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Discussion Areas => Body Energy Arts => Topic started by: Koujiryuu on July 24, 2012, 02:25:47 PM

Title: What is Jing?
Post by: Koujiryuu on July 24, 2012, 02:25:47 PM
I am making a topic to be stickied about the subject of Jing, because I think a lot of people who are beginners and even some who are very experienced don't fully understand what Jing is and isn't, how it is developed, and how it manifests in arts like Taijiquan and Bagua.

Let us try and compile our knowledge on what Jing is from a traditional standpoint, how it can be developed, why and for what purpose. We should do this in a calm and rational matter, and attempt not to argue over trivialities or our own misunderstanding of the fundamental ideas.

From a different thread:

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Within my teachings, and the teachings of most Daoist systems of Qigong as well as Taijiquan Jing is elaborated on quite clearly.

First and foremost, there is more than one type of Jing. Now, Jing means "essence" in Chinese, though it could also be "force" or "internal power". It is the sexual force, and a component of your soul. Mystic was right, Jing is affected in many ways, including sexual activity, diet, stress, and balance of the energy system.

In Daoist alchemy there are two main kinds of Jing- Jing and Neijing. There are also two different types of Qi, Qi and Neiqi. Within these divisions are many other kinds of Qi (Qi of the skin, of the lungs, of the heart, of the brain, etc), and in Taiji there are many different types of Jing depending on the application of the force in a martial context; such as tien jing, dong jing, fa jing, hua jing. These are applications of power through body mechanics, footwork, proper technique and Taiji motions for self defense. See http://www.gstaichi.org/english/commonConceptsOfJings.php

As far as alchemy is concerned, there is a separation of the bodies' different forces. The goal of alchemy (per The Secret of the Golden Flower) is to reunify these forces before developing Shen. Neiqi (original Qi; the Qi you are born with, not that which you have gained or lost through life) resides in the Middle Dantien in the heart. Neijing (your soul; the original life force; your true essence) resides in the Lower Dantien and is separate from Jing gained or lost in life; yet Neijing is the root of Jing. Through the microcosmic orbit, zhan zhuang, certain Taiji forms, and meditation with a right mind, the Neiqi is sunk down the conception vessel from the Middle Dantien to the Lower Dantien and reunified with Neijing. So, you bring the original breath of life to the original primordial force-essence, where they unify and produce a cosmic body. Before this process happens, any and all Qigong will only affect your Qi; you basically cannot produce Jing faster than you expend it without unifying Neiqi and Neijing. The process of sinking the Neiqi, and Qi, takes anywhere from one to five years depending on the individual.

You are correct in stating that Jing is produced by the bone marrow. However, like mystic stated, doing Marrow Washing exercises alone will not produce Jing. It is only from a combination of Marrow Washing Qigong, microcosmic orbit, zhan zhuang, Taiqi, meditation, and a great deal of self-restraint and good diet choices over many years that Jing develops.

Furthermore, there is an old Taiqi adage that applies here.

"You can feel your Qi, but your opponent cannot. You can't feel your Jing, but your opponent can."

Jing is not a force you can feel. It only manifests itself martially when the proper technique is applied with the correct intention, and when Neiqi has been sunk to the Lower Dantien. The center of the body, the cinnabar elixir field, is the root of Jing; not your bones. Jing cannot be manipulated or felt. It is invisible. When utilized properly, your strike is like lightning coming from the dantien, and jing is the thunderclap that lags behind and follows a few seconds later. This is known as fa jing.

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Again, someone thinks that Jing is compressed Qi or that Jing needs to be compressed. This is not true. Jing is the force-essence that is created over a long time of practicing Qigong (particularly Zhan Zhuang). It has nothing to do with compression. You cannot compress that which cannot be felt or controlled; trying to is like trying to grab the wind..Jing is not compressed Qi.

From Mad Daoist, who summarized it succinctly when everyone else was doing DBZ crap:

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...."Jing: Neiqi is free-flowing and nice. It's good for health, meditation, etc. However, when put to use for martial applications, it falls short. However, neiqi can be converted into neijing, for the sharp demands of the Nei-jia. (Internal Martial Arts) Neijing will hence forth be called jing. Jing is at a higher frequency than qi- it's a lot more powerful. In the words of Waysun Liao, "Your opponent can feel your jing, but not your qi. You can feel your qi, but not your jing."
...."But I digress. Neiqi leads jing, it controls it. Once you can learn how to convert neiqi into jing, [discussed later] you can use it effectively against an opponent. Jing is far beyond the reaches of normal time and space. It's a power called down from the universe itself for use by human beings. Jing's only limit is your own yi. I'll get to that pretty soon."
"I think it was quite wise when a famous Ba-gua master compared jing to a Dragon. If you treat the dragon right, you can unleash it on your opponent, and the dragon will lend you his strength. Treat the dragon wrong, and it'll take a bite out of you. This illustrates the point that jing is not something to be played with, it's a real weapon, and should be treated as you would a knife or even a handgun. However, be careful with it, and it'll be your most powerful weapon."

Here is the section about Jing that was given to students of the Qigong study group:

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This week, we will be learning about Jing (C'hing) more, and learning an ancient Qigong form to develop it.

A very apt description of Jing comes from wikipedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jing_%28TCM%29):

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Jīng (Chinese: 精; Wade-Giles: ching) is the Chinese word for "essence", specifically kidney essence. Along with qì and shén, it is considered one of the Three Treasures Sanbao 三寶 of Traditional Chinese Medicine or TCM. According to tradition, Jīng is stored in the kidneys and is the most dense physical matter within the body (as opposed to shén which is the most volatile). It is said to be the material basis for the physical body and is yīn in nature, which means it nourishes, fuels, and cools the body. As such it is an important concept in the internal martial arts. Jīng is also believed by some to be the carrier of our heritage (similar to DNA). Production of semen, in the man, and menstrual blood (or pregnancy), in the woman, are believed to place the biggest strains on jīng. Because of this, some even equate jīng with semen, but this is inaccurate; the jīng circulates through the 8 extraordinary vessels and creates marrow and semen, among other functions.[1]

One is said to be born with a fixed amount of jīng (pre-natal jīng, also sometimes called yuan qi) and also can acquire jīng from food and various forms of stimulation (exercise, study, meditation.) Theoretically, jīng is consumed continuously in life; by everyday stress, illness, substance abuse, sexual intemperance, etc. Pre-natal jīng by definition cannot be renewed, and it is said it is completely consumed upon dying.

So, this jīng is considered quite important for longevity in TCM. Many disciplines related to qìgōng are devoted to the replenishment of "lost" jīng by restoration of the post-natal jīng. In particular, the internal martial arts (esp. T'ai chi ch'uan) and the Circle Walking of Baguazhang may be used to preserve pre-natal jīng and build post-natal jīng - if performed correctly. Commonplace in China is the sight of rénshēn (Kouji's note: rénshēn is Chinese ginseng) on sale in herb shops, at a wide range of prices - Kung Fu classics fans may remember it used as a plot element at the start of Drunken Master 2. Rénshēn, particularly Korean and Chinese, is said to bolster the jīng and a common medicinal recipe is to add to porridge (of course congee in China) along with cinnamon, goji berries and ginger for a sweet, warming breakfast when the weather starts to turn cold in Autumn.

An early mention of the term in this sense is in a 4th century BCE chapter called "Inner Training" (內業) of a larger text compiled during the Han dynasty, the Guǎnzi (管子).[2]

Jīng (精; essence) should not be confused with the related concept of jìn (勁; power) (Kouji's note: I'm not sure about the accuracy of this, they are the same thing as far as most internal arts are concerned), nor with jīng (經; classic/warp), which appears in many early Chinese book titles, such as the Nèi Jīng, yì jīng and Chá Jīng, the fundamental text on all the knowledge associated with tea.

This understanding of Jing comes from more of a TCM or Confucianist standpoint; thus, the correlation of Jing to the kidneys. Qigong and the internal arts use a different system of meridians and Dantien that are spiritual and conceptual and do not correlate to the organs. For our practices, this is more preferred, but the description above is correct as well.

So, then, how do we truly define Jing? Jing is a type of internal force-essence that is derived from the kidneys and sexual organs. It is impacted negatively by stress, sex and diet. It can be bolstered by certain Qigong forms, teas, herbs, meditation, proper sleep, and an overall healthy lifestyle. It is derived from Qi and for the purposes of the martial arts, led by Qi. You cannot feel or directly manipulate your Jing in the same manner as your Qi.

When you are first starting off in practice, your Qi will be very subtle. It may be faint. It will probably feel like a slight warmth or buzzing sensation. It will take time in meditation to feel, and will be difficult to fix or move. Through the practice of Daoist qigong, your Neiqi and Qi is led from the Middle Dantien in the heart, to the Lower Dantien below the naval. When this happens, neiqi will be unified with neijing, and Jing will start to be produced in a larger amount. At this point, the Qi is strengthened immensely, and Neiqi and Neijing give birth to strong Qi which derives from Jing. After this the Qi will cease to be faint and will instead feel like a very strong, liquid force. It will buzz and feel like electricity, cause the fine hairs on the arms to stand on end, feel very warm and tingly, or 'feel like molten metal' according to some. Your Qi will be much easier to manipulate and move around the body, or into others. It will only take a brief thought and spiritual assertion to feel, as opposed to minutes in meditation. All of these signs of a strong Qi are indicative of strong Jing and unification of Neiqi and Neijing. At this point, when you feel and move your Qi, you will also be affecting Jing as well. Qi leads Jing.

Anyone who has any questions or feels the information is unclear, please ask.

Also, I'm very interested in the input and understanding from other noteworthy practitioners here on the subject (donjitsu2 and mystic, I'm looking at you).

I hope this thread can eventually help many newbies understand what Jing really is and isn't, so further questions on the subject won't be coming from a confused standpoint.
Title: Re: What is Jing?
Post by: mystic on July 25, 2012, 05:10:09 PM
Jing is one of the most complex aspects of traditional chinese philosophy; not just in terms of qi gong, but in nei gong as well. It is easy to conclude that in spite of some similarities between both systems, the overlap starts and stops when you get into methods of deeper cultivation.

I think there are some unique aspects before I try to get into a deeper explanation of jing. Wang Liping outlines the importance of jing to nei dan practices, and life in the following:

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The human body is formed after receiving the parents'  Qi and Jing, which form the fetus and placenta. The essence of the lineage carried on from the parents' and grandparents' Jing and so on, develops from emptiness to substance

From this expression, we have a lot of areas to cover. The first area is this aspect of Jing. Anyone here can make the conclusion that it is a necessary ingredient that forms life according to Daoist philosophy. Pragmatically, a person can refer that (Jing) to denote essence. It is here where the usage of the term gets extremely tricky. On a physical level, we can refer to Jing as the sexual essence derived from man and woman, specifically the male seminal essence. Further reading into the subject indicates a transformative process that Jing has.

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The first part of thes of the fetus created are the three yuan sources of the upper, middle, and lower capacities and the kidneys. From the kidneys, the two eyes gradually develope, then the two outside kidneys followed by the sexual organs of the indivdiuals

A variety of processes are described that are important. But perhaps the most important and fundamental is that jing, in and of itself, aids in the creation of the human body. This aspects transforms the references that we have noted Jing to have in just being sexual essence because there is now lots of evidence that jing is in each and every single cell of the human body in addition to Qi. From here, if there were actually a closer physical (and western) interpretation of Jing, it would be that Jing is our body's hormones. And there is a lot of rationale to that. From the brief commentary mentioned by Wang Liping, we realize that Jing is related to growth and development of a variety of organs and systems throughout the body. In a western medical sense, the regulation of growth and development is chiefly centered around a didactic relationship between the mother's hormones and the father's hormones which drive the process of mitosis and eventually embryogenesis. In spite of this, the most important physical aspect of Jing from a western context and a Daoist context is the hormones that drive sexual development.

The most interesting physical trend about Jing is the developmental aspect Jing plays throughout our very life. What is known is that the lack of Jing has a profound effect on our physical body. While systems have indicated that it is lack of kidney Jing (sexual essence) that is an issue, there are a lot of issues surrounding Jing. Before I get into that, there is something that truly must be said before continuing. From Wang Liping's interpretation we notice that Jing and Qi are connected (actually shen holds a deeper connection to Jing as well). A simple, yet profound way to recall the relationship is imagining Jing and Qi like a battery. For brevity, Qi is developed from Yin and Yang, and Jing can be considered the battery fluid. Jing fluid powers Qi through transformative processes and Qi has the ability to regenerate Jing fluid. An easy way to really explain this relationship is through the following

Jing <=> Qi

denotinng the bidirectional relationship that Jing has on Qi and vice versa. Throughout fetal development, however, Jing rests in the lower area of the body, while Qi rests in the middle part of the body and Shen rests in the upper part of the body. In terms of control, Shen controls Jing. There's no question about that. The fire of the Shen (conscious mind) ignites Qi, which ignites Jing. In this aspect, Jing (and to a lesser extent Qi) act as water as Shen acts as fire. Any disharmony between Jing and Shen will lead to a lot of problems with an individual's Qi. For instance, you use up lots of Jing right? Well, sometimes the signs and symptoms of losing Jing is related to eyesight decline, lack of mental focus, and also back pain. Jing lubricates the bones, it acts as fluid for the bones. The more jing you have, the more pliable the bones are. But moving beyond the bones is the effect that loss of Jing has on Shen. When Shen fire runs rampant, eyesight decreases, mental focus decreases because of the close relationship Jing and Shen have. This also effects the levels of Qi as it tries to promote balance within the body. In time, the body will undergo Yin and Yang imbalance, which of course leads to some medical interventions.

What many of us are thinking is that Jing is lost through too much sex right? Not exactly. Jing can be lost through starvation as well, lack of sleep, too much thought, actually it is far too easy to lose Jing. And humans lose Jing every single day through a variety of different activities. What one has to consider is that with the act of sex, you lose the most Jing. That loss also includes masturbation as well. But consider what occurs when you have abundance of Jing (assuming there aren't any things you are holding back in Shen). The development (rather storing) of Jing without leading to burning of Shen will have a profound impact on our physical appearance and drastically change the way an indivdiual looks as well as their perception of reality. Why does a person look so young naturally for instance? One of my closest friends who I love dearly doesn't look a day over 17 (she's 29 going on 30).

Before I really get into the nitty-gritty of at least Jing, there is one huge aspect that has to be stated. While Jing is probably one of the most physical aspects of the three treasures, there is also a metaphysical point that must be explained. Recall in the first quote that Jing is an accumulation of an individual's lineage. In this case, we can consider this a very powerful breaking point in that Jing can also denote threads of karma an individual may have from their lineage. At this point, I won't try to mince words. Jing is also related to an individual's human destiny. This is not one aspect that I share. The Wu Liu Pai also shares this aspect in consideration of Ming. From what I've noted, the concept of ming is solely related to Jing, but adds the component of destiny and karma to this. In this aspect, we can consider that as how much stamina or life a person has left. Sometimes, this aspect is used up not in old age, but in young age. Again, practitioners get a unique sense of destiny here (but again, this is my interpretation) as well as lines of karma from the filial lineage.

From this discussion, an observer can make a few conclusions regarding Jing. The most important for our purposes is that Jing is in our body (in every single cell). For the purpose of practice, however, it is sexual essence that is important. When anyone begins any foundation regardless of school, you won't be having sex for a period of time. The reason why this happens is simple. Unlike schools of Qi Gong which argue that the xia dan tian (lower dan tian) is already made, schools of longmen pai believe the xia dan tian has to be made. To make this? Jing; sexual essence. We can already surmise that Jing is a measure of physical life and because of the karmic line Jing has as well as the aspect Jing has with destiny, one can argue there is a high level of spiritual thought with this too. Jing is the battery that fuels physical and spiritual development. Especially in terms of the longmen pai
Title: Re: What is Jing?
Post by: Koujiryuu on July 25, 2012, 05:41:24 PM
Thank you for the excellent post, mystic.

I should also clarify that when Jing is referred to as "kidney essence", they are talking about the outer kidneys- the testicles in men and the ovaries in women. From my understanding, this is a distinctly Chinese concept, in TCM the gonads are referred to as kidneys. This makes sense, as they are similar in shape to the actual physical kidney responsible for the bodies' filtration.
Title: Re: What is Jing?
Post by: supadude on July 25, 2012, 08:08:26 PM
Good work, a nice and easy to understand reconciliation of terminology.

A+  :)
Title: Re: What is Jing?
Post by: Koujiryuu on July 25, 2012, 09:24:03 PM
So, in order to reinforce the viewpoint taken by internal stylists (and also the Dao schools) about what Jing is and isn't, I suggest we provide links to outside sources.

In case ANYONE is unclear about this, Jing is not pronounced, well, Jing. The proper Chinese pronunciation of Jing is like the female name, "Jean".

Some would argue that there is nothing mystical about Jing. Like many things in Chinese arts, it's a paradox- there is and there isn't. Within Daoyin alchemy and the Dao schools there definitely is a mystical side, but still, they will probably not teach you methods of directly cultivating Jing, only Qi and Shen. Within the neijia (internal arts), Jing is utilized more as a combination of body mechanics, posture, intent, lowering the center of gravity, and adapting and redirecting the force of others. In the neijia, some schools will have you directly channel Qi in a strike, though this is not necessary for Fa Jing, and it can be done without that.

Jing can not be directly developed or manipulated in the same manner as Qi. That is to say, Jing is not an energy you can control, move around, make constructs out of, and whatnot. However, Jing can be developed for the demands of the neijia by Zhan Zhuang (Standing on Stake), which teaches you to lower the bodies' center of gravity and builds the necessary strong muscle fibers in the legs and lower back for something like Fa Jing.

Since I'm a realist, and my ideas are based in actual practice, I'm going to start right off with an idea that's immediately applicable to any martial artists out there. This is the Jing force being directly employed in a combat sense. Do I have some knowledge of transmuting Jing to Qi, and the mystic schools of alchemy? Of course. But to keep things simple and easily understandable and demonstrable, I'm going to provide links dealing with Fa Jing (which you can also find details on in Intermediate Daoyin Qigong and Applications (http://forums.vsociety.net/index.php/topic,8660.0.html) here on Veritas).

Erle Montaigue Fa Jing video- http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mEdvJvza1Yc
Erle Montaigue Fa Jing essay: http://www.taijiworld.com/taiji-qigong/Articles/FADS.html
Fa Jing is like a coiled spring: http://ejmas.com/pt/2007pt/ptart_meng_0708.html
Fa Jing mechanics utilize body posture and physical principles: http://www.clearstaichi.com/fa-jing/tai-chi-fa-jing-704.html  (ignore the pronunciation of 'Jing' in the videos, it's wrong)
What are the San Bao? http://www.pro-holistic.co.uk/Definitions/what-is-sanbao.aspx
Another stance on Fa Jing: http://articles.submityourarticle.com/how-to-do-fa-jing-issuing-energy-in-tai-chi-hsing-i-and-bagua-80593
What is Fa Jing by John Chow: http://www.yellowbamboohk.com/Tai_Chi/taichiarticles/Fa%20Jing%20by%20John%20Chow.html
A great article on the San Bao from the perspective of a Xingyi Sifu: http://www.kungfu.org/messagegm31.shtml

If anyone else has links to articles on Jing and what it really is, feel free to add more.

Title: Re: What is Jing?
Post by: Neeros on September 09, 2012, 03:10:00 AM
I'll take a quote from my Sigungs website. "When you can generate an energy flow smoothly, the next step is to increase the volume of flow and transform it to internal force. This is transforming qi to jing (jing here refers not to substance, but to consolidated qi), and it is more effectively attained by sitting on a horse stance."
Title: Re: What is Jing?
Post by: CamKrist on January 10, 2013, 07:06:44 AM
Similar subject was being discussed at yahoo answers last week. I can post the link if needed.
Title: Re: What is Jing?
Post by: Mind_Bender on February 05, 2013, 03:56:28 AM
I prefer and seek out simplicity and cross cultural explanations, which has been a complicated and rewarding journey. I know this is a thread specifically for Jing, but it seems Qi, Shen and Dao are important to the overall explanation of Jing and its mystery. Here are my thoughts on Jing, Qi, Shen and Dao from my limited understanding. I hope you enjoy and can take something positive from it.

