years of practice we now receive less techniques and initiations, and more "ordinances" and "recognitions." Most of these old communities are very eager to share if they can tell you are actually practicing and attaining things. I mention these because they are the more well known schools, there is no need to mention the others because their existence usually can not be proved.

There are two reasons why I do not go into all of the precise details about the lineages: firstly, because I feel no need to validate the system I am teaching by rattling off a long line of names. I believe that its success is its own proof, and it is indeed producing resounding success. Secondly, and most importantly, because the teachers I am actually close to do not want to be openly associated with magic, which still has a massive stigma in most parts of the world (even among Taoists). Veos and I were practically subject to a witch hunt in India when a group of people discovered we were magicians! I also learned early on, years ago, that it is frustrating to tell your student something, only to have him call your teacher and ask the same thing behind you.

After all of this, I still settled on Hermetic theurgy. It is, to me, one of the most beautiful approaches to the universe I have encountered, and I want to share it in a practical and operative form, providing methodology, for others who are also drawn to it. Since it was lacking greatly in its modern form, I supplemented it with the wisdom I soaked in from much older traditions all over the world. I believe that theurgy has been degraded by 1,500 years of religious prosecution, during which time other systems were allowed to grow and flourish while it was forced to hide. Thus, I'm catching it up. It is also important to know, I believe, that though Veos and I have received teachings from all of these lineages, it is impossible to fully dedicate yourself to so many things. We learned them because we were searching for the right puzzle pieces to fit into theurgy, not because we needed more practices. Our core set of practices have been stable for a long time, and are theurgic in nature.

To Jay's question.
I am always proud to be a teacher. The truth is that our school has had resounding effects. I regularly share the experiences of my students with my own teachers, Sifus and Lamas and Rinpoches and Sheikhs, and they are all consistently blown away by the progress the students in general are making. I am blown away by them. It is easy to imagine that many of them make certain things up, but the truth is that Veos and I have never once shared the marks and symptoms which occur spontaneously when true progress is being made, but we examine our students for them. That way we know when someone is telling the truth, or when they are just imitating what they have read or seen someone else do. Very specific things occur. New lines appear on the palm, special markings on the fingernails, certain specific mudras are formed spontaneously, etc. The signs so far have been very impressive. So it is hard to share  specific time I was proud. But here is a good one. One of our senior students was sitting and praying in a Church in England. An older lady walked in and for a moment thought she was seeing an angel, because there was light coming off of him. She approached him and he looked normal, so she talked to him. She was overcome by bliss and peace during her conversation, and finally asked what on earth was so different about him. He told her about the school and she joined, and told me the story. In fact we have a number of members who joined because they were inspired after meeting one of our students in person. The vast majority of our students are from personal reference: people who were amazed by the positive transformations they were seeing in the life of a friend, and wanted to try what he was doing. I am always especially proud when the senior students finally begin to open their clairvoyant faculties, and for the first time start to see the world around them they have been missing.

The disappointments have been there, but we shouldn't dwell on them. The only real source of disappointment is when we have a student which shows all the signs of extraordinary potential, but has one or two tragic flaws that ultimately prevent him or her from taking a real step forward. For example, a great student with a terrible drug addiction is a real tragedy and a frustration for me, when I want to see them all succeed. Others crack from fears and irrational phobias. I had a female student once who, when she joined, was terrified of us. She came from a world of government conspiracies, cults, etc. In fact she had grown up in a cult, and had escaped it as a teenager, where there was rampant sexual abuse and the likes. This became her world view. She joined us though because in spite of all of that fear, something in her knew that it was going to be okay. Ironically, after finally being with us for almost two years she was overcome by the powerful realization that we were not some dangerous cult, that there is no reason to live in a world of fear and conspiracies, and that she was, in fact, safe now. This feeling of safeness was so foreign to her that it made her crack mentally. I had pages and pages of emails from her during this time, and worked hard to get her through it, but in the end she told me that she had just spent too long believing that spiritual teachers were bad people, that cults were out to get her, that the government was following her everywhere, etc, and it was now the only way she knew how to live. So she went back to it. That was very sad for me, because I spent countless countless hours trying to help her through it, and she had a beautiful heart, but in the end fear can be a powerful habit.

But in the end you can't always have success. The same thing does not work for everyone. Also, people have a very hard time changing for the better. We do not realize that if something offends us, affronts us, confuses us, scares us, etc, it might be because we have something to learn. I was with one of my Sifus once when one of his students got very angry with him. She was confused and scared, and it turned into anger, because he said something which went in the face of some personal beliefs she had. He encouraged her, told her to shout, got her worked up, and when she got it all out in a flash it suddenly was totally quiet again. He then calmly said "Very good. If you ever find yourself agreeing with your teacher all the time, never confused, never wounded, flee quickly and find a new teacher. The one you have can teach you nothing." Though it was not directed at me personally, I learned a tremendous amount from that one experience, and it has given me the strength to endure the hardships that my students sometimes go through. The meaning is that if you are always agreeing with your teacher, it means that he has not said anything which challenges your opinions, and since by nature your opinions can not possibly all be right, it means that either you are both sharing in the same errors, or the teacher does not have enough truth to bring you to the next level of truth. On the other hand, if you have wrong opinions about things, then the truths of the teacher will challenge them, and you will have crises of doubt, confusion, anger, etc. I argue with my teachers all the time! Even when they're not around, I argue in my head. But I also still bow to them in thanks.
Title: Re: Mystery schools
Post by: Koujiryuu on June 22, 2013, 09:25:51 PM
This has been overwhelmingly informative. Thank you. I now feel quite a bit more confident in where the lineage comes from. Ultimately, I will still have to do a lot of introspection and contemplation on my own before continuing, to deal with my ideas and preconceptions about the cult issue. It is great to know that a lot of what you teach comes from Sufiism, and is linked to the Platonic lineage through that.

Quote
I've had several Sifus from different tongs, Longmen, Tien Shi, Quanzhen, and Shang Ching schools who have taught me a great deal. The latter was especially hard to acquire as a westerner. I've been initiated into the first four levels of the Mo Pai also, but turned down the opportunity to proceed because the fourth technique is absurd, unnatural, and sacrifices spiritual attainment for physical powers. Still, I sometimes teach the first three to people very serious about their martial arts.

VERY interesting. How exactly did you come in contact with the Daoist sects? How do their practices relate and compare to Theurgy? I would be intensely interested in learning about any of that eventually.

