The Veritas Society

Discussion Areas => Magick => Topic started by: Kichara on February 19, 2008, 07:49:11 PM

Title: Who is Practicing the IIH?
Post by: Kichara on February 19, 2008, 07:49:11 PM
I was just wondering how many people were and were not using the IIH as their guide in magick. If you feel like posting where you are in the Steps or anything that would be helpful for those starting it or practicing it, feel free. Also, If you have no Idea what I am talking about, IIH stands for Initiation Into Hermetics by Franz Bardon. It is a very good book IMHO and you should read it if you are serious about starting magic but don't know where to start. Here is a link to the book:   http://www.mediafire.com/?6fnxb9ltmwx     I would also suggest going to a site with The Bardon Companion, it is a very helpful book explaining the IIH.  http://www.abardoncompanion.com/
Found that the IIH is also in the veritas library for those of you who don't want to download it: http://files.vsociety.net/data/library/Section%205%20(C,%20I,%20O,%20U)/Bardon,%20Franz/The%20Holy%20Mysteries/Initiation%20into%20Hermetics.pdf

EDIT: Wanted to add Veo's very good Practical Commentary on the IIH. http://thedivinescience.org/documents/IIH-Commentary.pdf

EDIT2: I am adding more links to websites that may be of interest to someone drawn to the IIH.

This is by Suba, I haven't read it in it's entirety, but the parts on the elemental kings is always fun to read. http://www.digital-brilliance.com/kab/tobias010.htm

This is Bill Mistele's page. I like looking through it sometimes. You might like to as well.
http://www.lava.net/~pagios/

EDIT 3: Awesome website where Prophecy and Veos hold classes regularly through out the year. I can vouch for them(classes) being more than satisfying to a Bardonian, Hermetic Magician, or anyone interested in spiritual evolution http://www.thedivinescience.org/
Title: Re: Who is Practicing the IIH
Post by: suiren on February 19, 2008, 09:23:01 PM
I'm about to try step one for the.... fourth(?) time now. IIH is a great system; it just takes a lot of Will and devotion; two things I'm trying to foster the growth of right now. I'll definitely keep "cross-training" though. The Bardon Companion definitely deserves some attention if you do choose to take on the IIH. Also, while the theory section is relatively short, the nature of the regimen is that as you progress you achieve a deeper level of understanding concerning the theory behind the practice. The more you practice, the more precisely you understand what's going on, at least that was true for me.
Title: Re: Who is Practicing the IIH
Post by: TakeV on February 20, 2008, 12:45:42 AM
Currently on Step V, been at it for a while now.
Title: Re: Who is Practicing the IIH
Post by: Wushi on February 20, 2008, 09:14:35 AM
I was wondering, does step III Mental require you to be able to look around with your eyes closed and perceive everything as you do with your physical eyes? and this for 5 minutes?
Title: Re: Who is Practicing the IIH
Post by: Oriens Lvx Lucis on February 20, 2008, 12:21:21 PM
Strictly is the only way to truly practice Initiation Into Hermetics.  If you are not going to practice it strictly, don't bother at all.
Title: Re: Who is Practicing the IIH
Post by: Hech on February 20, 2008, 12:34:49 PM
"Yes, mixed with my other practices," is quite the valid answer as well. You can practice IIH strictly whilst incorporating other things.
Title: Re: Who is Practicing the IIH
Post by: NathanE on February 20, 2008, 08:26:17 PM
no but soon will have time
Title: Re: Who is Practicing the IIH
Post by: Aunt Clair on February 23, 2008, 02:35:58 AM
Quote
I was wondering, does step III Mental require you to be able to look around with your eyes closed and perceive everything as you do with your physical eyes? and this for 5 minutes?
Looking with the brow centre like this will develop your clairvoyance and is best done in dim light with the physical eyes closed in trance . Others find a relaxed state prior to sleep is a good way to practice this and they see through their eyelids instead of through the forehead . As clairvoyance develops other centres beyond the third eye manifest in the brow centre .
I completed the 10 steps with peers locally , then facilitated  another group online and continue to enjoy Hermetic Magick .
Title: Re: Who is Practicing the IIH?
Post by: Big Boss on February 25, 2008, 03:38:45 PM
Step 1... for the third time.
Title: Re: Who is Practicing the IIH?
Post by: Entity on February 29, 2008, 09:19:13 AM
I am ! :wink:
Title: Re: Who is Practicing the IIH
Post by: TheronThemysticles on March 20, 2008, 02:34:28 PM
Strictly is the only way to truly practice Initiation Into Hermetics.  If you are not going to practice it strictly, don't bother at all.

Well said.
Title: Re: Who is Practicing the IIH?
Post by: Shant on March 30, 2008, 10:17:05 AM
Strictly is the only way to truly practice Initiation Into Hermetics.  If you are not going to practice it strictly, don't bother at all.

No problem, anyone just start it! Then you will know your capabilities and the weaknesses you didn’t expect you might have. Like you won’t know how many push ups you can do till you start doing it. Then you will look for ways, maybe in other books, to help you in understanding your weaknesses more deeply and overcoming them by some certain practices, then you can come back and continue your practice on IIH book from where you stopped.
Title: Re: Who is Practicing the IIH?
Post by: Sky Verati on April 02, 2008, 02:17:16 PM
I'm trying it; first time.  I'm finding meditation difficult still.
Title: Re: Who is Practicing the IIH?
Post by: Kichara on April 02, 2008, 05:59:02 PM
I have been told by a few different wise people that the first step is often the hardest and the longest step, but also the most important step of them all. I am still on the first step myself :)
Title: Re: Who is Practicing the IIH
Post by: Aunt Clair on April 06, 2008, 12:50:23 AM
I was wondering, does step III Mental require you to be able to look around with your eyes closed and perceive everything as you do with your physical eyes? and this for 5 minutes?

No the mental practice of Step III is about visualisation and magical imagination . But to actually see in 360 degrees clairvoyantly is possible in meditative trance or mystic projection for example . And there is no reason for not extending this exercise to practice your clairvoyance and astral sight . Sit in Asana in dim light  with the eyes closed . I prefer the throne pose .

Take the mental awareness to the chamber of the third eye sitting within it as a seed of light looking out from it like a great picture window or the wide windscreen of a plane . As you open in protection , deep cleanse breathe , raise energy . Look through the third eye at your hand placed in front of you . Then take the awareness to a point in front of your nose . Then slowly move the sight around at that level to the right all the way around until you are back at the same spot . Then look beneath you, above you without moving your head and try to view the room as if you are a  being floating the size of a speck of light within the mind within the moonstone of the head .

With practice , you can learn to see in 360 as you project . The diamond of the brow centre is the third eye but all of the stones develop the same . A ring of centres will manifest or become imbibed with light from the third eye then behind it , to both sides and then to the bicardinal directions to fully manifest 8 centres . The third eye will be larger than the others . The others grow and then other rings of energy centres begin to stud the Moonstone until the head is like a planetarium of stars .

When these auxilary centres have developed as they do with projection , meditative visions , shamynism , et cetera , then the mystic can view 360 at will with ease . Before this point it seems to be painful to look as if tight unstretched , untested ,the eye moves stiffly , slowly . Be gentle with self and allow time for energy intake to develop you naturally rather then forcing the vision ,looking slowly in a pattern, at first .  
Title: Re: Who is Practicing the IIH?
Post by: Wushi on April 06, 2008, 08:58:27 AM
Thanks ;) I'll start small and work from there
Title: Re: Who is Practicing the IIH?
Post by: Tala on April 15, 2008, 02:35:54 PM
At the moment i'm on step I. I just started a few days ago. It's a very interesting read. Also i'm not just doing IIH alone. I'm reading up on so others. So i can have a variety of sorces.
Title: Re: Who is Practicing the IIH?
Post by: bleaching_light on April 22, 2008, 11:37:20 AM
just started the elemental magic course
but i'm sure i'm going to refer to that source for information
Title: Re: Who is Practicing the IIH?
Post by: Hech on May 13, 2008, 05:53:28 PM
Can you sit in asana for ten minutes? Can you sit thoughtless for ten minutes? Can you concentrate your mind and maintain your composure throughout the day?

All of these things are quickly obtained skills for the budding aspirant that represent control over his or her own immediate physical and mental sphere. They enable you to act properly throughout the day and function more efficiently. These things are good for anyone, not just yogis or magicians.
Title: Re: Who is Practicing the IIH?
Post by: akilalleyne on May 13, 2008, 05:59:22 PM
Can you sit in asana for ten minutes? Can you sit thoughtless for ten minutes? Can you concentrate your mind and maintain your composure throughout the day?

All of these things are quickly obtained skills for the budding aspirant that represent control over his or her own immediate physical and mental sphere. They enable you to act properly throughout the day and function more efficiently. These things are good for anyone, not just yogis or magicians.

Well said. I think Step I to III all mankind should do for the betterment of us all, that is my opinion anyway
Title: Re: Who is Practicing the IIH?
Post by: Kichara on May 13, 2008, 06:09:04 PM
Nohan: I believe I only asked for posts regarding where you were in the IIH or to help those practicing it, please don't post out of Topic in my Threads. I am very weird about it ^_^ (Also if I do something like that in another thread please tell me so I can be sure to keep better watch over my self)

Also, You do follow a guide, I must assume your guide is your intuition though. if you followed NO guide then you would have already reached the goal.

Namaste
Title: Re: Who is Practicing the IIH?
Post by: AB on May 13, 2008, 06:30:02 PM
Can you sit in asana for ten minutes? Can you sit thoughtless for ten minutes? Can you concentrate your mind and maintain your composure throughout the day?

All of these things are quickly obtained skills for the budding aspirant that represent control over his or her own immediate physical and mental sphere. They enable you to act properly throughout the day and function more efficiently. These things are good for anyone, not just yogis or magicians.

Well said. I think Step I to III all mankind should do for the betterment of us all, that is my opinion anyway

I'm sorry but I really have to argue with that, if everyone was that BORING then lots of kids/teenagers etc. would hate the world and yalls cold hard logic so much that they would commit suicide, sometimes too much logic and composure is really bad for the world, sure it might seem nice and perfect for you people but some of us actually enjoy culture and politicians arguing and all that crap.... Hehe "My logic is undeniable"
Title: Re: Who is Practicing the IIH?
Post by: Kichara on May 13, 2008, 07:28:50 PM
I am just going to point to my post above about off topic. Also, it would not be boring if EVERYONE had completed steps I-III because we would live in a totally different world. Not to mentio that the Idea of "boring" should disapeer by Step III I would think...
Title: Re: Who is Practicing the IIH?
Post by: AB on May 13, 2008, 07:49:37 PM
Well everyone wouldn't just "convert" I mean people are ignorant and resistant to change, regardless to if the change would be good for them or not...
Title: Re: Who is Practicing the IIH?
Post by: akilalleyne on May 13, 2008, 09:20:30 PM
I was off topic,Sorry,I am on the amazing Step I. Have trouble with the mental exercises but not the others.
Title: Re: Who is Practicing the IIH?
Post by: Hech on May 14, 2008, 05:16:41 AM
Kichara: If discussion is beneficial to those involved, leave it be. If you would like, it can be moved to another thread, but pet peeves should  never interfere with any sort of mental or spiritual progress.

AB: Having control over one's self does not entail boredom. I am far happier with mental control. I have lived in both worlds; you have lived in one. People can have a lot of fun while maintaining control over themselves. Do not mistake mental and physical control with some sort of dull personality.
Title: Re: Who is Practicing the IIH?
Post by: AB on May 14, 2008, 09:58:56 AM
If everyone had mental and physical control then there wouldn't be any crime, drugs, drugdealers, thieves, and of course the mafia would disappear, and those are the things that spice up life. Sure they make life harder and more complicated but what would the point be in living if there wasn't any challenges for us to face? If everyone was like "you people" then there wouldn't be any mysteries, challenges, or poverty....I hope I'm not the only person who would miss the mafia, drugdealers, drugs, crime, thieves and challenges. So, I think that life is a lot better without complete thought and body control... (I hate typing this much)
Title: Re: Who is Practicing the IIH?
Post by: Rawiri on May 14, 2008, 10:49:25 AM
Er...people can have physical and mental control and still commit crimes, do drugs, have gangs etc. They are not a matter of physical or mental control, unless the person deliberately sees such things as wrong. Which often you will find, many people do NOT. People don't like to see themselves as wrong...
Title: Re: Who is Practicing the IIH?
Post by: AB on May 14, 2008, 11:13:43 AM
Well if- eh screw it I give up...
Title: Re: Who is Practicing the IIH?
Post by: akilalleyne on May 14, 2008, 04:36:07 PM
If everyone had mental and physical control then there wouldn't be any crime, drugs, drugdealers, thieves, and of course the mafia would disappear, and those are the things that spice up life. Sure they make life harder and more complicated but what would the point be in living if there wasn't any challenges for us to face? If everyone was like "you people" then there wouldn't be any mysteries, challenges, or poverty....I hope I'm not the only person who would miss the mafia, drugdealers, drugs, crime, thieves and challenges. So, I think that life is a lot better without complete thought and body control... (I hate typing this much)

You have no idea what the hell you are talking about. You cannot begin to imagine the life that poor people have. Imagine and entire race subjugated to slaverly(not servants mind you) beasts of labour. Can you begin to imagine what it was to be a slave? Can you begin to imagine that there is no hope of feeding your children, that you abandon your sense of morality and sell your body? Let me tell you sir, WHat you have just purported demonstrated a level of simplicity and inhumanity that I didnt expect on a site dedicated to achieving some semblance of the higher self. Alas, there is always one bad apple in every bunch, I apologise veritas. However as a black poor man but not as poor as most in my country,I cannot leave people to even remotely condone what what just said.

I apologise for being off topic
Title: Re: Who is Practicing the IIH?
Post by: Kichara on May 14, 2008, 07:45:15 PM
ok ok I wont be a On topic Nazi anymore. As long as it doesn't get out of hand. but try to have it in some way contribute to helping those who are trying to follow a path similar to IIH style.

akilalleyne, what country do you live in?
Title: Re: Who is Practicing the IIH?
Post by: AB on May 15, 2008, 07:19:46 AM
If everyone had mental and physical control then there wouldn't be any crime, drugs, drugdealers, thieves, and of course the mafia would disappear, and those are the things that spice up life. Sure they make life harder and more complicated but what would the point be in living if there wasn't any challenges for us to face? If everyone was like "you people" then there wouldn't be any mysteries, challenges, or poverty....I hope I'm not the only person who would miss the mafia, drugdealers, drugs, crime, thieves and challenges. So, I think that life is a lot better without complete thought and body control... (I hate typing this much)

You have no idea what the hell you are talking about. You cannot begin to imagine the life that poor people have. Imagine and entire race subjugated to slaverly(not servants mind you) beasts of labour. Can you begin to imagine what it was to be a slave? Can you begin to imagine that there is no hope of feeding your children, that you abandon your sense of morality and sell your body? Let me tell you sir, WHat you have just purported demonstrated a level of simplicity and inhumanity that I didnt expect on a site dedicated to achieving some semblance of the higher self. Alas, there is always one bad apple in every bunch, I apologise veritas. However as a black poor man but not as poor as most in my country,I cannot leave people to even remotely condone what what just said.

I apologise for being off topic

Do not tell someone what they have and have not experienced, and do not judge others from one or two posts. I have been through time and time again, you say that I cannot imagine it yet I have experienced it. I will not argue any further with you, you seem too adamant in what you think about me to see my opinions and my logic, so, I will apologize if I offended you, I'm sorry.
Title: Re: Who is Practicing the IIH?
Post by: akilalleyne on May 15, 2008, 11:41:38 AM
Similarly, I apologise if offended you.
Title: Re: Who is Practicing the IIH?
Post by: Kichara on May 22, 2008, 04:36:31 PM
Hey if you answer that you don't know what the IIH is, and you decide to read it in it's ENTIRETY. Please tell us what you thought of it.
Title: Re: Who is Practicing the IIH?
Post by: Soul_Guardian on June 03, 2008, 06:31:24 PM
I just started so im on step I. its hard meditating for the first time and finding the negative and positive sides of my soul
Title: Re: Who is Practicing the IIH?
Post by: Kichara on June 03, 2008, 07:10:49 PM
You may want to make your mirror again once you make some good progress in meditation. I noticed that mine was much different than when I first made the soul mirrors, after I became more focused/detached.

Also, meditation becomes easier with practice. It is about that simple ^_^.

Namaste
Title: Re: Who is Practicing the IIH?
Post by: Shadow_Dragon on June 06, 2008, 08:16:51 PM
I am attempting Step 1 again, and will do my best to continue training for the week required. I made it up to about day 3 last time, and then stopped.
The reason I am beginning again is because I read a message that Prophecy sent me 6 months ago, on how to begin training in elemental magic. He gave me a pretty cool training schedule, and phase 1 was the first 6 months. If I had stuck with this schedule, I would be done with phase 1 now. But I am not done with phase 1. I realize how much time I have wasted doing nothing, and deeply regret it. So I will begin training again, this time with IIH, mainly because most of what Prophecy told me can be found there.
Title: Re: Who is Practicing the IIH?
Post by: Sky Verati on June 11, 2008, 10:55:33 AM
Any chance I could get a hold of that schedule?
Title: Re: Who is Practicing the IIH?
Post by: WolfRaider on June 21, 2008, 02:35:44 PM
Yes, a schedule would be useful, but you've got guidelines in the IIH itself, and if you combine it with Prophecy's articles on Daily Magical training and his Elemental Magic course you can get a pretty good schedule yourself. A schedule is very relative from person to person, so creating your personal one can be quite beneficial. It can also be used to hone your own organizing skills, which can be a useful thing in general.
Title: Re: Who is Practicing the IIH?
Post by: Pursuit of Knowledge on June 26, 2008, 09:17:43 PM
I practice Hermeticism, along with a bit of psionics on the side.

I try to practice every day, and have been taking baby steps when it comes to regularity because I'm a rather disorganized person, out of laziness though.

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I've only begun practicing with the IIH since early June of this year. I've found that a lot of the exercises such as thought control are things that I have practiced since childhood, I have always done these things. Even with conscious pore breathing it is second nature to me. I have been wondering: Since Bardon was so explicit in his instructions that one should practice exactly what he put forth in his book as his route to success, could I possibly skip those sections which I have already done, or perhaps practice them for less time with little to no consequence? Most if not all of the exercises in Steps I, II, and most of Step III I had become skilled at before the age of 8. When I reached puberty those things had become harder to do as I did not practice them all the time like I did as a child. I became involved in my life in conjunction with the world like everyone else. As a child they were things I simply noticed as a fact of life and worked hard out of curiosity and persistence. Today I still utilize those skills, but they are less of a conscious thing and more of something I just do automatically. Although I am reevaluating myself, it is difficult for me to tell what techniques I am doing since it is ingrained in me; I discover more about myself each day. None the less! I DO require practice, since I am a bit rusty with the techniques. I suppose I should rephrase my query: Will it be harmful/unharmful to practice the steps out of order in IIH? Is it harmful to practice the steps irregularly, say perhaps several times a week, but not back-to-back?

I am not very consistent with my practice although I do several exercises throughout the day including the conscious pore breathing. It seems also that I still have that fear of not letting go and giving it my all, something I did when I was very young and was well-accomplished at. Not to be go off on a different subject, but does one's own innate magical ability have anything to do with his soul and spirituality? I really do not know.

Now, with all due respect to my fellow Veritasians, I say none of this in any bragging way as it may be interpreted, nor do I share these things for pompous reasons. I genuinely wish to know, and I feel that a little background information on my situation would be helpful (I have a tendency to type more than some). It seems to me that I always have to justify my posts somehow and if it may be an inherent flaw I am sorry you must impatiently read through it all. I accept all wisdom gratefully.
Title: Re: Who is Practicing the IIH?
Post by: Kichara on June 26, 2008, 09:57:28 PM
Every person I have spoken with who has either progressed through the steps of the IIH or have reached a point that would be at the higher steps(8 and above) have told me that it is very important that you do not skip around and have a solid practice schedule everyday. So while I personally do not know, the people who I trust a large amount of the time agree that it is dangerous to skip around in the exercises.

I am not sure what you mean by "innate magical ability" do you mean the limit of what one can achieve, or the abilities already available?
Title: Re: Who is Practicing the IIH?
Post by: Felidae on June 26, 2008, 10:04:06 PM
This m or may nou, but long before I even heard of IIH I went through many similair stages as it utlns, thoghnt he xact same. In my view you hav two options, progress ithout and eep on going through simiair staes according to a sel-directed coure of training or go for IIH fullly, if you do either then do it fully. Even if you've progressedthrough something before, doig it again in the context of a different set of exercises will profoundly alter the effect in my view and allow for a different view of things. Either way, you'll want to do it fully, if you do go for a self-directed course of training I would reccomend addin some increased harshness in some sense to prevent you from any way taking an easy way out. This was the opton I took after I decided after long thought that IIH would likely not be suitable for me personally.

Peace, Love, Anarchy
May the Darkness embrace youi,
Sincerely Felidae-ICTX
Title: Re: Who is Practicing the IIH?
Post by: Pursuit of Knowledge on June 27, 2008, 06:55:10 PM
Kichara: By "innate magical ability" in relation to spirituality... as a child does one have more spirituality than they do when they hit puberty and begin to get older, and does that affect magical outcomes? Also, does one have to have a certain spiritual progression within themself in order to manifest magical abilities, even as a child? To answer your question, I meant abilities already available.

I must talk to others about practicing IIH irregularly and out of order. I read somewhere that someone did it, yes not a very solid excuse is it, hmmm... I suppose I must only overcome my own laziness.
Title: Re: Who is Practicing the IIH?
Post by: Kichara on June 27, 2008, 07:18:23 PM
Quote
Also, does one have to have a certain spiritual progression within themself in order to manifest magical abilities, even as a child?

Yes.


As to whether we have more spirituality, I would say no. We just have a much easier time at having complete faith in something happening or being able to do this or that. I have read quite a bit of theory on the aging process and spiritual growth but I am not good at pulling it back out of my mind.

If you would like to read alot more about this then Read the Rosicrucian Cosmo-Conception by Max Heindel. I am afraid the Rosicrucian Fellowship website has deteriorated so that you can no longer read the book for free but I will upload it sometime tomorrow.

Namaste
Title: Re: Who is Practicing the IIH?
Post by: Fenrir on June 29, 2008, 06:37:09 PM
So has anyone here done anything thats worth taking note of from the full body elemental pore-breathing?
Title: Re: Who is Practicing the IIH?
Post by: nublado on July 10, 2008, 10:39:33 PM
greetings all, this is my first post, and it's fantastic to find so many taking this path to heart.  I have a few questions for other aspirants of the I.I.H.

1.  To what lengths should a magician go, to protect the secret of his mirrors, and his journal?  What if another person were to find and attempt to decipher the meaning behind a magicians mirrors?  What danger can this pose to the aspirant and magician alike?  I myself have been somewhat careful, only writing in my journal in various occult scripts, which is cumbersome and less easily reviewed to my inexperience, than is the common Arabic script.

2.  A somewhat lighter question =)  , Bardon never mentions soap while bathing.  But one would assume that if the soap is non-comedogenic (doesn't clog the pours) then it shouldn't be a problem.  What are your views on this?

Title: Re: Who is Practicing the IIH?
Post by: Aunt Clair on July 11, 2008, 05:05:16 AM
So has anyone here done anything thats worth taking note of from the full body elemental pore-breathing?
Full body pore breathing is a useful exercise . The magician may become all one element or one gender or polarity through the expulsion of elemental energies and the influence of others . Pore breathing can assist this endeavour . Pore breathing is useful to heal or comfort self with temperature . Swollen injuries may feel better when chilled and that linjured limb can take ice water energy into the pores . When a sudden chill such as an unusual storm or wind occurs , pore breathing can warm self somewhat . When a bee stings cold water energy can ease the swelling when physical water is unavailable . When emergency first aid is required healing can be strengthened by pore breathing too . A hand can be made cold through pore breathing and cold water energy can be brought down the crown to the heart and to the palm also . So the hand becomes more fully water energy .

Also, does one have to have a certain spiritual progression within themself in order to manifest magical abilities, even as a child? To answer your question, I meant abilities already available.

I must talk to others about practicing IIH irregularly and out of order. I read somewhere that someone did it, yes not a very solid excuse is it, hmmm... I suppose I must only overcome my own laziness.
Like most readers of IIH you have discovered that some work in the  initial steps is naturally occurring and already accomplished to the degree you wish to tackle it . That is fine . There is a hierarchy of dfficulty so that later steps are harder but skipping ahead is not dangerous . Skipping around a lot would probably make you less effective . But if you feel you have the prerequisite skills to tackle a later step, do that . Others have . And sometimes they go back and choose to do the entire book later on.

So I disagree with comments that IIH must be followed strictly . I have been doing this a long time . I have practiced magick longer than most of such naysayers have lived on this planet. I have completed IIH and gone back and facilitated 2 peer groups in the completion of the steps . At this forum, I have endured much derision from this sort . Ignore it . You can do it any way you like .

It is not impossible nor is one an adept in all areas when they have completed the 10 Step Path . In other magical forums such as the pre hack Occult Forums it was recommended to complete the 10 Step Path of the Magician as a scaffolding for other branches of magick too and not just for the use of Hermetics . IIH lends itself of course to Alchemy ,Kabballah and  Ceremonial Magick specifically and generally to Metaphysics and Magick pathworking . Magicians from  other branches have chosen which sections to complete within IIH too.

If you find that you can not complete a part of a step because of the inability to obtain prerequisite material by all means substitute . The many metals required to construct Bardon's magick mirror are inordinately expensive and involved to acquire . One online peer did do this before the great  hack on OF and he posted an image of his mirror . But others used another method to scry and to evoke . The point is that you learn to evoke and scry. The point is not to paint a mirror with expensive hard to get metals .