Jing (chi'n) is basically power, not just physical force or brute strength or what have you, but true power (hence 'essence'), like over all health and well being. Jing is the power that fuels life, hence the referral to a battery. The Lower Dan Ti'en (tan den) in the abdomen holds the sexual fluids, which produces life, a most powerful force and is known as the Seat of Power in martial arts world wide, as it is where all strikes and movements originate from for optimal power and evasiveness and where all breath is taken in, retained and transformed into higher forms of Jing, Qi and Shen. The Jing center is related to the Svadisthanna Chakra (Wheel of the Seat of Power), related to Water- harmony, healing, strength, power, sexuality and intimacy.

Qi (ch'i) is energy, the power and constant flow of electricity and oxygen (among other subtle forces) internally (nei qi) and externally (wei qi). If Jing is the battery than Qi is the current that the battery gives off; the breath, oxygen and radiation of life. The Middle Dan Ti'en in the solar plexus retains the fire of life, or Will Power. In martial arts we strike this area to knock the breath out of the opponent, a metaphor for loss of power... once breath is gone life is gone. It is related to the Manipura Chakra (Wheel of the Brilliant House), the microcosmic Sun, the house of Will, related to Fire- passion, determination, ferocity, personal power and health (possibly the Fire of Illumination).

Shen is spirit, often referred to as mind (similar Yi [intent]), the subtlest force of creative power. If Jing is the battery, Qi the electrical current than Shen is the electrician. The Higher Dan Ti'en in the forehead is the realm of thought, intention and consciousness. It holds the most important organ of the human body, the brain as it is connected to and controls our entire nervous sytem. In martial arts when the mind is calm the body just reacts and makes the fight more like a dance (oh, Bruce Lee!), on a more advanced level we learn to project emotions through the eyes or bring up the opponents own negative emotions to confuse and over power them. It is related to the Ajna Chakra (Wheel of Command), the central station where all information comes and goes, is retained and pushed to the subconscious for future evaluation or termination (transformation, as you can never truly terminate a thought). Its element is Consciousness and is related to the five brainwaves, learning, insight, ESP and various telepathic and psychokinetic abilities.

Dao (Tao) is the empty force, stillness, static, literally the 'Way' ('do' [pronounced doh] in Japanese). It is the beginning and end of all life and existence. If Jing is the battery, Qi the electric current and Shen the electrician, then what is Dao? What is Dao? I'll leave that to the Immortals! (Not so funny) humor aside, it is the state in which we flow, act, react and 'let go' and are non-attached. It may or may not be related to the Sahasrara Chakra (Wheel of a Thousand Lotus Petals), at the tip of the head (Pa Hui). It's element is all and none, but can be comprehended as Unity or Connection and represents Divine connection, prophecy, Enlightenment. When this Chakra is fully open all other Chakras are open and flowing smoothly, creating what the Vajra Buddhists call the Rainbow Body, and others refer to as Liberation, Enlightenment, Conversation with the Holy Guardian Angel, Sainthood, etc.

All four powers, or concepts, are empowered by breathing, posture, movement, meditation, all included in nei gong and qi gong (as you already know) as well as in certain types of Yoga and various Mystery Traditions (although I would say the Daoists and Yogis [including Tibetan Yogis] have it best]. Certain Masters also say that faith and prayer are fundamental to the development of Jing, Qi, Shen and Dao, especially for Shen and Dao, as it is the Dao, and its myriad enlightened inhabitants and primordial beings, that place Realization upon the practitioner, but that is just opinion, for we still cannot fully explain the amazing power of faith, if that is even possible.

There are many complicated explanations of Jing, QI, Shen and Dao related to organs, Yin-Yang and the Five Elements Theory, but they are just words for concepts and expressions of aspects of life that must be developed and experienced, many of which are only taught to the highest disciples in the temples. We may gain health, strength and happiness, among countless other treasures, but the truest and purest understanding is only for the Realized few (by Realized I do not mean Enlightened, because I have met very powerful Daoist Wizards, and they are not Enlightened [at least not in the Buddhist term] but very powerful and knowledgeable in their craft... Realized may not be the right word, it just sounds nice in relation to the subject). Although I believe that learning from a qualified Sifu or Guru is fundamental, there is no reason not to gather, share and experiment (carefully and patiently) with the knowledge that is presented in video and written word!

I have added the Chakra correspondences because I believe it will give a greater understanding of the power of Jing, Qi, Shen and Dao, especially since it was traveling Chinese monks who frequented the temples of India and learned many things of spiritual, energetic and physical cultivation from the Great Yogis and Sadgurus (highest realization of God/Creative Source in Yoga).
Title: Re: What is Jing?
Post by: Koujiryuu on February 05, 2013, 09:34:46 PM
This is a very good contribution, Mind_Bender. Thank you.

I agree with pretty much everything you've said.

The one thing I would like to emphasize, though, is that trying to define these concepts intellectually or approach them completely scientifically without experiencing them, and embodying them, will get you nowhere. I'm not inferring you are doing this; because you speak of these things as if you have true understanding of them that comes with practice. However, I'm just making a note that you cannot hope to understand these things on an intellectual level alone. There are some people I can think of in this community that question mysticism and the reality and necessity of a concept like Jing or Shen. They can easily accept Qi as a synonym for Psi, but those other forces elude their understanding, and they write them off. This is because they try to comprehend them almost entirely intellectually instead of putting them into practice in their lives by doing the work (Qigong, Microcosmic Orbit, and so on).

Regarding Dao, to say much of it is foolhardy. I try to avoid the subject.

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1. THE EMBODIMENT OF TAO

Even the finest teaching is not the Tao itself.
Even the finest name is insufficient to define it.
Without words, the Tao can be experienced,
and without a name, it can be known...

...Through knowledge, intellectual thought and words,
the manifestations of the Tao are known,
but without such intellectual intent
we might experience the Tao itself.

Just be yourself, live your life, be accepting and nurturing, forgive others, forgive yourself when you err, and love others. This is embodiment.

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There are many complicated explanations of Jing, QI, Shen and Dao related to organs, Yin-Yang and the Five Elements Theory, but they are just words for concepts and expressions of aspects of life that must be developed and experienced, many of which are only taught to the highest disciples in the temples. We may gain health, strength and happiness, among countless other treasures, but the truest and purest understanding is only for the Realized few (by Realized I do not mean Enlightened, because I have met very powerful Daoist Wizards, and they are not Enlightened [at least not in the Buddhist term] but very powerful and knowledgeable in their craft... Realized may not be the right word, it just sounds nice in relation to the subject). Although I believe that learning from a qualified Sifu or Guru is fundamental, there is no reason not to gather, share and experiment (carefully and patiently) with the knowledge that is presented in video and written word!

You can learn a lot from books, you can learn a lot from the internet. You can learn even more from proper meditation. Some people don't have access to instructors, and some people don't have money for it. I'd like to think what I've done here helps those types of people.

When you learn to let go of the whole idea of Enlightenment- it is hogwash- you are much better off for it. (See U.G. Krishnamurti.) A lot of people get very excited about these ancient theories, and want to profess their knowledge on them. The symbolism, stories, systems, elements, and culture blinds them. They seek after things like Enlightenment and practice with with diligence. After some time, though, it wears off and they quit practicing (oftentimes, for good). What they don't understand, is stoicism. When you only look at the surface of things, and let it affect you, it disturbs your balance. There is no need to be excited about ideas like Qi, Jing, Shen, Dao, Brahma, Kundalini, 5 Elements, Enlightenment....or in the more common cases- Teleportation, Transmutation, Levitation, Empty Force, Telepathy, and other such abilities. I have said it before and others have disagreed with me- mostly because they themselves are blinded- none of this matters. It disrupts your balance and leads to delusion. Just center yourself and live your life. Do good and love others. Meditate and become your true Self. That's all you need.

Regards.
Title: Re: What is Jing?
Post by: Mind_Bender on February 05, 2013, 11:06:05 PM
Thank you for the reply. And I do agree full heartedly that no amount of academic study and intellectual cramming can set you up for a true understanding of Jing, Qi, Shen and, especially Dao (or whatever name fits your ideals of abstraction and utter unknowingness). I have not given up on Enlightenment because I believe there are so many ways one can be truly Enlightened although striving after such an accomplishment can cause chaos, delusion and, as you pointed out, giving up completely. Enlightenment is also highly subjective, as I have met Atheists who are more 'Enlightened' that most spiritual seekers I have met and conversed with. As the believers say, 'God' speaks through us all even if we know it or believe it or not.

Yes, the attainment of ESP, psychokinesis and Siddhis are delusions on the path leading to more desire and attachment, although on a subtle level. Although, I must be honest, attaining these powers I believe is a very rewarding and positive step on the never ending ladder to Enlightenment or Self-Realization (although we already know ourselves we just ignore us). I cannot ever hope to achieve Enlightenment, Understanding, Liberation, Godhood or Ultimate Compassion and Loving Kindness until I deal with my desires and karma... I have been searching myself and always come back to the practice of attaining, what I refer to as Siddhis, as I enjoy my desires and attachments as they fuel my inner fire. This is the truest I can be to myself and with others... doing what I love sometimes means doing what others are too afraid or too proud to do for fear they will be deluded or led down to the hell of consuming desire and attachment and questioning authority and rebelling even if you know the advice and warnings to be correct. We must walk our own path no matter the consequence. This is how we face fear and embrace courage.

Siddhis are a part of all our true selves. I have come to believe we need to experience these abilities to fully come into understanding of our true selves as these are our talents and natural to us. For those of us that honestly strive, it is meant for us... at least the striving even if the Siddhis never present themselves. I have notice something spectacular about Siddhis; one may seek the 8 Major Siddhis and the 32 Minor Siddhis but the Siddhi that will present itself first (and maybe only) is the one you are already in touch with, your natural talent. Yes, Siddhis may be a hindrance but sometimes we need to strive for desires (even if we never fulfill them) in order to disengage attachment to them. By accomplishing/getting our desire we may stay stuck in them in constant delusion and vicious cycles, but for those of us that seek heightened awareness of self and loving kindness for all others, these accomplished desires soon fall to the wind and the ones we have not attained yet also fall to the wind. Karma has settled itself and we move on ever forward in the motion of life and mystery.

As me and a good friend of mine have concluded in our personal musings, he put the words better than I ever could, "I know I don't know anything, but I don't care." As humans in bodies we are nothing but babies, toddlers at best, in this vast existence so we seek to be as our parents, our creator, this is why we question, rebel, and try to be as Gods among Gods. This is also why the practical understanding of Jing, Qi, Shen and the abilities these Three Treasures can give us are so important to the spiritual seeker. These concepts are intellectualized for those of us that have experienced them first hand so we may teach it to others in a systematic format (hence the advent of qi gong, religion and mystery traditions).

Finding a good teacher is rather hard in this society, even if we do have the money. Also, if we do have money, some teachers charge way too much for the knowledge (which makes me question their morale and compassion even if their spiritual power and authority is great). One thing I have found interesting, and now very true, is the old proverb "The teacher will come when the student is ready." If we practice diligently through books, online with forums such as this one and videos and stay true to our path than the teacher will come, whether it is a flash of insight, a spiritual guide or a physical teacher. I understand we here for no other reason than to be and the lust for knowledge and power and spiritual ability is a delusion of this existence, I must quote a few songs and lyrics starting with a very famous teen angst affirmation made famous once again by Green Day recently, "I don't care!" Which leads to the musical bafoonery with a twist of romantic maturity of Blink 182 "I guess this is growing up," to H20's philosophical stance of "One life, one chance, gotta' do it right!" to the Unseen, "Be yourself to be free!" and finally leading to the beautiful rhythms of Lindsey Stirling's "Song of the Caged Bird" and "Transcendence." In other words we fight our way onto a path of rebellion that leads to maturity. As we mature we see we have a limited time here with these precious bodies and seek to live the best life we can for benefit of ourselves and our loved ones at the very least. Once we learn to live a better life we start to evolve within and free ourselves of cultural and social restraints, freeing ourselves from the dungeon of our own creation and finally attaining a place of inner peace and outer tranquility and love and serene passion for life.

Thank you for listening.
Title: Re: What is Jing?
Post by: Koujiryuu on February 05, 2013, 11:12:17 PM
I can't really reply to everything you said, however:

"I know I don't know anything, but I don't care."

"Be yourself to be free!"

These hit the nail on the head.

Siddhis don't matter. Ultimately, outside of Qigong and it's practical applications, even Qi, Jing and Shen don't matter.

Title: Re: What is Jing?
Post by: Mind_Bender on February 05, 2013, 11:29:00 PM
I totally agree and understand none of that matters, I was just spouting why I love them and the reasons for it. All the texts (at least the more ancient ones) that I have read, even my Sifu, say Siddhis, Jing, Qi and Shen don't matter, and are actually bad for you (as they raise heat and cause qi deviations), except on a purely physical and energetic level if you want to be a powerful fighter, which such practices should be given up for Water methods as you age. For spiritual progress, BLAH!, all you need is you but for basic health and martial applications it is good to know these concepts and practice them to destroy an opponent quickly and effectively and not allow them to the same to you.
Title: Re: What is Jing?
Post by: Koujiryuu on February 06, 2013, 01:57:52 PM
Quote from: Koujiryuu
When you learn to let go of the whole idea of Enlightenment- it is hogwash- you are much better off for it. (See U.G. Krishnamurti.) A lot of people get very excited about these ancient theories, and want to profess their knowledge on them. The symbolism, stories, systems, elements, and culture blinds them. They seek after things like Enlightenment and practice with with diligence. After some time, though, it wears off and they quit practicing (oftentimes, for good). What they don't understand, is stoicism. When you only look at the surface of things, and let it affect you, it disturbs your balance. There is no need to be excited about ideas like Qi, Jing, Shen, Dao, Brahma, Kundalini, 5 Elements, Enlightenment....or in the more common cases- Teleportation, Transmutation, Levitation, Empty Force, Telepathy, and other such abilities. I have said it before and others have disagreed with me- mostly because they themselves are blinded- none of this matters. It disrupts your balance and leads to delusion. Just center yourself and live your life. Do good and love others. Meditate and become your true Self. That's all you need.

Quote
I totally agree and understand none of that matters, I was just spouting why I love them and the reasons for it.

Not to sound condescending or anything- but this is pretty much the warning I was trying to give with the above paragraph.

I don't think you're deluded, in fact I think the opposite. You've proven through your words that you know what you're talking about, in all the recent posts you've made.

However, I just want to emphasize (again) that being mystified, or even worse, obsessed with something like Qigong or Yoga and it's basic concepts and ideas is bad. That is the opposite of what these arts attempt to teach.

You must look at all the different techniques and fundamental concepts as part of a greater whole. It is said that Jing turns to Qi, Qi turns to Shen, and Shen returns to nothingness. I won't claim I'm enlightened, or I have mastered Shen, but I have tasted some of this refinement to nothingness. When you experience it, everything else falls apart, and you realize that the Dao is what's important. At that point, you lose all attachment to the basic concepts and they no longer seem exotic, or mystical. At the same time, you truly begin to believe in them wholly and accept them as the way things are. Then you learn to let go of them, and realize there is something much greater, yet at the same time very small. You can still practice the basic Qigong, Microcosmic Orbit and other trans-mutational exercises, but you don't necessarily need to. Just basic meditation is more rewarding than ever. When you have no attachment to the ideas, the ideas truly become themselves.
Title: Re: What is Jing?
Post by: Mind_Bender on February 06, 2013, 03:37:33 PM
I understand, and you are not being condescending; I appreciate the honesty, but as one seeker to another, we as spirits held in physical bodies have no choice but to be attached to ideas, relationships, food, knowledge... it is all sustenance and survival for ourselves, and if we are aware and compassionate enough, to other beings as well. If it helps you to understand my point further, I am by far a Left-Hand idealist and practitioner; Godhood is every humans right and should be attained... as a Left-Hand philosopher I seek the essence of Continual and Autonomous Self (theologically Lucifer, Phosphorus, Set, Shiva, Kali), although I still believe in a higher power than myself, I would just rather not be its bitch (excuse the language, but it gets the point across), hence the journey towards Siddhis and the mastery of Jing, Qi and Shen... I can wait for Dao.

Some call this delusion but that is because these practices (Qigong and Yoga) have been filled by centuries of dogma. Who really knows what's right or wrong? After all it is the great Sages who say even right and wrong are delusion and we must follow our own path. We get this knowledge from Master to Student, who becomes the Master and teaches new Students, but it's lineage, not exactly truth. Left-Hand is opposite, not against, the ideas of the Right-Hand- after all the terms come from ancient Hinduism- the Right and Left Hands of God- they each seek the Creative Source just in different (and sometimes grotesque) ways. This may sound contradictory to me agreeing that none of it matters, but it is not. I do understand nothing matters but the ebb and flow of the Cycles, but as in my last post "I know I don't know everything, but I don't care."

When we meditate, whether we know it or not, we are attached to the idea of non attachment. When we are in a state of Void, which is different for all of us, yes, nothing truly matters but that union and seeking after it only deludes us more, but after that initial high and experience we must return to this world, this reality, with all its attachments and delusions, unless of course we become Enlightened at that instant.

The only problem I have with just simple meditation is sometimes events and emotions arise that we are not ready to deal with that lead us down further into delusion and attachment to other far worse perversions. The theory and practice of Yoga, Qigong and Magic of Illumination teaches us how to deal with these feelings so we are not deluded and can clear any blockages, be they physical, energetic or mental. At the highest level meditation is all we need, but that is at the highest level. (I am assuming you are talking about Chan/Zen, correct if I am wrong).

Some of us seek Union with the divine by obliteration of all sense of self (classic Buddhism), or uniting in the Eternal Glory of our All-Might Creator (Judeo-Christian) and some of us love the Creator but we want to play in their creation as self aware beings (Isolated Intelligence, as Stephen Flowers says- the Left-Hand perspective), or just damn ourselves and think we can become the Creator (delusional Left-Hand perspective).

As an aside, I am not arguing nor trying to make you wrong as your knowledge and understanding is obviously vast and appreciated, I am just presenting my opinions. All in all, it really does come down to stillness and silence, but sometimes we just need to play!
Title: Re: What is Jing?
Post by: mystic on February 06, 2013, 06:15:20 PM
I agree with a lot of what's being said especially in terms of nei gong cultivation. The emphasis of being is very strong in the dao that Wang Liping as well as many of my teachers have emphasized as is the emphasis on breaking the misconceptions about definitions.

However..

Quote
Finding a good teacher is rather hard in this society, even if we do have the money. Also, if we do have money, some teachers charge way too much for the knowledge (which makes me question their morale and compassion even if their spiritual power and authority is great). One thing I have found interesting, and now very true, is the old proverb "The teacher will come when the student is ready." If we practice diligently through books, online with forums such as this one and videos and stay true to our path than the teacher will come, whether it is a flash of insight, a spiritual guide or a physical teacher. I understand we here for no other reason than to be and the lust for knowledge and power and spiritual ability is a delusion of this existence, I must quote a few songs and lyrics starting with a very famous teen angst affirmation made famous once again by Green Day recently, "I don't care!" Which leads to the musical bafoonery with a twist of romantic maturity of Blink 182 "I guess this is growing up," to H20's philosophical stance of "One life, one chance, gotta' do it right!" to the Unseen, "Be yourself to be free!" and finally leading to the beautiful rhythms of Lindsey Stirling's "Song of the Caged Bird" and "Transcendence." In other words we fight our way onto a path of rebellion that leads to maturity. As we mature we see we have a limited time here with these precious bodies and seek to live the best life we can for benefit of ourselves and our loved ones at the very least. Once we learn to live a better life we start to evolve within and free ourselves of cultural and social restraints, freeing ourselves from the dungeon of our own creation and finally attaining a place of inner peace and outer tranquility and love and serene passion for life.

There's a lot here that really needs to be clarified I think.
In my tradition, it really is best not to practice if you don't have a teacher if your ultimate goal is to walk the path of thunder (Mo Pai, Yang Shen Dao, whatever). This can be a really huge problem especially with teachers in China. The core emphasis is this
The three treasures, while inconsequential, are very consequential especially in terms of the teacher explaining the internal and external processes here. Not everything can be learned from a book. Two examples of this that come to mind is the dan tian and breathing.

Understand that the two concepts have been so permeated in Western culture, we do have a heavy assumption that we sort of have an idea of the concepts. And some aspects of it can be correct, however, most masters will use both terms in cryptic ways. When we see dan (for instance) we will assume lower dan tian, which is correct. However, no one ever really gets that the true dan tian is the entire body. Truly entering the dan tian means literally letting go of all. It is an absence of all senses and all material reality where this is the true practice of song form begins.