Of course, my own Qigong that I teach here is primarily basic exercises learned from books, theory and publicly available material. It is simple and it works for me and as far as I know it's authentic. It works for other people too. Sometimes, the most basic techniques have the potential to be the most advanced techniques as well, as with the Microcosmic Orbit. Another poster here, mystic, is a student of the Longmen Pai. I know that I don't know everything, and to some extent there is a hard limit on what I can learn and achieve with my basic Qigong from books and study. Unfortunately, there are no Daoist teachers in my area.
Title: Re: Mystery schools
Post by: Merkat on June 22, 2013, 09:37:20 PM
 :cool:Well, I have thought about this since the topic first came up.  I can only go by what I experienced in my winding adventures and misadventures on this always challenging path.  The Servants of Light offer a wonderful course but you do have to do your work...no lolly-gagging will be tolerated but the results are most worthwhile.  I do have doubts about a person being too young and trying to go into this field before they are ready.  I had to work really hard to be able to meet the criteria for acceptance and had a couple hundred books I had read before I dared to send in my application...but the Occult had always been a major interest for me and I read constantly, anywhere between 25-30 books per week of which 20% were on metaphysical subjects.

I think things are easier now for beginners but it was not that way when I started off.  Anything out of the 'norm' attracted all sorts of threats...I was going to hell, I was insane...all those loving  :rolleyes: emotions from the sweet little people who feared and hated what they did not understand.  Each day that passes finds me looking for the magic in life and I am never disappointed or bored by what that day brings me. :biggrin: :biggrin:.

Each person has to find their own way and mine has resulted in working on my own but as long as I have Bardon, I will never be alone.  The man was a good and decent human being, a person truly worthy of respect.  If a person is looking for a school I would say to ask questions and never  forget to listen to your inner judge...if it doesn't feel right, run for the hills

Good luck and have most grand and glorious journey.

Blessings to all.
Merkat. :cool:
Title: Re: Mystery schools
Post by: jayfk on June 22, 2013, 09:52:42 PM
Very informative, and I do agree with you while I have not taught to large groups of people I do consider myself a spiritual teacher when the need arises. If you are not pushing your student to do those things he or she is not reaching their full potential. I have had those who have sought me out for spiritual advice and teaching and sometimes they just aren't ready to make a real effort, some leave as quickly as they find me. Once I have had turned away a student because she was just seeking "power".

Who knows maybe i'll take the first level of classes from the school when a opening occurs it looks like its free for the introductory classes. I like seeing different perspectives and learning how they relate to how I do things. I kind of feel like i've lost touch with my spiritual side lately and need to re-balance my life I haven't even meditated in the last couple of years because I know to many alternative methods. I can't even remember the last time I've communicated to my higher self. Its easy to take our gifts for granted when there is no longer real purpose behind them.

Thank you for sharing Prophecy and while your methods may not be liked by every student it sounds like your doing a awesome job.
Title: Re: Mystery schools
Post by: Prophecy on June 22, 2013, 10:11:21 PM
Koujiryu: I would imagine that there are probably several people here undergoing the Longmen training, it is one of the more popular branches in the west. Its mother-school, Quanzhen, is the most widely practiced branch in the world, and the Chinese Department of Tourism keeps it very open to westerners. The downside of this is that many of the Taoist sects have withdrawn their teachings from the temples and retreated into family lineages, so that the temple teaches the government-approved Taoism, but you have to get through the temple and to the families to learn the more developed techniques. Wang Liping's branch of Emei Taoism from the Longmen has also become fairly popular in the West, and most "gwailo" western students of the Longmen come from either him or Jerry Alan, since they are the two most wellknown authors. I don't recognize Sifu Wang's particular brand of Longmen, so I think it was from a different temple: there were three mother centers for the tradition.

The truth is that most of the highest techniques in these schools are just variations of the microcosmic orbit. Some just have subtle differences. In my training you never consciously made the microcosmic orbit habit, which is different from other approaches. You just watched it quietly, usually for an hour after doing a standard meditation, to see if the river vehicle was moving yet. Then one day it picks up and moves on its own, very slowly, and you observe it. Every school does it a little differently.
Title: Re: Mystery schools
Post by: Impervious on June 22, 2013, 10:17:00 PM
Thank you Prophecy. It is always a pleasure when you post here.  :)

Hearing you explain your lineage a bit more does do a lot to dispel my fears, but I won't pretend that it dispelled all of them. I still have personal concerns with a number of your policies, but I realize that I cannot make you change them. Nor should I, for it is your school, and not mine.

In case my earlier post seemed disrespectful, I do want to say that I respect you and Veos a lot, in spite of my doubts and concerns. Like Koujiryuu, I think you guys are fantastic people, and your articles have helped me a lot.

Thanks for posting and giving us information from your perspective.
Title: Re: Mystery schools
Post by: Koujiryuu on June 22, 2013, 10:48:25 PM
Quote
The truth is that most of the highest techniques in these schools are just variations of the microcosmic orbit. Some just have subtle differences. In my training you never consciously made the microcosmic orbit habit, which is different from other approaches. You just watched it quietly, usually for an hour after doing a standard meditation, to see if the river vehicle was moving yet. Then one day it picks up and moves on its own, very slowly, and you observe it. Every school does it a little differently.

I've done this method too, but after practicing the "standard" orbit. In days past I would guide the Qi with my mind, all along the Governor and Conception vessel, forcibly. Now I just focus on Bai Hui when inhaling and allow the Qi to flow there naturally, along with rolling the eyes back in the head, and focus on Huiyin when exhaling, and roll the eyes down and allow the Qi to fall down the front of the body. This is the method the students in my Study Group will learn. However, after some time of practicing by guiding the Qi with the mind, I realized I could relax and I would just spontaneously notice the orbit taking place on it's own, regardless of my will. I think some systems require that you start the metaphorical wheel moving in the microcosm by leading the Qi through the vessels with the mind, and after this flow is induced initially, then the practice becomes what you described.

Btw, check my recent message to you on TDS when you get the time. I replied to the reply you sent me recently.
Title: Re: Mystery schools
Post by: icefire on June 23, 2013, 02:57:39 AM
The latter was especially hard to acquire as a westerner. I've been initiated into the first four levels of the Mo Pai also, but turned down the opportunity to proceed because the fourth technique is absurd, unnatural, and sacrifices spiritual attainment for physical powers.
Really? That would make you the highest Mo Pai in the West, right?
Title: Re: Mystery schools
Post by: Prophecy on June 23, 2013, 08:22:12 AM
No. I know of two others in the west who completed the fourth level, because they were only pursuing martial power and not spiritual awareness. I learned it but did not complete it.
Title: Re: Mystery schools
Post by: Searching on June 23, 2013, 08:44:20 AM
I just wanted to thank Prophecy for that post on lineage.


The Mo Pai bit is interesting. I never personally got interested in it, but know of a few who do.
Title: Re: Mystery schools
Post by: Dancing_Crow on June 23, 2013, 11:46:32 AM
...Sometimes, the most basic techniques have the potential to be the most advanced techniques as well...