And there are minor bits that you may choose to avoid because of moral quandries which might be skipped without any impact  such as entering hte mind of another without permission . Many of my peers ask for permission because it is inherently wrong to be invasive like this and seems to be out of character for Bardon to suggest it . Also creating a creature with a built in kill date is unnecessary once you know what you are doing . It is true that the natural decay can cause a benevolent creature to become aggressive and chaotic and this is why the decay is dated but there are ways around this and why kill a pet if it is not necessary . It is offputting to even begin the step when you have to consider killing this creature you become affectionate towards . And it is morally repugnant .

And there are specialist bits and also expert bits that Bardon intimates he has only either heard of or seen but could not do himself .

Those who can not complete a task have often attempted to impose such constraints upon others claiming it is too hard . IIH need not be done strictly in the right order and it is not impossible to complete IIH in one lifetime . Bardon begins the book saying that it is possible to complete IIH and suggests some steps will be done in a few months
In Magick, will , intention and visualisation must confirm to you that you can do it .

greetings all, this is my first post, and it's fantastic to find so many taking this path to heart.  I have a few questions for other aspirants of the I.I.H.1.  To what lengths should a magician go, to protect the secret of his mirrors, and his journal?  What if another person were to find and attempt to decipher the meaning behind a magicians mirrors?  What danger can this pose to the aspirant and magician alike?  I myself have been somewhat careful, only writing in my journal in various occult scripts, which is cumbersome and less easily reviewed to my inexperience, than is the common Arabic script.
In days of persecution such as the burning times it ws necessary for magicians to be secretive . And some feel that this is still important.But curiously today the excuse of TACERE is used to not have to prove one knows what one is talking about magically . So neophytes and novices can hide behind this secrecy "rule" and pretend to be adepts telling others how to do it when they never have done it themselves . Today this has become a popular past time online .

And I subscribe to a different  translation of the Motto of the Sphinx that says Tacere means to hold onto meaning without words rather than be silent . That is in trance we often see better than we hear so it can mean to see visions and know meaning when words can not be heard . It could also mean to understand without having to read it again or hear it again .
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2.  A somewhat lighter question =)  , Bardon never mentions soap while bathing.  But one would assume that if the soap is non-comedogenic (doesn't clog the pours) then it shouldn't be a problem.  What are your views on this?
Soap can be imbibed and used to manifest also . For example , in IIH Bardon teaches how to imbibe what we digest and what we excrete. What we wash off or out of us can be charged magically too . There is an old song from South Pacific "I'm gonna wash that man right out of my hair " We can wash something or someone out of our lives and our universe . Pore breathing can be done with clean skin better than with dirty skin too . I  suppose dirt would really block the pores causing skin infections such as acne . Where as soap could cleanse them or block the pores as you suggest . And there are soaps such as Neutrogena which rinse clear .
Title: Re: Who is Practicing the IIH?
Post by: nublado on July 11, 2008, 11:49:11 AM
In days of persecution such as the burning times it ws necessary for magicians to be secretive . And some feel that this is still important.But curiously today the excuse of TACERE is used to not have to prove one knows what one is talking about magically . So neophytes and novices can hide behind this secrecy "rule" and pretend to be adepts telling others how to do it when they never have done it themselves . Today this has become a popular past time online .

And I subscribe to a different  translation of the Motto of the Sphinx that says Tacere means to hold onto meaning without words rather than be silent . That is in trance we often see better than we hear so it can mean to see visions and know meaning when words can not be heard . It could also mean to understand without having to read it again or hear it again .
Thank you very much for your words, I agree with them very much  :)

My background is not in the western hermetic traditions, but in Buddhism, specifically in vipassana meditation.  It's very important to me that I don't portray myself as knowing more than I do.  When I consider the "rule of silence" I must admit that I have no option but to use the filter of my past experiance with Buddhism, to understand its necessity.  But let me rephrase, silence doesn't seem to be useful in that it protects some secret, it is only that it is useless to speak about a thing which cannot be examined and easily demonstrated using objective science and observation.  It doesn't mean that the experiance of certain mindstates is illusory, only that the words will never capture the reality of the experiance. 

For me, I tend to look at it, not as protection of the self, but of protection of others which might not understand your words, and indeed, who might be soured in their own search in some way due to misunderstanding of your words.  Expectation, frustration, and disappointments can arise in such a case, and can be powerfully detrimental to a neophytes development.  Also, silence is a great tool to work with in restraining the ego, and the negative aspects of the air and fire elements.

I was unclear in my question.  What I meant to ask, is what kind of danger is an aspirant in, were his journal and mirrors (at least the physical depiction of the mirrors in the Magicians journal) to be acquired by a person ill disposed toward the magician, and to what extremes should a Magician resort, when protecting his mirrors from such a person?   
Title: Re: Who is Practicing the IIH?
Post by: Kichara on July 11, 2008, 07:29:34 PM
If they are well made mirrors then it gives one a comlete map of your mental self and a little farther considering how detailedly you make your mirror. I have had some one read parts of my firs journal aloud to a group of highschool kids. AKA it can also be VERY humiliating. Since then I have become much more careful though.

The main risk is that, like with anyone, if someone finds a journal of exactly who you are, if it is up to date they then have all they need to control you by your weaknesses and your fears. They also know which good aspects thy would need to whittle down so they canmanipulate you with more ease.

The point is more of an astral/mental cleaning than the physical one. Use soap, you want the physical body to be as healthy as can be with out taking time out of your practice to reach the next body.


@ Aunt Clair

Do not bring your personal scuffles into this poll or I will sadly have to delete it. However I will say that if one COMPLETED the IIH they should have complete control over the physical world.

Quote
Also creating a creature with a built in kill date is unnecessary once you know what you are doing . It is true that the natural decay can cause a benevolent creature to become aggressive and chaotic and this is why the decay is dated but there are ways around this and why kill a pet if it is not necessary . It is offputting to even begin the step when you have to consider killing this creature you become affectionate towards . And it is morally repugnant .

If I can understand the idea that death is no different than birth, then you with your claimed "experience" should be able to understand this as well.

If you wish to respond to this do so in PM please.

Namaste
Title: Re: Who is Practicing the IIH?
Post by: AB on July 30, 2008, 11:29:22 AM
I'm trying out the IIH, making a soul map (if thats what its called) right now...
Title: Re: Who is Practicing the IIH?
Post by: Hech on July 30, 2008, 11:47:16 AM
Soul Mirror. Those are good, but make sure to stay on thought control until you've truly mastered it. That can take awhile. Hatha yoga helps, but it's hard. Don't burn yourself out with too much practice at first.
Title: Re: Who is Practicing the IIH?
Post by: Steve on July 30, 2008, 04:45:49 PM
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1.  To what lengths should a magician go, to protect the secret of his mirrors, and his journal?  What if another person were to find and attempt to decipher the meaning behind a magicians mirrors?  What danger can this pose to the aspirant and magician alike?  I myself have been somewhat careful, only writing in my journal in various occult scripts, which is cumbersome and less easily reviewed to my inexperience, than is the common Arabic script.
The Mirrors are your strengths and weaknesses, and your journal is a record of your experiences. If you found such writings from someone else, imagine the things you could do with those in order to either help or harm that person.

At the very least, you would know their weaknesses at the time they jotted them down.


Aunt Clair's statements of being able to jump around in the IIH progression is a little incorrect. The first few steps are the basics and should be done in the order they are prescribed and in the manner they are prescribed. Not doing so can cause difficulties in your developments as they are like the trunk of the tree of your development. When you get to the step where you are trying to learn a specific "ability", I forget which one, is when it is not so bad to jump around because then you are just picking and choosing which branches you wish to have on your trunk.

However, remember that they are in a certain order for a reason and while Aunt Clair claims to have taught and learned with others in rather eclectic manners, the few Hermetic magicians here who clearly blow Aunt Clair out of the water in both ability and learning strongly advocate a strict adherance to the IIH, if the aspirant desires to practice straight up hermetics. After the IIH comes other books by Franz Bardon which, for practical purposes, require a pretty much complete command of the practices and theories found in the IIH.

~Steve
Title: Re: Who is Practicing the IIH?
Post by: Shinichi on July 31, 2008, 10:23:08 AM
I am currently on Step One (just started, again... <got distracted the last time>), but I'm mixing in Koboks Beginners Qigong, and some of Prophecy's Daily Practices (Divine Intervention and Japa are two notable ones). I'm also considering Yoga, but I haven't read Veos' article on it yet, so I don't know if I can or not.

So, I voted "Yes, mixed with my other practices." ~_^



~:Shin:~
Title: Re: Who is Practicing the IIH?
Post by: Kichara on August 13, 2008, 07:01:36 PM
You can always do more practices. It is only whether you choose to or not.
Title: Re: Who is Practicing the IIH?
Post by: Reslith on August 14, 2008, 07:23:22 AM
I am (re) reading it.  I have practiced meditation for years so although not perfected I have experience with thought control, am trying to take my time and meticulously journal the mirrors at this point.
Title: Re: Who is Practicing the IIH?
Post by: Shadow_Dragon on August 16, 2008, 12:40:49 PM
I was able to get about 70 right off the bat, but I think I was too detailed.
For the mirrors, how detailed must they be? Specific events or just bad qualities?
Title: Re: Who is Practicing the IIH?
Post by: Kichara on August 16, 2008, 02:22:33 PM
the more specific the better. I have 190 on one list and somewhere around 140-160 on the other.   

Quote
Begin, as Bardon advises, with the analysis of your negative traits.  Write down absolutely everything that comes to mind, no matter how insignificant it may seem.  Place yourself back into the different events of your life and see what there is to find.  Keep track during each day of items that arise in the present.  Meditate each day about who you are and in this way build a deep understanding of your negative side.

Franz Bardon suggests that you continue this analysis until you have a list of at least 100 items.  Many people balk at this total, but I concur that this is a good standard to shoot for.  If you find your list growing beyond 100 items, then go with it and continue until you feel satisfied that you have completely uncovered everything.  If you find it difficult to make 100 items, then continue relentlessly until you do.

From The Bardon Companion .com http://www.abardoncompanion.com/IIH-Step1.html
He also warns right after this to only focus on this process for each mirror for 2 weeks. after that don't focus on the bad list that much and then focus on the white list. continue to list any bad aspects you notice over time, but don't focus on doing it.

Quote
Make notes of all your weaknesses, down to the finest
nuances and variations. The more you are discovering, all the better for you. Nothing must
remain hidden, nothing unrevealed, however insignificant or great your faults or frailties may
be. Some especially endowed disciples have been able to discover hundreds of failures in the
finest shades. Disciples like these possessed a good meditation and a deep penetration into
their own souls. Wash your soul perfectly clean; sweep all the dust out of it.

This is from in Franz Bardon's directions for making the mirrors. I notice that many people seem to miss or unintentionally ignore this end of a paragraph. Also, when one says "hundreds" it means like 200 or 300 not just into the hundred range. If you have more and more faults and all the shades of each fault, then it cuts each larger aspect into smaller pieces to chew when you get to that point. Like I am apathetic, but I don't know how to just tackle apathy and change it into compassion. However, there are plenty of smaller habits that are living under the umbrella of Apathy that I do know how to transmute. So I am able to take a more realistic effort towards achieving compassion, or passion for life in general.



Oh just realized I didn't exactly answer your question ha! The bad quality is what you want but each event may be a different shade of that aspect and so is worth putting down.
Title: Re: Who is Practicing the IIH?
Post by: Shadow_Dragon on August 16, 2008, 05:08:14 PM
The majority of it are events. I realize it isn't that effective, so I'm wondering how to take an event and write it as a weakness? And what if to different events are the result of the same weakness?
Title: Re: Who is Practicing the IIH?
Post by: Big Boss on August 16, 2008, 05:44:08 PM
Shadow Dragon, I believe the idea is to determine the patterns that link all of those individual events together. Most likely, they are not isolated events, but are somehow related to some character fault, such as hotheadedness or fool-hardiness. So, instead of looking at several events that say, ended up with you yelling at someone, you can probably safely assume that you have a temper that could use some work.
Title: Re: Who is Practicing the IIH?
Post by: Kichara on August 16, 2008, 08:51:18 PM
usually if it is an event that you are looking at it will be a combination of different aspects. Like when I don't wake up at 5 so I can do meditations before going to school it isn't JUST laziness. There is also pleasure seeking, avoiding responsibility, and a lack of planning in this situation. so I would list all of those. If you don't think that you have covered that event well enough then you probably are missing something, or you need to add"I over think things" ;P

Remember not to let the list make you depressed, that not only makes you add another thing to your mirror, but it keeps you from making a Mirror and makes it into a List. The Soul Mirrors are mirrors because they are supposed to represent a true you, just like when you wake up in the morning and you see yourself as what you are whether you like it or not at that moment.

The point is to list the weaknesses, there really shouldn't be events on the actual Mirror. Writing them down can help you remember how many time you have done this or that, but you are not listing events.

If it is the same weakness in 2 different events then that just means it is more common in you. this is why you list aspects and not events.
Title: Re: Who is Practicing the IIH?
Post by: Shadow_Dragon on August 17, 2008, 07:55:07 PM
Ah, I get it now. Wow.  :headwall:
Title: Re: Who is Practicing the IIH?
Post by: Kichara on August 17, 2008, 09:32:25 PM
Great! Never stop wondering if you could know more about how to do something.
Title: Re: Who is Practicing the IIH?
Post by: Big Boss on August 19, 2008, 02:57:27 PM
i fail

Why do you say that? What constitutes failure?
Title: Re: Who is Practicing the IIH?
Post by: Kichara on August 19, 2008, 08:35:06 PM
I think they deleted their post BB. Also in this case I could see how someone could think they failed if they could never get past the first step. But I never let that slow me down yet.
Title: Re: Who is Practicing the IIH?
Post by: ThrasherCub on August 27, 2008, 12:23:57 PM
I don't use it as I've discovered my own system quite a while ago that works fine for me.  Though looking through it I've accomplished pretty much all of that, having skipped a few parts.

I'll certainly consider integrating it into my current practices though.
Title: Re: Who is Practicing the IIH?
Post by: Lord Bludwin on September 17, 2008, 10:09:14 AM
ok, sorry to dig this up but i really have to know. those people who say they don't use the IIH system: what the heck have you been reading instead? for well over a year i searched the internet and through books for about two hours every single day and i never found a better system or advanced more quickly than when i followed that book.  :eek:
Title: Re: Who is Practicing the IIH?
Post by: Kichara on September 17, 2008, 04:23:12 PM
Everyone has different paths. And Yoga has a pretty good system as well.
Title: Re: Who is Practicing the IIH?
Post by: Watchtower on September 17, 2008, 08:19:39 PM
Quote
Everyone has different paths.

 :)

Also, some people are not introduced to magic via the internet, nor do they learn primarily from books.
Title: Re: Who is Practicing the IIH?
Post by: Aunt Clair on September 19, 2008, 07:08:16 AM
Aunt Clair's statements of being able to jump around in the IIH progression is a little incorrect. ...However, remember that they are in a certain order for a reason and while Aunt Clair claims to have taught and learned with others in rather eclectic manners, the few Hermetic magicians here who clearly blow Aunt Clair out of the water in both ability and learning strongly advocate a strict adherance to the IIH, if the aspirant desires to practice straight up hermetics. After the IIH comes other books by Franz Bardon which, for practical purposes, require a pretty much complete command of the practices and theories found in the IIH.

~Steve

This is just one more personal insult , Steve. Who  else on this forum has even claimed to have any prowess with Hermetic Magick or with IIH ?  Posts indicate Veritas members have not got past step III . Certainly nobody else seems to be offering any Hermetic advice or understandings in reply to any post in the archives.

Beyond this , nothing else that Bardon wrote is better than IIH or as widely and popularly recieved. Bardon's other books which supposedly are the subsequent Tarot Cards of the Magician are not articulated as well and magicians have found fault with his KTTK and PME these are not highly favoured. IIH is a brilliant classic text but his others are not as worthwhile.

@Kichara, it is peculiar how you deride me for defending myself but then claim I am fault for derailing the thread. If someone here at VS can blow me out of the water as Steve claims and you imply. Whom is that ?
What can they feel clairsentiently?
What can they see clairvoyantly?
What can they hear clairaudiently?
Whom can they call in evocation?
Where have they flown in projection?
What have they manifested ?
What works have they completed?

I did not jump around in my own workings with IIH. Instead I followed Robert Bruce's instruction to read it all the way through and then begin at Step I and worked forward. I completed the Ten Step Path the first time with capable magicians in a home circle and then went again and worked forward and worked towards completion with peers, online.

have been online discussing magick with peers since 1994.  And others whom I am sure are capable magicians do use bits of IIH to assist them in their paradigm. Those who have no idea how to fly should not pretend they understand magick . It is a shame to stifle a truly gifted magician and give them doubts. On VS rather than helping each other to ascend in Magick , the bully boys here deride and disparage and bully new comers and those who discuss real magick. Get out of the armchair and fly. Open your eyes and see.
Then discuss IIH with me.

I am clairvoyant, my true magician peers project to me and I project to them. They speak in projection and they teach me from their Higher Self in dreamstate. Those who can not see or fly don't "blow" anyone "out of the water" but their little rubber ducky. Armchair magicians don't impress me much.
Title: Re: Who is Practicing the IIH?
Post by: Cheezee on September 19, 2008, 09:02:15 AM
Ok, let me put it this way: Most of those who followed the IIH to including step III are probably "better" than those who jumped around in it. Plus, let's face it: we don't have any proof of your skill you claim.
Title: Re: Who is Practicing the IIH?
Post by: Shadow_Dragon on September 19, 2008, 10:02:01 AM
Quote
we don't have any proof of your skill you claim.

And I don't have any proof of Prophecy's claim, yet I believe him.
Title: Re: Who is Practicing the IIH?
Post by: Kichara on September 19, 2008, 11:58:20 AM
Aunt Clair's statements of being able to jump around in the IIH progression is a little incorrect. ...However, remember that they are in a certain order for a reason and while Aunt Clair claims to have taught and learned with others in rather eclectic manners, the few Hermetic magicians here who clearly blow Aunt Clair out of the water in both ability and learning strongly advocate a strict adherance to the IIH, if the aspirant desires to practice straight up hermetics. After the IIH comes other books by Franz Bardon which, for practical purposes, require a pretty much complete command of the practices and theories found in the IIH.

~Steve

This is just one more personal insult , Steve . Who  else on this forum has even claimed to have any prowess with Hermetic Magick or with IIH ?  Posts indicate Veritas members have not got past step III . Certainly nobody else seems to be offering any Hermetic advice or understandings in reply to any post in the archives.

Beyond this , nothing else that Bardon wrote is better than IIH or as widely and popularly recieved .

I don't see that as helping discussion in anyway and asked you not to "scuffle" in this thread. If you are offended by someone please just PM them about it, Aunt Clair.

That applies for others as well. We all know that there are people on Veritas who do not trust Aunt Clair and I am sure there are people who do trust her here, but this thread WILL NOT be turned into a big argument with Aunt Clair. Or a place to talk bad about her.
Title: Re: Who is Practicing the IIH?
Post by: Shadow_Dragon on September 19, 2008, 12:24:36 PM
Taking charge, Kichara- Nice. : P
So, as we can tell, it's probably not a good thing to jump around.
Title: Re: Who is Practicing the IIH?
Post by: Steve on September 19, 2008, 09:48:40 PM
Everyone: Please do not turn this into another thread against Aunt Clair. What I said was what I said, and I will not reply to it any further. It was not meant to start a discussion or an argument; it was simply my statement. She has replied to me, now please just let it lie. Do not carry it further.

~Steve
Title: Re: Who is Practicing the IIH?
Post by: Veos on October 17, 2008, 11:12:44 PM
Do not skip anything in IIH, Practice of Magical Evocation, or Key to the True Kabballah.  To do so or even suggest it is to say that you understand the intricacies of Bardon's system better than he did, which is an insult to the Master.  Skipping is the result of impatience which stems from not having completed even the step II training of the Mirrors of the Soul.

    I will tell you a story about Bardon.  In a previous life he was once the student of a Tibetan Lama.  His Guru gave him a needle and told him to go to a friend of his (the guru's) a long distance away.  Bardon made this journey by foot, and when he arrived the other monk did not care in the slightest about the needle, not even acknowledging it.  The monk sent him back to his Guru.  When arriving at his guru's residence, the Guru told him to take it back to the monk, and then the monk (after the long walk) told him to take it back to the Guru.  Bardon became more and more impatient and annoyed, until finally he realized the necessity of peace and patience (for patience stems from peace) and learned the lesson that he was being taught.  He had made this trip 14 times before he finally came to this realization and his Guru did not send him to the monk again.  This story was told by Bardon to his disciple Dr. M.K and is recalled by the latter in his "Memories of Franz Bardon" which is co-authored with Bardon's son Lumir.  He told Dr.M.K the story for the exact same reason that I just mentioned it. 

    As a side note, my commentary on Bardon's IIH steps 1-8 is coming along very well.  currently I have finished the commentary on steps 1-5 (30 pages worth) and am working on the commentary to Step 6.  I think everyone here who is interested will find it a great help to their progress in IIH.  I have not extended the commentary to steps 9 and 10 because both steps will take even a gifted student 8-10 years to master.  Steps 1-8 will give the student the necessities to progress to magical evocation and practical Kabbalah as per Bardon's instructions at which point he will understand how to properly progress through steps 9 and 10 via the magically-trained intuition and spiritual tutors.   
Title: Re: Who is Practicing the IIH?
Post by: Wushi on October 18, 2008, 01:52:29 AM
I'm looking forward to it!
Title: Re: Who is Practicing the IIH?
Post by: Veos on October 18, 2008, 02:00:49 AM
Aside from my previous post on the former page, I would also like to add that you should never believe anybody who claims to have completed steps 9 and 10 to their full extent unless you have personally experienced their power.  What are some aspects of such a magician?
1) Immortal Mental Body that retains consciousness between lives
2) Immortal Astral Body that will not need to be retrained in future lives
3) Omnipresence, Omnipotence, and Omniscience coupled with divine love
4) Self-Realization
5) Mastery of the spheres
6) Mastery over the material world, astral world and mental world with the Authority of a God
7) Complete Self-Realization
8. Perfect balance of character
9) Clairvoyance, Clairaudience and Clairsentience which knows no bounds
10) Miraculous healing ability through mastery of the electric and magnetic fluids

     Now let us match these up to Bardon according to the fruit which steps 9 and 10 should yield:  1 and 2 are confirmed by the circumstances of his coming into this world, of which such a drastic change took place in the boy Franz Bardon that even his school teacher's noticed, saying how over night (when the Bardon we know took over his body) the personality had completely changed, the verbal expressions had changed, knowledge had changed, and his hand-writing (according to his professors) was completely different.  The testimonies of his son Lumir Bardon, his father Victor Bardon, his secretary Otti Vottavova and his student Dr.M.K attest to 3, 4 and 6.  His books show #5. 7 is implied from 1,2 and 3.  All who knew him could attest to #8, though his physical body could be balanced due to Karma.  Bardon was not allowed do exercise any magic at all upon his physical body due to the original Karma of the body.  9 was demonstrated frequently and gained him a wide-spread fame very quickly.  10 is ultimately one of the reasons he was arrested in the first place, along with the miraculous healings he did through Alchemy. 

    Anyone who claims to have completed steps 1-10 will possess the above attributes.  For this reason, I will say that while every person is capable of doing this, only very few ever do and they are generally few and far between.   What is usually the case with most people who are not bloating false successes is that they have completed steps 1-8, and are working on 9 and 10.  You will work on 9 for years, and can work on 10 for a lifetime.  I do not consider some basic success on the mental realm with steps 9 and 10 (which is how many do the entire training!) to be anywhere near completion, let alone mastery of those steps!   
Title: Re: Who is Practicing the IIH?
Post by: Trillis on October 18, 2008, 06:07:09 AM
That you for that lovely piece of information Veos, I really enjoyed it!
Title: Re: Who is Practicing the IIH?
Post by: Wushi on October 18, 2008, 01:03:48 PM
Keep it coming ;)
Title: Re: Who is Practicing the IIH?
Post by: Saer on October 18, 2008, 02:25:43 PM
Aside from my previous post on the former page, I would also like to add that you should never believe anybody who claims to have completed steps 9 and 10 to their full extent unless you have personally experienced their power.  What are some aspects of such a magician?
1) Immortal Mental Body that retains consciousness between lives
2) Immortal Astral Body that will not need to be retrained in future lives
3) Omnipresence, Omnipotence, and Omniscience coupled with divine love
4) Self-Realization
5) Mastery of the spheres
6) Mastery over the material world, astral world and mental world with the Authority of a God
7) Complete Self-Realization
8. Perfect balance of character
9) Clairvoyance, Clairaudience and Clairsentience which knows no bounds
10) Miraculous healing ability through mastery of the electric and magnetic fluids

     Now let us match these up to Bardon according to the fruit which steps 9 and 10 should yield:  1 and 2 are confirmed by the circumstances of his coming into this world, of which such a drastic change took place in the boy Franz Bardon that even his school teacher's noticed, saying how over night (when the Bardon we know took over his body) the personality had completely changed, the verbal expressions had changed, knowledge had changed, and his hand-writing (according to his professors) was completely different.  The testimonies of his son Lumir Bardon, his father Victor Bardon, his secretary Otti Vottavova and his student Dr.M.K attest to 3, 4 and 6.  His books show #5. 7 is implied from 1,2 and 3.  All who knew him could attest to #8, though his physical body could be balanced due to Karma.  Bardon was not allowed do exercise any magic at all upon his physical body due to the original Karma of the body.  9 was demonstrated frequently and gained him a wide-spread fame very quickly.  10 is ultimately one of the reasons he was arrested in the first place, along with the miraculous healings he did through Alchemy. 

    Anyone who claims to have completed steps 1-10 will possess the above attributes.  For this reason, I will say that while every person is capable of doing this, only very few ever do and they are generally few and far between.   What is usually the case with most people who are not bloating false successes is that they have completed steps 1-8, and are working on 9 and 10.  You will work on 9 for years, and can work on 10 for a lifetime.  I do not consider some basic success on the mental realm with steps 9 and 10 (which is how many do the entire training!) to be anywhere near completion, let alone mastery of those steps!   