I mean yeah at the end of the day the terms are inconsequential. But bear in mind, if anyone does travel to China, terms matter. The definitions matter, and so are the esoteric interpretations (even to native chinese speakers). Given this, are you sure you really want to consult a book and discover the myriad issues created with self cultivated practices?

Recall li hongzhi was a "student" of Wang Liping (he studied with him for a few sessions) and out came falun dafa. While it has a lot of political ire, the main issue is that the practices can disperse shen to levels that are difficult to heal. Even for Wang Liping. If you want to practice solo from the book, do so. Remember YMMV.

Honestly, the only time I truly began to train was when I didn't train from a book. But again, the conjecture depends on your goal of the practice. If you're goal is to study with the immortals, go ahead. Just remember, everything is measured. Everything returns back to definitions and cultural interpretation.

Ultimately, it isn't about walking the walk and talking the talk, it is being. Agreed. Just remember, if the goal is to follow the path of Chinese cultivation (especially if the goal is immortality), then you may want to study the terms and not consult just from text on the subject. I haven't come across one book that really gets it. Charles Luk's book gets aspects of it, but nothing like a good teacher.

But even finding a teacher is destiny. And sometimes that never happens...
Title: Re: What is Jing?
Post by: Mind_Bender on February 06, 2013, 07:23:11 PM
I do have an instructor who was a Priest of Mao Shan and Zheng Yi Sects of Daoism and a Traditional Chinese Medicine Doctor for about 20 years. He gave up the esoteric aspects for personal reasons and currently only teaches Chaoyi Fanhuan Qigong (CFQ), Jiang Riang Qioa's Classical Baguazhang and Yang Style Taijiquan. He disagrees with many of the practices of his old lineage as he believes they (esoteric practices in general) lead to bad karma and qi deviation (I'm still trying to come to terms with this, but can see some of his points). I have and still do learn a lot from books (mainly Sanskrit Mantra and Western Magic and Paganism), but I also keep in touch with my Sifu if anything goes wrong and any questions I have on the practices. He is very knowledgeable and a good man who prefers me only to practice Bagua on a physical level and CFQ for energy work and live a mundane life, but being a Sifu and me being an eager student he understands and always tells me to "dance your dance" and fully explains the benefits, downfalls and reasons why such practices were good for the time and culture and why they may not be so good any more. Although he believes certain internal practices lead to heat and burning of life force, he still imparts the knowledge and skill to me, with an emphasis on grounding after my esoteric and gong fu practice to release any blockages or deviations.

I admit I know little of the spiritual and esoteric reasons for Jing, Qi and Shen as they are not emphasized in CFQ (at least not at my beginning level) but I am progressing into those areas for martial purposes (Fa Jing, Small Golden Bell, etc). I understand to really have a good and healthy grasp on Qigong one must learn under a qualified master and practice constantly with proper attention to detail always striving for perfection of technique and theory thus leading to perfection of self through proper understanding and experience. There is also the idea of knowledge and wisdom being transfered from Sifu to student by either osmosis or actual conscious transmission through ritual or meditation or what not.

I am a big supporter of learning under a master, but some times we just don't have the means of finding one, that is why I mentioned "the teacher will come when the student is ready." It happened for me when I was just a book worm and now my knowledge and skill is tenfold.

Title: Re: What is Jing?
Post by: Koujiryuu on February 06, 2013, 07:28:29 PM
Now, mind you the majority of what I do is very basic and focuses on the Microcosmic Orbit and Void meditation as well as standing Qigong. I'm still of the opinion that you can make some progress without a master, and that it's better to practice spiritual development at all as opposed to not practicing because you can't find a teacher. Still, a teacher is preferable.

My question, Mind_Bender, is if you can possibly elaborate more on what your Sifu believes and why- concerning practice in the modern day. This is something I struggle with as well, and have trouble coming to terms with, and is a part of my current inactivity and lack of practicing (reconciling ancient spiritual practices vs the modern day technological lifestyle). Thanks.
Title: Re: What is Jing?
Post by: Mind_Bender on February 07, 2013, 02:57:41 AM
When it comes to practices such as Zhan Zhuang and Da Cheng Chuan his reasons for them being bad are because the practice develops heat int he body, too much Wind interacting with the already Fiery kidney energy, creating a heat storm of sorts in the body. Fa Jing (which Bagua develops through what is called Whipping Spine- which is the Microcosmic Orbit in action), Iron Body, walking the Circle, simply, any martial art or athletic endeavor, develops intense internal energy which burns life force faster than normal if not properly cooled down by grounding. This heat is what develops internal power for striking, taking hits (Iron Body), and drive to succeed in sport and life, which is why it is important for the martial artist and athlete, but it also leads to aggressive behavior and may even lead to drinking and other problems outside of training. The heat raised during training is so intense on the kidneys that when the athlete is not training they need to supplement that heat with something else, hence alcohol consumption and sometimes heavier sexual appetites (passion, desire, sex, determination, fighting spirit are all Fire energies). You can see this in many stories of old school Okinawan Karate and Gong Fu Masters drinking after training or on their days off and hitting the Red Light District (it is customary in certain Japanese Dojos for high ranked students to drink a bottle of sake with their Sensei if they have been on their own journey and wish to catch up. Sharing sake between the Sensei and adept students is also part of what is called a Kamiza ceremony, which is an induction into the Sensei's Kai, or martial Family). It is said that the development of heat is good for sickness and overall health (just look at Zhan Zhuang, Bikram Yoga, Tummo Meditation and Jing, Qi and Shen cultivation) but too much can be deadly as previously discussed.

When it comes to practices such as Kundalini Yoga and the Microcosmic Orbit this is raising energy in the body as well, which is heat, but the focus of the problem here is no longer on heat but visualization. When we visualize we may delude ourselves more. Every occult tradition, Qigong method, meditative Yoga practice, New Age and holistic energy work I have practiced and read about all emphasize visualization- let us not forget hypnosis and NLP. Unless you are blind, do you really need to visualize? Seriously think about that.

We have the internet, nature, the day and night time sky, people with their own sense of style, and the list never ends; we are constantly bombarded by visual cues, even when we close our eyes! We survive by sight, so why is visualization so important? (Rhetorical question). The problem with visualization is that it can cause psychoses after a while as we are teaching our minds to see things that are in our heads and not actually part of the physical world (look at Ceremonial, especially summoning, magic and Psionic constructs- it's based a lot upon what you can clairvoyantly see) and after a while these mind pictures may start to take control leading to unhealthy behaviors like God-complex or prophetic delusions. This is not say clairvoyants or prophets are delusional (my opinion), but we should not seek the power if it is not already ours to begin with (I just punched myself in the face with that last sentence regarding our previous conversation!).

The reason why practices such as Kundalini were, and still are, important in India is because they are an agricultural people, meaning they are naturally grounded. They are knee deep in the earth, often literally, so the raising of Kundalini and moving Shakti throughout the body helps them balance Prana by ascending it up the spine, it is the same for the development of Jing, Qi and Shen in Daoist Alchemy and Shaolin Qi Gong. They are an agricultural people as well, hence the importance of raising energy from the Lower Dan Ti'en up and throughout the body, but in our modern culture as stated in the previous section, we are so much in our heads with all the talking over the phone, watching movies, pretty people gazing, reading and writing on this forum and such practices we need to ground the energy to be more balanced. We personally live in a society of desk jobs, visual and auditory entertainment, dealing with other people and their problems, questions and opinions (customer service) we often forget just to feel the body. Not listen to it, not visualizing healing white, green or gold light, but feeling the body. Emptying the mind, but not by concentrating on quieting thought (as thought is a mental head process) but feeling the breath and feelings in, on and around the body.

Magic and esoteric practices are very bad in Sifu's view because he believes it leads to negative karma and dealing with powers that are not ours to deal with in the first place. As he told me several times when I was questioning him about magic, the Gods have their world with their own lives to lead so we should stop bothering them. That is not to say an avatar won't come down here and there and light the way for us, but we should leave them be otherwise. It is in our karma to one day become Gods and Goddesses as they were once humans and will be again, and the Cycle continues. Once again, sometimes Deity calls to us and we should not ignore their call (my opinion) but seeking after their graces through ritual and especially through command just isn't good. They do answer and bless us with their presence and powers but it often comes with a price, such as opening other doors as well... when a door to the Celestial realms is open a door to the Lower realms open as well. Polarity, cause and effect, get used to it.

More on the Microcosmic Orbit, Chakras, Tummo and meditation. As mentioned prior raising heat and visualization can create mental, energetic and physical sickness, but if we do choose to stick to these practices we should remember to ground after words and stay away from visualization, not just because it is too much in the head but because our practices become easier. You can visualize the Microcosmic Orbit or balancing of the Chakras with all the colors, Yantras and what not, but it is useless until you actually feel the energy and its effects on your daily life. If they make you feel sick, depleted or lethargic, than stop. If you are vibrant and full of positive energy than continue. Sometimes we need to go through sickness, fatigue and emotional upsets on the spiritual journey, but this should be a caveat written at the beginning of the book if you do not have a teacher and if you do have a teacher, they should know how to remedy it or how long you need to go through it before progressing.

The raising of heat was, and is, important in Eastern culture because of geography and whether... we're talking about monks that live in ancient temples and only where robes, so the acquisition of internal heat is very important to them, but for many of us in the modern society we have jackets, insulated houses, heaters and partners, so the practice of raising heat really isn't so important, unless of course we plan on moving to Alaska or keeping dying traditions alive.

This is where delusion also comes in. You may be able to see red light coming out of your hands but if their is no heat the visualization is useless. You may see yourself covered in beautiful swirling lights and claim you have achieved the Rainbow Body but others simply view you as any mundane, than you are delusional.

I forgot to mention gathering. Briefly, when we gather Qi we are also building heat and even creating blockages and deviations within and around the body. External energy is not our own so it takes more effort to make it compatible with out energy signatures. Another reason why grounding is so important.

Sifu warns against magic the most as it opens negative spiritual doorways and leads to desire and attachment that turns into more karmic baggage and the attachment of parasitic and demonic entities to our auras and even to our loved ones. This is why I stopped practicing magic for several months after starting CFQ... it felt like I was literally being grabbed when I was releasing my blockages. It was scary... than I stopped CFQ until recently, but that's off topic.

By grounding we are pulling all of our previous karma (thoughts, actions and what not) we have not previously dealt with and send it down through our bodies into mother Earth. We clear our meridians, cool down our bodies, calm our minds, release blockages and heal deviations by this process.

I wrote a lot and probably missed even more, but I hope this answers you questions.
Title: Re: What is Jing?
Post by: mystic on February 08, 2013, 05:03:07 AM
Before I really give a full comment (according to my perspective and the perspectives of some other daoist paths)
What do you mean by grounding? What is your operational definition of grounding?
Title: Re: What is Jing?
Post by: Mind_Bender on February 08, 2013, 01:27:09 PM
By grounding I mean, (well, my Sifu) means to send all of your energy into the ground. Like I wrote, "By grounding we are pulling all of our previous karma (thoughts, actions and what not) we have not previously dealt with and send it down through our bodies into mother Earth. We clear our meridians, cool down our bodies, calm our minds, release blockages and heal deviations by this process."

Grounding (in this perspective) is emptying the body of stagnant Qi and karma. When we drop our Yin energy into the ground we automatically get filled with Yang energy, but this is not visualized nor stressed, it is just part of the grounding process in CFQ.

For example, when performing the first sequence of movements we let our hands hang loosely in front of the Lower Dan Ti'en (palms down) as if letting water drip off the wrists and fingers and pull the arms to our sides, arms close to the body, and extend the fingers forward opening the palm meridians and push down, a soft version of Fa Jing to release the energy downwards, through our legs, out our feet into the earth. Feeling, relaxing and getting in touch with the body is also what is meant by grounding in this particular system, as mentioned in the previous article there are no visualizations, intentions or gathering processes, just doing the movements in an empty mind and letting them do the work for us.
I understand this may be controversial.

Note: This is not a Daoist system by any means, it is closer to a Buddhist style as Master Yap is a Buddhist, but it has no religious connotations (honestly I hardly know the differnce between the two stykes of Qigong). Sifu learned it after his Daoist explorations.
Title: Re: What is Jing?
Post by: mystic on February 10, 2013, 05:56:15 AM
wait, so your master feels that karmas are such that they can be pushed into the ground and balanced? In spite of karma underlying the very fabric of reality and affecting most (if not all interactions) we do have with one another? That can be pushed aside?

Quote
Grounding (in this perspective) is emptying the body of stagnant Qi and karma.
...
Quote
When we drop our Yin energy into the ground we automatically get filled with Yang energy, but this is not visualized nor stressed, it is just part of the grounding process in CFQ.

The relationship isn't necessarily as simplistic as described here. Secondly, what makes you sure that
1. you are emptying karma
2. you are getting filled with yang qi?

For point one, doesn't that seem a lot like a mental barrier? such that it is an unrealistic representation of reality in and of itself?

In reference to point two, wouldn't that be bad according to your tradition? As indicated by:

Quote
When it comes to practices such as Zhan Zhuang and Da Cheng Chuan his reasons for them being bad are because the practice develops heat int he body, too much Wind interacting with the already Fiery kidney energy, creating a heat storm of sorts in the body. Fa Jing (which Bagua develops through what is called Whipping Spine- which is the Microcosmic Orbit in action), Iron Body, walking the Circle, simply, any martial art or athletic endeavor, develops intense internal energy which burns life force faster than normal if not properly cooled down by grounding. This heat is what develops internal power for striking, taking hits (Iron Body), and drive to succeed in sport and life, which is why it is important for the martial artist and athlete, but it also leads to aggressive behavior and may even lead to drinking and other problems outside of training. The heat raised during training is so intense on the kidneys that when the athlete is not training they need to supplement that heat with something else, hence alcohol consumption and sometimes heavier sexual appetites (passion, desire, sex, determination, fighting spirit are all Fire energies).

That's quite the contradiction when you think about it...

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This is not a Daoist system by any means, it is closer to a Buddhist style as Master Yap is a Buddhist, but it has no religious connotations (honestly I hardly know the differnce between the two stykes of Qigong). Sifu learned it after his Daoist explorations.

I don't think it is daoist or buddhist in nature. That sounds like no buddhist training I have ever heard of. Now that isn't to say there is a buddhist method I don't know, nor a daoist method I know intimately, but based on general flow of both traditions, they don't sound like either.
Title: Re: What is Jing?
Post by: Mind_Bender on February 10, 2013, 01:54:36 PM
First of all, I have no idea if this style really clears karma, I just know it helps me when I practice and second, I do not exactly believe in everything he tells me, I just know he has a good grasp on internal and external skill because of what he has showed me how to perform it through hands on application, and he is my first internal arts instructor.

According to the practice, It is not that grounding is what clears the karma but the pulling in all of our past karma into the body, feeling it in the body and releasing the stagnant energy into the ground.. basically, you are not grounding the karma just the energetic left overs, your body releases the karma by whatever means necessary, whether it is twitching, convulsing, laughing, farting, screaming, or whatever your body feels is proper for the release of stagnant energy and karma at least from my understanding.

When it comes to grounding the Yin Qi and being filled with Yang Qi it seems to be an automatic practice of any grounding method because you empty what is in your body and get filled because of the sphere that surrounds your body. Think of an air current blowing into water- the air presses into the water, causing the water to expand around the air current, the deeper the air goes into the water the bigger the sphere of water gets around the current, or the idea of a meteor striking the earth- but slower.

When heat is raised in the body it creates heat, when you ground you cool the body, I don't see the contradiction. Is it because he taught those methods to me yet warns against them?

I am unsure if the style really is 'Buddhist' I just know Master Yap is a Buddhist.
Title: Re: What is Jing?
Post by: mystic on February 15, 2013, 05:55:52 AM
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First of all, I have no idea if this style really clears karma,

it doesn't. Not a single practice alone can clear all internal and external karmas past and present.

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second, I do not exactly believe in everything he tells me, I just know he has a good grasp on internal and external skill because of what he has showed me how to perform it through hands on application, and he is my first internal arts instructor.

I'm kind of lost here. You don't believe him, but acknowledge he may have a good grasp of things internal and external? So how can he have both? Is this one of those multiple choice things or...

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According to the practice, It is not that grounding is what clears the karma but the pulling in all of our past karma into the body, feeling it in the body and releasing the stagnant energy into the ground.. basically, you are not grounding the karma just the energetic left overs, your body releases the karma by whatever means necessary, whether it is twitching, convulsing, laughing, farting, screaming, or whatever your body feels is proper for the release of stagnant energy and karma at least from my understanding.

But what is to say that is doing anything but balancing kidney yin and yang? In some respects it seems you are using karma to denote aspects of body and mind (experiences) that one hold back. And while that can contribute to karmic stock, it doesn't dissolve all burdens and karmas of the past. In addition, it isn't the grounding that seems to have the effect. But the letting go, relaxation, and detachment that aides the body in finding the peace, thus releasing karma.

But what do I know?

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When it comes to grounding the Yin Qi and being filled with Yang Qi it seems to be an automatic practice of any grounding method because you empty what is in your body and get filled because of the sphere that surrounds your body. Think of an air current blowing into water- the air presses into the water, causing the water to expand around the air current, the deeper the air goes into the water the bigger the sphere of water gets around the current, or the idea of a meteor striking the earth- but slower.

Sadly, not how it works in the noble paths which have a pretty accurate description especially in the nei gong phase. None of that is happening til you meditate. And even then, you aren't meditating and storing yin and yang. Only one. The duality that has been expressed throughout the ages is a misnomer; one that has been gone through actually in depth by the magus of java. But even then, there are some inaccuracies (crafty John Chang). But for a general idea, it is actually a good resource. In terms of the paths that escape reincarnation. Which ultimately is what Dao is supposed to accomplish to begin with.

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When heat is raised in the body it creates heat, when you ground you cool the body, I don't see the contradiction.

Or the heat returns to the kidneys promoting balance? Which would be the prevalent mechanism that is occurring....
Title: Re: What is Jing?
Post by: Mind_Bender on February 15, 2013, 01:03:09 PM
"second, I do not exactly believe in everything he tells me, I just know he has a good grasp on internal and external skill because of what he has showed me how to perform it through hands on application, and he is my first internal arts instructor.

I'm kind of lost here. You don't believe him, but acknowledge he may have a good grasp of things internal and external? So how can he have both? Is this one of those multiple choice things or..."


I only question the validity of CFQ specifically, when it comes to Bagua and medical qigong I have no doubts about his skill and knowledge at all, like I said, I have seen and felt results.

"But the letting go, relaxation, and detachment that aides the body in finding the peace, thus releasing karma."

That is part of what is meant by grounding- getting in touch with the body.

"When heat is raised in the body it creates heat, when you ground you cool the body, I don't see the contradiction.

Or the heat returns to the kidneys promoting balance? Which would be the prevalent mechanism that is occurring
...."

Maybe that is what is happening, I'm new to this whole qigong thing under an actual instructor. I'm more intuitive with my flow of energy.

You obviously have a greater knowledge of the internal arts, and I am not trying to argue, this is just the way I was taught.

"When it comes to grounding the Yin Qi and being filled with Yang Qi it seems to be an automatic practice of any grounding method because you empty what is in your body and get filled because of the sphere that surrounds your body."

So, I may be wrong about filling with Yang Qi, but I have had results in feeling my 'energy bubble' around my body with higher awareness of my immediate surroundings after grounding practice... which I thought resulted from Yang Qi... but I'm new all of this.
Title: Re: What is Jing?
Post by: Aunt Clair on May 24, 2013, 11:04:30 PM
First, thank you ,Koujiryuu, for presenting this information from a scholarly perspective. And thank you forum for bumping this old thread. Second, as a Hermetic Alchemist, I have a different perspective to present which complements some points and contradicts other points made here;

First and foremost, there is more than one type of Jing. Now, Jing means "essence" in Chinese, though it could also be "force" or "internal power". It is the sexual force, and a component of your soul. Mystic was right, Jing is affected in many ways, including sexual activity, diet, stress, and balance of the energy system.

I agree and would add that Jing is also affected by ;

energy flow; with breath control, will and muscle locks such as the maha banda the energy is moved at will.

exercise; tai chi, kundalini yoga , martial arts

use; with daily energy work especially up and down the spine,the body is improved and the human energy body develops quickly

experience and pathworking;  ascension alchemy and martial arts for example
predictable continuum of development of adjacent centres; like the physical body the development occurs along a continuum and can not accede the growth of required adjacent centres which afford the ripening of adjacent tan tiens and the ascension of the vibration of energy in that human energy body

attunements;kundalini and shaktipat for example. Kundalini is a reciprocal flow inward which occurs whenever the body builds up a suitable vibration to trigger it like lightning. The magickian/martial artist may increase or decrease kundalini through breath , activity , muscle locks, meditation , projection and martial art exercise.