One of my teachers explained this to me about a year ago when I was being initiated into some more advanced practices that he teaches (Isha Yoga)... He (Sadhguru Jaggi Vasu Dev) told us in Satsang that (I'm paraphrasing here) enlightenment happens in a moment. The various practices are only to make us willing. The practices break through the layers and layers of unwillingness that we have but the simplest practice (here he is referring to the simplest practice in Isha Yoga, the Shambhavi Mahamudra) if done consistently is enough. I feel this wisdom applies to not just the Shambhavi Mahamudra but the simplest practice of any path.

P.S. I just finished a meditation with this lovely Super Moon that we have and I feel called to share the following story with this thread. My source says it is attributed to Osho, an Indian Mystic, but I feel it is a story that has relevance to the conversation here.

Quote from: Osho
In Tibet, there is a beautiful story about Marpa. It may not be factual, but it is tremendously significant.

I don’t care much about facts. My emphasis is on the significance and the truth, which is a totally different thing.

Marpa heard about a master. He was searching and he went to the master, he surrendered to the master, he trusted totally. And he asked the master, “What am I supposed to do now?”

The master said, “Once you have surrendered to me, you are not supposed to do anything. Just believe in me. My name is the only secret mantra for you. Whenever you are in difficulty, just remember my name and everything will be all right.”

Marpa touched his feet. And he tried it immediately — he was such a simple man. He walked on the river. Other disciples who had been with the master for years could not believe it — he was walking on the water!

They reported to the master that, “That man, you have not understood him. He is no ordinary man, he is walking on water!”

The master said, “What?”

They all ran towards the river and Marpa was walking on the water, singing songs, dancing. When he came to the shore, the master asked, “What is the secret?”

He said, “What is the secret? It is the same secret that you have given to me — your name. I remembered you. I said, `Master, allow me to walk on water’ and it happened.”

The master could not believe that his name…. He himself could not walk on water. But perhaps… he had never tried.

But it would be better to check a few more things before he tries. So he said to Marpa, “Can you jump from that hill?”

Marpa said, “Whatever you say.” He went up on the hill and jumped, and they were all standing in the valley waiting — just pieces of Marpa will be there! Even if they can find pieces of him, that will be enough — the hill was very high.

But Marpa came down smiling, sitting in a lotus posture. He came just under a tree in the valley, and sat down. They all surrounded him. They looked at him — not even a scratch.

The master said, “This is something. You used my name?”

He said, “It was your name.”

The master said, “This is enough, now I am going to try,” and the first step in the water, he sank.

Marpa could not believe it when he sank. His disciples jumped in and somehow pulled him out. He was half dead. The water was taken out of his lungs… somehow he survived.

And Marpa said, “What is the matter?”

The master said, “You just forgive me. I am no master, I am just a pretender.”

But Marpa said, “If you are a pretender, then how did your name work?”

The pretender said, “My name has not worked. It is your trust. It does not matter who you trust — it is the trust, the love, the totality of it. I don’t trust myself. I don’t trust anybody. I cheat everybody — how can I trust? And I am always afraid to be cheated by others, because I am cheating others. Trust is impossible for me. You are an innocent man, you trusted me. It is because of your trust that the miracles have happened.”

Whether the story is true or not does not matter.

One thing is certain, that your misery is caused by your mistakes and your bliss is caused by your trust, by your love.

Title: Re: Mystery schools
Post by: orpheusjung on June 24, 2013, 12:33:43 PM

Quote from: Prophecy
...do not want to be openly associated with magic, which still has a massive stigma in most parts of the world...

Do you feel that this stigma will ever be overcome?
Title: Re: Mystery schools
Post by: Feint on June 24, 2013, 09:35:17 PM
Hello Prophecy. I am currently waiting for your next class. Based on those experiences from people, I am even more excited to join in that. When are you guys hosting the next probationer class?
Title: Re: Mystery schools
Post by: Akenu on June 25, 2013, 12:50:56 AM
Prophecy: Well, two questions.
Firstly, you are talking about sufi origins + your school seems to go for hermetic looks. In my country, if you want to found or re-found hermetic order/school/whatever, you need an approval from authority of the order, eg in case of martinist order you need an approval from grandmaster. So, the first question is, does your school have this kind of approval and can it be publicly accessible as it is usually required by hermetic orders?

Secondly: Why is help/aid requested by people accepted/rejected based on the membership in the school and why people that previously requested help that was rejected and then tried to enter your school, were rejected from the school, as well?
Title: Re: Mystery schools
Post by: bismuth on June 26, 2013, 07:28:12 AM
Prophecy, thank you kindly for your explanations about your connections with the lineages.
While I understand that you think it may not be important for you to explain this in detail, because the results of your teachings speak for themselves, others who are not a part of your school really have no way of knowing the results of your teachings other than the few posts here by some of your students. I appreciate you going into detail about this and it has helped me with my decision. I am not sure how the long-distance training will work but I would like to give it a chance, so I will be applying for your school as soon as applications are accepted again. I highly respect all that you have accomplished through the years and I look forward to your teachings.

Koujiryuu, my apologies for the confusion. I actually did not lump you in with TDS though the wording may have been confusing as I was writing a lot and may not have been very clear on that point. I meant that the posts here on Veritas are the real deal, and that I've seen no elitism here on Veritas from the teachers of TDS.
I am having a difficult time understanding why you are against tradition ("dressing up"), based on my own experiences, but I respect that you are doing things your own way. All of the masters that I have crossed paths with in this life have stuck strongly with the traditions of their lineages and I have seen and experienced the importance and power behind this tradition. If they have a specific robe or a bell on their hat, it's for a reason. Additionally, it is considered offensive to my shifu if I do not wear my robe while practicing his teachings. Trusting your teacher(s) is trusting their tradition. It is for these reasons that I will follow their traditions.

Thank you all for your posts on this discussion.
Be well.
Title: Re: Mystery schools
Post by: Koujiryuu on June 27, 2013, 07:39:01 PM
Quote
Koujiryuu, my apologies for the confusion. I actually did not lump you in with TDS though the wording may have been confusing as I was writing a lot and may not have been very clear on that point. I meant that the posts here on Veritas are the real deal, and that I've seen no elitism here on Veritas from the teachers of TDS.

I think it was just the wording, yeah. It is true that I strive not to be elitist or separate myself from my students by my attitude. I try my hardest to see everyone else as my equal, or better than me in some way, because I believe it keeps me humble.

Quote
I am having a difficult time understanding why you are against tradition ("dressing up"), based on my own experiences, but I respect that you are doing things your own way. All of the masters that I have crossed paths with in this life have stuck strongly with the traditions of their lineages and I have seen and experienced the importance and power behind this tradition. If they have a specific robe or a bell on their hat, it's for a reason. Additionally, it is considered offensive to my shifu if I do not wear my robe while practicing his teachings. Trusting your teacher(s) is trusting their tradition. It is for these reasons that I will follow their traditions.

When I took martial arts classes when I was younger I had to wear a Gi, and I did it out of respect, but I honestly hated it. It seemed silly to me. It was also impractical and physically restrictive.