Two questions. What makes #7 more complete than #4? And... if one has become properly Self-Realized, then why would it take years and a lifetime to complete steps 9 and 10? I'm working off the understanding that a Self-Realized soul would know the Universal analogies and therefore be able to use this wisdom to its advancement. Using the higher to transform the lower, the way of Masters, if you will.
Title: Re: Who is Practicing the IIH?
Post by: Veos on October 19, 2008, 11:11:14 AM
It was a typo.  Meant to say God-Realized.  Difference in level of consciousness. 
Title: Re: Who is Practicing the IIH?
Post by: Saer on October 19, 2008, 12:00:56 PM
Ah. Thank you.
Title: Re: Who is Practicing the IIH?
Post by: Bad Warrior on October 20, 2008, 12:15:35 PM
So when somebody practices, gets to step 8 and dies in an accident, he has to start again in a new life?
Title: Re: Who is Practicing the IIH?
Post by: Veos on October 20, 2008, 04:50:51 PM
  You always have to retrain the astral body unless the astral body has become immortal with rigorous practice.  The mind will remember, at least subconsciously, its previous training though.  So in such an incident, the person in his next life would be able to progress through the training much faster than normal in recapitulation.  Also, if step 8 has been mastered then he can continue to train in his astral and mental bodies after his physical death for as long as Divine Providence will allow him. 
Title: Re: Who is Practicing the IIH?
Post by: Take A Bow on October 27, 2008, 12:09:38 AM
I think this might be of some interest to everyone here. At the start of college a few years ago, I became a fan of the psychic Edgar Cayce. In studying Edgar Cayce's life readings for the innumerable people who came to him, I found that some people had past incarnations as magicians. The magick described by the readings nicely dovetails into Bardon's Hermetics.

"5277-1 19. The entity then learned from nature, understanding of the manifesting of life in the earth. The entity had the abilities in the hands to make things, to bring to pass in the experiences of others by using what is sometimes called magic. It is natural law of attraction or repulsion of activities by rote of mind, as well as elements in nature itself; for, as is understood by those who would interpret man correctly, the body-physical if alive is composed of all the elements in the earth. Some have antipathy, others have attraction, and the attraction may be used to create, or antipathy may be made to work against or produce thoughts, conditions, emotions in the bodies of others.
20. These the entity used, not too seriously, yet to its own questioning by others.
21. Thus in the present, in relationships which have been with peoples and groups, sometimes a question mark, and yet greater are the abilities of the entity even in the present to use divine science, or divine attraction, to bring to pass in its experience those things which may help or hinder. "

2386-1 30. The name then was Tep-Lepan. The entity gained, the entity lost; gained during the periods of deeper thought and meditation, lost in the period of grudges, the period of attempt to apply necromancy as related to the magic, or the 2386-1 Page 5 reasonings. Magicians then were not merely sleight of hand performers, or prestidigitators, or those who worked mysteries, but rather they were - as would be termed today - the lawyers, or the students of laws of EVERY nature pertaining to the ruling and directing of the subjects of a kingdom or of a household.
"There IS a law, if I could but know!"
33. Again that counsel, that admonition, - know that the answer is ever within self. For, He - the ruler - He, the love - He, the God of the universal forces - will not leave thy questions unanswered, if ye seek to know same in and through Him; and the answer will find materialization in mind and THEN in materiality in self.
2386-1 34. Study then to show thyself approved unto that ideal ye choose; knowing there is the necessity of combining, coordinating, cooperating with the universal forces and consciousness within. "

"1724-4 35. The entity then became much acquainted with the influence in the Alexandrian land, and there we find the activities or interests were in the unusual, the mysteries, those things which delved into the abilities of individuals to use the unseen forces; or to work in what would be called by some MAGIC, by others those influences in which the elementals were used for activities upon the higher tension of the mental forces of individuals. "

--B
Title: Re: Who is Practicing the IIH?
Post by: Rina.Yaxow on November 17, 2008, 09:41:44 AM
I have a question to ask. I'm starting with step one, and I wanna know if I need to follow strictly the described rutine. I mean - showers in the morning? And putting face in the water with tea (for good skin and sight)? I MUST do that in the morning or it'd be okay if I do it at the afternoon? Example at 4 o'clock when I get home? Because mornings are kinda sleepy. I apologize if my question maybe sounds stupid. But I like to complicate things and here I am. XD
Title: Re: Who is Practicing the IIH?
Post by: Rawiri on November 17, 2008, 09:51:08 AM
You don't "have to" do anything. :P The face in the water is more of an 'additional thing' really. However, cold showers in the morning are good if your morning are kinda sleepy, lol.

Personally I wake up, stretch for a couple of minutes immediately, then scrub my body with a brush or rough towel. After that I wash my body with cold water from a bucket or when I can manage, in the tub where I plunge (I'm afraid the desert does not lead well to much cold water, even in the morning...so I have to leave it overnight). Then I get out and just rub myself down with HANDS only and put clothes on over while still slightly wet. You will be warm when you put the clothes on top if the water was cold enough. Then I do a small bit of vigorous exercise just to make it properly warm. It refreshes me for the whole day. :)

So er...to sum up. You don't have to do anything. But it is advised to do the shower thing in the morning. (the face could be done whenever, or not at all). You also want to have yourself doing the practices at times that are spread out through the day a bit if possible. Stretching is also recommended in morning to get day started well.
Title: Re: Who is Practicing the IIH?
Post by: Kichara on November 17, 2008, 12:19:43 PM
The advice for washing the face, the eyes, and the different methods of washing the hands are all suggestions. The shower is the one he talks about becoming a habit in step 2.

Quote
You also want to have yourself doing the practices at times that are spread out through the day a bit if possible.
I have found everywhere I have read or heard the exact opposite. Also from my own experience it is much better to do them all in the 2 times, usually morning and right before bed, that you do your practices. Bardon also says this.

Not that it doesn't help to do one or the other practice when you have sufficient time, but where did you come to the idea that spacing out the practices is better than trying to keep them in a dense block of time?(I am really asking, NOT a rhetorical tool)




The general answer though would be "Yes, follow the routine."  because that is the way he intended it to be done.
Title: Re: Who is Practicing the IIH?
Post by: Rawiri on November 17, 2008, 06:00:28 PM
Maybe I should have been more clear. By spread out I mean the practices should be done more than once a day, at an interval that is somewhat removed from the other period. Fitting in with your 'twice a day' - though besides that, Bardon suggests introspecting whenever you have free time. Doing some thought control before introspection only helps
Title: Re: Who is Practicing the IIH?
Post by: Rina.Yaxow on November 18, 2008, 08:21:08 AM
Thank you very much for your answers.  :)
Title: Re: Who is Practicing the IIH?
Post by: taaraka on November 18, 2008, 08:49:50 AM
wow, thank you  Veos and Take a bow for the interesting reading! Infact all the infomation shared here on the IIH is very helpful. Somehow these  posts got by me until know.
Title: Re: Who is Practicing the IIH?
Post by: Aunt Clair on November 19, 2008, 04:34:05 PM
Aside from my previous post on the former page, I would also like to add that you should never believe anybody who claims to have completed steps 9 and 10 to their full extent unless you have personally experienced their power.  What are some aspects of such a magician?
1) Immortal Mental Body that retains consciousness between lives
2) Immortal Astral Body that will not need to be retrained in future lives
3) Omnipresence, Omnipotence, and Omniscience coupled with divine love
4) Self-Realization
5) Mastery of the spheres
6) Mastery over the material world, astral world and mental world with the Authority of a God
7) Complete Self-Realization
8. Perfect balance of character
9) Clairvoyance, Clairaudience and Clairsentience which knows no bounds
10) Miraculous healing ability through mastery of the electric and magnetic fluids
What do you base this upon , please ? Kindly quote and cite supportive text .

 It would seem that you gave a timeline for practical completion and then argue against yourself within that is nearly impossible to complete IIH . These perspectives seem contrary and in opposition to each other .

I am confident that the completion of the 10 Step Path does not and could not afford such lofty ideals as you have listed here . It is not meant to provide enlightenment . It is a framework for future magical workings . It is a scaffolding and not the "end all, be all ".

And I am confident that Bardon ,who wrote the text, was the most authoritative source . Since he claimed it could be completed and that it would take a few years of practice and dedication to do so , why should others expect that it was an impossible ideal to complete in one lifetime ?

Further to this , it seems to me that by supporting a myth that IIH is unattainable that excuse is given for lack of effort or achievement in that magical regard .

     
Title: Re: Who is Practicing the IIH?
Post by: Dazza on November 19, 2008, 06:31:53 PM
Wow, did we read the same post?

To quote Veos "For this reason, I will say that while every person is capable of doing this, only very few ever do and they are generally few and far between. "

I am sure he wouldnt have written a guide if he thought it was impossible to finnish.
Title: Re: Who is Practicing the IIH?
Post by: Vir Fortunae Lucisque on December 14, 2008, 07:39:09 AM
I'd say that if many had achieved these steps, the world would probably be slightly to greatly different.
Title: Re: Who is Practicing the IIH?
Post by: Csabthehun on December 18, 2008, 01:13:54 PM
IIH serves as the backbone of my current practice and I'm introducing other practices too, primary taken from the Veritas magic articles. Also martial arts and yoga from the beginning of next year.

Are you aware of this IHH commentary: http://highmagic.net/pdf/exposition.pdf

It details Step I of IHH in a quite intriguing way. Worth a look.
Title: Re: Who is Practicing the IIH?
Post by: Ice Wolf on January 13, 2009, 09:15:25 AM
I tooka look at this forum and im going to start as soon as possible. :) :santa:
Title: Re: Who is Practicing the IIH?
Post by: Albatross on February 20, 2009, 05:52:27 AM
Are you aware of this IHH commentary: http://highmagic.net/pdf/exposition.pdf

Thanks very much for this link, Csabthehun. From what I've read so far, I would definitely recommend that anyone on step 1 of IIH read this (it's only 19 pages - not too much of a chore  :P).
Title: Re: Who is Practicing the IIH?
Post by: cowen on May 21, 2009, 03:36:03 PM
Never heard of this actually, and to be honest, while valid, I consider following the paradigms set up by others as a waste of time. Hence why I'm a Chaote.
Title: Re: Who is Practicing the IIH?
Post by: Kichara on May 21, 2009, 06:34:43 PM
Why do you see it as a waste of time?
Title: Re: Who is Practicing the IIH?
Post by: MANUELF on June 08, 2009, 06:50:33 AM
I have practiced 1or2 times the hermetics, but I didn't have the time to bother too much with only ONE of the many virtius of magic (and metaphysics in general)... maybe now, that we have summer, I will...
Title: Re: Who is Practicing the IIH?
Post by: lazarus on June 18, 2009, 10:46:02 PM
New here... Hi everyone..

For what its  Worth IIH is a good guide to start with but i strongly disagree with Master Bardons rigid structure.. If one were to take literally his training mod your like to finish only the first book at a later age in life :teethy: never the less im in the process of experimenting with his 2nd book and the spirits within and i must say i am very satisfied with some of the results.

LVX
Title: Re: Who is Practicing the IIH?
Post by: Violet on June 18, 2009, 11:31:23 PM
For what its  Worth IIH is a good guide to start with but i strongly disagree with Master Bardons rigid structure.. If one were to take literally his training mod your like to finish only the first book at a later age in life :teethy: never the less im in the process of experimenting with his 2nd book and the spirits within and i must say i am very satisfied with some of the results.

Of course it takes time, do you think you can merge with God in a few hours? Actually, I think Bardon's timetables are extremely low, it takes most people considerably more time to get through the steps. And about your success with the second book, I very much doubts that you had any good results (apart from self-delusion) if you haven't completed steps 1-8 from the IIH or an equal system of training. However, if you are satisfied with the results you have, then I shall not try to stop you from 'going on'.

~Tempestum
Title: Re: Who is Practicing the IIH?
Post by: lazarus on June 19, 2009, 12:25:22 AM
alas.. I believe i can be the only one to judge that.. since i was the one who did the evocations. .Like I said I did not do the practices through bardons method but incorporated my own (primarily through methods suggested by Konstantinos) None the less I was very much convinced that Magick is foremost Subjective.

So much for delusions eh?

 
Title: Re: Who is Practicing the IIH?
Post by: Dea on June 20, 2009, 05:41:02 AM
The thing is, you really can't use his second or third books without first completely at least the first 8 steps in his IIH. To do that takes years.

Quote
If one were to take literally his training mod your like to finish only the first book at a later age in life
If you're looking for a "fast" way, you really shouldn't be reading the IIH. If you're looking for a way to true union with God and mastery over yourself (and consequently your environment), then by all means continue learning from the IIH. Just don't expect to finish it in less than...oh, 5 years perhaps? That's really only if you devoutly practice, too.
Title: Re: Who is Practicing the IIH?
Post by: Violet on June 20, 2009, 08:07:48 AM
The thing is, you really can't use his second or third books without first completely at least the first 8 steps in his IIH. To do that takes years.

Quote
If one were to take literally his training mod your like to finish only the first book at a later age in life
If you're looking for a "fast" way, you really shouldn't be reading the IIH. If you're looking for a way to true union with God and mastery over yourself (and consequently your environment), then by all means continue learning from the IIH. Just don't expect to finish it in less than...oh, 5 years perhaps? That's really only if you devoutly practice, too.

I thought it took about 5 years to complete Step 1-8, and then another 5 years or more for step 9, as well as 5 for step 10. So, I would say it would take you at least 15 years of devout practice. The thing is, if you are not going to practice Magic (mind the capital 'M') for the rest of your life, don't bother even starting. Either way, Dea, wasn't there something about this in Veos' commentary? (The timetables of the IIH, I mean.)

~Tempestum
Title: Re: Who is Practicing the IIH?
Post by: Veos on June 20, 2009, 01:01:19 PM
New here... Hi everyone..

For what its  Worth IIH is a good guide to start with but i strongly disagree with Master Bardons rigid structure.. If one were to take literally his training mod your like to finish only the first book at a later age in life :teethy: never the less im in the process of experimenting with his 2nd book and the spirits within and i must say i am very satisfied with some of the results.

LVX




    And thus Bardon would call you a scholar and not a magician.  Anyone can pick of PME and experience something, perhaps even a little success.  But they won't get the full experience or anywhere near the full benefit.  For full success in evocation you MUST be clairvoyant, clairaudient, good at condensing the 4 elements, able to work in akashic trance, and at least mental project as well as move magically (with the mental and astral bodies).  If you can do this already then experimenting is a good thing.  If you can not do this then you are not experimenting, but rather you are simply fooling around and will make a mistake soon enough. 
Title: Re: Who is Practicing the IIH?
Post by: Meer on June 26, 2009, 08:36:00 AM
I'm right at the end of step 1, and about to move to step 2.

Title: Re: Who is Practicing the IIH?
Post by: xmikas on July 17, 2009, 12:21:28 PM
I am .... and "Yes, mixed with my other practices,"

Started my first steps this weekend.  :rolleyes:
Title: Re: Who is Practicing the IIH?
Post by: Demo on July 17, 2009, 01:29:52 PM
for quite a while i have been going through the theory section via the pdf, taking notes on it and stuff, and soon a hard copy will be in my hands and then i plan to start the actual steps
Title: Re: Who is Practicing the IIH?
Post by: Kichara on July 17, 2009, 03:18:35 PM
cool, have you looked at the commentaries?
Title: Re: Who is Practicing the IIH?
Post by: Demo on July 18, 2009, 02:59:17 PM
you mean the bardon companion?  i have not sat down to fully read it, but have given it a good looking at, but im very excitted to start it, for a long time i have been desiring a training guide, but until now everything seemed to easy, to hokey, or just down right stupid (lots of new age stuff) so when i picked this up i immediately knew this would be it
Title: Re: Who is Practicing the IIH?
Post by: Kichara on July 18, 2009, 04:09:57 PM
There is also a commentary written by Veos who is a teacher on this website. A Bardon Companion is more Theory commentary and Veos' is more of a Practical commentary. Together it gives you as good a view on the IIH as you'll get from reading. Of course, a lot of it changes once you have been practicing for a while.

The link is in my first post , for both. ^_^
Title: Re: Who is Practicing the IIH?
Post by: Demo on July 20, 2009, 12:51:30 PM
well, after reading veos' guide for the first step, i have begun the first step

and now for the first step of the thousand mile journey
Title: Re: Who is Practicing the IIH?
Post by: Durante on August 09, 2009, 05:11:44 PM
I've been strictly following the Mental Training for some time now. However to be honest, I've been less adamant in the Physical and Spiritual training. I'm working to correct this.
Title: Re: Who is Practicing the IIH?
Post by: Prokopton on October 20, 2009, 05:25:57 AM
Very strictly. I incorporate other things but IIH is the basis of everything and I do all IIH exercises.
Title: Re: Who is Practicing the IIH?
Post by: Abrazor on December 04, 2009, 12:46:12 AM
I have just started. I have been in step 1 for a week now.  I have background in buddhist meditation, chi kung and the I Ching.  Now I have also just started on the Tarot.  I feel this is the next step in my development.

A lot of the mental training and visualization reminds me of stuff I have done before.  When I was a Uni student I was heavily into mediation and got it to the point where I rarely had a thought in my mind unless I was deliberately thinking of something.  It really makes things clear.  A lot of the visualization also reminds me of some self-hypnosis stuff I have done.  It is just amazing to see how all the different practices come together in this.  Exciting!

A question: how many of you really bathe in cold water?  Do you take a cold shower?  Pour cold water over yourself?  How long did it take you to adjust to the cold and did you persist through winter?  I am finding it tough.  About brushing your skin to open the pores, a lot of the new bathing stuff around is good, the porous stuff for removing dead skin.  I come out of the shower very pink and it feels great, and my skin is much smoother now.

I look forward to going through the steps and hope to find like minded individuals here at Veritas to share together or even a mentor if I am lucky.  I am in Japan so there is nothing here even closely related, unless you were to consider zen or shinto training.
Title: Re: Who is Practicing the IIH?
Post by: Searching on December 04, 2009, 06:25:06 PM
A question: how many of you really bathe in cold water?  Do you take a cold shower?  Pour cold water over yourself?  How long did it take you to adjust to the cold and did you persist through winter?  I am finding it tough.  About brushing your skin to open the pores, a lot of the new bathing stuff around is good, the porous stuff for removing dead skin.  I come out of the shower very pink and it feels great, and my skin is much smoother now.

At night when I shower I use warm water, but before I get out I spend a minute or two "rinsing off" as it were with the cold water. Then when I wake up in the morning, I take an only cold shower for a couple of minutes.

The first time I tried, I eased myself into it. I had warm water, then turned it a little cooler, and stood there until I felt comfortable. Then I turned it cooler, until comfortable. Eventually I found this part within myself that was (and is) comfortable in almost any situation. The water got to be as cold as possible but it didn't really feel that bothersome. After that as soon as I turn on the cold, it only takes me a couple seconds of going "brrrr, cold!" before I get into the "zone".

I really do feel more refreshed after taking a cold shower to a warm shower.
Title: Re: Who is Practicing the IIH?
Post by: Necuno on December 23, 2009, 04:09:22 AM
started with iih. just bit confused as to exactly what is suppose to happen in step 1 where you are suppose to just observe your thoughts.  should the thoughts turn into pictures and or just some oddly stream of audio ? because when i'm relaxed and start the session i just get a blank mind or something starts up and whoos it's gone and into blank mind again. apart from that i'm also busy with visualization + introspection. doing the iih together with initial steps of modern magick by donald craig. found a site related to iih (http://www.hermeticresearch.org/index.php?name=PNphpBB2&file=index&c=2&sid=4e2c9b6915bbdf9e1d8cc5e4ac7c8ae2); maybe the english descriptive of setup 1 is bit confusing or i just don't seem to get the whole exercise as to what i'm suppose to do exactly lol...
Title: Re: Who is Practicing the IIH?
Post by: Necuno on December 26, 2009, 09:24:19 PM
started with iih. just bit confused as to exactly what is suppose to happen in step 1 where you are suppose to just observe your thoughts.  should the thoughts turn into pictures and or just some oddly stream of audio ? because when i'm relaxed and start the session i just get a blank mind or something starts up and whoos it's gone and into blank mind again. apart from that i'm also busy with visualization + introspection. doing the iih together with initial steps of modern magick by donald craig. found a site related to iih (http://"http://www.hermeticresearch.org/index.php?name=PNphpBB2&file=index&c=2&sid=4e2c9b6915bbdf9e1d8cc5e4ac7c8ae2"); maybe the english descriptive of setup 1 is bit confusing or i just don't seem to get the whole exercise as to what i'm suppose to do exactly lol...

Hi,
        This exercise what your looking to do, is actually remember your thoughts. As you sit observing your thoughts rushing by your field of vision, you want to make a conscious effort to try and actually remember as many of them as you can.

I would sit with a clock and try to make it for a minute, then 2, 3 up to 5 and then 10 minutes. If you find yourself getting distracted, realize this and immediately bring your mind back to remembering your thoughts.

On the second exercise your focusing on just one subject as your thoughts rush by and try to distract you. If you get sidetracked, once again immediately bring your attention back to the one thing, that you were originally focusing on.

Then on the third exercise, your trying to be totally objective to anything and everything inside your mind, so that no thoughts distract you from being totally seperated from any inner  mind distractions from the exercise.

If you can make it through that first exercise, then second and third, you'll open up a flow of magik power that's hihidng right behind those veil of thoughts in your mind.

This exercise is the beginning of the development of focus and concentration, which is a huge plus for visualzing for goals, spellcasting and manifestation work.



thanks this helps :)
Title: Re: Who is Practicing the IIH?
Post by: Kichara on January 25, 2010, 10:38:01 PM
In Thought Observation/Control the goal is to let the thoughts pass by without attention, judgment, or even much recognition. Just become passive to them.

The next is to focus on one thought to the exclusion of all others.

The last is the lack of thought completely.

You should read Fr. Veos's Commentary, it would have answered this for you.
Title: Re: Who is Practicing the IIH?
Post by: virtual.storm on February 24, 2010, 03:53:12 AM
Hi, I have a question.

I´m practicing the IIH at step one for a month already and started to have a problem about sleep.

I usually have to sleep less than 8 hours a day to exercite, a thing I never done successfully before. I have this need for sleeping 8hours, and sleeping 7 to 5 hours a day during a month brought me to a state where its really difficult to meditate because of the tendence to sleep and the cold shower alone doesn´t get rid of it.
It extends to my daily life, making things like study more difficult also.

Any suggestions?
Title: Re: Who is Practicing the IIH?
Post by: Azathoth on February 24, 2010, 01:20:00 PM
I am by no means an expert of magick, but I have some ideas that may help you, and should be generally applicable to anyone in your situation. However, the suggestions are to be taken with a grain of salt as I am no expert in time management.

First, take a look at how you spend your time and what tasks you do during your time. Ask yourself if you could move some of those tasks around in order to free up time in the mornings and evenings for the exercises outlined in Step 1. For example, say there is a television show you like to watch before going to bed, but you should be using that time for the exercises. Perhaps you could record the show to watch later. Or, see if you could cut out some activities all together. (Perhaps you don't have to watch that show after all.)

This step may seem obvious, and right away you may say that you are truly busy with tasks that cannot be rearranged or eliminated. This may be true, but before you assume that, I ask you to take careful note of your schedule over the next week or so. Literally write down how you spend your time, and then examine it with a critical eye. Bardon suggests you keep a magical diary, which you only use for your studies. I consider this activity to be related so closely to my magical activities that keeping my own schedule in my magical diary feels natural. Your beliefs may differ on the matter, but whatever you decide, make sure you keep track of your schedule and make it accessible.

The next thing to do is to see if some of your tasks could be shortened. This part is tricky, because many tasks require time and care and are not to be rushed through, especially your magical practices. However, there are a number of things you can do to shorten your tasks. Consider what parts of it are completely unnecessary. If, when having breakfast in the morning, you also like to read the paper, stop reading the paper (as Bardon says you should focus on eating anyway!) and you will find that you eat much more efficiently.

Another step is to see if you can combine tasks. Again, this requires caution, because some tasks require focus and concentration. In particular, never combine your magical practices with anything. Some things can be combined, though, especially if one requires mental focus and the other does not. Perhaps you could lift weights, work out on an exercise bike, or do ironing while watching television (Just be careful not to burn anything). Perhaps you could get an audio book and listen to it on your MP3 player while taking a jog.

If you are still in school, you should learn good study habits. Naturally you do not want to rush through studying. (You may want to, but you should not, I should say.) However, do you often find yourself wasting time trying to start studying? I know I do. But if you are able to have the discipline to start studying, it will go much faster.

The next thing you need to examine is how you sleep. If you feel you are not getting enough sleep, you may not be getting "good enough" sleep. Our current knowledge on the subject relates this to REM sleep. Although a lot of companies try to tell you that their product will increase your REM sleep so that your sleep will be better, and some people may say that strange sleep schedules are the way to go, you should consult your doctor during your next routine checkup if you are worried about the sleep you are getting. (Or, if you are finding it is affecting you very adversely, schedule an appointment.) In particular, see how long it takes you to get to sleep, as this is one of the things the doctor will ask you. This can have an effect on the sleep you are getting. Only the doctor can advise you on how to improve your sleep.
Title: Re: Who is Practicing the IIH?
Post by: Violet on March 02, 2010, 11:24:16 AM
Look here. (http://www.abardoncompanion.com/Remember.html)
Title: Re: Who is Practicing the IIH?
Post by: Mindlessinvalid on March 02, 2010, 12:52:15 PM
That goes against all of bardon's teachings though.

The "as above so below" from hermes and "like begets like" from aristotle are the primary messages in bardon's works.