JING/CHING is AIR
Jing is also called Ching and it is air energy,Hermetically. It does not occur until the core energy centre manifests between the red and orange chakras. Between each pair of vertical chakras a nebulous cloud of energy forms in the human energy body eventually forming a core or centre chakra . The tan tien connects to and engorges this nebula . The treasures of each tan tien are found as the seed in the centre of an apple. The treasures are cultivated in this cauldron and are a supreme energy in exact reciprocal nature to the cauldron in which they are cultivated. Jing then begins as a lower grade air which is clairvoyantly chartreuse green being the reciprocal of the salmon coloured EarthStone. Air is cool , light in weight, dim to bright, damp, passive, positive, female energy which is lifting and envigorating. It repels reciprocal earth energy and it takes on heat from fire and cold from water energies.

THREE STONES CONNECTED WITH TAN TIENS
The magickian/martial artist is born with seven spinal chakras nestled in three stones; the head or moon, the chest or sun and the belly or earth. These are connected through the spine or Tree of Life through a subtle energy body network. The subtle energy tubes which connect the centre or cores of these stones are called tan tiens or dan tiens. The energy of the human energy body steps up and steps down in vibration by moving through the subtle energy body structures. That is neutral prana which lies in the red chakra will become imbibed with earth energy and when moved to the green chakra , it will become imbibed with air energy.

QUANTIFIABLE MEASUREMENT AND ASSESSMENT
The 'treasure' Jing becomes emerald green subsequent to the EarthStone becoming ruby red. Treasures are the purposely cultivated basal energies improved by the development of the human energy body. As the vibration of an energy increases or ascends than it clairsentiently feels more powerful in its flow and surge and it can be seen clairvoyantly to change in colour and it can be heard clairaudiently to change in sound, too .Jing is typically absent at birth and becomes white as it begins, then chartreuse green then emerald green like the Emerald Tablet .

TREASURE OF TAN TIENS
Jing is the 'treasure' of the lower tan tien. It is cultivated in the male cauldron or EarthStone and will be a supreme Air energy affording lift in astral projection from the physical body and  power in the Martial Arts. It can not be cultivated until the tube structures called tan tiens are manifested. The mapping or unfolding of all structures in the human energy body is latent at birth. The magician/ martial artist develops these with use, flow and attunements.

GREEN ANGEL OF THE HERMETIC SPHINX ;CONSCIOUSNESS OF ASCENSION
JING is THE energy of alchemical ascension. It is the colour of the angel of the Hermetic Sphinx and anchors the consciousness of the magickian/martial artist into the form called the Guardian Angel and begins the pathworking of angelic consciousness by connecting oneself to the Higher Self.
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As far as alchemy is concerned, there is a separation of the bodies' different forces. The goal of alchemy (per The Secret of the Golden Flower) is to reunify these forces before developing Shen.
Shen is fire and there is a similar term in Hebrew Kaballah. Shen is the treasure of the head which is called the upper tan tien, the female tan tien and the MoonStone. The stones are not tan tiens, the stones include two chakras, two tubes connected at the core centre between the two chakras called a cauldron. The lower tube is called a tan tien. The treasure of the tan tien is always a reciprocal energy. So the treasure of the cold wet watery MoonStone is a hot golden fire which affords clairvoyance. Some have this treasure at birth all can cultivate it. It is more correct to say that all have a modicum at least of clairvoyance at birth . All can dream. The dreams may be at a basal state flat black and white or at a ascended state; colourful, 3D and lucid. All can see at least in dreams . Most can see in projection. And even the clairvoyantly blind can see in dreamstate the spirit of a loved one approaching at the end of the bed, by the pillow, in the tub , or in the dream itself. All can learn to see and this is best done through the cultivation of shen and daily practice in dim light in meditation with the physical eyes closed taking the consciousness to the centre of the forehead dwelling there and peering through this energy body structure called the third eye. This is activated by the pineal gland at the back of the brain which becomes flaccid in bright sunlight and erect in dim light.

Shen like Jing begins pale white some call this sperm of the energy body and call this male and female sperm. It becomes pale yellow when it has taken on fire. Then it becomes bright yellow and finally golden in hue clairvoyantly. We want the golden shen. This affords clairvoyance at will which can be tuned in or tuned out at will. Shen is hot, dry , bright, positive, active, light in weight, electric male fire energy.It is the reciprocal of the watery state of the upper female tan tien which is the lower tube ascending from the throat to the core centre between the blue and indigo chakras. This upper tan tien is a vital part of the Tree of Life which will, in time with development connect to the middle tan tien which will connect to the lower tan tien. It is more correct to say that these structures are connected in a primitive fashion but the flow between them occurs when the tiny valves within them are activated by muscles, breath, visualisation, will and specific energies. But it is true that the sheaths within these tubes change becoming nested and multicoloured and more capable in use , more sophisticated in function than the state at birth.

The magickian/martial artist is capable of carrying or uploading their subtle energy body pattern into the concurrent and subsequent incarnations it is like a program in the tiny DNA . I call this a spiritual DNA but more correctly it should be called a metaphysical DNA as it occurs in the absence of one's belief system. It is the soul imprint but that soul exists even when it is spiritually retarded. It is not one's belief in God that improves the networking and power of the soul's imprint. But it is their actions, thoughts, communications and pathworking that changes that. The soul is improved by connection to Godhead but all paths lead to God eventually. I have met atheists who recall no dream, no past life, no aspiration, no hope of eternal afterlife. And yet I have witnessed their angelic form project from them and work in service of humanity. This baffles me. I believe that their higher concurrent lives are ascended and that this is a lower vessel on their soul group who may profess ignorance in the waking state but who in the dreamstate is enlightening themselves and serving humanity  to awaken through shamynic inspiration, healing and attuning.


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Neiqi (original Qi; the Qi you are born with, not that which you have gained or lost through life) resides in the Middle Dantien in the heart. Neijing (your soul; the original life force; your true essence) resides in the Lower Dantien and is separate from Jing gained or lost in life; yet Neijing is the root of Jing. Through the microcosmic orbit, zhan zhuang, certain Taiji forms, and meditation with a right mind, the Neiqi is sunk down the conception vessel from the Middle Dantien to the Lower Dantien and reunified with Neijing. So, you bring the original breath of life to the original primordial force-essence, where they unify and produce a cosmic body.
I believe in the efficacy of the microcosmic orbit and have practiced this myself. However I do not think it is as complicated as this author suggests. Moving energy from the crown to the perineum and reversing this flow from perineum to crown daily will afford all desired connectivity. As the subtle body structures improve vibration and develop in sophistication of function it remains vital to continue to effect flow up and down through the spinal Tree of Life to envigorate it and maintain 'wick' and to afford optimum further development.
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Before this process happens, any and all Qigong will only affect your Qi; you basically cannot produce Jing faster than you expend it without unifying Neiqi and Neijing. The process of sinking the Neiqi, and Qi, takes anywhere from one to five years depending on the individual.
No. I disagree. This ignores the fact that individuals are born at diverse levels of human energy body development. And that being born conscious of this or accepting of this as a goal will have already attained this state or are capable of attaining this in less than a year. I would say that this is done in as little as 6 weeks if that person was not born in that state.

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You are correct in stating that Jing is produced by the bone marrow. However, like mystic stated, doing Marrow Washing exercises alone will not produce Jing. It is only from a combination of Marrow Washing Qigong, microcosmic orbit, zhan zhuang, Taiqi, meditation, and a great deal of self-restraint and good diet choices over many years that Jing develops.
 No. The bone marrow is not the producer of Jing. Jing is produced by the energy body itself. If this was not so than the consciousness could not continue to exist or become further enlightened after death of the body and becoming devoid of bones. The spirit and the surviving consciousness do not require bones.

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Furthermore, there is an old Taiqi adage that applies here."You can feel your Qi, but your opponent cannot. You can't feel your Jing, but your opponent can." Some Taoist alchemists will assert that we must develop all treasures and be able to see these and feel these. Mantak Chia is of this accord as are others that the upper tan tien develops the brain , the middle tan tien develops the heart and the lower tan tien develops the womb. Mantak Chia says the alchemist must develop the brain , heart and womb in each cauldron. This is correct.
Where the body has only earth we must bring fire, water and air . Where the body has only one fruit we must bring forth a bounty of fruits.

Fire is light; to see and heat; to warm and to heal
Air is lift; to fly and sound; to hear
Water is fluid; to flow and cold; to heal and to cool
Earth is heavy; to ground and anchor is dark; to hide and dense ; to shield

The Taoist Alchemists strives to produce a baby without a female partner. This baby will be felt being born from the energy body of the alchemist and will be a suitable vessel for the uploading of their soul's imprint or spiritual DNA.

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Jing is not a force you can feel. It only manifests itself martially when the proper technique is applied with the correct intention, and when Neiqi has been sunk to the Lower Dantien. The center of the body, the cinnabar elixir field, is the root of Jing; not your bones. Jing cannot be manipulated or felt. It is invisible.
Jing can be seen and felt and heard. It can be pulled up at will by use of maha banda locks, breath, will and visualisation; after its cultivation.It is not invisible it can be seen in or out of the body with clairvoyance.

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Again, someone thinks that Jing is compressed Qi or that Jing needs to be compressed. This is not true. Jing is the force-essence that is created over a long time of practicing Qigong (particularly Zhan Zhuang). It has nothing to do with compression. You cannot compress that which cannot be felt or controlled; trying to is like trying to grab the wind..Jing is not compressed Qi.
It can be concentrated and made stronger , bolder , more capable. This occurs through use, flow, pathworking, exercise, and attunements. There is an inherent difference in the quality of pale white Jing and emerald green Jing. White is inferior but promising. Jing is superior and delivering. Qi/Chi is not Jing at all. It is Water energy which is female,cold,wet,negative, passive,magnetic energy. Energy can be stepped up or down and become another vibration and take on the qualities of that vibration like frequencies on an EMR or a tuner finding a station on a radio;
 
Air  highest vibration; white, greens cool, damp, positive, lightest in weight, lifting, raising vibration of other energies, healing, projecting, ascending consciousness; ruby red 'XIE' supernal HeavenStone

Water lowering vibration; blues, purples, wettest, coldest, dark, negative, cooling, carrying , flow QI/CHI

Fire raising vibration; yellow, orange, golden, hottest, driest, positive, light in weight,brightest in light,  SHEN

Earth lowest vibration;browns, reds, moist darkest, heaviest, negative grounding shielding hiding male energy JING/CHING

Supernal green  air      Heaven    ruby         earth  Philosophers' Xie
head       blue    water Moon       golden      fire     Shen
chest      yellow fire     Sun         sapphire   water  Chi/Qi
belly       red     earth   Earth       emerald    air      Ching/JING

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wikipedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jing_%28TCM%29):
Jīng (Chinese: 精; Wade-Giles: ching) is the Chinese word for "essence", specifically kidney essence. Along with qì and shén, it is considered one of the Three Treasures Sanbao 三寶 of Traditional Chinese Medicine or TCM. According to tradition, Jīng is stored in the kidneys and is the most dense physical matter within the body (as opposed to shén which is the most volatile).
Although the bones and organs are affected by the treasures it is clumsy and inexact to say that these are produced or stored in the physical body these are the essences of the subtle energies in the human energy body. Jing is air it is formed in the densest energy earth but it is not earth it is the reciprocal of it.  

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It is said to be the material basis for the physical body and is yīn in nature, which means it nourishes, fuels, and cools the body.
Hermetically yin is female; water and air. Yang is male; fire and earth.

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As such it is an important concept in the internal martial arts. Jīng is also believed by some to be the carrier of our heritage (similar to DNA). Production of semen, in the man, and menstrual blood (or pregnancy), in the woman, are believed to place the biggest strains on jīng. Because of this, some even equate jīng with semen, but this is inaccurate; the jīng circulates through the 8 extraordinary vessels and creates marrow and semen, among other functions.
8 Extraordinary Vessels ;  http://www.aardvarksfly.com/files/CHFOUR8.31PDF.pdf
The placement of the vessels at shoulders,abdomen and perineum coincide with the some of the sepiroth of the Tree of Life. These are smaller energy centres which can become clairvoyantly visible like the chakras but are the size of olives to plums whereas the chakras are mandarins to basketball in size. The energy centres at the wrist are minor and not depicted on the spinal chakras of course or on the spheres of the Tree of Life.
http://www.google.com.au/imgres?sa=X&biw=452&bih=263&tbm=isch&tbnid=qBBZFT3PxMEJCM:&imgrefurl=http://www.docstoc.com/docs/23249931/Five-Breaths-to-Unblock-Eight-Vessels&docid=gGXGGjB7RS4yKM&imgurl=http://img.docstoccdn.com/thumb/orig/23249931.png&w=1275&h=1650&ei=UFegUeOzBca6lQXA6IDwAQ&zoom=1&ved=1t:3588,r:36,s:0,i:198&iact=rc&dur=1502&page=5&tbnh=167&tbnw=142&start=34&ndsp=9&tx=57&ty=67

The female sperm and the male womb are  names for this energy that is white blue and in appearance like weak breast milk or semen the male womb is the lower cauldron which produces the vessel to contain the imprint made in the seminal flow . The female semen is a form of water or Qi. The male womb is a dense protective form of earth in the belly of male or female humans.

Jing is not made by foods. Early Hermeticists felt the same that temperaments were influenced by energies which were influenced by foods. Today the temperaments such as choleric and sanguineare found to be improved by energy flow, use, pathworking, service, actions and thoughts not foods.

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So, then, how do we truly define Jing?...It is impacted negatively by stress, sex and diet.
What isn't negatively impacted by stress? Sex is both positive and negative reducing stress and heightening pleasure and self worth but perhaps enacting rage, lust, std/vd,and reducing self worth.
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It can be bolstered by certain Qigong forms, teas, herbs, meditation, proper sleep, and an overall healthy lifestyle.
As above, these are influences positive and negative over many attributes of life and do not define Jing production or depletion, per se.
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It is derived from Qi and for the purposes of the martial arts, led by Qi. You cannot feel or directly manipulate your Jing in the same manner as your Qi.
Jing is developed by the cauldron occurring between the orange and red chakras. It is fed with energy flowing upwards from the perineum to the naval through a subtle body structure called the lower tan tien or male tan tien. It is also fed from a reciprocal tube or tan tien flowing down from the middle tan tien from the SunStone. Qi is water energy or flow which moves and carries energies.

There are two main plates of energies at birth . These occur on the scalp and the perineum. The upper one is female in nature and moves energy downward from the upper os and from the purple chakra to the red chakra. It is called the Crown of the Goddess. It has a bundle of nadis within it called a kanda /candle. The lower one is male in nature and moves energy upward from the lower os to the red earth stone up towards the green heaven stone. There is a bundle of nadis within it called a kanda/candle these diverge into three primary channels; Pingali, Ida and Sushumna. Like the stones of earth, fire and water, air is missing. So too in the nadis there is father sun yellow fire, mother moon blue water, and prince blood pink earth but air is missing. Air is not the philosopher stone however. Air is the supernal Heavenstone which yields the ruby red treasure which has been called Xie for gratitude. It affords connection to Godhead , UnioMystica and the writing of the imprint of the soul's  spiritual dna throgh the immortal rainbow energy body. It is "under the earth" that we find that.

There is an infernal stone which occurs under the physical earth beneath the feet of the magickian/martial artist it is on the head of the hanged man and that has another treasure;
heaven supernal air treasure earth 'Xie' precursor of the Philosopher Stone
moon head water treasure fire Shen
sun  head fire  treasure water Qi
earth belly earth treasure air Jing
golden bowl below feet infernal.sun......................moon.akasha Philosopher's Stone

The feet of the Hanged Man or infernal tree open and close an ouroborous. The silver dome of the physical cranium connects with the golden bowl of the hanged man's head. When open this is linear and the magickian is tuned out  and grounded. When closed this is circular and the magickian is connected , switched on , tuned in. The magickian learns to connect this at will with what Alister Crowley called the black cube. There are two cubic structures a white and silver one and a black and gold one. Like magnets these may turn and repel each other and cause  the circuit to be turned off or they may turn another way and cause the circuit to close and become connected and switched on.

The gaining of the Philosopher's Stone is the ability to open and close the ouroborous at will lengthening the circuit and widening it with development so that the spiritual DNA is imprinted by the soul on the subsequent incarnations and so that the soul is magnified on its route to enlightenment. This causes the magickian to be able to feel clairsentiently, to see clairvoyantly, to hear clairaudiently, to fly in projection and to manifest with control at will.

This is not the panacea though. Life gives us trials and tribulations which the Buddhists monks and nuns see as joy. A full plate of suffering provides a life of learning and cleansing of negative karma. We have been taught that the enlightened do not suffer. Enlightenment is an infinite and eternal path full of woe. Those who lack compassion do not hear the cries of the world and are not moved and are by definition not enlightened.

Qi does lead Jing.It leads all.

Thank you for this thought provoking thread.
Title: Re: What is Jing?
Post by: Aunt Clair on May 24, 2013, 11:52:21 PM
Dao (Tao) is the empty force, stillness, static, literally the 'Way' ('do' [pronounced doh] in Japanese). It is the beginning and end of all life and existence. If Jing is the battery, Qi the electric current and Shen the electrician, then what is Dao? What is Dao? I'll leave that to the Immortals! (Not so funny) humor aside, it is the state in which we flow, act, react and 'let go' and are non-attached. It may or may not be related to the Sahasrara Chakra (Wheel of a Thousand Lotus Petals), at the tip of the head (Pa Hui). It's element is all and none, but can be comprehended as Unity or Connection and represents Divine connection, prophecy, Enlightenment. When this Chakra is fully open all other Chakras are open and flowing smoothly, creating what the Vajra Buddhists call the Rainbow Body, and others refer to as Liberation, Enlightenment, Conversation with the Holy Guardian Angel, Sainthood, etc.There are many complicated explanations of Jing, QI, Shen and Dao related to organs, Yin-Yang and the Five Elements Theory...

This defines the treasure of the supernal tan tien which has been called Xie or gratitude connectivity to Godhead, unio mystica, self realization, manifestation, preparation of the immortal rainbow body and the precursor of the Philosopher's Stone. I am certain that
Jing is emerald green noble air energy
Qi is sapphire blue noble water energy
Shen is golden noble fire energy
I feel that Dao/Tao is the same as Xie a ruby red noble earth energy cultivated above the crown, at least by the above definition. However I would have said that Tao is the path and not the supernal treasure but the path to it. Now I am confused by your definition and will seek to research the terms, more.

When you learn to let go of the whole idea of Enlightenment- it is hogwash- you are much better off for it...There is no need to be excited about ideas like Qi, Jing, Shen, Dao, Brahma, Kundalini, 5 Elements, Enlightenment...none of this matters. It disrupts your balance and leads to delusion. Just center yourself and live your life. Do good and love others. Meditate and become your true Self. That's all you need.
From reading the rest of your text, I doubt that you meant to diminish enlightenment as hogwash.
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It is said that Jing turns to Qi, Qi turns to Shen, and Shen returns to nothingness.
Energy can be stepped up or down , transformed to a higher or lower vibration.
Jing is the lowest and earth, Qi is water in the middle of the body and middle in vibration, Shen is higher on the body and highest in vibration it is fire. Above Shen is Dao in supernal energy centres that blossom or manifest after pathworking begins. There is nothingness there but it becomes something. The chakras are in pairs in three centres the 7th chakra is crowning the Tree of Life and it manifests the supernal canopy out of the "nothing" above each head;
violet & nothing Air supernal treasure Earth Xie / Dao / Tao
blue & indigo Water head Treasure Fire Shen
yellow & green Fire chest Treasure Water Qi
orange& red Earth belly Treasure Air Jing



When it comes to practices such as Kundalini Yoga and the Microcosmic Orbit this is raising energy in the body as well, which is heat, but the focus of the problem here is no longer on heat but visualization. When we visualize we may delude ourselves more. Every occult tradition, Qigong method, meditative Yoga practice, New Age and holistic energy work I have practiced and read about all emphasize visualization- let us not forget hypnosis and NLP. Unless you are blind, do you really need to visualize? Seriously think about that.