I'm a normal guy and if you looked at me that's what you would see. I wear normal clothes around my house and I blend in in society. Even when meditating or doing spiritual work I wear normal clothes.

I personally dislike dressing up per tradition because I feel it alienates you from your students and makes you stand out. It emphasizes authority and makes one self-important. I have heard numerous stories about Daoist masters in the mountains of China, Yogis in the Himalayas, and even renown Japanese swordsmen like Miyamoto Musashi, and in all of them they appeared to be wearing the clothes of a peasant. Dirty and unkempt. Lowly and humble. Even Jesus was said to wear the clothes of a peasant. As long as you are covered it doesn't matter what you're wearing, and when in Rome, do as the Romans do. I see no reason to wear priestly robes.

I am not a ritual mage and I belong to no orders, so wearing these things for the purpose of ritual has no meaning to me, because ritual has no meaning to me.

I understand why they do it but I don't think it's necessary, and again, I think a large part of it is projecting a social image of authority or importance, which I disagree with. True spiritual teaching can take place regardless of the clothes you wear.
Title: Re: Mystery schools
Post by: Steve on June 27, 2013, 08:17:17 PM
Quote
I have heard numerous stories about Daoist masters in the mountains of China, Yogis in the Himalayas, and even renown Japanese swordsmen like Miyamoto Musashi, and in all of them they appeared to be wearing the clothes of a peasant. Dirty and unkempt. Lowly and humble. Even Jesus was said to wear the clothes of a peasant.
Have you met any of these stories?

You don't have to dress up if you don't want to, but for those who do want to, why not let them? It is a personal choice, or it is the choice of the master so long as the student wishes to continue learning from that master. As you said, it doesn't matter, so why not dress up in such a simple little thing?

In my vote, I'm all for the lack of clothes entirely if people are willing to accept that. Just as I am for the lack of speech entirely, if people were able to manage that ^_^

~Steve
Title: Re: Mystery schools
Post by: Koujiryuu on June 27, 2013, 08:37:46 PM
Quote
I have heard numerous stories about Daoist masters in the mountains of China, Yogis in the Himalayas, and even renown Japanese swordsmen like Miyamoto Musashi, and in all of them they appeared to be wearing the clothes of a peasant. Dirty and unkempt. Lowly and humble. Even Jesus was said to wear the clothes of a peasant.
Have you met any of these stories?

You don't have to dress up if you don't want to, but for those who do want to, why not let them? It is a personal choice, or it is the choice of the master so long as the student wishes to continue learning from that master. As you said, it doesn't matter, so why not dress up in such a simple little thing?

In my vote, I'm all for the lack of clothes entirely if people are willing to accept that. Just as I am for the lack of speech entirely, if people were able to manage that ^_^

~Steve

I may not have met any of those stories, but that's besides the point.

I never said people can't do it. People do it and will continue to. It's not like I'm saying it shouldn't be done, or TDS must stop doing it.

I merely gave my opinion on why I disagree with it and find it weird. It is not something I'm comfortable with, regardless of who is doing it.
Title: Re: Mystery schools
Post by: Koujiryuu on June 27, 2013, 09:31:06 PM
Great info Rayn, and I'm not ignorant of this mentality concerning orders or the reasons why it's done.

That is definitely a positive aspect to it, but I think there are a few negative aspects too, which I presented.
Title: Re: Mystery schools
Post by: Jesse9209 on July 04, 2013, 09:08:16 AM
To respond to the original post,

I have been a student of Prophecy's (also known as Ramose) for just over four years now. Within 6 months of his tutelage I achieved more than I had with two years of daily practice of IIH. Earlier on Koujiryuu posted about the limitations of energetic transmissions. I was just at a gathering this past weekend with Prophecy, the energies that they gave through the transmissions have helped me with the flow of energy in my body, reducing a tension in my head that i've had for years allowing energy to move properly in my body and thus attain deeper meditation. Effects like this are quite common due to the spiritual work they do on students when they visit. When I asked about my spiritual practices he looked at me and knew how successful I was with performing my exercises. A friend of mine was given specific advice on how she was performing one exercise in a way that could be improved on, while giving her specific advice on how to fix it. While Prophecy and Veos are not all knowing they do have clairvoyance that is used practically to aid their students in perfecting their spiritual practices. It can be confusing to some students who are not used to being around clairvoyants which has lead to some, especially younger students who thing that the Hierophants are nearly omniscient. Though that seems to not be an issue with most of the senior students who know that they have vast knowledge, incredible intuition, and developed astral senses, yet are not all knowing all the same.

The system has developed in a way that a huge percentage of the active students are very driven and motivated to achieve the things they seek. There are no other places I know of in terms of online forums where it is a common thing (or at least not uncommon) to see people practicing 3-4 hours a day and experiencing magical and spiritual phenomenon in their life on such a regular basis. It takes a lot of structure and discipline to create a school so focused on results and not just theory. Without structure it is practically impossible to have such success in so many students, that being said it is still completely up to the student how much they want to practice. I have made many great friends in the school due to the intensity that many of the students pursue Theurgy being a common factor.

The last thing I wanted to discuss is that the practices of the school always blow me away when I learn something new. I have practiced a huge amount of qigong techniques, psionics, IIH, and techniques from numerous other magical systems. Yet the practices I learn from Prophecy build upon each other in ways i've never experienced before and lead to very powerful results.

I have found TDS incredibly helpful to me in seeking God and my study of magic. Without the school I would be nowhere near where I am today, I likely would have seriously hurt myself with the imbalanced practices I was doing before. If there is anyone interested in tds who wants to talk to a student who has been around for a few years you are welcome to message me. I will check in on Veritas a bit more often just in case.
Title: Re: Mystery schools
Post by: akuigla on July 28, 2013, 04:47:46 AM
 I will give here few experiences while searching for mystery school.
It is not my intention to belittle any teachings,schools or individuals,but to present my point of view in regard to Spiritual and /or mystery school.
Before that,I joined Qigong class here on Veritas.
Kouji is the Teacher with good reputation,and I decided to see what is in the class.
In the start,we are all asked multiple questions.
I didn't like some questions.It is my belief that teachings like qigong should't start with curiosity about other students,but rather focus on teachings,and let students talk about self when they want to.
Then teachings.
It was uncomfortably to read lectures,cos they were just quote/paste,grey letters on a grey surface,exactly from last year qigong course.No effort was made to present lectures in a new,fresh way.
I didn't continue the course,for the same reason I didn't last year.Same quoted/pasted lectures-gray letters on a grey surface like all quoted posts.
Later,I was contacted by kobok about my experiences and satisfaction with qigong course.I didn't respond cos I thought Kouji deserves time to correct mistakes in teaching qigong.How many students complete qigong course,I dont know.
before that,last year, I decided to see what is in The Order Of Hollow Ones.Few days after I made consultation with mr.Black, and gave my real data,an very unpleasant spiritual experience occurred.Specifically,an dark entity entered my room with no friendly intentions.Luckily for me,I am no greenhorn in a spiritual warfare..
Later Akenu explained to me few details,and I am thankful for that.But still,my doubts remain.
Then I made few other attempts to advance spiritually.
To make long story short,I was disappointed with all of them.
Then I applied to TDS last year.
I was accepted,and I feel good to be part of the school.
Being inside the school on a daily basis,for more than a year,I can testify that school is real one.
We, the students,are not perfect,and we are not pretending to be.Our teachers too.We are taught an noble tradition above all,and to be respectful  and be courteous to all.
Summa summarum:
Bad experiences from many different schools and teachings led me to TDS.
It is possible that TDS is not the best school out there.
But surely beats all other schools and teachings I encountered!