So to actively do anything is only going to make thoughts come faster, you need to learn to not react to extraneous thoughts, which kills the need for more extraneous thoughts.

Ask a psychologist and they'll tell you the same thing. I believe Franz Baron's Thought control could treat ADD fairly well if it weren't for the fact that ADD would interrupt it.

Actively doing anything will not work without any sort of expectation and delusion effect because you are essentially making more thoughts not less.

You are referring to crowley's thought banishment technique.

I don't think crowley spent more time being an occultist than bragging about being an occultist.
Title: Re: Who is Practicing the IIH?
Post by: Mindlessinvalid on March 02, 2010, 01:56:23 PM

I've been doing it and it works.

Unrepresentative Sample. One person getting results can mean anything. Get enough people that can honestly say they've gotten results that way and you'll have a basis for making your accusation. Also, can you cite the sources of misinterpretation? Because the majority of people interpret his words contrary to your claim. Statistically, unless there is a mass delusion, words are interpreted correctly unless ciphered via an allegory.
Title: Re: Who is Practicing the IIH?
Post by: Violet on March 03, 2010, 07:33:18 AM
He's wrong, your suppossed to remember as many of your thoughts as you can. I've been doing it and it works.
As other people have already pointed out, the fact that you say that 'it works' does not mean anything. I am not trying to say that you are wrong here, but the fact that this exercise benefits you in some way does not mean that you did the exercise in the way Bardon wanted people to do the exercise, per se.

Quote
The third thought control exercise is the one, where you become passive and objective to your thoughts. It doesn't make sense, that you would do the same exrecies twice.
This is not true. You do not become passive and objective towards your thoughts in the third mental exercise of the first step. In this exercise, your mind must become silent, there must be no thoughts at all, they must not simply be ignored. Of course, ignoring once thoughts is a step towards this goal, but it is not the goal itself.

Quote
This person mis-interpeted Bardon's words.
Really? What Rawn posted on his website makes sense to me. Though I can not speak for everyone here, I know that many people who practice the Initiation into Hermetics consider Rawn Clark to be a trained magician, and believe he has successfuly completed this course of instruction. Nevertheless, if you believe this is not the way this exercise should be practiced, then by all means ignore everything I said, and continue practicing. ;)
Title: Re: Who is Practicing the IIH?
Post by: Steve on March 03, 2010, 10:00:06 AM
Bardon, IIH, Pages 34-35 of the pdf
<<< First part of exercise
Magic Mental Training (I)
1. Thought Control: discipline of thoughts, & subordination of thoughts ~
Take a seat in a comfortable chair or lie down on a settee. Relax the whole body, close your
eyes and observe the train of your thoughts for five minutes, trying to retain it.
At first, you
will find that there are rushing up to you thoughts concerning everyday affairs, professional
worries, and the like. Take the behavior of a silent observer toward these trains of thoughts,
freely and independently.
According to the mentality and the mental situation you happen to
be in at the moment, this exercise will be more or less easy for you. The main point is not to
forget yourself, not to lose the train of thoughts, but to pursue it attentively.
Beware of falling
asleep while doing this exercise. If you begin to feel tired, stop instantly and postpone the
exercise to another time, when you intend not to give in to tiredness. The Indians sprinkle
cold water on their faces or rub down the face and upper part of their bodies to remain brisk
and not waste precious time. Some deep breathing before you begin will also prevent
tiredness and sleepiness. As time goes on, each disciple will find out such little tricks by
himself. This exercise of controlling thoughts has to be undertaken in the morning and at
night. It is to be extended each day by one minute to allow the train of thoughts to be pursued
and controlled without the slightest digression for a time of 10 minutes at least after a week’s
training.

This space of time is destined to the average man. If it should not suffice, everyone can
extend it according to his own apperception. In any event, is advisable to proceed very
consciously, because it is of no use to hurry, development being quite individual in men. On
no account go further before the preceding exercise is perfectly under control.
The attentive disciple will realize how, at the beginning, thoughts rush on to him, how
rapidly they pass before him so that he will have difficulty to recollect the lot of manifold
thoughts. But from one exercise to the next, he will state that thoughts come up less chaotic,
moderating little by little, until at last only a few thoughts emerge in his consciousness,
arriving, as it were, from a far distance.

The keenest attention ought to be given to this work of thought control, as it is very
important for magic development, a fact that everyone will realize later on.
Providing that the mentioned exercise has been thoroughly worked through and everyone has
a complete command of it in practice, let us pass over to the mental training
>>>

<<< Second part
Up to now we have learned to control our thoughts. The next exercise will consist in not
giving way in our mind to thoughts obtruding themselves on our mind, unwanted and
obstinate.
For instance, we must be able not to occupy ourselves any longer with the tasks and
worries of our profession when we come home from work and return the family circle and
privacy. All thoughts not belonging to our privacy must be set aside, and we ought to manage
to become quite a different personality instantly. And just the other way round: in our job, all
thoughts have to be concentrated in it exclusively, and we must not allow them to digress or
wander home, to private affairs, or elsewhere.
This has to be practiced time and again until it
has developed into a habit. Above all, one ought to accustom oneself to achieve whatever one
does with full consciousness, whether in professional work or in private, regardless whether
the point is a big one or a trifle.
This exercise should be kept for a lifetime, because it is
sharpening the mind and strengthening the consciousness and the memory.
>>>

<<< Third part
Having obtained a certain skill in this exercise, you may turn to the following one. The
purpose will now be to hold onto a single thought or idea for a longer while, and to suppress
any other thoughts associating and obtruding with force on the mind. Choose for this purpose
any train of thoughts or ideation or a suitable presentation according to your personal taste.
Hold onto his presentation with all your strength. Vigorously refuse all the other thoughts that
have nothing to do with the thoughts being exercised.
At first you probably will succeed only
for a few seconds, later on for minutes. You must manage to concentrate on one single
thought and follow it for 10 minutes at least.
>>>

<<< Fourth part
If you succeed in doing to, you will be fit for a new exercise. Let us then learn how to produce
an absolute vacancy of mind.
Lie down comfortably on a bed or sofa or sit in an armchair and
relax your whole body. Close your eyes. Energetically dismiss any thought coming upon you.
Nothing at all is allowed to happen in your mind; an absolute vacancy of mind must reign.
Now hold on to this stage of vacancy without digressing or forgetting.
At first, you will
manage to do so for only a few seconds, but by practicing it more often, you will surely
succeed better at it. The purpose of the exercise will be attained if you succeed in remaining
in this state for a full 10 minutes without losing your self-control or even falling asleep.
Carefully enter your success, failure, duration of your exercises and eventual disturbances into
a magic notebook (See details under the heading “Magic Soul Training”). Such a diary will
be useful to check your progress. The greater the scrupulousness you use in doing so, the more
easily you will undergo all the other exercises. Prepare a working schedule for the coming day
or week, and most of all, indulge in self-criticism.
>>>



Now, to take only the bold portions for each part, we come up with these as the exercises:
First Part:
Take a seat in a comfortable chair or lie down on a settee. Relax the whole body, close your eyes and observe the train of your thoughts for five minutes, trying to retain it.
Take the behavior of a silent observer toward these trains of thoughts, freely and independently.
The main point is not to forget yourself, not to lose the train of thoughts, but to pursue it attentively.
It is to be extended each day by one minute to allow the train of thoughts to be pursued and controlled without the slightest digression for a time of 10 minutes at least after a week’s training.
The attentive disciple will realize how, at the beginning, thoughts rush on to him, how rapidly they pass before him so that he will have difficulty to recollect the lot of manifold thoughts. But from one exercise to the next, he will state that thoughts come up less chaotic, moderating little by little, until at last only a few thoughts emerge in his consciousness, arriving, as it were, from a far distance.

Second Part:
The next exercise will consist in not giving way in our mind to thoughts obtruding themselves on our mind, unwanted and obstinate.
All thoughts not belonging to our privacy must be set aside, and we ought to manage to become quite a different personality instantly. And just the other way round: in our job, all thoughts have to be concentrated in it exclusively, and we must not allow them to digress or wander home, to private affairs, or elsewhere.
Above all, one ought to accustom oneself to achieve whatever one does with full consciousness, whether in professional work or in private, regardless whether the point is a big one or a trifle.

Third Part:
The purpose will now be to hold onto a single thought or idea for a longer while, and to suppress any other thoughts associating and obtruding with force on the mind. Choose for this purpose any train of thoughts or ideation or a suitable presentation according to your personal taste. Hold onto his presentation with all your strength. Vigorously refuse all the other thoughts that have nothing to do with the thoughts being exercised.

Fourth Part:
Let us then learn how to produce an absolute vacancy of mind.
Energetically dismiss any thought coming upon you. Nothing at all is allowed to happen in your mind; an absolute vacancy of mind must reign. Now hold on to this stage of vacancy without digressing or forgetting.


Examination, by Steve.
Part One:
Relax and observe your own thoughts. Do not interfere with them, but neither forget them. Watch them and remember them (and though Bardon doesn't state it, I advise that the next step after familiarizing one's self with one's own thoughts is to them let them go, so that one can remain independent from the thought-stream).
Your mind will quiet itself over time as you just sit and observe.
(And just because I can barely resist such a tempting possibility, "Be mindful of your thoughts, young Padawan."

Part Two:
As we go about our daily lives, we must give full attention to each task we do, not allowing disassociated thoughts from distracting us.
(Obi-Wan: "But Master Yoda says I should be mindful of the future." Qui-Gon: "But not at the expense of the moment. Be mindful of the living Force, my young Padawan.")

Part Three:
Pick a thought and think about it. Actively ignore any other thoughts from entering your mind, as you continue to think solely upon the one thought you already chose.
("Always remember, your focus determines your reality.")

Part Four:
Empty mind meditation. Do not think.
(Luke: "But tell me why I can't..."  Yoda: "No, no, there is no why. Nothing more will I teach you today. Clear your mind of questions.")

~Steve
Title: Re: Who is Practicing the IIH?
Post by: Mindlessinvalid on March 03, 2010, 10:13:43 AM
This you remember the thoughts, but you don't think about them. Thinking makes more thinking. It's like the iron shirt for your mind. You lightly tap yourself everywhere and keep adding more and more pressure every day until you can withstand sledgehammers to the head.

you give it just enough thought to hit a thought stream, then stop thinking and observe.

activity to promote inactivity goes against hermetics which is about sympathetic vibrations.

thinking vibrates more thinking. You want to be able to resist the vibrations so your mind can be focused on one thing instead of many.

Besides, it's the general consensus of practicing magicians that you either observe or banish thoughts to make them go away.
Title: Re: Who is Practicing the IIH?
Post by: Mindlessinvalid on March 03, 2010, 10:25:27 AM
That isn't necessarily true. More people have been doing it our way, than your way. More people get results our way than your way (so far it's just you an a few stragglers as far as I can tell, but I don't have a large enough random sample to make a good call.)

BE wary when dealing with mental phenomena, psychological functions cause many aberrational results merely out of preconceived notions.
Title: Re: Who is Practicing the IIH?
Post by: Violet on March 03, 2010, 11:13:26 AM
My way does that, your way doesn't do anything to distrupt that stream of thoughts, so henceforth that thought stream is always going to be interferring in your progress and sabotaging everything that your trying to do with magic.

It would take too much time to comment on everything you have said since my last post, so I will restrict myself to this. First of all, please do not accuse people of practicing things the wrong way saying 'it does not work your way' even if you have tried it out yourself. I can say from personal experience that watching the thoughts and being a passive observer towards them will slow them down and make less thoughts come in. Not to mention the fact that we are not trying to disrupt the stream of thoughts, I simply let then fade away of their own because I did not linger on these thoughts. Thus, the thought stream does slow down when practicing this exercise the way I believe Bardon described it.

Second, these streams of thoughts are only always going to be interfering in your progress and sabotaging everything that you are trying to do with magic, as you nicely put it, if you do not proceed to the other mental exercises of the first step. The first exercise calms the mind and prepares the mind for concentrating on thoughts for a longer period of time, but ultimately does not do this all by itself. On the other hand, I stand open to the idea that someone who practices thought control long enough, will eventually get a completely silent mind, as such a person will gradually pay less and less attention to these thoughts, until there is only an empty void. Nevertheless, I do not only practice this first exercise, and I do not feel obliged to test this.
Title: Re: Who is Practicing the IIH?
Post by: Mindlessinvalid on March 03, 2010, 11:41:54 AM
Defilements are like a cat, feed it and it'll keep coming around. Cease feeding it, and it will not bother to come around again.


If you feed your thoughts, they will come. Stop feeding them and they won't.

I personally have had success, but personal anecdotes and testimony are useless in a debate of what does and doesn't work. What is of use is a stack of testimonies of others. Do you mean to tell me that every successful hermeticist is wrong?
Title: Re: Who is Practicing the IIH?
Post by: Mindlessinvalid on March 03, 2010, 11:59:45 AM
I just said "I personally have had success, but personal anecdotes and testimony are useless in a debate of what does and doesn't work."

so don't tell me that I haven't told you what I've experienced. What I've experienced is irrelevant. It's biased, it's got little substance to it until more similar testimonies are bundled together.

You seem to ignore valid points in favor of a "I got results, so I must be right even though many others do something else and also get results!"

Besides, your quote of Bardon's work earlier was incomplete. It was taken out of context so was not valid.

Steve highlighted the relevant bits when he posted the entire passage and you ignored that too.

I'm not sure why I even care, because it's not my job to put you in the same line as everyone else.

I guess I'm defending my point of view, but even that is pointless because it's not necessary as nothing is at stake and I'm talking to a brick wall.
Title: Re: Who is Practicing the IIH?
Post by: Mindlessinvalid on March 03, 2010, 01:10:16 PM
I've already forgotten what the OP's intent was for this thread on hermetics (no pun intended).

I've been practicing the first exercise in step one.

The reason being is that I want to do things thoroughly.

I've gotten great results so far. I can actually distinguish thoughts from each other. Before, my trains of thought went off in every conceivable direction at once. Now I can sit and enjoy mental silence without so much as a whisper of thought.

It's very peaceful, and it makes me feel happy for some reason.

I'm very glad I stumbled onto IIH, without it I would not have this peace of mind I currently have gained.

I also read a bit of the kybalion commentaries every day and meditate on the meanings of the maxims each commentary is about, as well as the commentary and how the maxims and interpretations of those maxims differ or compliment my own beliefs.
Title: Re: Who is Practicing the IIH?
Post by: Necuno on March 04, 2010, 09:31:22 AM
Quote
First Part:
Take a seat in a comfortable chair or lie down on a settee. Relax the whole body, close your eyes and observe the train of your thoughts for five minutes, trying to retain it.
Take the behavior of a silent observer toward these trains of thoughts, freely and independently.
The main point is not to forget yourself, not to lose the train of thoughts, but to pursue it attentively.

still not exactly sure what i should be doing from what i understand i should

1) be relaxed
2) let the thoughts run through my mind
3) per each thought notice what it is about... aka i bumped my toe and it was sore
4) try to remember all of them

...that it ?
Title: Re: Who is Practicing the IIH?
Post by: Mindlessinvalid on March 04, 2010, 02:57:37 PM
Forgetting yourselfi s cheating more or less.

You have to keep a neutral mind while remembering you exist in order to get the right kind of mental workout that will allow for more complicated workings.
Title: Re: Who is Practicing the IIH?
Post by: Amnesia on March 15, 2010, 03:39:45 AM
You can think of thought control as a procedure of moving colored objects from one side to another.

Let's say that I'm standing between two tables, on the right there are many objects with various shapes and colors and I have to move every single object with my hand to the left table.

First, I can't move the objects while focusing on something else like watching a movie (I can't watch my thoughts and think of something else at the same time).

I should reach my hand to every object and feel it while I'm looking at it, then move it to the left being aware of what I'm doing and what color and shape the object is without getting involved, i.e. this color doesn't match this shape or that object would look better with another color pattern... (I should watch every thought that passes by being aware that I'm watching it without getting involved, i.e. this thought makes me depressed or that thought reminds me of a specific place...).

After moving the object I should focus on the next one without remembering what the previous one was and continue the procedure at the same rhythm without forgeting what I'm doing. (After the thought passes by I should be aware of the next one frogetting completely the previous and repeating the procedure for every thought that comes without forgetting what I'm doing).

If I'm to remember the shape and color of every object I moved I'd distract myself from the watching procedure and try to force a particular thought into my mind and that's not the goal of the exercise.

What happens if I forget that I'm watching my thoughts and just watch being unaware of what I'm doing (like day dreaming). It's like watching the objects being moved automatically from one side to another without using my hand or noticing what shape and color the objects have.

This is my understanding of the exercise. I've tried to formulate it like that in order to avoid the misunderstanding of describing the various states of mind that ones may experience during the procedure.

I might be wrong so please feel free to share your opinions.
Title: Re: Who is Practicing the IIH?
Post by: Mindlessinvalid on March 15, 2010, 07:47:05 AM
That's what I got from it.
Title: Re: Who is Practicing the IIH?
Post by: Kichara on March 16, 2010, 12:36:47 AM
That is a wonderful way to describe it. though you want to eventually move towards the automatic method, until it eventually begins to run out of objects.
Title: Re: Who is Practicing the IIH?
Post by: Melchizedek on April 21, 2010, 09:57:58 AM
On this system of magic, the reason why people fail or maybe get confused and have doubts is that they

1.) Proceed with the exercises too quickly, because they want to find out where the collection of exercises will lead them to. It leads to a mastery of the 4 elements. If you know this from the beginning, you won't be in such a rush to get to the end of the book to find this out.

2.) When people start out with this system, they don't know why their doing the exercises and they don't know what the end goal of doing them is.

The end goal of doing this system of magic is to attain perfect balance and harmony of the 4 elements( Fire, Air, Water and Earth}. When you achieve this you will have no other places to go to in magic.

The whole Universe comes out of the Akasha, with the fire, air water and earth elements coming out from the Aklasha. By balancing and harmonizing perfectly with the 4 elements, you make room inside yourself for all the power, the vital/chi energy to do all the things that Franz Bardon did.

All your negative emotions are from having too much of anyone particular element(fire, air water earth) inside yourself. When you balance these elements out, inside yourself  you open up the pathway to have a mastery of powers, such as clairvoyance and all those abilities associated with sight. With the air all those abilites with hearing, such as clairaudience.

You also will develop a mastery of the Electric/Magnetic fluids at this point, which would give you the power for amazing healing abilites, because everything to do with the human body is based on a perfect balance of the electric/magnetic fluids for any one particular part of the body.

If you keep in mind from the beginning of this training that your end objective is to master the 4 elements, so as to allow all the power you can handle inside yourself, you will know where and why you are doing IIH.
Title: Re: Who is Practicing the IIH?
Post by: Dea on April 21, 2010, 06:33:26 PM
Quote
1.) Proceed with the exercises too quickly, because they want to find out where the collection of exercises will lead them to. It leads to a mastery of the 4 elements. If you know this from the beginning, you won't be in such a rush to get to the end of the book to find this out.

2.) When people start out with this system, they don't know why their doing the exercises and they don't know what the end goal of doing them is.

I'm not disagreeing about the failing or getting confused, but I believe these reasons are a bit mistaken. Most people already know what the IIH is for. They fail or have doubts because they feel that they don't need to follow all of the exercises. They jump around, or try something once or twice and then go on, as opposed to devoutly practicing. It isn't lack of knowledge, it's lack of patience and discipline that fails most people. Most know what the point of the IIH is, so telling them won't do anything to make them any better at it.
Title: Re: Who is Practicing the IIH?
Post by: Melchizedek on April 22, 2010, 08:21:46 AM
Whenever people talk about doing this system of magic, they always talk about doing the exercises, but never talk about the introduction part of the book. The majority of people do the exercises, hoping to have the purpose behind the magic system revealed to them, at some part of their journey. This according to Bardon himself is the wrong approach.

It takes the average person 10 years to master this system of magic. Any person can succeed at it in this time period. If you take a pendulum and dowse out this question, you get that anyone can achieve waht Bardon is talking about.

People read this book and then try to hurry along, becuase they want to get magic powers from doing the exercises.

If you start with the introduction and read it and re-read it, then the whole way to proceed with the exercises flows out from this understanding behind it. Then the idea of 10 years literally begins to feel like seconds and your no longer in a hurry to try and blast through the entire book.

I also dowsed out with a pendulum the number of people who have mastered this magic system, all 3 books like Franz Bardon and I get 223 people, since Bardon's death. That's not alot of people in 50 years
Title: Re: Who is Practicing the IIH?
Post by: Dea on April 22, 2010, 07:03:49 PM
Quote
The majority of people do the exercises, hoping to have the purpose behind the magic system revealed to them, at some part of their journey.
During the exercises, I believe Bardon tells them of the point of each. It is not the purpose behind the system that people want revealed, it is the authenticity and any potential magical faculties that they wish to quickly produce.

Quote
If you start with the introduction and read it and re-read it, then the whole way to proceed with the exercises flows out from this understanding behind it.
I did so, multiple times, but it wasn't until Veos wrote of the IIH that I understood it better.

Quote
I also dowsed out with a pendulum the number of people who have mastered this magic system, all 3 books like Franz Bardon and I get 223 people, since Bardon's death. That's not alot of people in 50 years
All 3 books? 223 people? That is a good number. Not many have this available to them, and of those who do, 223 managing to master the system is great.

Please understand, I'm not disagreeing just to be contrary, this is just my own experience on the matter.
Title: Re: Who is Practicing the IIH?
Post by: Merkat on May 04, 2010, 09:51:14 AM
I hesitated about posting but here goes.  Bardon, in my opinion has a system that works and works quite well if one has the patience to keep up the work in spite of what roadblocks life throws at you.  I have been a student of the Occult for many years and have always felt a semse of comfort when I came back to Bardon...in spite of the ventures into other methods and systems.  With Bardon I feel I am at home and will stay at that home and not let myself become distracted ever again.

My one ambition in life is to make sure I do not waste this incarnation and by being a diligent student of Bardon, perhaps this wish will be fulfilled before I take my last breath.

My best wishes to all of you.
Merkat.
Title: Re: Who is Practicing the IIH?
Post by: VitaumHermético on June 09, 2010, 07:57:11 AM
helo people! :)
i've been practing step one tought control in trone position like Bardon recomends, doing 15 minutes...  and when past 10 min or more i begin to feel a strong heat coming down to my chest and going to feet and hands. After 5 minutes felling this I cant even concentrate in exercise because my hand almost floats in the air like a ball of fire was under it (float felling not happens all time but only when I make more them 20 minutes of exercise) but the heat is there all the time!
This become when I got more comfortable in position and when I clear the "macros" thoughts of the day like Veos said... before that I felt nothing

what's this?
Title: Re: Who is Practicing the IIH?
Post by: michael.25 on June 09, 2010, 12:22:21 PM
they're usually just random pointless sensations due to sensory deprivation during practice.  Ignore them and carry on. :)
Title: Re: Who is Practicing the IIH?
Post by: Aunt Clair on June 09, 2010, 04:03:55 PM
... my hand almost floats in the air like a ball of fire was under it (float felling not happens all time but only when I make more them 20 minutes of exercise) but the heat is there all the time!
This become when I got more comfortable in position and when I clear the "macros" thoughts of the day like Veos said... before that I felt nothing
what's this?
One possibility to consider is that you could have filled the body with air energy. For example when the magician deep cleanses and purges the body of heavy earth energy flushing this out with water energy and intakes fire energy the resulting air will cause a separation of the astral body and you will feel lift. This method will allow you to project from the body and attain a higher state of consciousness. Some magicians have described these partial separations of the hand as similar to the feeling when a hand floats up away from the body while bathing in a tub in a relaxed state.
Title: Re: Who is Practicing the IIH?
Post by: Karlykins on June 15, 2010, 07:42:55 AM
I'm just starting on step one for the first time. I just received the book and am starting to read through it. It really just grasps my attention and makes me glad that I am starting this. It makes me look forward to my future so I may look back and see all of my progress.
Title: Re: Who is Practicing the IIH?
Post by: Aunt Clair on June 18, 2010, 11:22:06 AM
You are right it is a brilliant book and Bardon really invites the reader along the journey in a very encouraging and supportive manner. I am going through the steps again for the fourth time. Each time there is something to revise to develop and to learn. I suggest you post a journal online even if it is a private email to your self. It is useful to have an digital backup and you can search a digital file without too much trouble using the control +f  function .
Title: Re: Who is Practicing the IIH?
Post by: kuzamu on June 18, 2010, 09:12:47 PM
I just started a week ago and it will be pretty fun once i get the hang of it.
Title: Re: Who is Practicing the IIH?
Post by: Melchizedek on July 05, 2010, 04:34:20 AM
I think the idea of keeping a journal on your progress, is an excellent idea. The one thing about studying this book, is that it's almost as if it's in a hidden code, even though you can plainly see what each exercise is about. If you experince results from doing the exercises, that don't match up to what your reading about in the book, it means your compensating for your lack of understanding, by doing something incorrectly in practicing the exercise

Starting out with this system it's easy to do this, due to the fact that the entire system is a "Secret Intiation into the Secret Parallel world of Heremetic Science".

This is the science that the ancient egyptians practiced, if you can fiqure this out, you could uncover the secrets to how the pyramids where built, because the secret to their construction is contained within thios realm of science. How to mummify bodies, so that they are preserved for 1,000's of years.

How to build a great world empire, like the egyptians did. It was through their mastery of heremitic sciences that they ruled the world at the time that they did


I found a webpage that contains the vibrational state of being of each of the 10 steps from IIH. Scroll down to the divine vibration menu for the 10 steps and click each one. You can feel the vibrartory state that you would be at, if you completed each step of IIH correctly.






http://www.franzbardon.net/english/bardon.htm
Title: Re: Who is Practicing the IIH?
Post by: Willi on July 06, 2010, 06:10:10 PM
I once found this website and was wondering if it was for real. I never really got to stop and try to feel the vibrations because I always thought it was somewhat pretentious.
"Get the blessings by meditating on an image on a screen" seems sort of unfitting for me. I'd like to know what others around here think about this.
Title: Re: Who is Practicing the IIH?
Post by: Melchizedek on July 08, 2010, 03:14:05 PM
I once found this website and was wondering if it was for real. I never really got to stop and try to feel the vibrations because I always thought it was somewhat pretentious.
"Get the blessings by meditating on an image on a screen" seems sort of unfitting for me. I'd like to know what others around here think about this.