We have the internet, nature, the day and night time sky, people with their own sense of style, and the list never ends; we are constantly bombarded by visual cues, even when we close our eyes! We survive by sight, so why is visualization so important? (Rhetorical question). The problem with visualization is that it can cause psychoses after a while as we are teaching our minds to see things that are in our heads and not actually part of the physical world (look at Ceremonial, especially summoning, magic and Psionic constructs- it's based a lot upon what you can clairvoyantly see) and after a while these mind pictures may start to take control leading to unhealthy behaviors like God-complex or prophetic delusions. This is not say clairvoyants or prophets are delusional (my opinion), but we should not seek the power if it is not already ours to begin with (I just punched myself in the face with that last sentence regarding our previous conversation!).

The reason why practices such as Kundalini were, and still are, important in India is because they are an agricultural people, meaning they are naturally grounded. They are knee deep in the earth, often literally, so the raising of Kundalini and moving Shakti throughout the body helps them balance Prana by ascending it up the spine, it is the same for the development of Jing, Qi and Shen in Daoist Alchemy and Shaolin Qi Gong. They are an agricultural people as well, hence the importance of raising energy from the Lower Dan Ti'en up and throughout the body, but in our modern culture as stated in the previous section, we are so much in our heads with all the talking over the phone, watching movies, pretty people gazing, reading and writing on this forum and such practices we need to ground the energy to be more balanced. We personally live in a society of desk jobs, visual and auditory entertainment, dealing with other people and their problems, questions and opinions (customer service) we often forget just to feel the body. Not listen to it, not visualizing healing white, green or gold light, but feeling the body. Emptying the mind, but not by concentrating on quieting thought (as thought is a mental head process) but feeling the breath and feelings in, on and around the body.

Magic and esoteric practices are very bad in Sifu's view because he believes it leads to negative karma and dealing with powers that are not ours to deal with in the first place. As he told me several times when I was questioning him about magic, the Gods have their world with their own lives to lead so we should stop bothering them. That is not to say an avatar won't come down here and there and light the way for us, but we should leave them be otherwise. It is in our karma to one day become Gods and Goddesses as they were once humans and will be again, and the Cycle continues. Once again, sometimes Deity calls to us and we should not ignore their call (my opinion) but seeking after their graces through ritual and especially through command just isn't good. They do answer and bless us with their presence and powers but it often comes with a price, such as opening other doors as well... when a door to the Celestial realms is open a door to the Lower realms open as well. Polarity, cause and effect, get used to it.
Magick is the raison detre it is the point of life to learn to be and to become as the Godhead, benevolent, compassionate, protective, nurturing, inspirational and serving the children of earth. It is not a trap but an outlet to fly from the body at will to travel the realms and the dreamstate. It is not an impediment or anchor , magick is an eternal candle. Kundalini is the candle for all humanity not just those agricultural workers in India as you profess. It is the noble reciprocal force that enters the body to raise its vibration. Kundalini is not one way and one elemental. In time it becomes water and air kundalini. It does not only ascend from perineum to crown up the spine, it will in time descend the spine in sheets of water energy and envigorate each limb, also.

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Sifu warns against magic the most as it opens negative spiritual doorways and leads to desire and attachment that turns into more karmic baggage and the attachment of parasitic and demonic entities to our auras and even to our loved ones.

Magick is a pathworking which increases the vibration affording greater protection against demons and lending itself to the banishing and exorcism of these from others, in service.
Title: Re: What is Jing?
Post by: Koujiryuu on May 25, 2013, 12:19:32 AM
Aunt Clair, I respect your experience and reply.

However, considering it's very late, I am only going to selectively reply to what you have written, as it's VERY long and replying to everything would take me two hours.

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First, thank you for presenting this information from a scholarly perspective.
Second, as a Hermetic Alchemist, I have a different perspective to present which complements some points and contradicts other points made here;

Of course it would be scholarly. However, be aware that this isn't the magick forums, it's Body Energy Arts, so my standpoints come from that of a practicing Daoist and martial artist with a lifelong interest in these things. Hermetics doesn't really mean much here.

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...energy flow; with breath control, will and muscle locks such as the maha banda the energy is moved at will.

exercise; tai chi, kundalini yoga , martial arts

use; with daily energy work especially up and down the spine,the body is improved and the human energy body develops quickly

experience and pathworking;  ascension alchemy and martial arts for example
predictable continuum of development of adjacent centres; like the physical body the development occurs along a continuum and can not accede the growth of required adjacent centres which afford the ripening of adjacent tan tiens and the ascension of the vibration of energy in that human energy body

attunements;kundalini and shaktipat for example. Kundalini is a reciprocal flow inward which occurs whenever the body builds up a suitable vibration to trigger it like lightning. The magickian/martial artist may increase or decrease kundalini through breath , activity , muscle locks, meditation , projection and martial art exercise....

All of this is correct and I agree.

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Shen is fire and there is a similar term in Hebrew Kaballah. Shen is the treasure of the head which is called the upper tan tien, the female tan tien and the MoonStone. The stones are not tan tiens, the stones include two chakras, two tubes connected at the core centre between the two chakras called a cauldron. The lower tube is called a tan tien. The treasure of the tan tien is always a reciprocal energy. So the treasure of the cold wet watery MoonStone is a hot golden fire which affords clairvoyance. Some have this treasure at birth all can cultivate it. It is more correct to say that all have a modicum at least of clairvoyance at birth . All can dream. The dreams may be at a basal state flat black and white or at a ascended state; colourful, 3D and lucid. All can see at least in dreams . Most can see in projection. And even the clairvoyantly blind can see in dreamstate the spirit of a loved one approaching at the end of the bed, by the pillow, in the tub , or in the dream itself. All can learn to see and this is best done through the cultivation of shen and daily practice in dim light in meditation with the physical eyes closed taking the consciousness to the centre of the forehead dwelling there and peering through this energy body structure called the third eye. This is activated by the pineal gland at the back of the brain which becomes flaccid in bright sunlight and erect in dim light.

This is all mostly correct; Shen is the spirit-mind located in the head (pineal gland) and the root of clairvoyance.

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Shen like Jing begins pale white some call this sperm of the energy body and call this male and female sperm. It becomes pale yellow when it has taken on fire. Then it becomes bright yellow and finally golden in hue clairvoyantly. We want the golden shen. This affords clairvoyance at will which can be tuned in or tuned out at will. Shen is hot, dry , bright, positive, active, light in weight, electric male fire energy.It is the reciprocal of the watery state of the upper female tan tien which is the lower tube ascending from the throat to the core centre between the blue and indigo chakras. This upper tan tien is a vital part of the Tree of Life which will, in time with development connect to the middle tan tien which will connect to the lower tan tien. It is more correct to say that these structures are connected in a primitive fashion but the flow between them occurs when the tiny valves within them are activated by muscles, breath, visualisation, will and specific energies. But it is true that the sheaths within these tubes change becoming nested and multicoloured and more capable in use , more sophisticated in function than the state at birth.

This is essentially correct.

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The magickian/martial artist is capable of carrying or uploading their subtle energy body pattern into the concurrent and subsequent incarnations it is like a program in the tiny DNA . I call this a spiritual DNA but more correctly it should be called a metaphysical DNA as it occurs in the absence of one's belief system. It is the soul imprint but that soul exists even when it is spiritually retarded. It is not one's belief in God that improves the networking and power of the soul's imprint. But it is their actions, thoughts, communications and pathworking that changes that. The soul is improved by connection to Godhead but all paths lead to God eventually. I have met atheists who recall no dream, no past life, no aspiration, no hope of eternal afterlife. And yet I have witnessed their angelic form project from them and work in service of humanity. This baffles me. I believe that their higher concurrent lives are ascended and that this is a lower vessel on their soul group who may profess ignorance in the waking state but who in the dreamstate is enlightening themselves and serving humanity  to awaken through shamynic inspiration, healing and attuning.

This is where you're getting way off the mark and into oddball territory. This, to me, screams "new age bile". Jing, Qi and Shen have been around as ideas and used by the Daoists for thousands of years. It is only in the last hundred years that DNA has even been known to exist. The idea of the Daoist Three Treasures and Alchemy has existed for many thousands of years without the idea of DNA activation, etc. It's basically hogwash and can't be proven. It is easy for any Qigong stylist, internal martial artist and so on to rationalize and accept the Three Treasures as being true. It is quite difficult to prove them scientifically, but the effects of something like Qigong can be measured, so Qi can be measured. Something that applies Jing indirectly like Fa Jing (emitting power), or the One-Inch Punch of Bruce Lee can be analysed and essentially proven. Things dealing with Shen, such as remote viewing, have been scientifically tested and proven to be true. So, in this way we see that it is possible to prove them all individually, which essentially proves them all as a coherent theory, and a method of self development. However, when you get into things like DNA, claiming that we evolve to have 25 strands of DNA, and other New Age theories that deal with this, there is no rational basis to them and no way of proving them. You show me a New Ager that claims he has X many strans of DNA, and we can give him a blood test, and I guarantee that DNA will be a 2 strand double helix. I'm not a molecular biologist either, just a bullshit sniffer.

As mystic said, Jing does have an effect on cell growth, and he claims that each cell in the body possesses Jing. I would tend to agree with this- however, I don't believe any sort of alchemical process can lead to "evolving DNA".

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I believe in the efficacy of the microcosmic orbit and have practiced this myself. However I do not think it is as complicated as this author suggests. Moving energy from the crown to the perineum and reversing this flow from perineum to crown daily will afford all desired connectivity. As the subtle body structures improve vibration and develop in sophistication of function it remains vital to continue to effect flow up and down through the spinal Tree of Life to envigorate it and maintain 'wick' and to afford optimum further development.

It is a paradox. Something can be two things at once, no? It is at once simple to learn, yet difficult to master. The truth lies in texts like "The Secret of the Golden Flower". If it didn't have some level of complexity and underlying secret, it wouldn't have a whole ancient text dedicated solely to it.

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Before this process happens, any and all Qigong will only affect your Qi; you basically cannot produce Jing faster than you expend it without unifying Neiqi and Neijing. The process of sinking the Neiqi, and Qi, takes anywhere from one to five years depending on the individual.

No. I disagree. This ignores the fact that individuals are born at diverse levels of human energy body development. And that being born conscious of this or accepting of this as a goal will have already attained this state or are capable of attaining this in less than a year. I would say that this is done in as little as 6 weeks if that person was not born in that state.

For some, it is easy. For me, I was able to sink my Qi into the Dantian after about six months of practice, and begin to practice the MCO. This is just a general timeframe. For most people to truly feel their Qi, usually takes at least 3 months of meditation daily. It took me that long to really feel it, and not be working entirely with tactile feedback. Regardless, I am going to have to admit that to some degree you're right- my study group goes from very basic Qigong to the microcosmic orbit in six weeks. If I had my way, it would take much longer to get that far, and we'd probably spend at least 6 weeks just feeling out our Qi alone. Ultimately, rushing things leads to a poor practitioner- and especially nowadays, overimagination and delusion. A lot of people think they are working with energy when they are just simulating the feel of something in the body. This is tactile feedback. If this stuff were all as easy as you claim, real Buddhist and Daoist monks in China wouldn't spend years in training Qigong alone. These kinds of things take even MORE time and dedication if you get into something like Iron Palm or Iron Shirt (Yi Jin Jing), which can take years to achieve, and are very dangerous and injury prone.

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No. The bone marrow is not the producer of Jing. Jing is produced by the energy body itself. If this was not so than the consciousness could not continue to exist or become further enlightened after death of the body and becoming devoid of bones. The spirit and the surviving consciousness do not require bones.

Furthermore, there is an old Taiqi adage that applies here."You can feel your Qi, but your opponent cannot. You can't feel your Jing, but your opponent can." Some Taoist alchemists will assert that we must develop all treasures and be able to see these and feel these. Mantak Chia is of this accord as are others that the upper tan tien develops the brain , the middle tan tien develops the heart and the lower tan tien develops the womb. Mantak Chia says the alchemist must develop the brain , heart and womb in each cauldron. This is correct.
Where the body has only earth we must bring fire, water and air . Where the body has only one fruit we must bring forth a bounty of fruits.

Fire is light; to see and heat; to warm and to heal
Air is lift; to fly and sound; to hear
Water is fluid; to flow and cold; to heal and to cool
Earth is heavy; to ground and anchor is dark; to hide and dense ; to shield

The Taoist Alchemists strives to produce a baby without a female partner. This baby will be felt being born from the energy body of the alchemist and will be a suitable vessel for the uploading of their soul's imprint or spiritual DNA.

The Bone Marrow and Kidneys (gonads) are the producers of Jing. This is what traditional Chinese Medicine believes. It is also what my study has taught me. To anyone else reading this, you can believe Aunt Clair if you want. However, she's wrong.

That adage you posted is one I have frequently used myself to illustrate the point that Jing is not a tangible energy that can be manipulated or worked with in the same manner as Qi. You cannot make "Jing balls", "Jing techs", and so on, and Jing is not simply compressed Qi.

I won't even get into the thing about babies without a female partner.  :headwall:  :headwall:  :headwall:

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Jing can be seen and felt and heard. It can be pulled up at will by use of maha banda locks, breath, will and visualisation; after its cultivation.It is not invisible it can be seen in or out of the body with clairvoyance.

Wrong, wrong, wrong. Qi cannot be seen, neither can Jing. If you turn off the lights and claim to see energy in the dark, and think you're seeing Qi, it's really probably just neural discharges in your eyes from your relaxed state of meditation.

Jing cannot be directly controlled or manipulated. It can be felt, I'll give you that, when you use it against an opponent.

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It can be concentrated and made stronger , bolder , more capable. This occurs through use, flow, pathworking, exercise, and attunements. There is an inherent difference in the quality of pale white Jing and emerald green Jing. White is inferior but promising. Jing is superior and delivering. Qi/Chi is not Jing at all. It is Water energy which is female,cold,wet,negative, passive,magnetic energy. Energy can be stepped up or down and become another vibration and take on the qualities of that vibration like frequencies on an EMR or a tuner finding a station on a radio;

No, Jing is developed through restraint, self moderation, abstinence from sex, Zhan Zhuang and Qigong, proper diet, exercise, and many other things. I don't know what you mean by "use", as I said, Jing cannot be manipulated like Qi. If you think you are manipulating Jing, you are probably just manipulating Qi. Through certain techniques it can be employed, particularly in the internal arts, but it cannot be manipulated. I know this from trying, from 15 years of experience, and from study. I don't know what "flow", "pathworking" and "attunements" are but they all sound equally hokey to me. I'll give you that much.

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Air  highest vibration; white, greens cool, damp, positive, lightest in weight, lifting, raising vibration of other energies, healing, projecting, ascending consciousness; ruby red 'XIE' supernal HeavenStone

Water lowering vibration; blues, purples, wettest, coldest, dark, negative, cooling, carrying , flow QI/CHI

Fire raising vibration; yellow, orange, golden, hottest, driest, positive, light in weight,brightest in light,  SHEN

Earth lowest vibration;browns, reds, moist darkest, heaviest, negative grounding shielding hiding male energy JING/CHING

I don't know where you're getting this from but I would advise anyone else reading to probably disregard any such charts.

Traditionally in Qigong, according to Dr. Yang, Jwing-Ming, president of the YMAA (http://ymaa.com/publishing/authors/dr.yang_jwing-ming), author of 40 books on Qigong, and Kungfu student since 1961..

Jing is Yin in nature and is water element and centered in the lower Dantian.

Qi is Yang in nature and is fire element and centered in the middle Dantian.

This comes directly from Qigong: The Secret of Youth by Dr. Yang.

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Although the bones and organs are affected by the treasures it is clumsy and inexact to say that these are produced or stored in the physical body these are the essences of the subtle energies in the human energy body. Jing is air it is formed in the densest energy earth but it is not earth it is the reciprocal of it.

Jing is not air; it's water. This is evidenced in Daoist Fire and Water (Kan and Li) meditations. Additionally, it is very much a physical force, as it develops and builds in the muscles over time. This happens through Stance Training (Zhan Zhuang). This is why someone who doesn't have solid stance training and hasn't built the muscles of the abdominals, legs, and lower back cannot do Fa Jing (One Inch Punch or Explosive Power).

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Hermetically yin is female; water and air. Yang is male; fire and earth.

Yes, because after 15 years of doing this I don't know what Yin and Yang are.  :headwall: :HA!:

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Jing is developed by the cauldron occurring between the orange and red chakras. It is fed with energy flowing upwards from the perineum to the naval through a subtle body structure called the lower tan tien or male tan tien. It is also fed from a reciprocal tube or tan tien flowing down from the middle tan tien from the SunStone. Qi is water energy or flow which moves and carries energies. There are two main plates of energies at birth . These occur on the scalp and the perineum. The upper one is female in nature and moves energy downward from the upper os and from the purple chakra to the red chakra. It is called the Crown of the Goddess. It has a bundle of nadis within it called a kanda /candle. The lower one is male in nature and moves energy upward from the lower os to the red earth stone up towards the green heaven stone. There is a bundle of nadis within it called a kanda/candle these diverge into three primary channels; Pingali, Ida and Sushumna. Like the stones of earth, fire and water, air is missing. So too in the nadis there is father sun yellow fire, mother moon blue water, and prince blood pink earth but air is missing. Air is not the philosopher stone however. Air is the supernal Heavenstone which yields the ruby red treasure which has been called Xie for gratitude. It affords connection to Godhead , UnioMystica and the writing of the imprint of the soul's  spiritual dna throgh the immortal rainbow energy body. It is "under the earth" that we find that. There is an infernal stone which occurs under the physical earth beneath the feet of the magickian/martial artist it is on the head of the hanged man and that has another treasure;
heaven supernal air treasure earth 'Xie' precursor of the Philosopher Stone
moon head water treasure fire Shen
sun  head fire  treasure water Qi
earth belly earth treasure air Jing
golden bowl below feet infernal.sun......................moon.akasha Philosopher's Stone
The feet of the Hanged Man or infernal tree open and close an ouroborous. The silver dome of the physical cranium connects with the golden bowl of the hanged man's head. When open this is linear and the magickian is tuned out  and grounded. When closed this is circular and the magickian is connected , switched on , tuned in. The magickian learns to connect this at will with what Alister Crowley called the black cube. There are two cubic structures a white and silver one and a black and gold one. Like magnets these may turn and repel each other and cause  the circuit to be turned off or they may turn another way and cause the circuit to close and become connected and switched on.

This is decent information and I like the idea of the Dantian being connected by tubes, as long as you don't see that as being a real physical feature of the human body.

However, I would caution you about mixing paradigms into each other like that. When I do Kundalini yoga I work with the nadis, Ida and Pingala, and Sushumna. Sushumna directly relates to the Chongmei (Through-going) meridian, but Ida and Pingala are separate and distinct from the Dumei (Governor) and Renmei (Conception) vessels. So, depending on if I'm doing Yoga or Qigong I switch between working with Chakras and Nadis to Dantian and Meridians. Of course, these have parallels, but we must be careful in realizing they are different systems developed independently and from different schools of thought and philosophy. If you are interested more in the parallels, I encourage you to check this article (http://forums.vsociety.net/index.php/topic,20963.0.html) in the Appendix.

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The gaining of the Philosopher's Stone is the ability to open and close the ouroborous at will lengthening the circuit and widening it with development so that the spiritual DNA is imprinted by the soul on the subsequent incarnations and so that the soul is magnified on its route to enlightenment. This causes the magickian to be able to feel clairsentiently, to see clairvoyantly, to hear clairaudiently, to fly in projection and to manifest with control at will. This is not the panacea though. Life gives us trials and tribulations which the Buddhists monks and nuns see as joy. A full plate of suffering provides a life of learning and cleansing of negative karma. We have been taught that the enlightened do not suffer. Enlightenment is an infinite and eternal path full of woe. Those who lack compassion do not hear the cries of the world and are not moved and are by definition not enlightened.

And, back to the New Agey stuff about DNA.  :headwall: :headwall: :headwall: :headwall: :headwall: :headwall: :headwall: :headwall:

Also, "Enlightenment is an infinite and eternal path full of woe"? Traditionally, the true Enlightenment of Buddhism is a liberation of karma and thusly, the end of all suffering, with the obligation to relieve all other beings of that same suffering. I think if someone truly makes it to this point (Hint: Nobody on the internet has. I don't care who they are) they would be above such a simple, mortal concept such as woe.

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Qi does lead Jing.It leads all.