Title: Re: Mystery schools
Post by: icefire on July 28, 2013, 09:21:50 AM
It's common for teachers, even great teachers, to reuse the same material they've put together before. Did you give any feedback on it last year besides how it looked like to you? It's kind of hard to take your criticism seriously because you put zero effort into Kouji's course.
Title: Re: Mystery schools
Post by: akuigla on July 28, 2013, 10:38:26 AM
I did not criticize Kouji's way of teachings,just that it wasn't suitable for me.And read the start of my previous post.
Besides that,I am practicing 8 precious exercises for more than 20 years,as part of wu-shu,and Standing on stake,as qigong-so my knowledge in qigong is about  average.
In my opinion,any teacher who pretend to be a great teacher should never criticize others,but make all efforts to make own teachings close to perfection.
As great Teacher once said:
"How can you say to your brother, ‘Brother, let me take the speck out of your eye,’ when you yourself fail to see the plank in your own eye? You hypocrite, first take the plank out of your eye, and then you will see clearly to remove the speck from your brother’s eye."-Holy Bible,Luke,6:42
Therefore,Kouji's only mistake was in criticizing TDS,when he should correct own mistakes.
Of course,if his qigong course was completed by many students,than I am wrong and I apologize.
Title: Re: Mystery schools
Post by: Iatros on July 29, 2013, 03:03:08 PM
Akuigla; I would, for the record and as another student of TDS, like to disagree that there was any problem with Kouji's criticism. Criticism is incredibly valuable if it can be learned from, and TDS must, like every other group with any aim at all, take the opinions of non-members and especially ex-members into account in order to be more accessible to potential students and, much more importantly, reduce the incidence of unnecessary misconceptions as much as possible so that the school is not falsely represented. You yourself have seen the various debates and changes that have taken place within the school over time so I am sure that you can see this for yourself.

On another note, and as a fellow student you should know I intend no disrespect, you have criticized Kouji's class just as Kouji criticized TDS. Everyone's eyes are filled with splinters and planks, as are mine as well. The redeeming element is that most here are aware of their imperfections and are working to correct them.

So, I do not mean to be accusatory, but merely observant. I simply wanted to help keep this discussion constructive. I have little else to add. Be well, everyone.
Title: Re: Mystery schools
Post by: Akenu on July 29, 2013, 11:28:46 PM
I will give here few experiences while searching for mystery school.
It is not my intention to belittle any teachings,schools or individuals,but to present my point of view in regard to Spiritual and /or mystery school.
Before that,I joined Qigong class here on Veritas.
Kouji is the Teacher with good reputation,and I decided to see what is in the class.
In the start,we are all asked multiple questions.
I didn't like some questions.It is my belief that teachings like qigong should't start with curiosity about other students,but rather focus on teachings,and let students talk about self when they want to.
Then teachings.
It was uncomfortably to read lectures,cos they were just quote/paste,grey letters on a grey surface,exactly from last year qigong course.No effort was made to present lectures in a new,fresh way.
I didn't continue the course,for the same reason I didn't last year.Same quoted/pasted lectures-gray letters on a grey surface like all quoted posts.

Well, I don't see a problem in that.
You know, only reason why TDS lectures are not "copy/pastah" is that they are retrieved from the database and "revealed" one by one each week, this is certainly done automatically, else it would be a waste of time to manually make article accessible for the user and also create a discussion forum for that and open chat, as well.

Kouji could also copy/paste the lessons and you wouldn't find out there were already used, but thanks to the quotation you can go through the past year and check older entries/experiences, as well. That's not so bad, right?
Title: Re: Mystery schools
Post by: akuigla on July 31, 2013, 12:13:45 PM
Well, I don't see a problem in that.
You know, only reason why TDS lectures are not "copy/pastah" is that they are retrieved from the database and "revealed" one by one each week, this is certainly done automatically, else it would be a waste of time to manually make article accessible for the user and also create a discussion forum for that and open chat, as well.

Kouji could also copy/paste the lessons and you wouldn't find out there were already used, but thanks to the quotation you can go through the past year and check older entries/experiences, as well. That's not so bad, right?


Of course,If you take qigong course by Kouji,I will not see problem in that.
Title: Re: Mystery schools
Post by: darkstorm1 on August 20, 2013, 02:51:31 AM
This has been overwhelmingly informative. Thank you. I now feel quite a bit more confident in where the lineage comes from. . . . It is great to know that a lot of what you teach comes from Sufiism, and is linked to the Platonic lineage through that.

I couldn't help but think, after reading this, about the many times in the "Harry Potter" series when Hermione asks Ron and Harry, "Aren't you ever going to read 'Hogwarts, A History'?" (to my knowledge, Harry and Ron never read it).

The TDS version of "Hogwarts, A History" is called "A History of Our Tradition," and it goes into detail about the link between the Greek mystery traditions and the mystical systems of the Near East. It's available in PDF on the TDS website.

I was around when the man from the head instructors' brother lineage visited, so I can attest to that. Ultimately, however, I think you just have to have a little faith. I'm sure the same goes for any tradition. If you're interested in magic and/or mysticism (meditation), and you want to change your life for the better, then it may be worth your time to check out TDS
Title: Re: Mystery schools
Post by: trismegistos on August 20, 2013, 09:47:42 PM
The thing I've experienced with TDS is that your initial faith is rewarded and at times objectively reinforced as you progress through the school.
Title: Re: Mystery schools
Post by: taaraka on August 22, 2013, 12:09:48 PM


I have been a member of AMORC for seven years and was involved with the establishment of the TDS ending any contact in early 2011 and wish them all well. There are many personal reasons for this which I will not go into here. But generally agree with Kouiji's summery.

First, a person is not physically able to experience great enlightenment until about age 33, the body is just not ready. Also, psychologically it would be too traumatic, not being able to adjust to the real experience of what occurs in the enlightenment process, true initiation.

Most start this process of enlightenment in the mid to late thirties if it is going to occur in that life, and it goes on for years. It takes time to adjust, even for the best, and the best need help in many forms to go through it safety when a certain point is reached.