You should feel the vibrartory energy from each candle. They are spot on. Whoever made that webpage is probaly the best Bardon student alive
Title: Re: Who is Practicing the IIH?
Post by: Willi on July 08, 2010, 04:58:10 PM
Weren't you supposed to feel only the energy for your own step?
Title: Re: Who is Practicing the IIH?
Post by: Melchizedek on July 08, 2010, 07:10:51 PM
Weren't you supposed to feel only the energy for your own step?

Yes, you are suppossed to feel the energy for any particular step that your working on. You should have a vibrartory energy that corresponds to that partiuclar step, when you've completely accomplished that step.

I looked at each step and saw that the energy, became denser and denser, with each step as it progressed towards step 10.

I was just commenting, that I could see that each step had the proper veibrartory energy for the completetion of each step.

I was wondering who owned the site and who made the pictures, because they did a perfect job.
Title: Re: Who is Practicing the IIH?
Post by: Willi on July 09, 2010, 08:26:14 AM
I should try it, but I have trouble defining where is the east from my standpoint.  :P
Title: Re: Who is Practicing the IIH?
Post by: Melchizedek on July 09, 2010, 08:56:36 AM
I should try it, but I have trouble defining where is the east from my standpoint.  :P

Go to a dollar store and buy a cheap compass. Or take/make a pendulum and dowse out which direction is east, from where you are.
Title: Re: Who is Practicing the IIH?
Post by: Searching on July 09, 2010, 05:19:54 PM
I should try it, but I have trouble defining where is the east from my standpoint.  :P

Open a window, or go outside, find the sun.

Orient yourself from that to get a general direction.

After that, make slight modifications to your angle based on what feels right. Your body knows.
Title: Re: Who is Practicing the IIH?
Post by: Kell on July 22, 2010, 09:01:20 PM
Starting step 1 tonight  :D
Title: Re: Who is Practicing the IIH?
Post by: Willi on July 23, 2010, 02:24:45 AM
Congratulations. I won't say good luck, because that is for the weak.  :P
Title: Re: Who is Practicing the IIH?
Post by: sayspo on August 02, 2010, 09:55:46 AM
I just got a real copy of the book.  I dont keep up with things that arent tangible(i.e. ebooks) .  I wanted to get serious with the book, so I purchased it.   I got a hardcover copy of the book for $12.50 + shipping.  

Title: Re: Who is Practicing the IIH?
Post by: Culukeh on August 02, 2010, 10:29:56 AM
I am very interested in the whole system. However I feel I lack the will to pursue it though I love to read people's experiences with it and Rawn Clark's lectures are really great.  At the moment I feel caught between a draw of two systems, this one and another which appeals to me but that I have no real proof that I actually get anywhere spiritually with it. I'm not quite sure right now, but what these systems have in common is their underlying push for spiritual growth and becoming the Higher Self.
Being at a philosophical crossroads is no fun. :(
Title: Re: Who is Practicing the IIH?
Post by: Willi on August 02, 2010, 02:09:45 PM
You could tell us what is this other system and someone might be able to guide you. Anyways, most people around here will swear by the IIH.
Title: Re: Who is Practicing the IIH?
Post by: Jesse9209 on August 02, 2010, 02:15:02 PM
IIH alone will give good spiritual growth however its best supplemented with some yogic practices such as pranayama or kriya yoga. Magic and yoga compliment each other in many ways so if your after spiritual growth and desire magical training IIH and yoga is a very good way to go.

What is the other system your interested in?
Title: Re: Who is Practicing the IIH?
Post by: Culukeh on August 02, 2010, 03:52:32 PM
Its an odd little system by the name of Night Magick.  http://www.nightmagick.com/
Before I say much else, I will say this. I am not certain of everything in this system of course. The worldview is similar to something I hold myself, from the little I know of energetics. Its...difficult for me to explain exactly. I believe we are all children of the soul of this world, and I think striving to become your Oversoul  and training your bodies, subtle and gross, to hold more and more of its vibration is an excellent goal.
That being said, comparing it to something like IIH it seems...woefully incomplete. I wonder, as I've wondered for a system like Theosophy, if a lot of the training was 'offline' so to speak, as in, your spiritual guides filled in a lot of the blanks. I don't think I know any one who has walked this whole path and stands completed (I say this as if you could easily do such a thing in one life, but...). However here and elsewhere I have seen the work of people who have completed IIH and beyond. They have become their Higher Selves which I personally think should be the goal of magick (just my opinion!).
The trees bear fruit according to their nature. Night Magick does speak to me, on some subtle level.  So does Bardon. Does it matter at the end if the goal is the same? Perhaps not, but I guess my cautious nature bleeds through and I want to be certain I do not wander into a spiritual dead end. I am also practical;  I wish to see progress and want to do as little damage to myself in the process as possible.
Title: Re: Who is Practicing the IIH?
Post by: Circlebound on August 03, 2010, 02:45:38 PM
   I am following the course work of Initiation into Hermetics. Like most others who have commented, I am also one step one. I wish success to all others on the path.
Title: Re: Who is Practicing the IIH?
Post by: Jesse9209 on August 03, 2010, 08:34:24 PM
I gave the website a quick look over, at the very least its got a fluffy look to it. The fact that he uses so many terms like night magic, dark power, ect. Just say to me that he gave it that name just so it'd seem cool or mysterious. IIH is more straightforward and gives more direct practices. While he does seem to have at the very least a rudimentary understanding of magic and magical philosophy his system does not seem all that effective to me. Doing rituals before training the mind is not a very effective way to go about doing things, and the mental training he does give does not seem nearly as in depth as in IIH. Just some things to think about.
Title: Re: Who is Practicing the IIH?
Post by: Culukeh on August 04, 2010, 11:13:12 AM
Haha, yeah. Honestly I'm not exactly sure of what this soft spot is. Probably because it was the first  'system' of magick I came across. It didn't keep my attention because it was 'cool' or 'I want to do this because I can scare people' or something like that.. That wasn't -isn't- the point to me. I'm a pragmatic woman at heart so it makes even less sense.
But in all likelihood I probably will attempt IIH. At the very least there's a lot of support and people I can ask things when I mess up- and I shall. I'll have to give the book a good reread however, flip through some articles. I want to know everything I can before I start, although it's like being at the base of a huge mountain and wondering incredulously to yourself "I'm going to climb that?"
Title: Re: Who is Practicing the IIH?
Post by: Aspiring on August 04, 2010, 11:37:01 AM
Im practicing the IIH and I am at step one like many others of course. I just read Veos' commentary on the steps and it cleared things up a lot, such as why am I not able to retain emptiness of the mind. I can hold onto a single thought for 10 minutes but now i realize that I really need to work on my thought observation and get rid of those "micro-thoughts" to achieve emptiness of the mind.
Title: Re: Who is Practicing the IIH?
Post by: taranis on August 05, 2010, 03:00:04 PM
I'm also practicing with Bardon's IIH. I'm actually on step 3, precisely in elemental breathing, vital force accumulations and its practical applications. Last year I thought already that I have mastered step 3 and went to step 4, practicing the translocation of the consciousness and the condensing of the elements in my body but unexpected self-doubts forced me to go back to my soul mirror and the former steps although I've made really good progress in translocation of consciousness. When I look back I have to say the months I spent for renewing my soul mirror and the following balancing was very well invested time. Occasionally I even dropped the exercises for nearly a month, just to start them again now. The good thing about doing the steps twice or thrice is that you accomplish them faster than you did the first time and most likely you will find unknown depth in the exercises which you haven't seen before.
The most important experience I've made by practicing IIH is that hastening in your development is of no use.
Title: Re: Who is Practicing the IIH?
Post by: constantine on August 15, 2010, 05:35:41 PM
i've been working with IIH since i started, on and off, due to other various interest but have recently jumped to it again - full throttle.
after doing some reviewing and refresher course on the material, i found that i am about done step 05 - going to step 06.
Title: Re: Who is Practicing the IIH?
Post by: superzeno on August 23, 2010, 11:50:11 PM
I'm just now reading veos commentary in studying hermetic magic and its quite fascanating
Title: Re: Who is Practicing the IIH?
Post by: Wahrheit on September 06, 2010, 12:34:47 AM
I just got the hard copy of IIH. 356 pages vs 170 on the e-book. Haven't started, and I won't finish for awhile because I think reading ahead beyond the steps that I accomplish will distract me from focusing all of my attention on the current exercise. I don't plan on reading pass the theory until I have enough understanding of it to practically preach it >.> Anybody have personal insight on the content of the e-book vs the hard copy?
Title: Re: Who is Practicing the IIH?
Post by: alg on September 12, 2010, 04:15:34 PM
Quote
I really need to work on my thought observation and get rid of those "micro-thoughts" to achieve emptiness of the mind.


One of well know principles is the Law of Attraction. By thinking ˇI need to get rid ofˇ micro though what do you think actually happening? :D




Title: Re: Who is Practicing the IIH?
Post by: Kichara on October 04, 2010, 09:58:25 PM
Quote
I really need to work on my thought observation and get rid of those "micro-thoughts" to achieve emptiness of the mind.


One of well know principles is the Law of Attraction. By thinking ˇI need to get rid ofˇ micro though what do you think actually happening? :D






I think you are getting rid of the micro-thoughts.

I'm just now reading veos commentary in studying hermetic magic and its quite fascanating

Isn't it though?

I just got the hard copy of IIH. 356 pages vs 170 on the e-book. Haven't started, and I won't finish for awhile because I think reading ahead beyond the steps that I accomplish will distract me from focusing all of my attention on the current exercise. I don't plan on reading pass the theory until I have enough understanding of it to practically preach it >.> Anybody have personal insight on the content of the e-book vs the hard copy?

I did the no reading ahead thing for a while, but when I read ahead and saw why I was doing the beginning steps, it made alot more sense. The epilogue is written as if you had just read the whole book before accomplishing it all, too, if I remember correctly.

The hard copy totally pwns the e-book, in my opinion, though I read the two or three internet versions just to get a full scope. There are 2 or 3 hardback translations too.
Title: Re: Who is Practicing the IIH?
Post by: Doug on October 11, 2010, 07:35:34 PM
What are some of your opinions regarding the Golden Dawn and he Book Modern Magick: Eleven Lessons in the High Magick Arts?
Title: Re: Who is Practicing the IIH?
Post by: DannyCorso on October 12, 2010, 06:05:02 AM
I just got the hard copy of IIH. 356 pages vs 170 on the e-book. Haven't started, and I won't finish for awhile because I think reading ahead beyond the steps that I accomplish will distract me from focusing all of my attention on the current exercise. I don't plan on reading pass the theory until I have enough understanding of it to practically preach it >.> Anybody have personal insight on the content of the e-book vs the hard copy?

356 pages vs 170?  Ok, you got me interested too.
Can anyone expand on what is missing from the ebook?

I'm off to googling for the hard copy too.
Title: Re: Who is Practicing the IIH?
Post by: Kichara on October 27, 2010, 12:31:42 AM
What are some of your opinions regarding the Golden Dawn and he Book Modern Magick: Eleven Lessons in the High Magick Arts?

Never read Modern Magick, and I've never been interested in reading it, honestly. I found what I was yearning for, and then I found a teacher. Why fix something that isn't broken?

Golden Dawn is pretty cool. I wouldn't trust anyone who said they had the entirety of it's practices published, because even then the spoken tradition of the Order would remain veiled.
Title: Re: Who is Practicing the IIH?
Post by: c0nfus3d on November 26, 2010, 01:01:33 AM
Kichara, the mediafire link is broken or the file has been deleted somehow. Do you have any other source for the IIH? Or is the hardcopy more valuable than the e-book? Thanks.
Title: Re: Who is Practicing the IIH?
Post by: Kichara on November 26, 2010, 09:27:15 PM
The Hardcopy is without doubt more valuable than the book, but I will look into getting a new link in the next couple days.
Title: Re: Who is Practicing the IIH?
Post by: c0nfus3d on November 27, 2010, 04:09:28 AM
Don't sweat it Kichara, I already got the PDF file that, luckily, I got from you from a thread somewhere here in Magick section (I forgot  :confused:).
Title: Re: Who is Practicing the IIH?
Post by: Pursuit of Knowledge on November 29, 2010, 05:35:54 PM
You can buy a soft-copy from Amazon, but the hard-copies will set you back if you get one brand new. I bought mine a year or two ago for $150, still factory-sealed in plastic. If it were any other book I wouldn't have done it, but for the sake of it being the IIH and a core book of Hermetic practice, I thought it was justified.
Title: Re: Who is Practicing the IIH?
Post by: c0nfus3d on November 29, 2010, 09:14:38 PM
I have come accross the 170-page softcopy (PDF) and the 357-page one of the IIH by Franz Bardon. There is no doubt in my mind that the latter is more valuable than the previously mentioned which leaves me wondering if both copies give the same amount of learning in terms of practice? And what would make the latter copy more valuable -- more content? more explanation? Illustrations? (Havent made a thorough scan of the 2001 Merkur Edition)

The only answer I could think of is that the 1987 Edition is more straightforward and that conforms with its own time of publishing. The same could be said for the 2001 Edition (357 pages) which caters the modern aspirants of which cares to elaborate more than its predecessor?

Either that or I made no exact conclusion.
Title: Re: Who is Practicing the IIH?
Post by: Mindlessinvalid on November 30, 2010, 05:47:24 AM
some copies include include commentaries, that doesn't necessarily make it more valuable.

 It's just stuff written by other people to interpret the work.
Title: Re: Who is Practicing the IIH?
Post by: Kichara on November 30, 2010, 11:46:15 AM
It's just stuff written by other people to interpret the work.

Yeah, sometimes those other people are Adepts. So I think it does make it more valuable :P

I say the hardcopy is more valuable because every hardcopy I have read has been better at conveying the ideas of the book and the practices than the electronic copies I have read.

I would never pay $150 for it, though. I just got the, I think, $25 paperback from Merkur. I have also read an older translation that I liked aswell.
Title: Re: Who is Practicing the IIH?
Post by: trismegistos on December 07, 2010, 03:00:34 PM
Here's the e-book for you guys,  I would advise you buy the actual copy though, a used more original one is what I prefer, because I just feel like used magic/mysticism/occult books have a sort of energy to them from passing through the hands of different aspirants.

http://www.scribd.com/doc/301820/Initiation-into-Hermetics-by-Franz-Bardon
Title: Re: Who is Practicing the IIH?
Post by: Melchizedek on December 11, 2010, 08:47:44 AM
I found a guy on YouTube who recorded the entire IIH and posted video/audio of IT.

http://www.youtube.com/user/frabatothemagician#p/u/95/-7lOLBFQr04 (http://www.youtube.com/user/frabatothemagician#p/u/95/-7lOLBFQr04)
Title: Re: Who is Practicing the IIH?
Post by: Lleu on December 12, 2010, 03:11:07 PM
I will start soon. Once finals get over. Blarg. Working on weakening a couple bad habits in the mean time.
Title: Re: Who is Practicing the IIH?
Post by: superzeno on December 19, 2010, 07:36:18 PM
You know franz bardon IIH is similar to some of Crowely works, Which of them would be be better in their own way like, which have the best theories or which have better practices
Title: Re: Who is Practicing the IIH?
Post by: Aunt Clair on January 12, 2011, 06:57:50 PM
Crowley requires more discernment. His works are credible but tainted. He went off on a hedonistic plunge into the dark night of the soul.

And Uncle Al did not leave a natural progression of steps like Bardon. I would suggest work with IIH and then read Crowley and when you do , read his works concerning the Hexagram Rituals and read about his black cube , and knowledge and communication with the Guardian Angel and Higher Self.

Uncle Al relates a cosmology of the soul which can be confirmed and he relates a cosmology of the realms which has some golden nuggets within it because he wrote about topics no other author broached.

But he was limited by his hedonism.  And that path's ideas about the Dark Watcher are foolish and fear ridden. The Guardian Angel and the Guardian Demon are aspects of our own soul , so is the Dark Watcher.

Crowley's cronies advocate sacrifices of blood, urine and bread to satiate the Dark Watcher. But the Dark Watcher is the aspect of the magician's own soul that brings the Dark Night of the Soul when they descend too far. It is a fail-safe, a stop-gap measure which makes the magician ascend again or destroy themselves in insanity ,depression, hedonism or death. Stopping further descension prevents a rapid decline in vibration by that one vessel or life which could harm the entire monad and group soul and all of us.

Crowley has brilliant truths which are worth a read but there is so much filth too. Bardon harms none and teaches a path that is logical and sequential and possible to follow.
Title: Re: Who is Practicing the IIH?
Post by: epikdude on January 17, 2011, 08:29:25 PM
Yes, I'm practicing Step 1. :biggrin:
Title: Re: Who is Practicing the IIH?
Post by: Melchizedek on January 19, 2011, 09:33:24 AM
The whole point to doing the exercises in IIH comes down to one thing. Mastering the 4 elements. If you can grasp this concept, then the entire book is child's play. If you can't then you will spend many years wondering what's the point to doin these exercises.
Even if you havn't even opened up this book, if you just contemplate the idea that all your behaviours, good and bad come out of the fact that you have accumalated in your spirit, your body too much of one or more of the elements, on the  neagtive side of the element, then the entire book will appear as easy as taking kindergarden classes.

If you examine any of your behaviour traits if you can follow your intuitive nature, visualize fire, air water and earth, you can mentally trace all your character traits back to an excess of one or more, of the four elements in your spirit/astral body.

See this and you will have mastered this entire book in 2 seconds

Also meditate on the fact that all the secrets to this magical system are contained in the Great Pyramid of Giza

(http://www.box.net/shared/static/zi8ksd175d.jpg)

If you do this, the enitre book will become easier and easier and you will be given the ability to do all the exercises effortlessly.
Title: Re: Who is Practicing the IIH?
Post by: Kichara on January 19, 2011, 10:09:59 AM
You know franz bardon IIH is similar to some of Crowely works, Which of them would be be better in their own way like, which have the best theories or which have better practices

Go with the IIH. Crowley has very good and specific practices and method, but he was not a fan of fools who thought they knew better than they did, and so he made mistakes less forgiving than Bardon does.


Quote
His works are credible but tainted. He went off on a hedonistic plunge into the dark night of the soul.

Strange that a "hedonist" can read the Tao te ching and be so uplifted in it that he levitates and shines gold before knocking everyone in the room out with his expanding consciousness.

I doubt he would ever have you call him "Uncle" either. Especially since you seem to know almost nothing about him.

Quote
The whole point to doing the exercises in IIH comes down to one thing. Mastering the 4 elements.


I completely disagree.

Title: Re: Who is Practicing the IIH?
Post by: Melchizedek on January 19, 2011, 11:11:58 AM
 

Quote
The whole point to doing the exercises in IIH comes down to one thing. Mastering the 4 elements.


I completely disagree.



Take a look at the cover of IIH, the first tarot card. This entire book can be summed up in this one picture. It symbolizes the magician as being in perfect harmony with the Akasha principle,symbolized by the bubble above the magician's head, with the male and female principle embracing connecting to the Akasha, through the mastery of the four elements

The male and female principle being symbolized as the positive and negative of the elements, in the form of the man and woman on earth, coming together in balance in the form of the hermphodite{mastering the positive and negative aspects of the elements)and also the electric and magnetic fluids, which come about through mastery of the elements. The ability to develop magic powers, which comes about through mastery of the four elements. The ability to develop powers of visualization, which comes about through mastery of the four elements. The ability to transmute your consiousness, which comes about through the mastery of the four elements. The ability to seperate your consiousness from your physical body, which comes about through mastery of the four elements. the ability to have harmony between the physical and astral body, which comes about through mastery of the four elements. The ability to charge magical implments, which comes about through the mastery of the four elements. The ability to infleunce objects to have magical properties, which comes about through the mastery of the four elements.

This is why you have the picture of the magician surrounded by the four elements coming out of his head with the akasha principle, because everything about starting this book begins and ends with the mastery of the four elements, through the balancing of the positive and negative aspects of the four elements, represneted by the man and woman. Without it, you have nothing
(http://www.box.net/shared/static/d22ty65dvg.jpg)
Title: Re: Who is Practicing the IIH?
Post by: Dea on January 20, 2011, 12:20:48 AM
Mastering the four elements is one of the goals. The whole point is union with the Godhead, which is why it's the last step of the book.
Title: Re: Who is Practicing the IIH?
Post by: Jesse9209 on January 20, 2011, 07:43:07 AM
Mastery of the elements is sought so that the magician rises through the illusion of the world towards God not as many mystics do hiding from the world, but as a master of the world who is then free to unite with God withouot the desires and temptations of the world holding him down.
Title: Re: Who is Practicing the IIH?
Post by: Melchizedek on January 20, 2011, 09:24:35 AM
Mastering the four elements is one of the goals. The whole point is union with the Godhead, which is why it's the last step of the book.

Yes, I agree with you that it's the last and most important point. The pathway way to this is by the mastery of the 4 elements.
You have the Akasha principle symbolizing everything, permeating everywhere and then fire, air, water earth comes from this and is at the root of all creation.

If you transcend all your negative charcteristics, within the 4 elements, you are left with a perfect pathway to the Godhead. The majority of the exercises in this book deal with the use of the 4 elements and you being in perfect balance and harmony with them. You can not ascend to the higher levels of magic, without having mastered them. They are the cornerstone of the enitre system.

There was someone who wanted to know if they were infleuncing events in peoples lives, if magic actually worked on the physical plane of reality. If you master these elemenst, then you have direct contact with the akasha. You could say something into it and it would produce a real event in the physical. Also you would be able to see that you actually effected it, because you could use clairvoyance, by mastery of the fire element to see and know without a shadow of a doubt that you had done so.


Title: Re: Who is Practicing the IIH?
Post by: Dancing_Crow on January 20, 2011, 10:16:46 AM
Mastery of the elements is sought so that the magician rises through the illusion of the world towards God not as many mystics do hiding from the world, but as a master of the world who is then free to unite with God withouot the desires and temptations of the world holding him down.

Not all mystics hide from the world.
Title: Re: Who is Practicing the IIH?
Post by: Akenu on January 20, 2011, 02:31:13 PM
Yup, I am right here... :-D. Mysticism is fine... Btw is it possible that smoke is trying to eat my chocolate?
It is directing straight on the chocolate and whenever I move chocolate on different place the smoke is chasing it...
Just saying...
Title: Re: Who is Practicing the IIH?
Post by: Akenu on January 20, 2011, 02:34:51 PM
False alarm... Smoke started doing rings so it's just some spirit wandering around...
Title: Re: Who is Practicing the IIH?
Post by: Dancing_Crow on January 21, 2011, 10:23:33 AM
hah! I'm a mystic too! :)

I dance medicine into the Physical from the Non-Physical! :)

I don't hide though those who are not looking find it hard to see me.
Title: Re: Who is Practicing the IIH?
Post by: Melchizedek on January 21, 2011, 01:57:50 PM
Probaly the most important act you can do in practicing this magic system is to keep a magical diary of each exercise as you do them. Even if your just trying this system out, keeping a private journal of what you do with it, will not only help you progress quicker in doing the exercises, but will also give you a foundation of seeing the progress your making on practicing the exercises.

Just write out each exercise in your private journal and then record your observations and experiences in practing each of the exercises as you do them. Then as you make progress, read over from time to time what you experienced and it will make a world of difference in your understanding of the entire magical system and also the reasons for why you are doing it.
Title: Re: Who is Practicing the IIH?
Post by: deosth on January 23, 2011, 09:22:17 PM
Since there are a lot of people in this post reading this book i did not create a new post.
In this part of the book i need some help.
Simultaneously, the mental sphere is the sphere of thoughts which have their origin in the
world of ideas, consequently in the spiritual akasa. Each thought is preceded by a basic idea
which, according to its property, accepts a definite form, and arrives to the consciousness of
the ego through the etheric principle, consequently the mental matrix, as expression of the
thought in the shape of a plastic picture. Therefore Man himself is not the founder of the
thoughts, but the origin of each thought is to be sought in the supreme akasa sphere or the
mental plane. Man’s spirit, as it were, is the receiver, the antenna of thoughts from the world
of ideas, according to the situation in which Man happens to be. The world of ideas being all
in all, each new idea, new invention -- in short, all Man believes to have created by himself --
has been brought out of this world of ideas. This production of new ideas depends on the
maturity and attitude of the spirit. Each thought involves an absolutely pure element,
especially if the thought implies abstract ideas. If the thou ght is based on several
combinations of the ideal world, different elements are effective in their form as well as in
their mutual emanation. Only abstract ideas have pure elements and pure polar emanations, as
they descend directly from the causal world of an idea.
From this cognition we may draw the conclusion that there are pure electric, pure magnetic,
indifferent and neutral ideas from the standpoint of their effect. According to the idea, each
thought in the mental sphere has its own form, color and vibration. Through the tetra-polar
magnet of the spirit, the thought arrives at the consciousness, from where it is forwarded to
realization. Each thing created in the material world consequently has its cause in the ideal
world through the thought and the spiritual consciousness, and is reflected therein. If the
point in question is not exactly an abstract idea, several forms of ideas can be expressed. Such
thoughts are electric or magnetic or electromagnetic, according to the elementary property of
the idea.