Yes, this is what I'm subtlety getting at. The key to manifesting Jing is to manifest your Qi. Thus, when I say that Jing cannot be directly controlled, I'm just saying that you can't form it into a ball or move it around the body or shoot it at your cat or whatever. That doesn't mean there aren't other ways to apply it, because at a certain level of development your Jing and Qi cease to be separate and become attached to each other, and even eventually become one. This takes many years of training, and I'm not fully at that point yet, but I have experienced Kundalini, which in Qigong is known as Xi Shui Jing or the rising of the water path. When someone has attained to this level the Jing and Qi become intertwined. I guess I had to spell it out fully to make it known, I have some secrets too, and this is the only basis why I said Jing cannot be controlled. (It can't, until you experience awakening, and even then it's still a separate force, and it's mostly Qi flowing in the spine.)

 
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Thank you for this thought provoking thread.

No problem. Thank you for the thought provoking reply. Be aware, though, that this reply took an hour of my time when I was in the middle of meditation. So, if you post another very long reply I may not respond as much.

Good Health and Training.

Kouji
Title: Re: What is Jing?
Post by: Aunt Clair on May 25, 2013, 06:06:02 AM
The idea of the Daoist Three Treasures and Alchemy has existed for many thousands of years without the idea of DNA activation, etc. It's basically hogwash and can't be proven.
It doesn't need to be proven. I agree that this premise is preposterous. The process I meant to convey was the transference of a portion of one's attained vibration , subtle energy structures  and conciousness after death to imprint this on the next incarnation.
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"Many Western and Eastern traditions share a common doctrine on a spiritual and immortal body which represents the ultimate goal of many ascetical works"...called the resurrection body or glorified body in Christianity, the most sacred body (wujud al-aqdas) or supracelestial body (jism asli haqiqi) in Sufism, the diamond body in Taoism , the Vajrayana or the light body or rainbow body in Tibetan Buddhism, the body of bliss in Kriya Yoga, and the immortal body (soma athanaton) in Hermeticism.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Body_of_resurrection

"A hundred and one are the arteries of the heart, one of them leads up to the crown of the head. Going upward through that, one becomes immortal."

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...DNA will be a 2 strand double helix. I'm not a molecular biologist either, just a bullshit sniffer.
I agree with you.I don't espouse this gaining new strands of DNA theory nor have I posited that here. I do believe that the vibration of the human continues to evolve slowly over generations but the physical DNA is not affected by any change in the vibration of the subtle energy body.I see your point. By using a DNA analogy, I take on board that the term spiritual DNA is easily confused with a rubbish supposition that the human develops additional strands of DNA.  
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These kinds of things take even MORE time and dedication
I agree.
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I won't even get into the thing about babies without a female partner.
This is a goal of ancient alchemy. It is not my personal theory nor is it absent from the works of Asian Alchemists either. In fact some writings say it is one of the goals of the Microcosmic Orbit. In any case. I find that this is a veiled occult riddle. I can not debate this or even cite my previous readings upon it so I won't. I can only theorise upon it with you .
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Jing can be seen and felt and heard. It can be pulled up at will by use of Maha Banda locks, breath, will and visualisation; after its cultivation.It is not invisible it can be seen in or out of the body with clairvoyance.
Respectfully, ALL subtle energies can be felt and seen. It is not commonly done but it is possible and it has been done since ancient times. There are ancient written records of the colours of the energies in art, occult artefacts and in sacred texts, although these were disparate and continue to be so even in contemporary paradigms.

"The five Tanmatras or rudimentary principles of the elements: Sabda (sound), Sparsa (touch), Rupa (form or colour), Rasa (taste), Gandha (smell)." I can not smell or taste the elements but I can feel and see these and sometimes hear these. It is possible to smell demons though and to smell the fragrance of some spirits. I suppose that is smelling energy. But what is the smell of specific treasures or Hermetic energies?

My conviction that Air is green and sought for ascension as echoed in the choice of colour in the Emerald Tablet comes from a few sources as well as my clairvoyant observations;

3 Principle Nadis;
Ida            Moon cold female pale blue
Pingala      Sun   hot male     yellow
Sushumna Earth                   pink
There are innumerable nadis. The fourth to develop is the illusive sought after princess; Gandahari, princess air.

There are also 3 Principle Stones;
Head        Moon
Chest       Sun
Belly        Earth
Again Air is missing. It is sought after like Gandahari the princess

3 Principle Treasures;  
Upper       Shen    Fire
Middle      Qi        Water
Lower       Jing      Air

The fourth is missing and is found in the supernal 'Xie' Earth. I feel that Tao/Dao is the pathway not the fourth noble energy or treasure.

Many disagree about which treasures correspond to each Hermetic elements or disavow that any correspondence exists. I draw from my own research and observations of the human energy body. But there is accord that there are 4 principle energies or tattwas, not 3.
Air is alluded to in the angel of the Hermetic Sphinx;

totem     body part   imho;element/colour  projected aspect of soul
angel      head         air             green       green winged GA+HS    
eagle      wings        water         blue         blue winged guardian angel
lion         torso hind  fire            yellow      lion maned higher self
bull         forelegs     earth         red           minotaur guardian demon
serpent   tail            earth+ fire  amber      serpent tailed lower self
  
The seeker finds completion by attaining the fourth energy to complete each set. It is interesting that the fourth is usually air. But in Jing it is uniquely the first of a set. Like the ouroboros, there is a circular path from the perineum to the crown and from the crown back to the perineum. Once that first circle is completed then the Jing is created and this mix is now ascended again.The seeker wants Earth and finds it in the supernal energy centres. In the Hermetic Sphinx we see all four energies and the tail is the hint that there are secondary energiesas it is not the 5th tattwa akasha though;
Angel     head   air            green
Eagle     wings  water        blue
Lion       chest   fire           yellow  
Bull        belly   earth         red
Serpent  tail      fire+earth  orange

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I don't know where you're getting this from but I would advise anyone else reading to probably disregard any such charts.
This is mostly Hermetic Alchemy echoed by Franz Bardon in IIH.  But the supernal energy centre is alluded to anciently and has been confirmed by Mantak Chia whom I wrote to regarding Taoist Alchemy and its relation to Hermetic Alchemy.

* Jing "is also believed by some to be the carrier of our heritage (similar to DNA)." This is from Wikipedia . It is true that it is the opinion of "some" which is a vague quantity , I know but I do agree with this.

Only these bits are my own;  
*ruby red supernal treasure within the green supernal HeavenStone
* Qi is water pulled by the breath and muscles begun in the firey chest or Sunstone but reciprocal to it just as firey Shen is reciprocal to the water energy of the head.

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Traditionally in Qigong, according to Dr. Yang, Jwing-Ming, president of the YMAA (http://ymaa.com/publishing/authors/dr.yang_jwing-ming), author of 40 books on Qigong, and Kungfu student since 1961;Jing is Yin in nature and is water element and centered in the lower Dantian.
I agree that it is in the lower Dantian/ tan tien but I disagree that it is water. I love the works of Franz Bardon but he is not infallible either, no one is.

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Qi is Yang in nature and is fire element and centered in the middle Dantian.
Qi is in the middle Dantian I agree.  And it is surrounded by fire.

I subscribed to this belief once myself that the treasure was fire too but fire doesn't flow. Qi is white and then becomes blue and then becomes bright sapphire blue. It is cold , it flows like a river. I am not alone in my conviction that Qi is water. Qi means flow, breath and 'no fire'. Beyond these proofs, each treasure is the reciprocal of the stone in which it is cultivated;
head  water  treasure fire    shen
chest fire     treasure water chi
belly  earth  treasure air     ching

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This is decent information and I like the idea of the Dantian being connected by tubes, as long as you don't see that as being a real physical feature of the human body.
Thank you. Most of that is my own work. I see and feel the energy structures. And I offer free energy body readings so that I can map out the predictable continuum of the development of the human energy body. Most of the people, I read are magickians. I would love to view Martial Artists more often. I find that the extraordinary vessels in the wrists and the energy centres of the palm are predictably advanced in healers and some branches of Martial Art that work with energy. I can be contacted on Skype.

this article (http://forums.vsociety.net/index.php/topic,20963.0.html) in the Appendix.
Thank you. I look forward to reading that.
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And, back to the New Agey stuff about DNA.
It is not my idea but it has merit and it is how this is represented to me in meditation. I saw light pouring from a old fashioned blueprint into a thin tall vase in one vision. In another it was explained to me as a person lying in a coffin rising and lying in another coffin and these two imprints left a fossil like impression in the coffins which was picked up with a blue light and preserved in a clay pot. And various other meditative visions and lessons and reading of the works of others leads me to that conclusion that the energy body can be maintained and transferred to the next incarnation. This is the immortal rainbow energy body, in my humble opinion.

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Also, "Enlightenment is an infinite and eternal path full of woe"? Traditionally, the true Enlightenment of Buddhism is a liberation of karma and thusly, the end of all suffering, with the obligation to relieve all other beings of that same suffering. I think if someone truly makes it to this point (Hint: Nobody on the internet has. I don't care who they are) they would be above such a simple, mortal concept such as woe.

Yes I agree, it would seem so and most Buddhists subscribe to that view. Quan Yen /Konan is a revered Boddhisatva and a Goddess of Compassion who hears the cries of the world. Buddha taught that the one who broke the wheel of Samsara could not enter the golden pond enlightened without hearing the cries of the world and returning to serve with compassion. He taught that one can not be enlightened without ending the suffering of their family, their community and when the student asked, how much suffering must the enlightened one end before they can leave the suffering behind and the Buddha answered; across the entire world and across all time.

Thank you for the time you took for an intelligent and thoughtful reply.
Good Health and Training to you, also.
Title: Re: What is Jing?
Post by: Koujiryuu on May 25, 2013, 03:16:11 PM
Quote
Respectfully, ALL subtle energies can be felt and seen. It is not commonly done but it is possible and it has been done since ancient times. There are ancient written records of the colours of the energies in art, occult artefacts and in sacred texts although these were disparate and continue to be so even in contemporary paradigms.

Again, Jing and Qi are both invisible by nature. If you "see" them or whatever, you are probably seeing neural discharges in the dark. Or, you may see them clairvoyantly, sure, but this will be in a dream state. Seeing them in our physical reality isn't possible. Seeing auras is, but that's different- the aura is a natural emanation of the energy in the body, but it is not the energy itself.

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3 Principle Nadis;
Ida            Moon cold female pale blue
Pingala      Sun   hot male     yellow
Sushumna Earth                   pink
There are innumerable nadis. The fourth to develop is the illusive sought after princess; Gandahari, princess air.

There are also 3 Principle Stones;
Head        Moon
Chest       Sun
Belly        Earth
Again Air is missing. It is sought after like Gandahari the princess

3 Principle Treasures;  
Upper       Shen    Fire
Middle      Qi        Water
Lower       Jing      Air

Again, Qi and Jing are invisible and have no color. Realistically, if you see them clairvoyantly they can be any color you want them to be. However, Qi by nature will be fiery and Jing by nature will be water. Qi is Yang and Jing is Yin. Additionally, you get into divisions like Yin and Yang Qi, where there are both in all the meridians of the body. A big part of Daoist Qigong is balancing and being in touch with both sides, and working for the eventual reunification of the two, to form Wu Qi (or Void Qi, Qi devoid of polarity).

You can make them any color you want if you work clairvoyantly but that is still only your perception. This is why I don't visualize, and why a lot of internal artists don't visualize, because we don't need to. We move the energy through Will alone, and thus avoid the stumbling blocks of imagination and delusion. Mind_Bender wrote a lot about this.

Also, it is bad to try and apply a Hermetic elemental scheme to Qigong because Qigong doesn't use Fire, Air, Earth and Water. Qigong uses the Xingyi, the Chinese five elements of Fire, Water, Earth, Wood and Metal. Further, it expands into the 8 Trigrams Bagua. So please don't relate Qigong to Hermetic elementalism because it's blatantly wrong and against Chinese culture.


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This is Hermetic Alchemy echoed by Franz Bardon in IIH:

The supernal energy centre is alluded to anciently and has been confirmed by Mantak Chia whom I wrote to regarding Taoist Alchemy and its relation to Hermetic Alchemy.

Mantak Chia has no credibility. He charges exorbitant amounts of money for retreats and spiritual teaching and has become rich in the process. Furthermore, students of systems like Longmen Pai and Yang Shen Dao have stated that his practices and beliefs don't align with true Daoist neidan cultivation. I too have read a lot of his work, such as Greater Kan and Li, and astrological correspondences he uses, and none of them align with anything else I've read on Daoist meditation by reputable authors like Yang Jwing Ming and Wong Kiew Kit. I have even heard that the reason Mantak Chia teaches out of Thailand is because he pretty much got run out of China for his practices not being authentic and for lack of credibility. Mystic probably knows more about this than I do.

However, the Universal Tao forums have some insightful posters and good information on things like Daoist Kan and Li practice, that align much better with the Daoist paradigm. So while Mr. Chia has no credibility, he has some knowledgeable and informed students (who probably learned most of what I'm talking about from other places).

Again, Daoist neigong is not Hermetic Alchemy. The associations don't matter. Franz Bardon doesn't matter- he wasn't a Daoist or Martial Artist. From everything I've read he was a fat alcoholic smoker in poor physical shape with heart problems.

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I agree that it is in the lower Dantian/ tan tien but I disagree that it is water. I love the works of Franz Bardon but he is not infallible either, no one is.

Again this has nothing to do with Franz Bardon. I clearly stated that this is the traditional belief in Daoism, and it comes from reputable sources with Chinese Medicine doctorates from China like Dr Yang Jwing Ming.

Jing is Yin in nature and is Water element.

Finally, if you want to read more about Jing and my stance on it, check out this thread:

http://forums.vsociety.net/index.php/topic,20584.0.html

Good Health and Training.
Kouji
Title: Re: What is Jing?
Post by: quabbal on May 27, 2013, 07:58:15 AM
Quote from: Koujiryuu
Mantak Chia has no credibility. He charges exorbitant amounts of money for retreats and spiritual teaching and has become rich in the process. Furthermore, students of systems like Longmen Pai and Yang Shen Dao have stated that his practices and beliefs don't align with true Daoist neidan cultivation. I too have read a lot of his work, such as Greater Kan and Li, and astrological correspondences he uses, and none of them align with anything else I've read on Daoist meditation by reputable authors like Yang Jwing Ming and Wong Kiew Kit. I have even heard that the reason Mantak Chia teaches out of Thailand is because he pretty much got run out of China for his practices not being authentic and for lack of credibility. Mystic probably knows more about this than I do.

However, the Universal Tao forums have some insightful posters and good information on things like Daoist Kan and Li practice, that align much better with the Daoist paradigm. So while Mr. Chia has no credibility, he has some knowledgeable and informed students (who probably learned most of what I'm talking about from other places).

Again, Daoist neigong is not Hermetic Alchemy. The associations don't matter. Franz Bardon doesn't matter- he wasn't a Daoist or Martial Artist. From everything I've read he was a fat alcoholic smoker in poor physical shape with heart problems.

Quote
I agree that it is in the lower Dantian/ tan tien but I disagree that it is water. I love the works of Franz Bardon but he is not infallible either, no one is.

Again this has nothing to do with Franz Bardon. I clearly stated that this is the traditional belief in Daoism, and it comes from reputable sources with Chinese Medicine doctorates from China like Dr Yang Jwing Ming.

Yoga and Sex Scandals: No surprise in Taoist Sexual QiGong groups either (http://ancientway.com/blog/?p=1026)

Lets' say you are a so-called "Taoist guru" and you want to have, repeatedly, intercourse with minors way under the age of consent, with the excuse of practicing your taoist practices, cool isn't it, then how are you called(p.d..file, he doesnt even hide it, just take a loot at his recent photos, and "feel" his vibe, and teaching sexual practices among young hotties, jeeez does he love that. Yes many of his instructors know these things, but you can't bash your master(trademark) now can you), and where do you go where life is cheap, and you get a lot of minors very young girls. Thailand (CM)

His way of teaching is not bad(if only the single good thing about him), but his materials, you can do without, don't worry. He has made a brand name of himself, so being as an instructor of his, maybe there is some bonus.

I'm no expert, but keeping separate hermetics from daoist practices seems like a good idea. Koujiryuu, please don't bash Bardon, there reasons for his karma and physical conditions, he even explains those, very briefly, on KTQ, on how much he'll be allowed to stay and reveal, I've been practicing his system and unless one hasn't done and had success with that, then one really doesn't have a saying. He was one of the highest initiates of past century, and one can tell that by practicing his system and then decoding between the lines, but let's not get there.
Title: Re: What is Jing?
Post by: Aunt Clair on May 27, 2013, 08:24:49 AM
I love Bardon's work. I believe all have suffering in their lives and that those who have become masters of some aspect; magick, metaphysics, martial arts are not immune to suffering but tend to have it heaped upon their plates. In fact the Buddhist nuns and monks teach that they are mindful to be thankful for all that occurs to them and to realise with joy that suffering is removing negative Karma from past life transgressions and facilitating enlightenment.

The colours of the tattwas, nadis, chakras and other subtle energy structures and elemental energies were anciently recorded in Vedantic texts and Yoga teaches that these can be viewed;
"Nadis are astral tubes made up of astral matter that carry Pranic currents. They can be seen by the astral eyes only. "
Title: Re: What is Jing?
Post by: Koujiryuu on May 27, 2013, 01:22:02 PM
Quote from: quabbal
Yoga and Sex Scandals: No surprise in Taoist Sexual QiGong groups either

Lets' say you are a so-called "Taoist guru" and you want to have, repeatedly, intercourse with minors way under the age of consent, with the excuse of practicing your taoist practices, cool isn't it, then how are you called(p.d..file, he doesnt even hide it, just take a loot at his recent photos, and "feel" his vibe, and teaching sexual practices among young hotties, jeeez does he love that. Yes many of his instructors know these things, but you can't bash your master(trademark) now can you), and where do you go where life is cheap, and you get a lot of minors very young girls. Thailand (CM)

His way of teaching is not bad(if only the single good thing about him), but his materials, you can do without, don't worry. He has made a brand name of himself, so being as an instructor of his, maybe there is some bonus.

This is exactly the kind of thing I'm getting at. Good article you linked.

My sex life is my business...but I should make it clear that there's a reason I don't teach any of these methods on Veritas.

Sure, I'm familiar with some of the techniques described in Mantak Chia's book. I'm also familiar with Xi Shui Jing as I have all the information I want on it in Dr. Yang Jwing-Ming's "Qigong: The Secret of Youth" book.

Personally, I don't practice these methods or any sort of Tantra. I think they're dangerous and unnecessary. I also think they have a high capacity to corrupt people.

My Qigong is closer to a fighter's Qigong but at a higher level it involves Qi circulation practice and Fire and Water meditation. NOT tantra or sexual practice. You don't need those for spiritual fulfillment and they are a dangerous path.

Sure, I've experimented with things like Xi Shui Jing but I would never teach them nor would I really be interested in learning them in person (eww). I am also familiar with couple's practice but I would NEVER do that because I believe it's immoral. I love my girlfriend and I don't want to steal her Yin Qi from her during sex. That is about the most unloving thing you can do. Not my thing.

Guys, you really don't need any of these methods to become a strong fighter or Qigong practitioner. Stay away.
Title: Re: What is Jing?
Post by: Shinichi on May 27, 2013, 02:10:56 PM
Ahem. I would like to introduce a slightly new line of discussion into this topic.

In Yue Fei's Ten Important Theses, his discussion of the Six Combinations gave me the impression that martial Power and the Essence that Jing is are two fundamentally different things. Rather than being one of the three treasures, or being directly related to it, the results of the Six Combinations implies the Martial Power ("Jing") is the result of Yi, Shen, Qi, and Li all working in perfect harmony and balance. When the Mind, Spirit, and Body are unified and work as one body instead of three, there is Power.

And yet, for years, everyone discussing Martial Power always discusses "Jing" in its relation to the three treasures, not its relation to the Six Combinations an the alignment of Yi, Shen, Qi, and Li.

Now, I'm not saying that the three treasures and Jing as Essence aren't important to martial arts. But, what do you think about this slightly different perspective provided by Liu He (Six Combinations)?

Discuss. :cow:



~:Shin:~
Title: Re: What is Jing?
Post by: Koujiryuu on May 27, 2013, 02:35:26 PM
Quote from: Shinichi
Ahem. I would like to introduce a slightly new line of discussion into this topic.