In short, the more enlightened a human becomes the more "special" they know they are not. It is just a the process of becoming their natural state of being.

That being said, I found the AMORC teachings and attunements to be genuine and will remain a member the entirety of this life.

My hope is all will find what they need to achieve the goals they seek. There are many paths to the same place in the end, we just need to let our hearts find it...

Peace
Title: Re: Mystery schools
Post by: Steve on August 22, 2013, 04:53:06 PM
Can I ask, Taaraka, what you consider to be some of the objective criteria to mark "great enlightenment" such that it requires the physical body to be capable of being ready for it, especially at such a specific age?

Or, if not "great" enlightenment, then regular enlightenment would do as well. It seems to be a term that is more often used without establishing what it is supposed to actually mean, than is used with any real meaning, and so I am naturally curious as to how you might establish such a historically vague concept in yourself or another.

I ask this because if one of the criteria is merely knowing how special one is not, then I've *known* that, through experience and internal realization, since I was younger than 20 years old. (And I am still only 31 years old, two years younger than your minimum age :))

~Steve

err, editted to remove a portion of the post that somehow doubled up at the end of the post.
Title: Re: Mystery schools
Post by: taaraka on August 23, 2013, 10:40:45 AM
Hi Steve, Just want you to know I am working on a response to your questions.  :)
Title: Re: Mystery schools
Post by: Henosis on August 23, 2013, 11:55:17 PM
Nowhere in history has there ever been a tradition that sets an age for "enlightenment".
One important aspect about the number 33 is the fact that it represents the number of vertebrae in the spine. The release of Cosmic Energy (Shekinah, Kundalini, Sophic Fire, call it what you may) culminates in its ascension through the spine.
Enlightenment per se is more like a homecoming rather than an achievement, hence the term 'self-realization'; a realization of that which already is, The only game that we are playing is that which belongs to human perception and our false identifications with psychological rather than existential realities.
Knowing that one is not special is the destruction of all sense of separateness with the whole of Kosmos; an event which can only be realized once the energy has reached Sahasrara. "Not special" because to one who has attained there is neither me nor you, only the One Eternal Life.
Another noteworthy Biblical allegory is the release of Christos who is always crucified by man's terrestrial passions at the age of 33.

The body, mind, and emotions indeed have to be ready for such an implosion into cosmic consciousness.
However there are many past masters who have already attained at a relatively young age. One of which is Ramana Maharishi whose fire was ignited by a single reading of a sacred passage at the age of 16.   
In the Orient Balayogis or childsaints sometimes attain Samadhi at the very tender age of just 11 or 12 years old.

The ultimate enlightenment for someone who is in Yoga (union) is a conscious exit (mahasamadhi). In fact, it is rather difficult to remain in the body after such an event.
Title: Re: Mystery schools
Post by: Theopholis on August 24, 2013, 01:59:21 PM
Nowhere in history has there ever been a tradition that sets an age for "enlightenment".

Well that's just not true. Taaraka clearly follows a tradition that does. I'm sure there have been many other traditions that have as well. History's big, so don't go making statements that you can't back up.

I doubt that there is a precise age before which enlightenment cannot be obtained, however I am inclined to believe that it requires a certain amount of experience and maturity. Much like adulthood, some people might grow into it early, some later, and some might never mature enough to be truly called adults.
Title: Re: Mystery schools
Post by: Searching on August 25, 2013, 07:07:13 AM
I was always under the impression that in Judaism one could not study the Kabbalah until one was older (30's? 40's? at least had kids?) This was to ensure you were mature, responsible, and had a greater perspective.

Of course, I do believe there were exceptions. I do believe Jesus was pretty advanced from a young age so could take on that stuff responsibly (or maybe already knew it? Guess it depends on the version of Jesus you believe).

But to my knowledge, Jewish leaders didn't really like that, but that's a whole other can of worms...
Title: Re: Mystery schools
Post by: Akenu on August 26, 2013, 02:26:42 AM
@Henosis: Martinists I have met so far recommended to start with practice not sooner than being 19 years old, and yes, 33 years also seems to be a magickal number.
And regarding this:
Quote
Nowhere in history has there ever been a tradition that sets an age for "enlightenment".
Mr Omniscient Being, please keep your guesses for yourself.

@Searching: Yes, that's right, 40 is usually recommended. I think this is more a maturity thing, one should already has a strong hold of his own life in the society instead of living in a basement and playing games 24/7.
Title: Re: Mystery schools
Post by: Mind_Bender on August 26, 2013, 12:54:05 PM
I'm not part, nor have ever been part of an order, but in martial arts, at least in our school, a first level black belt was never given before the age of 16 for reasons of physical maturity. You would not get your next rank until at least 18, and the age rises per degree, so you cannot attain master level until 5th degree or higjer (sometimes starting at 7th) so you would be no younger than 30 years old. Buddha (Ta Mo, Boddhidharma) didn't reach enlightenment until 36, the Daoists say don't join a monastic life until you have had a full life- usually around 30. 33 is the highest degree in Freemasonry and other organizations. 3+3=6, related number to the planet Venus associated with Lucifer- self-illumination, who is not suggested to be evil by certain traditions, but the true beacon of inner divine wisdom and divine light.

Certain paychologists suggest we are not fully mature until around 27-30, a second internal initiation (out of three or four 'crisis'. Birth an baptism don't count)- the first around adolescense when we discover the outside world more fully, teenage years when we know everything- and want to hump most of it- adult years when we really begin to become who want and need to be, elder adult years when we must discover ourselves again (mid-life crisis- around 50-60 years old), and there might be one more, I don't know. I can't say this principle is set in stone, but it seems fairly accurate.

It seems 'magical initiation' is not much more than biological transformation, which enhances your brain as well (with a healthy life style), with a few tricks and treats added in for good measure and continued evolution.
Title: Re: Mystery schools
Post by: Theopholis on August 26, 2013, 01:38:35 PM
@Mind_Bender
Good post! I think there's a lot of information in there that would be helpful to new practitioners, and just everyone in general. You should consider expanding it and turning it into an article.
Title: Re: Mystery schools
Post by: Mind_Bender on August 26, 2013, 06:07:02 PM
Thank you, Theopholis, I will consider it.
Title: Re: Mystery schools
Post by: onemanlived on September 21, 2013, 07:38:25 PM
I was bored and suddenly decided to take a look at this site because I haven't visited it in a long time and I decided to check out this post and saw some people giving some opinions on certain Mystery Schools and I just wanted to share my experience to help others in their search. I never usually post anything on forums, not even in the class forum of the school that I belong to, but I couldn't help it this time. I first stumbled upon the Veritas forum by accident when I was trying to locate the website for the University that I was attending at the time also named Veritas. I quickly realized that I was at the wrong website but curiosity got the best of me and I decided to read some posts.