When i make a thought according to this the ideas my thought is made of are not of my own creation
they just came and formed the thought.So did i call all these basic ideas to form the thought or
did someone else decided for me?
If i did then in which plane did this command begin from and if it was to the mental plane and so a thought
 again (i mean if the collection of ideas making a thought is preexistent as a group in the mental plane and so again a thought)
 is there some place where all this proccess began by my own choice?
Since this choice is not a mental command/thought what is it called?
Thank you.
Title: Re: Who is Practicing the IIH?
Post by: Akenu on January 24, 2011, 02:08:41 AM
This is a kinda hard question to answer :).
Idea of a thought belongs to human mind, but... There are many factors which influence the mind... It can be just your subconsciousness, it can be your HGA or some spirit external to you. Have you ever done something while having this strange feeling like "Oh, this might be a bad idea" and in the end it went wrong? That feeling was most probably your HGA telling you to stop. One of the reasons why to study Magick is to attain a state where you can freely speak with your HGA and not just letting yourself to get influenced.

So to answer your question: Yes, it could be your choice and by that it has started in your mind :).
Title: Re: Who is Practicing the IIH?
Post by: deosth on February 02, 2011, 09:03:20 AM
Thank you, I have one more question. If all ideas are in the mental plane then why do i need to read something to be able to recall this knowledge?So should it not be equally difficult for me to recall any kind of thought and even with effort be able to find any idea in the mental plane and so have all the knowledge that exists without learning it?
Title: Re: Who is Practicing the IIH?
Post by: Akenu on February 02, 2011, 09:06:29 AM
@deosth: You actually can attain any knowledge without reading it somewhere... Problem is you must get the access first :).
Quite frankly this is the ultimate goal of every magician. It is called Divine Knowledge.
Title: Re: Who is Practicing the IIH?
Post by: Akenu on February 02, 2011, 09:08:20 AM
And more to say... We are receiving fragments of this knowledge using meditation, divination, evocation/invocation, whatever... But I am not sure what would happen if that knowledge would all became a part of your memory as a whole. I guess that without a proper training there would be some mental breakdown.
Title: Re: Who is Practicing the IIH?
Post by: deosth on February 03, 2011, 01:02:31 AM
So what is the reason i dont have this access?Is it my own mentall weakness or is something(some existence) preventing me from it?If something does prevent me what is the reason?
Title: Re: Who is Practicing the IIH?
Post by: Akenu on February 03, 2011, 02:01:11 AM
@deosth: Very good question, and a very hard one to answer :). Only way how to attain this knowledge is to merge with the Light, with God.
I guess it sounds quite strange because maybe you haven't studied Kabbalah, but I will give you a practical example:
Many occultists here use method to retrieve information from Light. They simply ask and then meditate till they get the answer.
During meditation you get into the gnostic state where psychic censor stops working and your consciousness and subconsciousness is merging into one. Your subconsciousness is the real spirit and as such it is connected to God from which it was created. As all the spirits are connected in this way they share the knowledge.

So, what to take from this post:
1) Using meditation you can get answers to your questions
2) Psychic Censor is the one who normally blocks communication between you and your subconsciousness
3) Spirits are all connected in a spiritual way and all are the parts of realm or reality we call God, Tetragrammaton, YHVH, anima mundi, whatever.
4) Power of your psychic censor is mutually exclusive to your spiritual development. More developed you are, weaker he is.

May God bless you :).
Title: Re: Who is Practicing the IIH?
Post by: The Gunslinger on February 26, 2011, 09:10:32 PM
OK so, i'm confused about how exactly to go about each step.

  For example, I understand how your suppose to break down the first step for Magic Mental Training. However the part i'm confused on is am i also suppose to do the first part of Magic Psychic training and Magic Physical training as well?

  Do i follow a linear path, one right after the other. Or do i do all 3 sections of Part 1 at the same time?
Title: Re: Who is Practicing the IIH?
Post by: tuckle on February 27, 2011, 12:29:26 AM
OK so, i'm confused about how exactly to go about each step.

  For example, I understand how your suppose to break down the first step for Magic Mental Training. However the part i'm confused on is am i also suppose to do the first part of Magic Psychic training and Magic Physical training as well?

  Do i follow a linear path, one right after the other. Or do i do all 3 sections of Part 1 at the same time?
You do all 3 sections at the same time.
Title: Re: Who is Practicing the IIH?
Post by: Echo on March 25, 2011, 03:11:54 AM
I have just recently discovered the IIH and am starting work on the first exercises. I hope that I can overcome my somewhat flighty nature and pursue this path diligently, but I feel like I have already met with a stumbling block.

The Soul Mirror is something I have done - and continue to do - for nearly half a decade in my own way so I feel that introspection will not be a challenge. I can easily adopt the physical exercises into my current daily regiment as well; creative visualization associated with conscious breathing/eating seems to come natural to me.

My trouble stems from the mental exercises. I have always had an orderly mind and I have cultivated that order for as long as I can remember. Unbidden thoughts rarely come to my mind. I realize that I may be fooling myself and am somehow ignoring the "micro-thoughts", but try as I might I can't seem to observe any. I almost feel as though I would have to somehow undo progress I have made in the past - to clutter my mind - in order to properly complete this first simple lesson.

I have practiced other techniques for focusing on single thoughts in the past and feel that I can already retain that state for more than 30 minutes with very rarely a distracting thought. I am also adept at maintaining no thoughts for extended periods, but again I feel I may be fooling myself by actually Thinking of blackness/emptiness. Is that not what I am suppose to achieve? Is there an actual state of no thought that is evading me or am I doing it correctly?

After reading the entire manual I feel that the lessons in it are very familiar and resonate well with me, but after reading so much about self-delusion through not diligently following the prescribed methods I am worried about moving forward for fear of creating my own barriers later. And yes, I realize that self-defeatism and fear-paralysis belong on my mirror.

Any advice would be greatly appreciated.
Title: Re: Who is Practicing the IIH?
Post by: skills_no_dogma on March 27, 2011, 03:28:19 PM
What exactly is the endgame of this book?  I want to learn how to heal my body, and conjure different emotional states in my body so that I can tackle different tasks. Is this book good for my goals?
Title: Re: Who is Practicing the IIH?
Post by: Dea on March 27, 2011, 04:45:55 PM
Yes.
Title: Re: Who is Practicing the IIH?
Post by: Akenu on March 28, 2011, 03:34:17 AM
@skills_no_dogma: I would say, yes :).
Well, maybe for healing of physical and emotional body is Reiki better as it is a complete system made for this purpose.
But: For Reiki you need a master who will attune you (and who is expensive). You can use IIH to bypass this attunement requirement and then use Reiki.
Title: Re: Who is Practicing the IIH?
Post by: skills_no_dogma on March 29, 2011, 04:03:05 PM
Why is emptiness a goal in Step 1, when all the rest of the exercises seems to focus more on focal meditation, and being able to develop all senses?
Title: Re: Who is Practicing the IIH?
Post by: Steve on March 29, 2011, 05:28:28 PM
Echo: the point of the first mental exercises is to learn how to maintain a single-pointed state of conscious awareness, whether it is on nothing, "the blackness", or a single item. So, if you're unsure of whether you are able to empty your mind, pick a single familiar object such as a spoon and hold that in your mind for 10 minutes.

~Steve
Title: Re: Who is Practicing the IIH?
Post by: Iatros on March 29, 2011, 05:41:48 PM
Why is emptiness a goal in Step 1, when all the rest of the exercises seems to focus more on focal meditation, and being able to develop all senses?


Because, generally speaking, emptiness is harder to maintain than singularity. If there's something to focus on, the mind is more easily occupied. So, in one sense, it's overkill that assures your skill.

In another sense, it provides a good basis for many future skills. For instance, let's say you're communicating telepathically with another person / entity. If you have the ability to completely stop your own thought process and remain receptive, then you can be certain that you're not just auto-suggesting responses that you want to hear.

As to your previous question, this book supposedly teaches a complete system of initiation into total self-control--physical, mental, emotional, etcetera--and the control of the elements to various ends.

So if you follow it to the letter successfully, you'll have no problem with tackling anything, and will have a certain degree of clair-senses and magical power, as well. Your body will naturally heal and balance itself as part of the work, and you should be able to apply what you master about yourself to both others and the world around you.

Yeah, I'm excited, too. :P
Title: Re: Who is Practicing the IIH?
Post by: Jesse9209 on March 30, 2011, 11:05:05 AM
IIH is way more intense than reiki. Progressing through IIH with require of you to achieve equilibrium between the elements in your astral and mental body, vastly enhance your vitality, and give you master of the fluids, elements, and vital force all of which can be used to strengthen the health and evolve oneself towards divinity. IIH because of its step by step training which builds upon eachother gives you control of very powerful energies which most other systems outside of being initiated directly by an adept(which is of course the best option) will not give you. Balancing the elements by itself will make someone very resilient to any negative influence, this combined with the ability to accumulate vitality as powerfully as bardon suggests will give one an incredible power to heal. Though in my experience the healing influence is magnified when combined with hatha yoga because hatha naturally strengthens and purifies your energy.

Just thought i'd throw in my two cents.

Now that I read another comment thought i'd also comment on this

Why is emptiness a goal in Step 1, when all the rest of the exercises seems to focus more on focal meditation, and being able to develop all senses?


First off it is necessary because while you can practice focal meditation from the beginning its necessary to develop the awareness of the mind first so you actually realize when your mind wanders. Most people won't realize their mind is even wandering! Another point is to gather control of the mind so that when later on mastering your imagination a wandering mind does not cause destruction in your life. Strong emotions and uncontrolled thoughts in someone who has trained their mind for even a few years will impact themselves, the people around them, and even the weater. So thought control is of much more value than you think at first. Though fortunetly without control of the mind you will not generate enough mental force to achieve the plastic imagination which causes changes.

That is not theory that is practical experience over the past few years.
Title: Re: Who is Practicing the IIH?
Post by: Akenu on March 30, 2011, 12:09:29 PM
@Jesse9209: Before I answer to your post, I should say this:
Reiki is split into three stages:
1) using energy for healing
2) using symbols to better control and strengthen effects of the healing
3) learning how to pass down Reiki to students

About stage 1:
You can use as much energy as your body can accept, healing goes somewhat automatical and in an intuitive way

About stage 2:
You learn how to use Reiki symbols during healing and this way better aim and control energy, also your body is able to accept more energy at this time.
You also learn how to heal on other planes (not just physical) and also how to do it on distance

About stage 3:
Your body can take even more energy and thanks to master symbol your healing is even more powerful. You also learn how to pass Reiki Attunement to next person.

About Reiki symbols:
Part of the legend where Mikao Usui got vision of these symbols is a lie.
These symbols have their origin in Tibetan Buddhism.
In fact, these symbols are 5 steps of Buddhistic Ascension.

About Reiki nowadays:
It is sad, but Reiki is currently used for business, which is bad as occult community won't accept it so easily.

Me and Reiki:
I didn't get Reiki using traditional way. Many of my rituals consisted of wish to heal someone and that's maybe why I've got ability to heal myself (It's a gift from God). Still, it was an ability sent to me without any manual.
Once during visit in a library I had found a very interesting book about Reiki, it charmed me so I have bought it and learned from it.
From what I have understood Reiki is not any power or energy, it's a way how to use energy from God and how to attune others so they are also able to use it, nothing else.

As both healing from IIH and Reiki uses the very same energy, just the procedure might be different, let me ask you, what's the difference between using symbols from Reiki or any other symbols including runes, hieroglyphs or hermetics?

Title: Re: Who is Practicing the IIH?
Post by: Dancing_Crow on March 30, 2011, 12:19:49 PM
IIH is way more intense than reiki. (snipped)

Different strokes for different folks. Reiki teaches that all is fundamentally "Universal Life Force Conscious Energy" and the first attunement experience makes you into a radio able to "tune into" this energy (which is everywhere/when no matter what path you follow). When I facilitate the healing of others, they do not always perceive in the same way that I perceive because their "radio" is tuned into a different station than I am. Each "level" of Reiki simply makes it so that you can tune into a larger and larger bandwidth.

If "Reiki" is not "intense" for you, it simply means that you are not yet ready for "Reiki Intensity" to put it mildly. In your next Reiki experience, open yourself up to the experience and let the Energy flow - you'll likely "find" the intensity you are looking for.

Attention follows Awareness after all (and vice versa).

Peace, Love and Infinite Light,
Dancing Crow
Reiki II Practitioner
Title: Re: Who is Practicing the IIH?
Post by: Jesse9209 on March 30, 2011, 12:33:46 PM
However for healing IIH uses not only the "Universal Life Force Conscious Energy" which is the first energy the magician learns to work with as the vital force. However for healing the magician will also use the elements and the electric and magnetic fluids which can treat things much more effectively than the vital force or universal life force energy as you put it. While the vital force is very useful there are problems which require different qualities depending on the situation.

I don't mean to talk bad about reiki, I'm just pointing out that the training is much deeper in IIH than simply opening oneself to energy and that the above comment

@skills_no_dogma: I would say, yes :).
Well, maybe for healing of physical and emotional body is Reiki better as it is a complete system made for this purpose.
But: For Reiki you need a master who will attune you (and who is expensive). You can use IIH to bypass this attunement requirement and then use Reiki.

I'm simply pointing out that the IIH trains one in more ways to heal than simply using one energy so it leaves more options for healing. I'm not saying reiki cannot be effective, but that the IIH is at least no less effective towards healing in the hands of someone who has proper training. I meant no offense to reiki practicioners, I apoligize if any was taken.
Title: Re: Who is Practicing the IIH?
Post by: Akenu on March 30, 2011, 12:44:02 PM
@Jesse9209: That wasn't point of the post.
That universal reiki energy is not what you think it is :-). Take your elemental energies, mix them together with magnetic fluids, etc and you will get prima materia, raw Light, that's what is used in Reiki and that's also why skilled adept of IIH can use Reiki without any attunement...
To prove my point: Experienced Reiki teacher always says to his students to remove any electronical device before the attunement. It happened a lot of time that these devices (including watches, mobiles, etc) were destroyed during the attunement (and reason wasn't teacher was beating these devices with a stick).

Symbols are used to transform this energy and use it more properly (same as in IIH you work with different energies of the same origin to affect different planes). Main point of healing is always balancing energies in patient as this is the root of most diseases.

I cannot say whether Reiki or IIH method is better, there are typically the same results using different procedures.

In the end of the post I would like to say this:
It doesn't matter which method you use for healing. Whether it is MPL, Reiki, Voodoo, Tikiwakti, whatever. Important is Love. Find that power in your heart and no obstacle is big enough :-)

May God bless you :-)
Title: Re: Who is Practicing the IIH?
Post by: Dancing_Crow on March 30, 2011, 12:45:22 PM
However for healing IIH uses not only the "Universal Life Force Conscious Energy" which is the first energy the magician learns to work with as the vital force. However for healing the magician will also use the elements and the electric and magnetic fluids which can treat things much more effectively than the vital force or universal life force energy as you put it. While the vital force is very useful there are problems which require different qualities depending on the situation.

I don't mean to talk bad about reiki, I'm just pointing out that the training is much deeper in IIH than simply opening oneself to energy and that the above comment

I love discussion. My ego isn't involved in this discussion as it helps me deepen my own understanding of my practice. Reiki is deep - I would say just as deep as IIH but I've never experienced IIH practices so I can't comment on that. The fundamental difference between IIH and Reiki that I am hearing is: IIH keeps the "control" in the hands of the magician. Whereas in Reiki, we as practitioners surrender that control to "Universal Life Force Conscious Energy" and the "Energy" "knows" and "does" in accordance with the individual's Highest Good.

Quote
I'm simply pointing out that the IIH trains one in more ways to heal than simply using one energy so it leaves more options for healing. I'm not saying reiki cannot be effective, but that the IIH is at least no less effective towards healing in the hands of someone who has proper training. I meant no offense to reiki practicioners, I apoligize if any was taken.

"Universal Conscious Life Force Energy" isn't just "one" energy it is "sum" of all energies. It is "God/Goddess" archetype given another name. (at least this is my experience so far). No offense taken - I am happy to talk about my Reiki practice with others as it helps me deepen my practice.

Peace, Love and Infinite Light,
Dancing Crow
Reiki II Practitioner
Title: Re: Who is Practicing the IIH?
Post by: Jesse9209 on March 30, 2011, 02:07:30 PM
I look at this as a way to improve our understanding and don't want to offend.

The vital force is indeed a combination of all of the energies I mentioned. So I would say we are talking about the same thing, the vital force is the energy of God from the higher spheres into the etheric realm undifferentiated by the elements. So the vital force naturally contains all forces within it, this however means that while it can create balance in some cases a more specific energy may be needed. For example in IIH we use the vital force to naturally balance the elements within us so that we can practice with the specific elements without creating an imbalance in ourselves.

I have a few concerns with reiki based on the technique, correct me if i'm wrong. You flow energy through yourself and into the patient which would naturally form a connection between the two of you. This creates a possibility for the negative influence from both the sender or receiver, for instance this connects your life force with the sick life force. Another danger which i've run into is the charictaristics of the person being healed become imprinted on your own personality. In some instances this can lead to a strange emotional disturbance. The last problem I can think of with this is the dangers of a wandering mind, a wandering mind when working with energy can cause a nearly limitless supply of problems. For instance if the thought drifts onto something causing anger it could cause the energy to be harsh and destructive. In IIH this is avoided through at least a years worth of training the mind before work with the vital force is undertaken.

These are just my worries based on what I know about reiki and most healing done in the manner.
Title: Re: Who is Practicing the IIH?
Post by: Akenu on March 30, 2011, 02:16:15 PM
@Jesse9209: You are right to some extent...
Side effects are common for unexperienced healers (in both Reiki and IIH practice) and even for over-experienced healers who by mistake take Karmic debt to themselves (like in case of Frantisek Bardon).
That's also why I have said that most important is Love which you find in your heart, that was a hidden message.

Commonly, energy origins in Solar Plexus chakra which is also chakra used by most healers for healing. This is the cause of these side-effects.
When using any other chakra than heart you are both wasting your own energy and harming yourself.
On the other hand, when you use only heart chakra for healing, you will find out that not only you don't spend your own energy, but after the healing procedure, both healer and patient feel much better.

Regarding karmic debt: This also can be "healed". During attunement the master works as a bridge which leads bad Karma from patient the ground. Erasing of karmic debt is a reward for becoming healer. But: Not every Reiki master is aware of this.
Title: Re: Who is Practicing the IIH?
Post by: Dancing_Crow on March 30, 2011, 02:26:00 PM
I look at this as a way to improve our understanding and don't want to offend.

The vital force is indeed a combination of all of the energies I mentioned. So I would say we are talking about the same thing, the vital force is the energy of God from the higher spheres into the etheric realm undifferentiated by the elements. So the vital force naturally contains all forces within it, this however means that while it can create balance in some cases a more specific energy may be needed. For example in IIH we use the vital force to naturally balance the elements within us so that we can practice with the specific elements without creating an imbalance in ourselves.

I have a few concerns with reiki based on the technique, correct me if i'm wrong. You flow energy through yourself and into the patient which would naturally form a connection between the two of you. This creates a possibility for the negative influence from both the sender or receiver, for instance this connects your life force with the sick life force. Another danger which i've run into is the charictaristics of the person being healed become imprinted on your own personality. In some instances this can lead to a strange emotional disturbance. The last problem I can think of with this is the dangers of a wandering mind, a wandering mind when working with energy can cause a nearly limitless supply of problems. For instance if the thought drifts onto something causing anger it could cause the energy to be harsh and destructive. In IIH this is avoided through at least a years worth of training the mind before work with the vital force is undertaken.

These are just my worries based on what I know about reiki and most healing done in the manner.

As a Reiki Practioner, I am a conduit for the Energy. The less of "me" in the way, the more "effective" the healing. As a conduit, though, as I facilitate the healing of others so too am I healed. My life force and the "Universal Conscious Life Force Energy" are different. When I facilitate a healing, Reiki guides me and tells me what symbol to use in order to help with the facilitation. The symbol "colours" the Reiki in the wavelength that is needed to facilitate the healing session. I am a hollow reed through which Reiki flows. The less hollow I am, the more of "my stuff" gets in the way - but that too is good because the healing facilitation is not just for the client it is also for me.

I think the key aspect of Reiki that I don't think I am communicating clearly enough is that Reiki is Conscious - He/She/It knows better than I want we (both me and the client) need better than "I" do.

That's the best I can explain it at this time.
Title: Re: Who is Practicing the IIH?
Post by: Iatros on March 30, 2011, 06:45:56 PM
IIH question: Step 1, Mental.

When directed to maintain focus on a single thought, is Bardon referring to focal meditation-esque constant dwelling on a SINGLE CONCEPT without straying, or is he referring to a liberal concentration on that thought?

For example, must I concentrate only on the essence of the concept of "WATER," or can I think about many different facets of the WATER concept, so long as I remain within its domain?

Thanks.
Title: Re: Who is Practicing the IIH?
Post by: skills_no_dogma on March 31, 2011, 10:01:58 AM
OT -- are attunements actual safe? I've read about people having negative experiences from receiving reiki attunements, and I've read where people have advised against any kind of attunement because it can allow the person giving the attunement an unwanted connection with you.
Title: Re: Who is Practicing the IIH?
Post by: Dancing_Crow on March 31, 2011, 10:27:56 AM
OT -- are attunements actual safe? I've read about people having negative experiences from receiving reiki attunements, and I've read where people have advised against any kind of attunement because it can allow the person giving the attunement an unwanted connection with you.

Yes, they are safe. Reiki, as a system, has safety built in as "Highest Good" is always the intent of Reiki. When a Teacher passes an attunement to you, a "mentor/disciple" relationship is created. So just as the Teacher is agreeing to be your mentor, you are also agreeing to be his/her disciple. Each of you have a responsibility to choose wisely.
Title: Re: Who is Practicing the IIH?
Post by: Akenu on March 31, 2011, 10:59:36 AM
During attunement (especially to Reiki I) master connects with his student on spiritual level... This connection is very intense and can last for about 2 days before it starts fading, but it will never be lost.
Negative side effects are caused by cleansing process. After attunement your body will start self-cleansing process to get rid of negative energies, blockages and to get used to new energy.
Causes of these effects are minimized when you start healing some immediately after attunement (which is also recommended).
Many teachers do the mistake to warn about these side effects in advance. This is a psychotic suggestion and in this case rate of effects go up to 80% (4 students out of 5). In case of not warning in advance it's only 20% (1 student out of 5).
I never warn my students in advance as I have found that human mind is like suggestion trapper. I guess if I warned them that their skin will go purple, it would really happen :-D
Title: Re: Who is Practicing the IIH?
Post by: Shinichi on March 31, 2011, 11:30:04 AM
IIH question: Step 1, Mental.

When directed to maintain focus on a single thought, is Bardon referring to focal meditation-esque constant dwelling on a SINGLE CONCEPT without straying, or is he referring to a liberal concentration on that thought?

For example, must I concentrate only on the essence of the concept of "WATER," or can I think about many different facets of the WATER concept, so long as I remain within its domain?

Thanks.

I suppose you could do either, but I've always been instructed that Bardon is referring to focal meditation when he teaches thought control.



~:Shin:~
Title: Re: Who is Practicing the IIH?
Post by: Lilith on May 03, 2011, 03:21:45 AM
I got a mp3 file of the book, converted into one of those text to audio software, its not too bad if anyone would like it.
Title: Re: Who is Practicing the IIH?
Post by: the black elf on May 03, 2011, 01:33:24 PM
I dunno if I did choose or was chosen,and everything else inbetween......nevertheless I could not have wished for a better Reiki Mentor. :heart:
Title: Re: Who is Practicing the IIH?
Post by: Kichara on June 05, 2011, 09:32:12 PM
What? Reiki Mentor? Did you respond in the wrong thread?
Title: Re: Who is Practicing the IIH?
Post by: Wooster on June 07, 2011, 12:25:43 PM
Good evening everyone.


May I post a question regarding Step I?

Somewhere at the beginning, it says: „be aware of the fact that the body, soul and mind are to be trained simultaneously”.

I can imagine doing all the exercises of the “Magic Psychic Training” and “Magic Physical Training” at the same time, but “Magic Mental Training” just seems to have a very strict progression. When Bardon talks about the first Mental exercise, it says: “On no account go further before the preceding exercise is perfectly under control.“

So … should I wait till I think I have mastered the “Thought Control Exercise” and then go on to the next one (“Discipline of thoughts”)? Or do I rather try and master all of the Exercises of the Mental Training concurrently? 

I would be very grateful for any advise on this topic.

Thank you.



Title: Re: Who is Practicing the IIH?
Post by: Willi on June 07, 2011, 01:31:17 PM
First, you master the thought control. Then you move on to discipline of thoughts. :)
Title: Re: Who is Practicing the IIH?
Post by: Wooster on June 08, 2011, 12:01:09 PM
Thank you, Willi.
Title: Re: Who is Practicing the IIH?
Post by: SnakePlisskin on June 11, 2011, 12:32:28 PM
Quote
The main point is not to forget yourself, not to loose the train of thoughts, but to pursue it attentively. Beware of falling asleep while doing this exercise.
It is to be extended each day by one minute to allow the train of thoughts to be pursued and controlled without the slightest digression for a time of 10 minutes at least after a week's training.


What Bardon talks about here is the act of 'looking' at ones thoughts.
Notice he says- not to loose the train of thought.

What does he mean by loose?
What he means is to go unconscious. One can be conscious of ones thoughts and you can be unconscious.

Say you drive in the car, and your mind wanders- bored of traffic.
Would you be able to recall all the thoughts you had?

Or can you recall your thoughts, even for the last 10 minutes?

If not, that is possibly you are living unconsciously and going about
life, not realizing all the different thoughts we have.

Its very different to be present when thinking!
Here you are actually ''thinking'' your thoughts.
First you are thinking this thought, now we move on to thinking the next thought. And now what is the next thought we will think? ok this one. We will think of home, and family, and now we will think of making dinner.

Normally all this goes unnoticed. But Bardon is asking the disciple to 'think their thoughts' each and every one, in this exercise.

Initially, try to looks at what exactly you are thinking. spend five minutes at this. To get better at this exercise, sit with some paper, and a pen, and as each thought comes up, write it down!!

This will be very interesting for anyone who does it.