In Yue Fei's Ten Important Theses, his discussion of the Six Combinations gave me the impression that martial Power and the Essence that Jing is are two fundamentally different things. Rather than being one of the three treasures, or being directly related to it, the results of the Six Combinations implies the Martial Power ("Jing") is the result of Yi, Shen, Qi, and Li all working in perfect harmony and balance. When the Mind, Spirit, and Body are unified and work as one body instead of three, there is Power.

Not having read or heard of the Ten Important Theses, I'll do my best to answer this.

This comes from the distinction between Jin (internal power) and Jing (essence). Technically, they are separate ideas. However, in many internal arts taught in America, they are taken to mean the same thing, but in different applications. This is why Taijiquan has Peng Jing, Fa Jing, Lu Jing, Ji Jing etc. and Baguazhang has Ming Jing, An Jing and Hua Jing. These are all different forms of expressing power in martial application. As far as I know, they are all also rooted in balance and using your center of gravity (the Dantian).

The way I see it, internal force (Jin) is derived from the essence (Jing). Of course, as you mentioned, to apply internal force you must have understanding of and be able to apply Yi (which is Shen), Qi (breath and energy) and Li (physical strength, muscular strength).

In the internal arts, Jin(g) means power. In Daoist Alchemy, Jing means essence. Through practices like the Microcosmic Orbit, Kan and Li meditation, Macrocosmic Orbit, and many other transcendental meditations, we strengthen and develop Jing (essence). A direct result of this is the renewal of the body, causing a vibration in all the cells of the body. This essence begins to flow backward and up the spine to nourish the brain and Shen. This vibrating energy has direct application in internal arts, and it begins to envelop and strengthen the muscles. Even more so if you practice something like Yi Jin Jing (Iron Shirt). The Qi and also the Jing (essence) of the body moves into the muscles and strengthens them. When combined with Zhan Zhuang (stance training), the Jing (essence) directly becomes Jin (internal force), and using proper technique you can apply this internal force in martial arts.

So, there is a bit of confusion around this topic, but the way I see it, the two terms are similar enough in actual practice as to basically be the same thing. Technically? Yes they are different. However, it's much easier to explain to Westerners that they are one and the same thing because they are VERY closely related anyhow.

Quote
And yet, for years, everyone discussing Martial Power always discusses "Jing" in its relation to the three treasures, not its relation to the Six Combinations an the alignment of Yi, Shen, Qi, and Li.

Now, I'm not saying that the three treasures and Jing as Essence aren't important to martial arts. But, what do you think about this slightly different perspective provided by Liu He (Six Combinations)?

See above.
Title: Re: What is Jing?
Post by: Shinichi on May 27, 2013, 02:57:14 PM
Not having read or heard of the Ten Important Theses, I'll do my best to answer this.

http://www.nei-jia.org/hsingichuanclassics.htm

They are the "Xing Yi Classics," written by Yue Fei himself, according to the annals of martial arts history. I first heard of them in Dr Yang, Jwing-Ming's book on Xing Yi. In the back of the book, he includes the ten essays with his commentary. I have treasured the book for that alone, besides all of the other information it has on Xing Yi. The doctors translation is also better than the one provided in the link, but that is the only place I could find them online in a quick search.

To the rest, thank you. That certainly does clear up a bit for me.



~:Shin:~
Title: Re: What is Jing?
Post by: Koujiryuu on May 27, 2013, 03:11:14 PM
Thanks for the link, I'll look through that another time.

Keep in mind, I'm not a Taijiquan student, or a Baguazhang student, or a Xingyiquan student.

However, over many years of scholarly research of these arts, and my own personal martial arts practice using Tao of Jeet Kune Do, I believe I have unearthed and learned the principles of Fa Jing, also known as explosive power or the one-inch punch. Erle Montague's site helped a lot with this, so did studying Bruce Lee. Of course, I understand it well in the context of Internal Alchemy, and Dr. Yang Jwing-Ming's books helped a lot with this.

So, I don't know all of the myriad applications of Jing in Taijiquan. My understanding is limited.
Title: Re: What is Jing?
Post by: Shinichi on May 27, 2013, 03:18:36 PM
That's acceptable. Even with that, you gave a logical explanation and articulated something in a way that many have tried and failed to do, and finally made me understand something that has confused me for years.  :wink:



~:Shin:~
Title: Re: What is Jing?
Post by: Mind_Bender on May 27, 2013, 06:26:29 PM
I haven't read the book that was mentioned, but in the Baguazhang style I have been learning the, if I remember correctly, the Six Combinations are related to the Three Treasures of Jing Qi and Shen, but are also related on a more physical level of the connection of your joints, thus your movements and blood flow (Qi is the Mother of Blood, Blood is the General of Qi- a Qigong proverb I picked up in the '72 Arts of Shaolin').

Wrists, elbows, shoulders, ankles, knees and hips all work in accordance with each other (Six Combinations). For proper Qi flow and martial power you connect these combinations as pairs that must work together as you move from the center. That is, hips and shoulders are one link, elbows and knees are the second link, and ankles and wrists are the third link (Three Treasures). They are connected by what is called Cocking the Five Bows (legs, arms and spine). This Cocking of the Five Bows builds internal power by extending and strengthening the tendons, ligaments and muscles. This process then strengthens your bones (Steel Wrapped in Cotton- or Iron Body) because your muscles are squeezing your bones and as you perform your Qigong and/or martial practice, you are enhancing this squeezing, thus the strength, elasticity and density of your tendons, ligaments, muscles and bones with fighting techniques and/or breathing methods. This is the 'secret' behind Iron Body and Golden Bell... actually the secret is years of hard and dedicated practice. Just thought I'd mention this.
Title: Re: What is Jing?
Post by: Searching on May 27, 2013, 06:56:43 PM
This is exactly the kind of thing I'm getting at. Good article you linked.

My sex life is my business...but I should make it clear that there's a reason I don't teach any of these methods on Veritas.

Sure, I'm familiar with some of the techniques described in Mantak Chia's book. I'm also familiar with Xi Shui Jing as I have all the information I want on it in Dr. Yang Jwing-Ming's "Qigong: The Secret of Youth" book.

Personally, I don't practice these methods or any sort of Tantra. I think they're dangerous and unnecessary. I also think they have a high capacity to corrupt people.

I'm going to have to respectfully disagree on this point.

Intense or incomplete (or intense incomplete!) exercises of ANY sort are dangerous. In pretty much every spiritual tradition that addresses sexual energy, they all agree it is a very powerful type of energy. Powerful energy, if not handled appropriately, can harm.

To add to the issue, many people have an incomplete knowledge of some of these practices. And so their instruction in them can be dangerous.

TheTaoBums has had many discussions on the harms of practicing Mantak Chia's system of sexual qigong. But a lot of conversation has come out of that as to where exactly sexual practices fall into a system. Most members of a fully developed system agree: sexual practices belong within the greater context of a complete system. A complete system teaches you how to balance your mind and how to handle strong flows of energy. This should be preparatory work and laid as a foundation LONG before sexual practices are even looked at.

Many people skip this, or purchase one or two books online out of context, and get hurt practicing. That's not necessarily the fault of the practice. The practice is just doing what it does.

Again, ANY practice taught under those conditions is going to have a disproportionate amount of students having issues. Consider power lifting. Power lifters have very specific sets of physical techniques and training regiments for building up to lift certain amounts of weight safely. A person going into it (or heaven forbid, TEACHING it) with an incomplete understanding is going to get hurt. If they did maybe a lesser practice, they might not see the results. But such an intense practice? They're going to get hurt.

Further complicating the issue with sex practices is the general climate of sex acceptance in the West. Even amidst consenting adults, certain sex practices are socially frowned upon in polite society. Again, that has nothing to do with the efficacy of the practice.

Tantric practices are neither dangerous nor unnecessary, and again, pretty much every complete spiritual tradition that I have seen addresses them in some fashion.

What they ARE is powerful and transformative. That there are people with an incomplete knowledge of them using that incomplete knowledge to take advantage of other people (whether it is a matter of social acceptance or legality) again has nothing to do with the practice.

TEACHING an incomplete practice, or a practice of which you have an incomplete understanding, IS what is dangerous.
Title: Re: What is Jing?
Post by: Koujiryuu on May 27, 2013, 08:16:54 PM
Quote
I'm going to have to respectfully disagree on this point.

Intense or incomplete (or intense incomplete!) exercises of ANY sort are dangerous. In pretty much every spiritual tradition that addresses sexual energy, they all agree it is a very powerful type of energy. Powerful energy, if not handled appropriately, can harm.

To add to the issue, many people have an incomplete knowledge of some of these practices. And so their instruction in them can be dangerous.

TheTaoBums has had many discussions on the harms of practicing Mantak Chia's system of sexual qigong. But a lot of conversation has come out of that as to where exactly sexual practices fall into a system. Most members of a fully developed system agree: sexual practices belong within the greater context of a complete system. A complete system teaches you how to balance your mind and how to handle strong flows of energy. This should be preparatory work and laid as a foundation LONG before sexual practices are even looked at.

Many people skip this, or purchase one or two books online out of context, and get hurt practicing. That's not necessarily the fault of the practice. The practice is just doing what it does.

Again. These exercises are dangerous, they hurt people, they can corrupt morals, and furthermore it is extremely difficult if not impossible to find proper instruction in them in the West.

I never said sexual energy isn't important. Sublimating and turning the sexual energy inward to nourish the organs and induce Qi flow in the spine is possible without these techniques. I achieved this on my own at the age of 17 through Kundalini yoga. I didn't need any sort of tantra or sexual practices to do it, and I still don't. All I needed was Yi and a mantra. If I can do it, I believe anyone else who is so inclined can. And because of the dangers of the sexual techniques I am going to stick to what I said, that they are particularly dangerous, and ultimately unnecessary.

Quote
Further complicating the issue with sex practices is the general climate of sex acceptance in the West. Even amidst consenting adults, certain sex practices are socially frowned upon in polite society. Again, that has nothing to do with the efficacy of the practice.

Tantric practices are neither dangerous nor unnecessary, and again, pretty much every complete spiritual tradition that I have seen addresses them in some fashion.

What they ARE is powerful and transformative. That there are people with an incomplete knowledge of them using that incomplete knowledge to take advantage of other people (whether it is a matter of social acceptance or legality) again has nothing to do with the practice.

TEACHING an incomplete practice, or a practice of which you have an incomplete understanding, IS what is dangerous.

Exactly, the sex practices aren't taught here because they are taboo.

Again, you can have powerful transformative experiences without them.

As far as teaching an "incomplete practice", I'm unsure as to whether to interpret this as a low blow against me (again), or if you're just saying it literally.

Someone can be taught to throw a proper straight cross punch with minimal effort. They can use this effectively in self defense if they have to. However, you're basically saying that if someone didn't learn every boxing punch, train 3 hours a day in a gym, jump rope, run, lift weights, take supplements, that they could not punch. This is a logical fallacy. Sure, they wouldn't be able to beat up a pro boxer, but they could still learn to hit someone hard with one particular punch.

In the same vein, someone who practices just one Qigong set a day can get a good workout, increase overall health, connect with their own energy, have improved mood, have better blood circulation, and many other things that are scientifically proven. This is why you see old folks practicing Taiji. Are they practicing a complete system? No. Is what they are practicing incomplete? Yes. They are not doing sitting meditation, they are not doing Qi circulations, they probably aren't learning how to generate and use internal power, and so on. This doesn't mean it's dangerous for them to practice simple Qigong- quite the opposite.

My own exercises and experience, and my Qigong study group, are basically a hodgepodge of techniques that I've learned from different sources over the years. They are not a "complete system". They don't come from a "lineage". However, they are all connected and upheld by Daoist philosophy and Qigong theory, and taken together, form my own personal approach to a Daoist lifestyle. Further, I have the grace to share what I know with others, for free. Nothing about this is dangerous, and in my experience everything I do has benefited me positively. All those warnings about dangers of practicing Qigong on your own are bullshit and are a ego ridden guilt trip to try and make you go and pay thousands of dollars for a spiritual retreat when you could spend $20 on a book by Yang Jwing-Ming or Wong Kiew Kit and learn essentially the same things.

If I wanted to, I could very well lie and say "I was taught a system by ancient hidden masters" or some other such nonsense, like others do, and claim I'm some kind of "adept" or whatever, but I don't. I'm honest about what I do and where it comes from. And many people here support me and want to learn what I do, even knowing that it is not a "complete system", and that my own understanding is limited. After all, I'm just a student of the Way as well.


Title: Re: What is Jing?
Post by: Shinichi on May 27, 2013, 09:11:01 PM
I haven't read the book that was mentioned, but in the Baguazhang style I have been learning the, if I remember correctly, the Six Combinations are related to the Three Treasures of Jing Qi and Shen, but are also related on a more physical level of the connection of your joints, thus your movements and blood flow (Qi is the Mother of Blood, Blood is the General of Qi- a Qigong proverb I picked up in the '72 Arts of Shaolin').

Wrists, elbows, shoulders, ankles, knees and hips all work in accordance with each other (Six Combinations). For proper Qi flow and martial power you connect these combinations as pairs that must work together as you move from the center. That is, hips and shoulders are one link, elbows and knees are the second link, and ankles and wrists are the third link (Three Treasures). They are connected by what is called Cocking the Five Bows (legs, arms and spine). This Cocking of the Five Bows builds internal power by extending and strengthening the tendons, ligaments and muscles. This process then strengthens your bones (Steel Wrapped in Cotton- or Iron Body) because your muscles are squeezing your bones and as you perform your Qigong and/or martial practice, you are enhancing this squeezing, thus the strength, elasticity and density of your tendons, ligaments, muscles and bones with fighting techniques and/or breathing methods. This is the 'secret' behind Iron Body and Golden Bell... actually the secret is years of hard and dedicated practice. Just thought I'd mention this.

It's nice to see Bagua's version of Liu He.

Yue Fei divided the Six Combinations into two parts.

Three External Combinations:
Wrists and Ankles Combine
Elbows and Knees Combine
Shoulders and Hips Combine

Three Internal Combinations:
Yi (Wisdom Mind) and Xin (Heart Mind) Combine
Yi and Qi Combine
Qi and Li Combine

In both explanations, though, the goal is the same: combine all of these separated facets of the human being into one unified force.



~:Shin:~
Title: Re: What is Jing?
Post by: Searching on May 27, 2013, 09:55:50 PM
Again. These exercises are dangerous, they hurt people, they can corrupt morals, and furthermore it is extremely difficult if not impossible to find proper instruction in them in the West.

Too many issues here.

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These exercises are dangerous

These practices are not inherently dangerous. They are what they are. Just as 400lbs of weights are what they are.

If you know what they are doing, they are fine. If you practice an incomplete or incorrect method, THAT is where the danger comes from.

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they hurt people

Incorrect practice methodologies hurt people. It may be that a teacher just never learned the proper methodologies. Or maybe the teacher did learn the proper methodology, but did not learn how to properly adjust the technique for a student. Neither are the faults of the technique.

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they can corrupt morals

A large portion of mainstream thought thinks most of the stuff discussed on this board is immoral. I don't think it's wise for us to be using the same argument that is used against us.

What do you mean by moral? Is having group sex immoral? Is having group sex for spiritual purposes immoral? Is hooking up with a 16 year old Taoist qigong student immoral? Is hooking up with a 16 year old outside of the context of Taoism immoral? What about 17? 18? What if I'm 17? 25? 35?

There are charlatans and con-men (and con-women) everywhere. Sylvia Browne has been caught on video spouting bullshit which is proven to be false, but people still listen to her "psychic" readings. Does that mean that legitimate practices of scanning or clairvoyance (taught on this board!) are dangerous or lead to the corrupting of morals? Absolutely not.

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furthermore it is extremely difficult if not impossible to find proper instruction in them in the West

Which has nothing to do with the practice.

Frankly I'm surprised that you strung together that series of statements as reasons.

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I never said sexual energy isn't important. Sublimating and turning the sexual energy inward to nourish the organs and induce Qi flow in the spine is possible without these techniques. I achieved this on my own at the age of 17 through Kundalini yoga. I didn't need any sort of tantra or sexual practices to do it, and I still don't. All I needed was Yi and a mantra. If I can do it, I believe anyone else who is so inclined can. And because of the dangers of the sexual techniques I am going to stick to what I said, that they are particularly dangerous, and ultimately unnecessary.

It's possible to sublimate sexual energy without engaging it. It's also possible to sublimate sexual energy while engaging in it. That you can do one does not make the other unnecessary.

I can achieve orgasm with my right hand. Does that make sex unnecessary?

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Exactly, the sex practices aren't taught here because they are taboo.

Which says more about society than the practice themselves.

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Again, you can have powerful transformative experiences without them.

I'm not saying you can't.

My point is that there's more than one way to skin a cat. One way is not better or worse.

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As far as teaching an "incomplete practice", I'm unsure as to whether to interpret this as a low blow against me (again), or if you're just saying it literally.
x

When did I give the first low blow?

The specific case I had in mind was Mantak Chia's practice. A good number of the original members of The Tao Bums were from the Healing Tao forums, and one member in particular talked about having to go in for an acupuncture adjustment after doing sexual qigong found in Mantak Chia's books. Sufficed to say, the dude's body was pretty messed up.

Through much debate and back and forth, it was pretty much acknowledged that while Chia's techniques may have been legitimate (similar techniques appear in other traditions) they were not taught within the greater context of mental stilling methods (to ensure the mind is not thrown out of balance by the increase in energy) or in energetic circulation methods (to prevent the stagnation or chi) nor diagnostic methods (so students or teachers could detect problems before they occurred).

Hence, their practice was "incomplete."

That does not mean that methods that engage in sexual energy are inherently dangerous. But practicing them in the incorrect context is.

Like much of Taoism, timing is important. The right action taken at the wrong time can be the wrong action.

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Someone can be taught to throw a proper straight cross punch with minimal effort. They can use this effectively in self defense if they have to. However, you're basically saying that if someone didn't learn every boxing punch, train 3 hours a day in a gym, jump rope, run, lift weights, take supplements, that they could not punch. This is a logical fallacy. Sure, they wouldn't be able to beat up a pro boxer, but they could still learn to hit someone hard with one particular punch.

I used the power lifting analogy for a very specific reason. Powerlifting, like working with sexual energy, is inherently "higher grade."

If someone decided to do pushups, but were doing them kind of wrong, didn't have perfect form, you know, they might get some soreness, but overall, they might not get a whole lot of development with the practice. They may even get some muscle gain, and that could lead them to bettering their form in the long run.

Same with most regular sets of qigong. Even if they don't do it perfectly right, in the worst case scenario they won't get terribly hurt, and in the best case scenario, they might seem some benefit.

But powerlifting and sexual qigong are working with dramatically higher volumes. Poor form in power lifting can get you (and others) very hurt very quickly. Working with more intense forms of energy provides the same risks.

I'm speaking of sexual qigong specifically, but you can also extend this to physical yoga (exerting yourself beyond the range of motion your body can handle) as well as energetic yoga (people getting burnt out from a kundalini awakening).


I hate to use such a tired old phrase as "playing with fire," but it kind of is. Fire helped humanity rise to where we are today. But if you don't know how to handle it, you are going to get hurt.

Is fire inherently dangerous? Would I dissuade people from using fire? No. You could start eating raw foods and make the argument that fire is "unnecessary" to being healthy, and houses burn down all the time from kitchen fires.

Or you could just teach people how to properly cook using fire.
Title: Re: What is Jing?
Post by: Searching on May 27, 2013, 10:21:39 PM
And watch the karma go down..... :P
Title: Re: What is Jing?
Post by: Koujiryuu on May 27, 2013, 10:22:54 PM
Quote
It's possible to sublimate sexual energy without engaging it. It's also possible to sublimate sexual energy while engaging in it. That you can do one does not make the other unnecessary.

Exactly, and my point. If one way is so inherently dangerous and practiced incorrectly, but you can achieve the same thing a different way that is far less dangerous, which route would you choose? Further, what does this say about my character, or the character of someone teaching non sexual methods of transformation? This is why I advise against sexual yoga and don't practice it myself. You can achieve the same results a different way and they are equally as powerful.

Lets not forget that Xi Shui Jing, which deals almost entirely with the testicles, as well as Mantak Chia's methods of inducing retrograde ejaculation, cannot be practiced by women at all. Are women then to be excluded from Daoism spiritual practice?

Thankfully, there's a better way.

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Which has nothing to do with the practice.

Frankly I'm surprised that you strung together that series of statements as reasons.

They are all valid reasons. You have basically cited in your two posts exactly what I said in that sentence.