Many years ago when I was very young (15 years old) I wanted to learn magic. I set out to search for a teacher. After meeting with many different Magicians and Spiritual Gurus, I never took one on as a teacher because I would quickly realize that none were the real deal. They usually turned out to be fake. I searched for several years and could never find a true Master. In the search I checked out many books, but also realized that the books usually had incomplete or insufficient information for what I wanted to achieve. I then set out to learn to astral project, because I thought that it would be the only way that I could find my teacher. After many years of trying to astral project to find my teacher in the astral planes, I never succeeded in leaving my body. I therefore gave up the search and told myself that when the time comes that I will find my Teacher.

Many years later I stumbled upon the Veritas forum by accident and found a post by Veos in which he was responding to someones question. From just reading that post I realized that he was the teacher that I was looking for all these years. I quickly searched for his info and found that he was located in Florida. At the time I was living in Costa Rica but I was originally born and raised in Florida. I told myself that I have to sell everything and go back to Florida ASAP. I told my wife that I wanted to move back because I missed my family and wanted a change, but never told her the main motivating reason. After several months I was able to sell the business I owned and my belongings and returned to Florida. The following day after returning to Florida I checked the TDS website and saw that they were going to start teaching some students and that registration was going to start soon. I signed up and after a few months I was accepted into the school and started.

When I started to read the TDS teachings I would quickly realize each time that I read a new lesson that I had already known this, but that it was forgotten. When I did the meditations for the first time I was blown away. I was a person that had never meditated up to that point and never really sought out to learn any occult info from books because I always knew that I had to wait for my true teacher. After graduating from the probationer class, I really wanted to meet the teachers of The Divine Science. Deep down I was really afraid that I was going to be let down since I have always been let down when I met a so called master, but I thought to myself, what the hell, even if they are not what I expect them to be, the teachings are real and effective, so I'll go and meet them. When I went for the first time I immediately realized that they were real. I have never in my life met anyone with as much wisdom or knowledge than Ramose or Veos. When I was told how young they were I was even more amazed. I will never forget the first time that I met Ramose. Since I have been a student of The Divine Science my life has completely changed. I am not the same person that I was before being a student of TDS. The meditations are extremely powerful and the more you practice them the more powerful they get. The transmissions are also real and extremely powerful. The truth is that you don't really have to meet the teachers in person to advance, but it does surely help speed things up big time and you also learn alot more and get to see and experience alot of things that you normally couldn't get if you didn't.

I am not going to go to much into detail, but after about 4 or 5 months after practicing the meditations on a daily basis I attained what I could call my first magical power or ability. When I attained my first magical ability, that is when all doubts were gone about the effectiveness of the practices that are taught. I have since being a student of TDS had many truly Divine and Magical experiences. One magical ability that I have also attained is that I can now feel energy. This may not be something that some people might call amazing or magical but for me it is. It is a useful ability for me because when I do my meditations and practices I can physically feel the energy that they each generate and so I can gauge how well that days practice went from the energy that was generated. I am not saying that everyone will attain any magical abilities as quick as myself but I have no doubt that everyone eventually will as long as they put in the work. I have now been a student of TDS for almost 3 years and it's the best thing in my life and can never imagine not being a student of TDS. I would also like to share that my wife after seeing the changes in me after about 4 months of being a student, also wanted to be a student, and the following probationer class she joined. My wife had zero occult knowledge when she joined and since then has also gone through and experienced many extraordinary things since being a student. I cant recommend TDS enough.  I am truly blessed to have found them.

P.S. I just want to be clear and share that I am 33 years old and am married. I share this so that no one thinks that I am a young naive teenager. I apologize if my spelling or grammar is off, but I am writing this in a big rush.

P.P.S There is a very young man way under the age of 33 by the name of Dharma Sangha aka Buddha Boy who is followed by many thousands of people of all ages around the world who is proclaimed to be enlightened by many high ranking monks and spiritual people. I am sure that to be able to accomplish the feats that he has, he has got to be enlightened.
Good luck and blessings to everyone.

J.C.
Title: Re: Mystery schools
Post by: Shamati on October 30, 2013, 08:25:48 AM
I'm going to be initiated into the Ordo Templi Orientis within the coming month. The Divine Science looks interesting but I live in Sweden & feel I'd like to be able to meet in person other people who study & practice the Great Work.
I've been completely cut off from spirituality my entire life as I grew up in a very secularized society & family. Of course the question of human existence has always remained beneath the surface & at times made life sad when all "answers" seem materialistic & therefor unsatisfying.
When I was 26 years old I went a turbulent period in life in which all things I've took for granted was put in to question because I was forced to as I lost everything.

Anyway, during this period I was beginning to experimenting with meditation & eventually kundalini yoga which led to the kundalini force being released / raised withing me & when it reached my brain & the top of my head it caused what I'd call an "Enlightenment experience". A feeling of non-duality at the same time as energy was flowing out of my head in to the skies making me feel "connected" of sorts. For months after this first experience I was shaking & noticed an extreme polarity between joy/sadness etc. I honestly felt I would never be able to feel satisfied with the regular toil of daily life again or didnt even know if I'd be able to as I was very sensitive to percieved energy etc.
I have had continued "Enlightenment experiences" for a total of 4 times, but now it has passed more time since the last of these experiences than passed between the other 4 & I felt I've lost some of the initial enthusiasm & will to proceed..

It was during this time that I got into hermeticism as I followed the trail of kundalini wherever it took me & now I'm waiting to be initiated into the O.T.O.
I'm studying from the Initiation Into Hermetics, Aleister Crowley's Book 4 & I hope I will be able to reach a feeling of equillibrium again..

I will continue to post on this forum as my journey continues
Title: Re: Mystery schools
Post by: Shankara on January 08, 2014, 11:14:07 AM
Enrollment for the TDS Probationer class is now open:

thedivinescience.org/ (http://thedivinescience.org/)

BTW, I know of at least one TDS student that lives in Sweden.  He actually came to study at the TDS temple in Florida for a few months this past year.
Title: Re: Mystery schools
Post by: Akenu on March 17, 2014, 09:28:46 AM
I have just noticed that TDS site was suspended... What the hell? Does anyone have any news about this?
Title: Re: Mystery schools
Post by: Feint on March 17, 2014, 11:00:48 AM
Seems like they forgot to auto renew. Looks expired.
Title: Re: Mystery schools
Post by: Constructman on March 17, 2014, 04:19:02 PM
The site's back up; looked like the webmaster got to it.
Title: Re: Mystery schools
Post by: Akenu on March 18, 2014, 06:44:07 AM
Good, but I would still expect some sort of an excuse on their site for that.
Title: Re: Mystery schools
Post by: Perimede on April 30, 2014, 07:40:38 AM
I can't seem to open The Divine School's website this morning.   I check almost every morning, waiting for the new classes to be announced.  Today, I get a message 'Internal Error'.  Also, I wrote to the email that's given over a month ago for information, but never received a reply.  I understand that, I get busy too, but in combination with the broken website, it just feels a little odd.
Title: Re: Mystery schools
Post by: Akenu on April 30, 2014, 08:10:22 AM
Hey Perimede, the site looks fine for me now :).
Title: Re: Mystery schools
Post by: Meroe on April 30, 2014, 04:49:13 PM
I can't seem to open The Divine School's website this morning.   I check almost every morning, waiting for the new classes to be announced.  Today, I get a message 'Internal Error'.  Also, I wrote to the email that's given over a month ago for information, but never received a reply.  I understand that, I get busy too, but in combination with the broken website, it just feels a little odd.

unfortunately, its going to be a number of months before the next class good sir. this is the year of silence, in which no new students are admitted for just about the span of a year.
Title: Re: Mystery schools
Post by: Perimede on May 01, 2014, 07:54:12 AM
It must be a browser issue for me then, because I still can't get in.