To take the exercise a bit further, into actual control- now try thinking your next thought. Decide what it is going to be, and think it!!
For example, lets think about dinner, but actually think about it! Will it be some vegetables, or some cold meat. How will it taste? Will you have cofee afterwards? think about the coffee. Now think about a friend, then something else.

If you do this, you are not only following the train of thoughts, but controlling them. Instead of being controlled BY them

This exercise is VITAL!!!
the first and second step prepare one for any system of magic. In later stages, a quiet controlled mind is so important to do ALL the other exercises.
Imagine you reach the first transformation, and your power is multiplied by a thousand times. Now you go unconscious in your mind, and next thing, someone makes you angry by driving out in front of you ! If you direct that anger towards them, you will easily kill that person, because you have reached the first transformation.
That is why this exercise of thought control is so important.

By being 'conscious' and thinking your thought, you are in control of them. By being 'unconscious' you are not in control, and can hurt someone, or most likely yourself later on.

frabatomagi.com (http://frabatomagi.com)
Title: Re: Who is Practicing the IIH?
Post by: Willi on June 11, 2011, 12:39:59 PM
That's a new way to see this exercise from what most here were used to seeing it as. If anyone decides to give it a try, I'd appreciate if you'd either post or PM me your experiences later.  :P
Title: Re: Who is Practicing the IIH?
Post by: Wooster on June 12, 2011, 09:52:07 AM
Yes, that’s quite a different approach as to what I have read in “Rawn’s Commentary” on this subject.
Seems indeed very interesting, SnakePlisskin. Thank you for your explanation.
In the beginning, however, I will stick to thought observation, I think.   
Title: Re: Who is Practicing the IIH?
Post by: Mindlessinvalid on June 12, 2011, 10:45:50 AM
The idea of thought observation is NOT to think. You are to observe all of your thoughts and let them dissolve into your mental sphere.

One of the most important things I picked up from the Divine Science Probationer's class before I washed out due to my own reasons, is that being able to focus your mind on one task, and bringing your mind to uniformity are two of the most important goals to reach to perform physical manifestation.

I don't know how to explain this exactly right, but It likes the mental sphere is finite, and each thought in your mental sphere is made out of the material of the mental sphere proper.

By letting thoughts run down without giving them more attention, they return to the base material of the mental sphere and that material can be put towards something else.

Conversely, if you pay attention to your thoughts, mental material not previously allocated will be invested in those thoughts.

The purpose is to forget, not to remember.
Title: Re: Who is Practicing the IIH?
Post by: Searching on June 12, 2011, 10:56:58 AM
The purpose is to forget, not to remember.

There are several different parts to the step 1 thought control exercises. And one part of them is to observe your thoughts and remember what they are.

One of the things this can do is help you identify where your mind is going, what thoughts tend to dominate it, what elements those thoughts are tied to, etc etc etc.


Emptying the mind is something else.
Title: Re: Who is Practicing the IIH?
Post by: Mindlessinvalid on June 12, 2011, 12:00:15 PM
Prophecy and Veos both have a high opinion of Bardon, but a low Opinion of the IIH, if I remember their words properly they have both mentioned that the IIH will not results in progression because the steps he gives for half the book are life-long practices and that some of the book was written with very little distinction between the exercises.

What you're referring to is supposed to be a separate bit from thought control.

I'm going to stop there because I don't want to overstep and spill the entire Probationer class (I might end up doing that if I continue).

However I can tell you that there are four major exercises that they had us do for most of the class, and they all revolved around unfolding the first section of the IIH in 4 distinct exercises.
Title: Re: Who is Practicing the IIH?
Post by: Searching on June 12, 2011, 12:38:37 PM
What you're referring to is supposed to be a separate bit from thought control.

Well at that point it's semantics, since the section is labeled thought control (though I believe Rawn Clarke had commented a bit about the different ways the title has been translated), and it all contains varying exercises.

Whether you want say one exercise is more about "thought control" and another is "thought observation" and another is "thought remembering" and another is "thought reflection" and another is "blah blah blah" really makes no difference. They are all different exercises and they all do different things.

Quote
I'm going to stop there because I don't want to overstep and spill the entire Probationer class (I might end up doing that if I continue).

Maybe you should  :wink:
Title: Re: Who is Practicing the IIH?
Post by: Mindlessinvalid on June 12, 2011, 12:42:10 PM
It DOES make a difference though, because that one step hold 4 distinct exercises that need to be added in as appropriate.

You get proficient in the first, then you do the first AND the second, and keep this up until you have all 4 in daily practice.

The very last part of that step is the most important, but can't be done competently unless you put some effort into the others for some time first.

It's not that there are 4 ways to practice, it's that there are 4 distinct practices that need to be derived from the first step.
Title: Re: Who is Practicing the IIH?
Post by: Jesse9209 on June 12, 2011, 12:56:17 PM
Mindlessinvalid where did you get that they don't like the IIH? The only book they recommend for magic outside of a system of initiation with a teacher is IIH. Prophecy once told me however that unless you were a recapitulating adept in a past life that there are too many subtleties in the IIH for people to progress through it without a teacher however practicing it can get you to the point you need to be for a teacher to show themselves in either this or the next life. Not to discourage anyone as the practices in IIH are very effective if you train the mind properly especially if combined with yoga you can make good spiritual progress albeit slower than it would be with a teacher.
Title: Re: Who is Practicing the IIH?
Post by: Searching on June 12, 2011, 12:57:05 PM
It DOES make a difference though, because that one step hold 4 distinct exercises that need to be added in as appropriate.

You get proficient in the first, then you do the first AND the second, and keep this up until you have all 4 in daily practice.

The very last part of that step is the most important, but can't be done competently unless you put some effort into the others for some time first.

It's not that there are 4 ways to practice, it's that there are 4 distinct practices that need to be derived from the first step.

I agree and disagree.

I agree with what you are saying.

But you can also practice each one of them independently according to what you need out of the situation.

My comments above were in response to this:

What you're referring to is supposed to be a separate bit from thought control.

I was saying how what snake was referring to was one of the ways to practice one of the ways listed in the "thought control exercise", to which you responded that it was different than thought control, to which I responded that it was in the "thought control" segment, as one of the steps of practices, and if you want to say "that one step isn't really thought control, this other step is really thought control", well at that point it's just a game of labeling.

Then again, I've only got the IIH and readily available commentaries to go on. If you're referring to something specifically from the class, well perhaps you should share  :wink:
Title: Re: Who is Practicing the IIH?
Post by: Mindlessinvalid on June 12, 2011, 01:09:40 PM
Mindlessinvalid where did you get that they don't like the IIH? The only book they recommend for magic outside of a system of initiation with a teacher is IIH. Prophecy once told me however that unless you were a recapitulating adept in a past life that there are too many subtleties in the IIH for people to progress through it without a teacher however practicing it can get you to the point you need to be for a teacher to show themselves in either this or the next life. Not to discourage anyone as the practices in IIH are very effective if you train the mind properly especially if combined with yoga you can make good spiritual progress albeit slower than it would be with a teacher.

That's essentially what I was driving at, the majority of people who attempt the IIH are not adepts "coming back for seconds" but people on their first real stab at progression.

This book actually fights that, it's designed to kill someone's interest in the subject unless they are genuinely tied to it.

Searching: I am of course referring to something from the class, but the best I can say is that the section on Thought Control holds 4 exercises with their own names that are designed to be done in conjunction with each other until you are ready for the Black and White Soul Mirrors.

I don't know if I should post their names and what they are, I guess I'll go ask the mentor in charge of my class. I'm going to take another stab at the probationer's class.
Title: Re: Who is Practicing the IIH?
Post by: SnakePlisskin on June 12, 2011, 04:54:16 PM
Yes, that’s quite a different approach as to what I have read in “Rawn’s Commentary” on this subject.
Seems indeed very interesting, SnakePlisskin. Thank you for your explanation.
In the beginning, however, I will stick to thought observation, I think.   

Hello Wooster,
I'm glad you got something from my post. There are lots of ways to do this exercise, and you should definitely do what you feel is right for you.
Another method is using beads, or small stones. Every time a thought comes to mind, move one of the beads along, and try again.

At first the beads themselves will probably be a distraction, then they become automatic. Use multiples of 9. for example 27 beads, or better 108 beads. after some time, you will not need the beads, and have perfect control over thoughts. This is so important in magic for the later steps.

But what is important is that one does any practice, because even bad practice is a hundred times better than no practice.
Bad practice becomes good over a short space of time too, as one learns 'their own way'.
Even if one does not practice magic ever again, having the ability to switch off ones thoughts, to a silent mind- really is golden :)



frabatomagi.com






Title: Re: Who is Practicing the IIH?
Post by: Wooster on June 14, 2011, 12:23:47 AM
Mindlessinvalid, what you have said in your very first post regarding the material of thoughts and their “mental flow”
(for lack of a better word) is quite a valuable bit of information to me, although I yet have to reflect on this as to better
comprehend what you mean. Thank you.

SnakePlisskin, yet again, I am grateful for your advise.
Title: Re: Who is Practicing the IIH?
Post by: Mindlessinvalid on June 14, 2011, 04:43:02 PM
If you go by the famous adage of hermes trimegestius, then through "that which is above is like that which is below and that which is within is like that which is without" applies to the relation between thought and karma.

Wrong thoughts lead to wrong deeds lead to wrong karma which leads to wrong situations which leads to wrong thoughts which leads to wrong deeds which leads to wrong karma etc.

They call karma the chains on the wheel of re-incarnation for a reason.

In fact, most wrong deeds can be prevented by releasing the tendency to feed the thoughts that lead to them.

People steal because they think about how much they want something, be it food or drugs or something else. If you were to not dwell on that, you'd be free of the mental baggage and karmic baggage.

Obsession is the one chain. Any and all sins can be traced to this. Even the sins of revulsion (aristotle wrote of 13 sins and 7 virtues long before christianity had the idea of sin, or any idea at all) come from obsession.

The names of sin is excess and lack. The name of Virtue is moderation. The easiest way to explain is to list the virtues attached to the seven cardinal sins, and then visualize too much or too little of each virtue. Aristotle claimed that shame (not the way we think of it, but rather conscious knowledge of wrongdoings you have committed) only has one sister sin. You can never be too aware of your faults, because "knowing a monster is the first step in defeating it." (Geralt of Rivia from the Witcher, the polish novel that got turned into two really mediocre games.)
Title: Re: Who is Practicing the IIH?
Post by: SnakePlisskin on June 14, 2011, 05:04:31 PM
If you go by the famous adage of hermes trimegestius, then through "that which is above is like that which is below and that which is within is like that which is without" applies to the relation between thought and karma.

Wrong thoughts lead to wrong deeds lead to wrong karma which leads to wrong situations which leads to wrong thoughts which leads to wrong deeds which leads to wrong karma etc.

They call karma the chains on the wheel of re-incarnation for a reason.

In fact, most wrong deeds can be prevented by releasing the tendency to feed the thoughts that lead to them.

People steal because they think about how much they want something, be it food or drugs or something else. If you were to not dwell on that, you'd be free of the mental baggage and karmic baggage.

Obsession is the one chain. Any and all sins can be traced to this. Even the sins of revulsion (aristotle wrote of 13 sins and 7 virtues long before christianity had the idea of sin, or any idea at all) come from obsession.

The names of sin is excess and lack. The name of Virtue is moderation. The easiest way to explain is to list the virtues attached to the seven cardinal sins, and then visualize too much or too little of each virtue. Aristotle claimed that shame (not the way we think of it, but rather conscious knowledge of wrongdoings you have committed) only has one sister sin. You can never be too aware of your faults, because "knowing a monster is the first step in defeating it." (Geralt of Rivia from the Witcher, the polish novel that got turned into two really mediocre games.)

Very insightful.
What about so called larvae, phantoms?
We all have our demons to face.
Do we play Jesus to the lepers in our head?
Or they don't exist?



frabatomagi.com
Title: Re: Who is Practicing the IIH?
Post by: Mindlessinvalid on June 14, 2011, 05:34:33 PM
There's an excerpt from the Dao De Ching that I find particularly applicable.

Defilements are like a cat,
feed it,
and it will come back for more,
Cease feeding it,
and it will cease to come back lest it starve.

Thought control is Auschwitz for Larvae and inner demons.

Think about this for a while... you'll see what I mean.
Title: Re: Who is Practicing the IIH?
Post by: Searching on June 14, 2011, 06:01:45 PM
If you go by the famous adage of hermes trimegestius, then through "that which is above is like that which is below and that which is within is like that which is without" applies to the relation between thought and karma.

Wrong thoughts lead to wrong deeds lead to wrong karma which leads to wrong situations which leads to wrong thoughts which leads to wrong deeds which leads to wrong karma etc.

They call karma the chains on the wheel of re-incarnation for a reason.

In fact, most wrong deeds can be prevented by releasing the tendency to feed the thoughts that lead to them.

People steal because they think about how much they want something, be it food or drugs or something else. If you were to not dwell on that, you'd be free of the mental baggage and karmic baggage.

Obsession is the one chain. Any and all sins can be traced to this. Even the sins of revulsion (aristotle wrote of 13 sins and 7 virtues long before christianity had the idea of sin, or any idea at all) come from obsession.

The names of sin is excess and lack. The name of Virtue is moderation. The easiest way to explain is to list the virtues attached to the seven cardinal sins, and then visualize too much or too little of each virtue. Aristotle claimed that shame (not the way we think of it, but rather conscious knowledge of wrongdoings you have committed) only has one sister sin. You can never be too aware of your faults, because "knowing a monster is the first step in defeating it." (Geralt of Rivia from the Witcher, the polish novel that got turned into two really mediocre games.)

Keep in mind that GOOD deeds also create karma which keeps you chained.

A gilded cage is still a cage.
Title: Re: Who is Practicing the IIH?
Post by: Mindlessinvalid on June 14, 2011, 06:20:21 PM
Good deeds DO create karma, but a different flavor of it.

True good deeds are actions of non-attachment, so if you were to think of karma as a substance, I would liken it to iron (not for any metaphysical similarities)

Iron is high common, and can be made into all sorts of things with varying levels of craftmanship, with the quality of an iron object being dictated by the attention that was given to it in it's creation.

Start listing things that can be made with iron and you'll see:

swords, guns, arrowheads, knives, axes, cannonballs, cannons, and other things that kill people by virtue of the fact that they are tools made to do this.

You can also build shackles, ball and chain rigs, cages, prison cells, chains, manacles, and things that can hold people down,

you can also forge shovels, hoes, trowels, wheel axels, and irrigation pipes, things to cultivate the land,

you can also build support beams, construction vehicles, hammers, saws, things with which to build other things such as buildings and dwellings.

you can also build monuments, and trophies, and plaques, and if not those, the tools to make those... statues and tributes to vanity...

you can also make art out of iron, things of beauty and expression...

karma and iron are alot alike in this regard.
Title: Re: Who is Practicing the IIH?
Post by: Searching on June 14, 2011, 06:24:18 PM
Like I said, a gilded cage is still a cage.

Whether you build shackles or monuments, you are still working with something that fundamentally attaches you.

Whether your "flavor" is strawberry or peppermint, it's still there to draw your senses.

And speaking from the perspective of someone who's ultimate goal is liberation, one would have to shed ALL karma, good and bad.

I just wanted to throw out that perspective.
Title: Re: Who is Practicing the IIH?
Post by: Mindlessinvalid on June 14, 2011, 07:18:20 PM
True good deeds are actions of non-attachment,

I think you are thinking in a way that is too rigid.

Not even the gods understand karma.

Besides, the wheel of re-incarnation is built upon negative karma. We don't come back to maya if we are fulfilled, we come back to maya because we regret having done or not having done something.

The dissolution of ALL karma is impossible, because Karma itself is the effect of living in this universe on any level.

Everything is subject to karma, without exception.
Title: Re: Who is Practicing the IIH?
Post by: Searching on June 14, 2011, 07:30:15 PM
I think you are thinking in a way that is too rigid.

It's not a personal belief. But I don't believe in appropriating terms and then defining them however we want. If we're going to use "karma", well that has a certain set of meanings. We can't just pick and choose "well I'm going to believe that I don't want bad karma, and stick with good karma, and still be spiritual".

Or maybe you can. Whatever.

Quote
Not even the gods understand karma.

Well, *ahem*, "strictly" speaking the gods are still bound by karma as well. There is a whole "god realm" in Tibetan Buddhism. Sure, it might be nice. They might spend a looooooooooong time up there. But they are still going to reincarnate. They are still going for a ride. They have not escaped. They are not truly liberated. They might be high and mighty today, but tomorrow they next round of musical chairs begins.

Quote
Besides, the wheel of re-incarnation is built upon negative karma. We don't come back to maya if we are fulfilled, we come back to maya because we regret having done or not having done something.

I don't proclaim to be an expert, but I think you have picked and chosen a bit too often for too long.

ALL karma creates attachment, creates chains that bind you. Good and bad.

We escape maya after we have resolved all of our karma. That means good and bad.

Quote
The dissolution of ALL karma is impossible, because Karma itself is the effect of living in this universe on any level.

Well I guess if you pick that belief, it is so ;)

I'm just here to drop by some perspective from groups that actually use the term "karma", and have for a long time, before it got appropriated and defined by others.

Maybe I've been a historian or a linguist in a past life, but I think knowing a word's origins is valuable.

Quote
Everything is subject to karma, without exception.

Well yeah. Until you are liberated :P
Title: Re: Who is Practicing the IIH?
Post by: Mindlessinvalid on June 14, 2011, 08:47:38 PM
I guess where I'm going with this is that my understanding of karma is that every action will generate it.

If stabbing a person generates karma, and giving him a sandwich also generates karma, then what action would not?

It can't be inaction, because that too would create karma.

The premise of your beliefs are faulty, because if karma is the cause/effect relationship that drives the creative, formative, and manifest worlds, then how can we escape it at all beyond total gnosis?

Even then, liberation is a selfish goal.

I guess between someone who could achieve liberation but didn't and someone who did achieve liberation but never re-incarnated so as to help others up, I'd see the former as pitiable, but the latter as a total jerk.
Title: Re: Who is Practicing the IIH?
Post by: Searching on June 14, 2011, 08:58:34 PM
I guess where I'm going with this is that my understanding of karma is that every action will generate it.

If stabbing a person generates karma, and giving him a sandwich also generates karma, then what action would not?

It can't be inaction, because that too would create karma.

Exactly.

Quote
The premise of your beliefs are faulty, because if karma is the cause/effect relationship that drives the creative, formative, and manifest worlds, then how can we escape it at all beyond total gnosis?

Well first off, they aren't my beliefs. I'm just relaying my understand of karma from my understanding of the Buddhist perspective.

For how to escape it, you'd have to ask about Buddhism. I stopped reading right at that point  :P

Eightfold path, right living, middle way, direct insight, something or another.

All I know is that a Buddha does not generate karma when a Buddha acts. Further clouding the issue, from the Buddhist view a person IS their karma. When all their karma gets resolved, there is no more person. And yet there is a buddha?

Well that's all part of non-duality :P

Quote
Even then, liberation is a selfish goal.

Eh, duality :P

Quote
I guess between someone who could achieve liberation but didn't and someone who did achieve liberation but never re-incarnated so as to help others up, I'd see the former as pitiable, but the latter as a total jerk.

Well, a bunch of different ways to look at it. If you believe what you hear, some buddhas do reincarnate specifically to help. But some don't.
Title: Re: Who is Practicing the IIH?
Post by: Jesse9209 on June 15, 2011, 07:45:30 AM
Not reincarnating doesn't mean that a being isn't helping other beings. By simply attaining to liberation negative energies are dissolved and it acts as a sort of blessing on the whole world. Evolution is much faster for beings who are in higher realms and who have attained liberation meaning the spiritual practices they perform naturally spread spiritual energy and light to the worlds below them. So in that way non reincarnating beings still have a tremendous impact on the world. Also there are many different spiritual realms and spheres such beings could go to to help beings in those realms or spheres who need aid just as much if not more than our world.

Also I believe in Veos article on raja yoga he talked about how no karma is created once one reaches dharma megha samadhi.  (An incredibly high spiritual attainment of which I have only heard of two individuals to have attained it.)
Title: Re: Who is Practicing the IIH?
Post by: Evin on June 18, 2011, 07:39:36 AM


I found a webpage that contains the vibrational state of being of each of the 10 steps from IIH. Scroll down to the divine vibration menu for the 10 steps and click each one. You can feel the vibrartory state that you would be at, if you completed each step of IIH correctly.

http://www.franzbardon.net/english/bardon.htm

The .gifs are all the same. Same directory, same filename, same size, etc. There is nothing different except the page title.

So how can the vibrations be different if the pics are the same?

ETA on topic, I'm looking into this. The basics will help, no matter what path I take. But the last thing I want to do is merge with the jewish tribal 'god', if that is the God spoken of by Bardon.
Title: Re: Who is Practicing the IIH?
Post by: trismegistos on July 05, 2011, 07:29:35 PM
There really isn't such a thing as good or bad karma, karma is just karma, karma is the force that drives us back towards God.  Whether your chains are made of lead or gold, you are still chained down.  When you act, it creates waves, cause and effect, and what one needs to learn is to "move with grace" so they don't produce any more "waves".

I'm by no means liberated (that I know of at least) or beyond karma yet, I am just passing on what I have been taught about karma so that it may help others understand to a degree.
Title: Re: Who is Practicing the IIH?
Post by: SnakePlisskin on July 06, 2011, 04:07:25 AM
An interesting side point is that animals don't suffer Karma.
This means that we suffer karma because we can decide, and make a choice.
Whereas an animal acts mostly out of instinct.

But one doesn't get Karma for every little thing !! Karma especially negative Karma is applied with compassion, and understanding, and not so much that the person is badly damaged- spiritually.

The object of Karma is for a persons growth, or to facilitate the growth of a person. And not wallop somebody when they do a wrong thing.

Another point to notice is that negative karma usually comes back to a person more quickly.
Positive Karma comes back much more slowly, but you will get ten times the value of positive karma for the good you have done.


_________________________________
http://frabatomagi.com
Title: Re: Who is Practicing the IIH?
Post by: Melchizedek on July 06, 2011, 08:05:17 AM
We all have a pre-destined outcome in life. I know now that to be true. The idea of karma being some type of either good or bad suffering, really comes down to how reluctant or stubborn you are to accpet your life's plan.

If you can find what your meant to do in this life, everything ends up effortless.

I think about Franz Bardon, he knew that he wasa going to perish at the hands of the communists in the 50's and he definitely accepted it.

It seems weird, because he had these tremendous books that he was alowed to write, yet he wasn;t allowed to live on as a teacher of the material in them.

Almost as if these magic books are a secret, that only a select few where allowed to decipher

In some cases knowing what your life's plan is, could be very painful such as in his case.
Title: Re: Who is Practicing the IIH?
Post by: ghostjghost on July 06, 2011, 08:06:31 AM
Quote
Another point to notice is that negative karma usually comes back to a person more quickly.
Positive Karma comes back much more slowly, but you will get ten times the value of positive karma for the good you have done.

I disagree with this, karma is a facet of nature, and I believe nature is balanced, so I also think karma is balanced.

To me it is a 1:1 Ratio.

The only reason the negative is responded to quicker is because the actions which caused it are more direct.

If you punch someone they are probably going to punch you back right away, it is something set in that particular moment in time.

Whereas for example preventing someone for falling to their deaths, or pushing them to their deaths are actions which affects that persons entire future, and so that restored balance is spread over that much larger area.

At least that is what I think, if that makes any sense.
Title: Re: Who is Practicing the IIH?
Post by: ArcaTuthus on July 06, 2011, 06:27:44 PM
As Trismegistos stated, there is no good or bad karma. Karma can be equated to desires that need to be destroyed or fulfilled, that keep you away from the souls only true desire; union with God. A lifetime of suffering, and a lifelong true friendship can both burn off these desires. "Good" Karma could actually be seen as more difficult because it is easier to fail to notice that it is desire other than union with God, so it may take longer to burn off that desire. So, if you had a lifetime of easy riches, never struggling with financial issues, you might have been better able to perceive that worldly gain is useless living a life of poverty. The desire for money is the karma which needs to be destroyed in this instance, but it can be realized either through good fortune or bad.
Title: Re: Who is Practicing the IIH?
Post by: Akenu on July 11, 2011, 02:30:13 AM
Karma is just infection getting us down, if you release yourself from bounds of this artificial virus, you will gain what was lost :).
Title: Re: Who is Practicing the IIH?
Post by: SnakePlisskin on July 14, 2011, 05:42:36 PM
Quote
It seems weird, because he had these tremendous books that he was alowed to write, yet he wasn;t allowed to live on as a teacher of the material in them.

Yes it does seem strange, but much of what is in Bardons books was transcribed from manuscripts, and from tapes, hence some errors.
But regarding as to why he did not teach more? I think his books helped with this fact, as I think he would of liked to have taught more. But Bardons real work was a divine mission, and an absolutely huge one at that, even for an initiate like him.

The second world war, I think 50 million died, and the amount of negative energy this created would be inconceivable to us. Its not just the deaths, but the suffering, fear, rage, sadness- the list is simply huge.

Bardon was supposed to have done colossal work for humankind, to help with this exponential negativity, and teaching students largely took a back seat to this. 


___________________________________
http://frabatomagi.com
Title: Re: Who is Practicing the IIH?
Post by: The_Son999 on August 04, 2011, 11:51:01 PM
I remember uptaking the task of studying and practicing Hermetics using Initiation into Hermetics, but I keep thinking that in order to really advance in the subject one really needs to help of a Guru or else you're never going to advance. I think the only thing I really did get to master was the art of "Visualization" I learned how to visualize all the colors and a lot of images to the point where I can practically visualize scenarios almost like lucid dreaming in my awake state. It took a lot of practice, but I eventually got it after a couple of months. I remember I would always practice while we weren't doing anything in class in High School, I would just start meditating at random practicing how to visualize until I eventually became pretty good at it.