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When did I give the first low blow?

When you claimed for the 5th time that Qi isn't real, all of the practices are psychosomatic, then proceeded to call me selfish because I "sit around circulating energy in the Microcosmic Orbit all day" (which I don't). You also quoted the Daodejing about a patience, which you said I lacked, and essentially said I was a hypocrite. Also, ignoring the fact that I was sincerely trying to help you out. I cannot rationalize those posts now except to think they were a waste of my time and yours. (http://forums.vsociety.net/index.php/topic,20975.0.html)

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The specific case I had in mind was Mantak Chia's practice. A good number of the original members of The Tao Bums were from the Healing Tao forums, and one member in particular talked about having to go in for an acupuncture adjustment after doing sexual qigong found in Mantak Chia's books. Sufficed to say, the dude's body was pretty messed up.

Through much debate and back and forth, it was pretty much acknowledged that while Chia's techniques may have been legitimate (similar techniques appear in other traditions) they were not taught within the greater context of mental stilling methods (to ensure the mind is not thrown out of balance by the increase in energy) or in energetic circulation methods (to prevent the stagnation or chi) nor diagnostic methods (so students or teachers could detect problems before they occurred).

Hence, their practice was "incomplete."

That does not mean that methods that engage in sexual energy are inherently dangerous. But practicing them in the incorrect context is.

Like much of Taoism, timing is important. The right action taken at the wrong time can be the wrong action.

I agree with all this, especially the "timing is important". This is the biggest problem I have with Mantak Chia's work.

Also, what Mantak Chia says is Daoist sexual practice is almost completely different from what Yang Jwing-Ming (and the Xi Shui Jing classic) says about sexual practice. I wonder who's right?

It really doesn't matter if the practice is incomplete or not if there's another way of doing things. Who is to say when it's complete or not? Do you have the audacity to think you know enough about Daoist sexual practices to be able to tell when? I sure don't.

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I used the power lifting analogy for a very specific reason. Powerlifting, like working with sexual energy, is inherently "higher grade."

If someone decided to do pushups, but were doing them kind of wrong, didn't have perfect form, you know, they might get some soreness, but overall, they might not get a whole lot of development with the practice. They may even get some muscle gain, and that could lead them to bettering their form in the long run.

Same with most regular sets of qigong. Even if they don't do it perfectly right, in the worst case scenario they won't get terribly hurt, and in the best case scenario, they might seem some benefit.

But powerlifting and sexual qigong are working with dramatically higher volumes. Poor form in power lifting can get you (and others) very hurt very quickly. Working with more intense forms of energy provides the same risks.

I'm speaking of sexual qigong specifically, but you can also extend this to physical yoga (exerting yourself beyond the range of motion your body can handle) as well as energetic yoga (people getting burnt out from a kundalini awakening).


I hate to use such a tired old phrase as "playing with fire," but it kind of is. Fire helped humanity rise to where we are today. But if you don't know how to handle it, you are going to get hurt.

Is fire inherently dangerous? Would I dissuade people from using fire? No. You could start eating raw foods and make the argument that fire is "unnecessary" to being healthy, and houses burn down all the time from kitchen fires.

Or you could just teach people how to properly cook using fire.

I agree it's higher grade energy. However, as I stated, you don't have to use those methods to achieve success and induce Qi into the spinal cord. Personally, I see almost no value in sexual yoga, and no compelling reason to practice it, because I have other methods that do the same thing.
Title: Re: What is Jing?
Post by: Searching on May 27, 2013, 10:38:26 PM
Exactly, and my point. If one way is so inherently dangerous and practiced incorrectly, but you can achieve the same thing a different way that is far less dangerous, which route would you choose? Further, what does this say about my character, or the character of someone teaching non sexual methods of transformation? This is why I advise against sexual yoga and don't practice it myself. You can achieve the same results a different way and they are equally as powerful.

And it is entirely your prerogative to practice whatever method you want to practice, and teach whichever method you want to teach.

But I don't know that your reasons for advising against it paint the full story, and I have addressed those points specifically in the above posts.

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Lets not forget that Xi Shui Jing, which deals almost entirely with the testicles, as well as Mantak Chia's methods of inducing retrograde ejaculation, cannot be practiced by women at all. Are women then to be excluded from Daoism spiritual practice?

Um, there are actually lots of sexual practices for women to do.

Unless you think the ancient Taoist dudes just had sex with the other Taoist dudes and left the women do, you know, non-sex things.

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Thankfully, there's a better way.

There are alternate ways.

Quote
Quote
When did I give the first low blow?

When you claimed for the 5th time that Qi isn't real, all of the practices are psychosomatic, then proceeded to call me selfish because I "sit around circulating energy in the Microcosmic Orbit all day" (which I don't). You also quoted the Daodejing about a patience, which you said I lacked, and essentially said I was a hypocrite. Also, ignoring the fact that I was sincerely trying to help you out. I cannot rationalize those posts now except to think they were a waste of my time and yours. (http://forums.vsociety.net/index.php/topic,20975.0.html)

I don't think that post was about you.

I also titled the post "MAYBE I don't believe," emphasis mine.

I make a lot of fairly nuanced points. I may try making them again. But they were missed the first time so...

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It really doesn't matter if the practice is incomplete or not if there's another way of doing things.

Sure it does. Otherwise you're discarding an entire practice simply because it doesn't jive with you!

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Who is to say when it's complete or not? Do you have the audacity to think you know enough about Daoist sexual practices to be able to tell when? I sure don't.

Just things to look for and what to look out for.

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I agree it's higher grade energy. However, as I stated, you don't have to use those methods to achieve success and induce Qi into the spinal cord. Personally, I see almost no value in sexual yoga, and no compelling reason to practice it, because I have other methods that do the same thing.

And I don't see any compelling reason to lift weight when pushups can build muscle just as well.


My philosophy is this: If you're going to do something, do it right. If you're not going to do it right, don't do it at all.

Plenty of people out there are teaching garbage and passing it off as "sexual qigong". Plenty of people teaching ineffective or incomplete techniques out there. It ain't right, so don't do it. I'm fine with that.

But there ARE legitimate lineages which include practices of sexual qigong out there. Rare as they are and as impossible as it may be to find an authentic teacher in your area, that does not discount them as a practice. And that there may be a range of either outright frauds or honest but misguided teachers out there also does not discount the practice.

You may have reasons for not practicing them, and not teaching them, but that does not discount the practice.
Title: Re: What is Jing?
Post by: Koujiryuu on May 27, 2013, 10:44:37 PM
Quote
Um, there are actually lots of sexual practices for women to do.

Unless you think the ancient Taoist dudes just had sex with the other Taoist dudes and left the women do, you know, non-sex things.

^^ I'm not going to tolerate your flippant attitude, lack of respect, or condescending demeanor. I am not as stupid as you think I am.

I've made my point. I would urge anyone else reading to heed my warnings.

This is far enough off the "What is Jing" subject anyway. I will be happy to discuss and answer any more questions about Jing, internal force in Taijiquan, and so on. However, I'd like no more discussion of Daoist sexual practices, unless a separate thread is made (which I won't reply to).

EDIT: I'm not even sure such a thread should be made, or if any discussion of these methods should take place on Veritas, because children visit this site. There are (obviously from Searching's experience) MANY other places to discuss these things that are more appropriate. I'll check with kobok and see what he thinks.

2nd EDIT:

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And I don't see any compelling reason to lift weight when pushups can build muscle just as well.


My philosophy is this: If you're going to do something, do it right. If you're not going to do it right, don't do it at all.

Plenty of people out there are teaching garbage and passing it off as "sexual qigong". Plenty of people teaching ineffective or incomplete techniques out there. It ain't right, so don't do it. I'm fine with that.


But there ARE legitimate lineages which include practices of sexual qigong out there. Rare as they are and as impossible as it may be to find an authentic teacher in your area, that does not discount them as a practice. And that there may be a range of either outright frauds or honest but misguided teachers out there also does not discount the practice.

You may have reasons for not practicing them, and not teaching them, but that does not discount the practice.

You have a NASTY habit of editing your posts after someone has already replied to them, omitting certain sections they've already replied to, and adding more. Please, for fucks sake, STOP.  :teethy:

Regardless, I bolded your quote. This is the essence of what I'm saying and was articulated gracefully.

I don't do these methods because I don't want to damage my internal organs, disperse my Jing or Shen, and so on. The main reason: I don't know any authentic teachers.

I never said the practices themselves don't work, or that they don't have any intrinsic value, I just said that the danger is too great to be practicing them without competent instruction. Which, even if I could find, I probably wouldn't partake in. I'm incredibly private about sex.

Again, if anyone wants to discuss this further, make another thread, but PLEASE keep the actual methods out of it.

Thank you.

Title: Re: What is Jing?
Post by: mystic on June 28, 2013, 04:26:36 PM
youza
to reply or not...

I think I will after I read everything.

Though a brief teaser - lots of things I've seen in the noble paths. One of which (at higher levels) is manipulation of jing and lin kong jing (which is a marvelous, yet complicated thing even after merging yin and yang).

Jing can be restored.

There's a few missing pieces of the puzzle from jing (meaning essence) and jing (application). The representative schools of thought go into a large emphasis on methods of cultivation but not a direct x -> y fashion. I think that is a big issue in terms of cultivation on both sides.

Expect something soonish (typing on a surface and I can't type as much as I really need to).

And yes, Chia is bad news. Don't quote him. In every circle of nei dan (yang shen, lsd, tong ling, etc) the simple story has been this. He has not been adequately trained to do nei gong which builds yang, yin, jing and chi (and if you're doing yang shen, well shen as well). He has been essentially cast out of most circles in Chinese. Not a good quote.

And yes, there are women practices that end with cutting the dragon's head (ending the menstrual cycle) so they can actually continue cultivation. Just thought that should be tossed out there and there are loads of women practitioners (I know at least 5 that have done this successfully).

But I gotta catch up on PMs (I'll make a massive edit of this post to explain a few things). But this is only from the perspective of nei gong honestly and bringing out the yin yang gong. So it won't be as scholastic.

Cheers
Title: Re: What is Jing?
Post by: mystic on September 16, 2013, 03:29:50 PM
One thing I warned when I posted about jing is this discussion will not be a scholastic one. I take a similar stance that my teachers take.

When considering the nine (yes nine) treasures of Chinese Philosophy, of chi, jing, and shen, one realizes that the core focus of any foundation is an understanding of these concepts.

Why?

What does knowledge of these concepts do for you?

On a personal level, the knowledge helped me describe phenomenon that is occurring. It gives a description to the disparate, yet interconnected energy that lies within our body. It also helps open discussions about these concepts as well, which ideally should spurn practice.

But something that I've noticed throughout the time I have been posting again is a constant reference to the concepts.

The concepts are important, if not for a mere discussion at a cocktail party or in a scholastic light. But we aren't necessarily here to discuss things scholastically. We are here to learn, and ultimately here to practice.

Knowledge of Jing only helps when describing phenomenon. But it also helps create another mental block. To say this logical phrase of if this, then that.

Don't fall for such a mental trapping!

Just be and just practice.

If you eliminate the mental obstructions (e.g. I want to open my third eye, feel my jing, project jing, allow shen to travel) and actually practice, no matter what noble path you undertake, you see progress

That's the most important part of this. Practice.

So get out and stand in zz. Or if you want, go to the gym. Go out and perform szg (if you will), or live. You will find that the ingredients collect and form the dan tian. But you still have to practice to actually enter the dan tian.

In that regard, who cares about jing?
Title: Re: What is Jing?
Post by: crab on November 27, 2013, 07:47:00 PM
Hi Koujiryuu,

I'm a newbie to this forum. I am interested in methods for restoring lost jing (after having depleted it). Have a query: In the thread "my own jing practice", you mention "Zhan Zhuang. Detailed here in exercise 5." as one of the ways to develop jing (a portion of your post is quoted below for clarity). When attempting to access this link (http://forums.vsociety.net/index.php/topic,8658.0.html), it gives me the following error: "The topic or board you are looking for appears to be either missing or off limits to you." Not sure why. Is there something I need to do to get access?

Thanks,
Crab


> There are many different ways of developing Jing, including-
>
> * Meditation on the Lower Dantien. If you need a method, look here at my article
> and skip to section 3. This is basically Zen meditation with the eyes closed with the focal point being the lower Dantien.
> * Zhan Zhuang. Detailed here in exercise 5.
> * Any moving Qigong set you already do (Lifting the Sky, Pushing Water, Brain and Marrow Washing Classic, etc) though the results will be far less than Zhan Zhuang
> * Microcosmic orbit - I personally believe you cannot get very far without this one (as I've made clear). Again, find the exercise in "Beginning Daoist Qigong"
> * Eat leafy vegetables like spinach, lettuce, etc and eat nuts... I've heard from various sources that these foods are good for Qi
> * Try not to do any exercises or "techniques" that expend Qi rapidly (such as Qi balls, Qi "blasts" or forcing Qi out of the palms, channeling Qi into others, etc)- conservation is essential

Title: Re: What is Jing?
Post by: Koujiryuu on November 29, 2013, 01:43:46 PM
It works fine for me but I'll contact kobok and ask why it might not be working for others.

Alternatively, you can see the same thing here, but with video instruction that should make performing the exercises easier: http://forums.vsociety.net/index.php/topic,22029.0.html

Hope this helps.
Title: Re: What is Jing?
Post by: aintshine on December 21, 2013, 04:09:19 AM
Thanks a lot guy , I didn't know about Jing , and I was interested . Thanks for information .
Title: Re: What is Jing?
Post by: mystic on February 15, 2016, 04:28:35 AM
There have been a lot of interesting discussion concerning jing in another thread. I think it is a good idea to get some conceptualization of jing for several different reasons. One of which is the misconceptions of jing and the other is to lightly expound on the karmic nature of jing and how it can impact practice. It will be aligned with the intent that the result is to deepen one’s practice of meditation and creation of the LDT and nothing else. Therefore, the assumption(s) are the following:

1. The lower dan tian is a process created by the mingling of original ingredients
2. The lower dan tian is not a physical location in the body but it is expressed physically once the ingredients have formed and the lower dan tian begins to “bubble”
3. This is not a discussion of medical beliefs or the predominant qi gong belief. I cannot state that enough because there is a large distinction between the medical versus nei gong contexts. Much of the knowledge espoused on Veritas is the medical and qi gong method and when applied to the practical or nei gong, there are a lot of gaps and areas of confusion. For more information, there’s a myriad of different texts about it and if you’re really interested, please refer to any Daoist translation by Fabrizio Pregadio or Livia Kohn. 

To begin with, at its simplest, in this context, I’ll refer to jing (essence) as the original water. The original water, if anyone were to find a western equivalent,I’ll refer to the biological processes of life The misconception is most certainly predicated on the belief that this life is the only life, there was no previous life and therefore the purpose is prolonging health (or the predominant Chinese medical model). The problem is from a practical perspective, according to several different long men practitioners and general practitioners of the noble paths, jing itself expressed in several different ways:

a. original essence (yuanjing)
b. pre celestial essence (xiantian jing)
c. true essence (zhenjing)
d. post celestial essence (or sexual essence - houtian jing / jiaogan jing)

Practitioners are reminded of the Bai Yuchan who makes a bold distinction in terms of practice:

Quote
is not the essence of intercourse: it is the saliva in the mouth of the Jade Sovereign

This is further indicated by Wu Shouyang:

Quote
Why is the Original Essence called pre-celestial? The undivided heaven is devoid of image and form. In the Great Ultimate, quiescent and pure, there is something like a movement. The numinous opening, mainspring of immortality, lies in what has nothing prior to itself

When I refer to jing, I refer to pre-celestial jing and not post celestial jing. In addition, I refer to life function including the secretion of the internal organs, hormones, and the regulation of fire and water within the body.  Let’s be blunt for a moment. You lose jing all the time. You lose jing when you wake up, when you shower, when you eat, when you poop, when you get dressed, when you type and so on and so on and so on. Jing is lost all of the time! To make a very bold statement, to connect things from a Freudian perspective, jing is life. You’re going to lose jing by living life.  It is the mother elixir and when any jing is damaged, aging and weakening results. We age, it’s a natural part of life!

note
Here’s where there is a moment of karma in the philosophy of jing. Since jing is pre-celestial, actions (including previous actions and current actions) are predicated by jing. An individual’s health, and even where an individual is born are an expression of the dynamism of jing and karma. To argue jing isn’t karmic, one needs to look no further and consider your current family tree. That isn’t to say that things can’t change and karma cannot be manipulated (because it can), but it is to underscore the impact karma and jing have together. For those who portend to separate it on the notion that karma can’t be proven scientifically, why are you reading this discussion? Jing, like the other three major treasures cannot be truly expressed scientifically.

These concepts don’t begin to mesh for several different reasons. Of note, it is due to misinformation concerning jing. There are multiple erroneous beliefs concerning jing. Once it is gone, you can’t get it back. That is actually false and it is a belief that has been spread in America for a very long time resulting in silly methods all to preserve jing (semen retention and the like). But at its core, semen retention doesn’t rebuild jing. If jing refers to life, it is discord (or imbalance in life) that causes jing to dry and damage. What’s the way to return jing back?

There are two ways actually: directly and indirectly. The two are synonymous to each other. The indirect methods of rebuilding jing impacts the direct methods. Indirectly, a good diet, proper weight lifting (can’t stress weight lifting enough), adequate sleep, cutting down on the sex, and relaxation of the entire being indirectly restore jing because it returns the vessel of the body to it’s origin. A state of homeostatic balance (note I refer to homeostatic as not just encompassing the physical body but also the spiritual and mental framework).

Directly, to build jing, true meditation is key. For a lack of better terming, I will refer to meditation as the point of sustained single minded focus on an internal or external object. In order to achieve that single minded focus, your mind, body and spirit has to be ready. The preparation starts at healing the body, absolutely. But it also continues with the indirect methods of jing conservation.

From a Daoist perspective, meditation begins, and ends with the single minded focus on the lower dan tian. This is where the three day rule becomes important and where a lot more misinformation comes into play. At its heart, jing, qi and shen are used to create the lower dan tian (this is literally laying the foundation), but the process involves replenishing, harmonizing, coagulating, transforming all three treasures. Keep in mind that during the single minded focus on the lower dan tian, a natural outgrowth of this process is a shift of conscious toward the area of concentration. When you meditate and shift your consciousness after sex (for instance), the shen is imbalanced and false fire is rampant. It’s necessary that a cooling period needs to happen and it is usually 3 days to be safe. It has very little to do with Chinese people denigrating sex, alcohol or any of the other “pleasures” of the senses. It’s so you don’t break the lower dan tian.

To really make this context more coherent, imagine the process in this way. You are living in a 2 story house (kitchen is downstairs your room is upstairs). You need to walk downstairs to get some water from the kitchen. You walk downstairs, turn on the faucet, and drink water. You go back upstairs. The sublime nature of the example is one perspective of the shift in conscious when true meditation occurs. The senses and the very nature of ‘I’ shift toward the object of focus. To maintain the focus, the body, mind, and spirit must be harmony.

From this perspective, true meditation is important because it directly rebuilds jing. Zhang Boduan stated:

Quote
As regards spirit, there is an original spirit, and as regards breath, there’s an original breath. Therefore, as regards essence, how could there not be an original essence…when the original spirit appears, the original breath is generated and when original breath is generated, the original essence is born

The above also reinforces Wu Shouyang’s previous quote. The formless heaven, or our true nature, is reached through true meditation. Meditation allows for a modest return of jing because it takes us back to our true nature or the pre-celestial state!  The impact of this is special as indicated by Zhang Boduan:

Quote
Swallowing saliva and ingesting breath are human actions;
only when you have the medicine (development of lower dan tian) can you form and transform
If in the tripod there is no true seed,
it is like using water and fire to boil an empty pot

Therefore, the foundation step as it were is to strengthen, restore, and rebuild the three treasures. But jing is vital to the discussion. In addition, so is the misinformation expressly related to jing. Jing is a lot of things and it is important in several different contexts. Do not take the belief that jing is only lost through sex. Losing sex through jing is one of the largest losses of jing but so is drinking, lack of sleep and a myriad of different processes. It is taking your body, mind and spirit out of balance. When your body is out of balance it is important to get the body back into balance.

This is a very brief and concise discussion of jing from the perspective of the nei gong. There’s a lot that isn’t covered that I did cover previously in this thread. But keep in mind, moderation is key. So is not attaching to things. Those aspects do impact practice and can decrease jing.