As far as the year of silence, the school offered enrollment for classes in February.  Do they not work on a calendar year?
Title: Re: Mystery schools
Post by: Iatros on May 16, 2014, 01:00:58 PM
Haha, things definitely work on a calendar year, but they may simply not stick to it strictly (although Year of Silence does sound pretty epic and official). The intention of the year of silence is really to just focus on teaching people without the burden of hundreds of new students pouring in too regularly. The school grew way, WAY faster than anybody expected.

As far as the internet issues go, the site is a new one, designed mostly independently by a few of the assistant teachers. Tweaks are being made pretty regularly. And at the end of the day, the number of people actually managing TDS stuff is very small. It's a magical organization based on spiritual development - they cannot simply hire help.

As far as emails sent go, like I said the coordinating people are not only few, not only busy, but the school is much bigger than people anticipated it to be. If they are basic questions that you don't think need to be directly answered by the teachers, feel free to PM me - I've been a student for 3 years and if nothing else can ask around internally if I can't answer something from my own knowledge.
Title: Re: Mystery schools
Post by: Shankara on May 29, 2014, 10:47:14 PM
The Divine Science is working on a brand new site that will be released hopefully in the next few months, but by the latest at the end of the year.  It will be a lot easier to use and the aim is for the topics/chats/lectures etc. to grow 'organically.'  It's actually brand new technology that the creator (also an assistant teacher in the school) is programming himself, so it should be pretty exciting when it's released.
Title: Re: Mystery schools
Post by: Redd on November 06, 2014, 06:52:14 PM
I read over Prophecy's little cult website and it looks like garbage.  The information that is, not the web design.  It's well worded and put together, it's just that the information is not true.  Just like the other mystery schools, it appears to be a subtle form of luciferianism or devil worship.  This is the type of cult that is going to claim enlightenment and illumination only to be walking around in spiritual darkness.  If you want spiritual truth then read the bible and get saved.  I'll make it easy for you who are learning disabled, here is a clip that can teach you how to achieve enlightenment in 7.5 minutes.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WDEBz25lGdY



Title: Re: Mystery schools
Post by: Sophocles on November 06, 2014, 08:43:39 PM
I read over Prophecy's little cult website and it looks like garbage.  The information that is, not the web design.  It's well worded and put together, it's just that the information is not true.  Just like the other mystery schools, it appears to be a subtle form of luciferianism or devil worship.  This is the type of cult that is going to claim enlightenment and illumination only to be walking around in spiritual darkness.  If you want spiritual truth then read the bible and get saved.  I'll make it easy for you who are learning disabled, here is a clip that can teach you how to achieve enlightenment in 7.5 minutes.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WDEBz25lGdY




Cool story bro.
Title: Re: Mystery schools
Post by: attempting on November 07, 2014, 09:03:33 AM
I read over Prophecy's little cult website and it looks like garbage.  The information that is, not the web design.  It's well worded and put together, it's just that the information is not true.  Just like the other mystery schools, it appears to be a subtle form of luciferianism or devil worship.  This is the type of cult that is going to claim enlightenment and illumination only to be walking around in spiritual darkness.  If you want spiritual truth then read the bible and get saved.  I'll make it easy for you who are learning disabled, here is a clip that can teach you how to achieve enlightenment in 7.5 minutes.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WDEBz25lGdY




(http://www.troll.me/images/futurama-fry/cant-tell-if-troll-or-just-extremely-stupid.jpg)
Title: Re: Mystery schools
Post by: ThePhoenix13 on November 22, 2014, 08:26:55 AM
I'm going to be initiated into the Ordo Templi Orientis within the coming month. The Divine Science looks interesting but I live in Sweden & feel I'd like to be able to meet in person other people who study & practice the Great Work.

You made a great decision and I'm glad you are aware of the importance of being able to make friends on the path and interact with them often.

Someone once asked the Buddha if having friends on the path was necessary for success. The Buddha said not only is it necessary, is it essential. That's why Buddhists are assigned Tao brothers to speak with on a regular basis to discuss the mysteries. Even Pythagoras would make his students get together and go for a walk to discuss after he gave his lectures.

I'm really happy for you  :)
Title: Re: Mystery schools
Post by: Tradition on December 16, 2014, 10:41:38 AM
This is a great idea. If there is anyone who would like a study partner, I would be willing to pick a weekly reading with them and have a weekly discussion about it. I'm very busy with other works at the moment so the reading would have to be under 100 pages. A small book like the Kybalion or other small works, like those of Sivananda would be perfect. Or we could try to make our way through IIH, discussing 1 step per week.

Any bodies interested?
Title: Re: Mystery schools
Post by: Merlin on December 16, 2014, 07:38:54 PM
I'm definitely interested! Either option sounds fine to me, though I'm making very slow progress in the IIH; completing a step per week would be too optimistic for my timeframe, but I would love to read and discuss them anyway.
Title: Re: Mystery schools
Post by: Iatros on December 17, 2014, 01:00:50 PM
I just want to stop by and agree that a week per step is far too short.

Most of the practices build on each other, and if they are not mastered, then there is no guarantee that future practices will work as intended, and the moment that your practices become ineffective is the moment your progress becomes dubious. What's more, if you rush ahead you will put yourself at risk because of your own imprecision. Maybe this will take the form of making clairvoyance lotion with a fire element corrupted by some vice. Maybe this will take the form of accepting daydream and hallucination as true perception or communication due to an uncontrolled mind. Whatever the case, it is not good.

I think that specific timelines for development often do more harm than good, but I am personally skeptical of anyone claiming to have spent less than several months on each step - just to be sure, if nothing else.
Title: Re: Mystery schools
Post by: Liberty on December 19, 2014, 12:48:35 AM
I'm new here but I'd love to take part in the IIH discussion group.  I'm assuming Tradition doesn't intend to try to actually spiritually master the whole book in ten weeks, but to simply discuss a chapter every week so we can all understand it better?