I also mastered how to control my thoughts by applying other practices to it such as "Zen Buddhism" and Thelemic practices like "Liber III vel Jugorvm". I don't think I'll ever be able to fully master the Hermetics though without a trained Guru. I got this idea from once thinking that I knew how to use this thing called the Mer - Ka - Ba by following the instructions on the Meditation page, I always convinced I knew how to use it, but then I met an actual master that knew how to use it and I noticed I was way off and just being delusional I didn't know how to use it the whole time. This started making me think how many things I probably think I'm adept at doing just by following the steps on a meditation guide and not actually mastering the subject I think I'm mastering. You should consider finding Guru's on these areas of studies, you might think you're a master at a certain thing just by following the steps on a guide and then you meet a master and you realize you were way off.
Title: Re: Who is Practicing the IIH?
Post by: trismegistos on August 13, 2011, 04:39:19 PM
The reason IIH is written the way it is (with Initiatic blinds even though they're not so apparent) is to show the aspirant that the Master is necessary, and the few to have completed it on their own were reincarnated Adepts who were able to figure out how to do the exercises properly by their Intuition.  However, starting with IIH in a serious manner is certainly a good way to attract the Master, because the student doesn't find the Master, quite the contrary.
Title: Re: Who is Practicing the IIH?
Post by: Melchizedek on August 18, 2011, 01:08:25 AM
I really don't think that there are any human beings who are masters of IIH. I could be wrong, but I'm finding that the only master that can teach you the correct way of doing these exercises, is the master from within
Title: Re: Who is Practicing the IIH?
Post by: Akenu on August 18, 2011, 01:10:05 AM
I really don't think that there are any human beings who are masters of IIH. I could be wrong, but I'm finding that the only master that can teach you the correct way of doing these exercises, is the master from within

And real mentor should guide you to find this master from within :)
Title: Re: Who is Practicing the IIH?
Post by: trismegistos on August 18, 2011, 12:31:24 PM
I really don't think that there are any human beings who are masters of IIH. I could be wrong, but I'm finding that the only master that can teach you the correct way of doing these exercises, is the master from within

IIH is only the first Tarot card.  Not to say that it's some small achievement, but the level one can reach as a human is far higher than the IIH, far higher than what can be put into writing.
Title: Re: Who is Practicing the IIH?
Post by: SnakePlisskin on August 18, 2011, 04:23:35 PM
Quote
IIH is only the first Tarot card.  Not to say that it's some small achievement, but the level one can reach as a human is far higher than the IIH, far higher than what can be put into writing.


Yep, IIH is 'initiation' into hermetics. In other words, it is a preface, for when one has been visited by the initiator. IIH doesn't pretend to be anything but IIH. It doesn't say it is the original, or best.

But, still, there is simply nothing like it.
Title: Re: Who is Practicing the IIH?
Post by: akuigla on August 30, 2011, 07:23:56 AM
Hello,
Title: Re: Who is Practicing the IIH?
Post by: trismegistos on August 30, 2011, 03:37:24 PM
I quit a heroin addiction to pursue Hermetics.  If I can do that, you can give up an occasional drink.  You just have to persevere and force yourself to practice everyday, even when you don't necessarily feel like it.  Eventually it will become habit and you won't feel right without doing your exercises.  In the beginning there will be a type of excitement to keep you going but as Initiation isn't something you accomplish in a couple months it will lose it's luster at some point, but eventually you will be rewarded and will get joy from your practice.  I would advise that perhaps you also do some type of pranayama like Sukha Purvaka to help realign your energies.  Also, look at what your motives truly are.
Title: Re: Who is Practicing the IIH?
Post by: Rawiri on August 30, 2011, 06:02:29 PM
Bardon wasn't speaking against drinking itself there. I'll just quote the whole thing (to save myself time, from the pdf version):

Quote
Manage it so that you spend as much time as possible in your rise or advance. It is quite unnecessary to waste time with sitting for hours, drinking beer and passing time in trivial company. Time is running away like water, never to return. A certain amount of time ought to be provided for, but it is very necessary to stick to it. Exceptions ought to be allowed for only in quite inevitable cases. Man is subject to habits, and once accustomed to a definite timetable for his exercises, he will feel compelled to do his exercises. In the same way as there is a want for the necessities of life such as eating, drinking and sleeping, it ought to happen in regard to the exercises which must, as it were, become a habit. This is the sole way to attain a sure and full success. There is no prize without diligence. It is my ambition to arrange for the instructions as if they were meant for the busiest man. He who has plenty of time of hand may be able to be occupied with two or more exercises at the same time.

His emphasis in that whole area was on having a schedule that you stick to when it comes to practicing the exercises, so you can be constantly progressing, not stopping drinking (though of course, if that's what you want to do, then absolutely feel free to). So you set it up and say "I will practice voiding my mind of thoughts at 9pm for 30 minutes every night" etc. Then you stick to that.

As to how to do that, ultimately what it comes down to is just making a firm decision. That is the first step. Many people make a decision without really making a decision. They say "I will start this practice routine"...but they don't give themselves a set time to do it in etc. They always leave an "escape route". The first step is to close the escape route, and make it definite.

After that it is a lot easier, and it just gets easier the more you stick to it - until a point will come when it is harder NOT to.

Then, make sure you know WHY you are doing this, what it gets you (even...no, especially if they are "egoistic" reasons, since that will appeal to your motivation much more) Actually write out reasons why and review them occasionally, even modifying them as they may change over time. Keep a "diary" of your practice, changes over time so you can see progress that was made to help keep you motivated, knowing you ARE progressing.

Initially, when you wake up or before sleeping (or after meditating for a while) you can as vividly as possible just imagine to yourself that you are keeping a habit and doing the exercises. So at night time, you might imagine getting up in the morning, seeing the clock with the time that you have decided to practice, and see yourself sitting down and doing the exercises for however many minutes you decide (and while your at it, see yourself as finding them easy, enjoyable and doing them well). And keep that imagination nice and easy. It really will help the habit form. It doesn't have to be hard. :)

When you do introspection you can look into reasons why you may NOT practice, what would lead you to avoid it. And delve deeper into why you might do what you do to avoid it - what do you get by doing that which makes it more pleasurable then doing the exercises (or less painful). Analyse it. Look at ways the practices ARE pleasurable, make doing that appear more painful. Look into your beliefs behind why you avoid it, then you can change them into beliefs that encourage your practice more...loads of ways to do that, such as bardon's methods of impregnating drink, food, air...autosuggestion. Affirmations and particularly visualizations work well after meditation (visualization is better if you are NOT doing it to change, but simply to "pretend" for the time that that is how you are) There are really countless effective ways to do it.

 
Title: Re: Who is Practicing the IIH?
Post by: akuigla on August 31, 2011, 12:01:24 AM
Thank you both for your answers.
Title: Re: Who is Practicing the IIH?
Post by: Akenu on August 31, 2011, 01:51:32 AM
Thank you both for your answers.
It is very helpful.
But my energy level is quite low,most of the day I feel tired,like squeezed towel.
The reason I went into IIH is that my life energy is almost nonexistent.For example I have to go to sleep around 9 pm,sometimes earlier.And I need often sleep during the day.
I don't know anything about energy,how to balance it or make it stronger,so if you will be  kind to teach me I will be very grateful.
Aku

I can recommend Qi Gong as it also have techniques for storing energy.
Title: Re: Who is Practicing the IIH?
Post by: akuigla on September 01, 2011, 10:09:59 AM
 to Trismegistos:
I googled for Sukha Purvaka and I found different ways of doing that:Most teachers say to close one than other nostril and breath in and out certain number of Om-s(what is it?).Others just say to breath in for ,say,6 sec,,retain the breath for  6 sec,and breath out for 6 sec.Than some says to do certain numbers from 10 to 140 a day Sukha Purvaka.
It is confusing.
I have a feeling that you know what are you doing!
What is, in your opinion, Trismegistos,the right way to do Sukha purvaka?
thanks,
aku
Title: Re: Who is Practicing the IIH?
Post by: ArcaTuthus on September 01, 2011, 11:52:47 AM
Not to speak for Trismegistos but Veos' article on Yoga Here (http://forums.vsociety.net/index.php/topic,12925.0.html) is most likely what he will point you to. Part 4 is Pranayama, where he will explain breath work.
Title: Re: Who is Practicing the IIH?
Post by: trismegistos on September 01, 2011, 08:10:46 PM
Not to speak for Trismegistos but Veos' article on Yoga Here (http://forums.vsociety.net/index.php/topic,12925.0.html) is most likely what he will point you to. Part 4 is Pranayama, where he will explain breath work.

This lol
Title: Re: Who is Practicing the IIH?
Post by: akuigla on September 02, 2011, 12:40:14 AM
Thanks,
This is it! :)
Aku
Title: Re: Who is Practicing the IIH?
Post by: naimihero on September 03, 2011, 01:21:44 AM
for some reason i just got started on it yesterday, and i can do all of the mental excercises ive seen so far on my first try. maybe its cause ive been doing a certain kind of imagery training for the past few years.
anyways do u think i should just go through it like that, or practice the same excercises again, as if i cant do them yet?
Title: Re: Who is Practicing the IIH?
Post by: Jordana Divinorum on September 15, 2011, 03:39:10 PM
I've been practicing from this book for a few years on and off.  Has anyone ever had success getting physical results from the elemental exercises?
Title: Re: Who is Practicing the IIH?
Post by: Aunt Clair on September 19, 2011, 06:50:10 AM
I've been practicing from this book for a few years on and off.  Has anyone ever had success getting physical results from the elemental exercises?
I am not certain what you mean. But I will answer the best I can;
This is a breakdown of the essentials skills taught in IIH;
Step I
 ~ Magic Mental Training
1. Thought control, discipline of thoughts, subordination of thoughts
~ Magic Psychic Training
1. Introspection or self-knowledge
2. Making of the black & white mirrors of the soul
~ Magic Physical Training
1. The material or carnal body
2. mystery of breathing
3. Conscious reception of food
4. The magic of water
Step II
~ Magic Mental Training
1. Autosuggestion or the secret of subconsciousness
2. Concentration exercises
a. Visual
b. Auditory
c. Sensory
d. Olfactory
e. Taste
~ Magic Psychic Training
1. Magic-Astral balance with respect to the elements
2. Transmutation or refinement of the soul
a. By fight or control
b. By auto-suggestion
c. By transmutation
~ Magic Physical training
1. Conscious pore breathing
2. Conscious position of the body
3. Body Control in everyday life, at will
Step III
 ~ Magic Mental Training
1. Concentration of Thoughts with 2 or 3 senses at once
2. Concentration on objects, landscapes, places
3. Concentration on animals & human beings
~ Magic Psychic Training
1. Inhaling of the Elements in the whole body
a. Fire
b. Air
c. Water
d. Earth
~ Magic Physical Training
1. Retaining of Step I, which has to become a habit
2. Accumulation of vital power
a. By breathing through the lungs & pores in the whole body
b. In different parts of the body
Appendix  
3. Impregnation of space for reasons of health, success, &c.
4. Bio-magnetism
Step IV
 ~ Magic Mental Training
1. Transplantation of consciousness
a. Into objects
b. Into animals
c. Into human beings
~ Magic Psychic Training
1. Accumulation of elements
a. In the whole body
b. In single parts of the body
2. Production of element-harmony in regions of the body
~ Magic Physical Training
1. Rituals & their practical applicability
a. Gesticulations
b. Bearings (Asanas)
c. Postures of the fingers (Mudras)
Step V
~ Magic Mental Training
1. Space magic
~ Magic Psychic Training
1. Projection of elements outward
a. Through one’s own body, accumulated through the solar plexus
b. Accumulated through the hands
2. Outward projection (of element energy)without passing through the body
 ~ Magic Physical Training
1. Preparation for passive communication with the invisible ones
a. Release of the own hand
b. Preparation of the fingers with help of the pendulum, &c
2. Passive Communication:
a. With the own guardian genius
b. With deceased people & other beings
Step VI
~ Magic Mental Training
1. Meditation on the own spirit
2. Becoming conscious of the senses in the spirit
~ Magic Psychic Training
1. Preparation to master the Akasa principle
2. Deliberate induction of trance with the help of Akasa
3. Mastering the elements with an individual ritual from Akasa
~ Magic Physical Training
1. Deliberate creation of beings:
a. Elementals
b. Larvae
c. Phantoms
Step VII
~ Magic Mental Training
1. Analysis of the spirit with respect to the practice
 ~ Magic Psychic Training
1. Development of the astral senses with the help of elements & fluid condensers:
a. Clairvoyance
b. Clairaudience
c. Clairsentience
~ Magic Physical Training
1. Creation of elementaries by different methods
2. Magic animation of pictures
My peers and I were able to project into paintings together and find a realm connected to them like a private mindscape or dreamscape, not all paintings are conducive to this though. We did not use the method of cardboard and condensers. We have animated statues to evoke the teacher or angel associated with that statue.So this is not impossible but the method Bardon suggests can be impractical, in my opinion.
http://forums.vsociety.net/index.php/topic,19445.15.html
Step VIII
~ Magic Mental Training
1. Preparation for mental wandering
2. Practice of mental wandering:
a. In the room
b. Short distances
c. Visits to friends, relatives, &c.
~ Magic Psychic Training
1. The great moment of Now
2. No clinging to the past
3. Concentration disturbances as a compass of the magic equilibrium
4. Mastering the electric & magnetic fluids
~ Magic Physical Training
1. Magic influence through the elements
2. Fluid condensers:
a. Simple condensers
b. Compound condensers
c. Fluid condensers for magic mirrors
d. Preparation of a magic mirror with fluid condensers
Step IX
~ Magic Mental Training
1. Practice of clairvoyance with magic mirrors
a. Seeing through time & space
b. Distant effect through magic mirrors
c. Different tasks of projection through the magic mirror
~ Magic Psychic Training
1. Deliberate separation of the astral body from the material body
2. Impregnation of the astral body with the four divine fundamental qualities
~ Magic Physical Training
1. Treatment of the sick with the electromagnetic fluid
2. Magical loading of talismans, amulets & gems
3. Wish realization through electromagnetic balls in Akasa (“volting”)
Step X
~ Magic Mental Training
1. Elevation of the spirit to higher levels
~ Magic Psychic Training
1. Conscious communication with the personal God
2. Communication with deities &c.
~ Magic Physical Training
1. Several methods for acquiring magic faculties

This list is the summary provided by the author Franz Bardon. All of these are possible to accomplish. However there are a number of skills which are not on this basal list and some of those are more difficult. For example;
I cannot ignite a cottonball with fire energy
I cannot levitate the body but I can lift out of the body to the Higher Planes.
I will not put "magic" fluid in my eyes but I am already clairvoyant.
I did not make the magic mirror because of the difficulty in getting materials and the cost involved but I would love to have one and I do scry with a crystal ball and other magical tools.
 I do have a few mates online who have made a magic mirror and posted images. I would love to borrow one for a session or have one of my own but not yet...

I know a lot of magicians locally. None of them can levitate or ignite with energy either.But levitation and ignition are not beginner skills. And imo, Bardon did not do these either. There is nothing that I have found that said Bardon could levitate

And clairvoyance, clairaudience and projection were not his forte. So he does not teach these as well as he teaches other skills.

Bardon was expert in the use of specific Hermetic energies though and there is no better book to begin magic in English or in any other language, or so I am told , and so I believe.

A group of us went through IIH. On the first pass, we did not complete as much as we did on each successive pass. Every time I have participated in a group or lead a group through IIH, I have accomplished more and learned more. I can confirm that it is definitely possible to complete these works.

When I began IIH, I was already clairvoyant. I was able to project in OBE and in mystic projection and had prognosticative dreams and I worked as a Reiki Healer.

IIH took me to another level. I learned about elemental energies and how to invoke and express specific elemental energies as needed. I learned the importance of asana and revised and improved other abilities and skills.
Importantly, I had a number of Kundalini events. My ability to see, hear, call and fly has improved so very much that I highly recommend the work of Franz Bardon.

However, I caution you that this sort of thread has routinely been met with disparagement on VS and other forums. Don't let that discourage you, please. There are many members here who study IIH and some of these will help and encourage you. But some of these made little progress themselves and they will discourage all others. This is the way of most forums.

But completion of IIH is possible. And if there is anyway I can help you, please ask. Imho, the raison d'etre or reason to live is to learn to love and to learn to communicate with the HGA and ascend to meet our maker in henios. IIH teaches the path of Hermetic Alchemy and Ascension Alchemy and Kaballah.
Here are some links for you;
http://fbf.hermetics.com/index.php/
http://forums.riverofenlightenment.com/index.php/board,36.0.html
http://www.sacred-texts.com/alc/hermmuse/index.htm
http://www.gnosis.org/library/hermet.htm
http://www.levity.com/alchemy/
http://athenaeum.asiya.org/Lomer_7_hermetic_letters.pdf
http://processmediainc.com/titles/The%20Seven%20Laws.pdf
http://www.hermeticresearch.org/
http://hermetic.com/
http://hermetic.com/crowley/
http://www.plotinus.com/plato_allegory_copy2.htm
http://www.esoteric.msu.edu/Merkur.html
http://www.plotinus.com/
http://www.plotinus.com/mysticism1.htm
http://www.kybalion.org/kybalion.php
http://www.tree.org/b11a.htm
http://www.hermeticscience.com/
http://www.digital-brilliance.com/
http://www.hermeticmagick.com/

Title: Re: Who is Practicing the IIH?
Post by: INFINITE LIGHT on September 19, 2011, 08:58:17 PM
I am not certain what you mean. But I will answer the best I can;
This is a breakdown of the essentials skills taught in IIH;
Step I
 ~ Magic Mental Training
1. Thought control, discipline of thoughts, subordination of thoughts
~ Magic Psychic Training
1. Introspection or self-knowledge
2. Making of the black & white mirrors of the soul
~ Magic Physical Training
1. The material or carnal body
2. mystery of breathing
3. Conscious reception of food
4. The magic of water
Step II
~ Magic Mental Training
1. Autosuggestion or the secret of subconsciousness
2. Concentration exercises
a. Visual
b. Auditory
c. Sensory
d. Olfactory
e. Taste
~ Magic Psychic Training
1. Magic-Astral balance with respect to the elements
2. Transmutation or refinement of the soul
a. By fight or control
b. By auto-suggestion
c. By transmutation
~ Magic Physical training
1. Conscious pore breathing
2. Conscious position of the body
3. Body Control in everyday life, at will
Step III
 ~ Magic Mental Training
1. Concentration of Thoughts with 2 or 3 senses at once
2. Concentration on objects, landscapes, places
3. Concentration on animals & human beings
~ Magic Psychic Training
1. Inhaling of the Elements in the whole body
a. Fire
b. Air
c. Water
d. Earth
~ Magic Physical Training
1. Retaining of Step I, which has to become a habit
2. Accumulation of vital power
a. By breathing through the lungs & pores in the whole body
b. In different parts of the body
Appendix  
3. Impregnation of space for reasons of health, success, &c.
4. Bio-magnetism
Step IV
 ~ Magic Mental Training
1. Transplantation of consciousness
a. Into objects
b. Into animals
c. Into human beings
~ Magic Psychic Training
1. Accumulation of elements
a. In the whole body
b. In single parts of the body
2. Production of element-harmony in regions of the body
~ Magic Physical Training
1. Rituals & their practical applicability
a. Gesticulations
b. Bearings (Asanas)
c. Postures of the fingers (Mudras)
Step V
~ Magic Mental Training
1. Space magic
~ Magic Psychic Training
1. Projection of elements outward
a. Through one’s own body, accumulated through the solar plexus
b. Accumulated through the hands
2. Outward projection (of element energy)without passing through the body
 ~ Magic Physical Training
1. Preparation for passive communication with the invisible ones
a. Release of the own hand
b. Preparation of the fingers with help of the pendulum, &c
2. Passive Communication:
a. With the own guardian genius
b. With deceased people & other beings
Step VI
~ Magic Mental Training
1. Meditation on the own spirit
2. Becoming conscious of the senses in the spirit
~ Magic Psychic Training
1. Preparation to master the Akasa principle
2. Deliberate induction of trance with the help of Akasa
3. Mastering the elements with an individual ritual from Akasa
~ Magic Physical Training
1. Deliberate creation of beings:
a. Elementals
b. Larvae
c. Phantoms
Step VII
~ Magic Mental Training
1. Analysis of the spirit with respect to the practice
 ~ Magic Psychic Training
1. Development of the astral senses with the help of elements & fluid condensers:
a. Clairvoyance
b. Clairaudience
c. Clairsentience
~ Magic Physical Training
1. Creation of elementaries by different methods
2. Magic animation of pictures
My peers and I were able to project into paintings together and find a realm connected to them like a private mindscape or dreamscape, not all paintings are conducive to this though. We did not use the method of cardboard and condensers. We have animated statues to evoke the teacher or angel associated with that statue.So this is not impossible but the method Bardon suggests can be impractical, in my opinion.
http://forums.vsociety.net/index.php/topic,19445.15.html
Step VIII
~ Magic Mental Training
1. Preparation for mental wandering
2. Practice of mental wandering:
a. In the room
b. Short distances
c. Visits to friends, relatives, &c.
~ Magic Psychic Training
1. The great moment of Now
2. No clinging to the past
3. Concentration disturbances as a compass of the magic equilibrium
4. Mastering the electric & magnetic fluids
~ Magic Physical Training
1. Magic influence through the elements
2. Fluid condensers:
a. Simple condensers
b. Compound condensers
c. Fluid condensers for magic mirrors
d. Preparation of a magic mirror with fluid condensers
Step IX
~ Magic Mental Training
1. Practice of clairvoyance with magic mirrors
a. Seeing through time & space
b. Distant effect through magic mirrors
c. Different tasks of projection through the magic mirror
~ Magic Psychic Training
1. Deliberate separation of the astral body from the material body
2. Impregnation of the astral body with the four divine fundamental qualities
~ Magic Physical Training
1. Treatment of the sick with the electromagnetic fluid
2. Magical loading of talismans, amulets & gems
3. Wish realization through electromagnetic balls in Akasa (“volting”)
Step X
~ Magic Mental Training
1. Elevation of the spirit to higher levels
~ Magic Psychic Training
1. Conscious communication with the personal God
2. Communication with deities &c.
~ Magic Physical Training
1. Several methods for acquiring magic faculties

This list is the summary provided by the author Franz Bardon. All of these are possible to accomplish. However there are a number of skills which are not on this basal list and some of those are more difficult. For example;
I cannot ignite a cottonball with fire energy
I cannot levitate the body but I can lift out of the body to the Higher Planes.
I will not put "magic" fluid in my eyes but I am already clairvoyant.
I did not make the magic mirror because of the difficulty in getting materials and the cost involved but I would love to have one and I do scry with a crystal ball and other magical tools.
 I do have a few mates online who have made a magic mirror and posted images. I would love to borrow one for a session or have one of my own but not yet...

I know a lot of magicians locally. None of them can levitate or ignite with energy either.But levitation and ignition are not beginner skills. And imo, Bardon did not do these either. There is nothing that I have found that said Bardon could levitate

And clairvoyance, clairaudience and projection were not his forte. So he does not teach these as well as he teaches other skills.

Bardon was expert in the use of specific Hermetic energies though and there is no better book to begin magic in English or in any other language, or so I am told , and so I believe.

A group of us went through IIH. On the first pass, we did not complete as much as we did on each successive pass. Every time I have participated in a group or lead a group through IIH, I have accomplished more and learned more. I can confirm that it is definitely possible to complete these works.

When I began IIH, I was already clairvoyant. I was able to project in OBE and in mystic projection and had prognosticative dreams and I worked as a Reiki Healer.

IIH took me to another level. I learned about elemental energies and how to invoke and express specific elemental energies as needed. I learned the importance of asana and revised and improved other abilities and skills.
Importantly, I had a number of Kundalini events. My ability to see, hear, call and fly has improved so very much that I highly recommend the work of Franz Bardon.

However, I caution you that this sort of thread has routinely been met with disparagement on VS and other forums. Don't let that discourage you, please. There are many members here who study IIH and some of these will help and encourage you. But some of these made little progress themselves and they will discourage all others. This is the way of most forums.

But completion of IIH is possible. And if there is anyway I can help you, please ask. Imho, the raison d'etre or reason to live is to learn to love and to learn to communicate with the HGA and ascend to meet our maker in henios. IIH teaches the path of Hermetic Alchemy and Ascension Alchemy and Kaballah.
Here are some links for you;
http://fbf.hermetics.com/index.php/
http://forums.riverofenlightenment.com/index.php/board,36.0.html
http://www.sacred-texts.com/alc/hermmuse/index.htm
http://www.gnosis.org/library/hermet.htm
http://www.levity.com/alchemy/
http://athenaeum.asiya.org/Lomer_7_hermetic_letters.pdf
http://processmediainc.com/titles/The%20Seven%20Laws.pdf
http://www.hermeticresearch.org/
http://hermetic.com/
http://hermetic.com/crowley/
http://www.plotinus.com/plato_allegory_copy2.htm
http://www.esoteric.msu.edu/Merkur.html
http://www.plotinus.com/
http://www.plotinus.com/mysticism1.htm
http://www.kybalion.org/kybalion.php
http://www.tree.org/b11a.htm
http://www.hermeticscience.com/
http://www.digital-brilliance.com/
http://www.hermeticmagick.com/



Aunt Clair I know this is an old discussion about the eye thing and all and I was no where near skilled enough to be in it when you and veos/prophecy were discussing it but your eyes have programming and water can be programmed to change the programming.

How you see the things around you and the inside of your head can be directly affected. Just like how a guy can look at a girls cleavage automatically when they see it or get focused when a all is thrown at them each situation has eye programming just like each chakras vibration is different for the situation you are in.

And me using a tigers eye crystal for it's superb looking effect and programming it into water and putting my eyes in it to get they eye programming down is the same as me programming water or anything else with the ability.

Of course I don't have to use water. But physical programming of something touching a physical thing like the eye is of course more efficient. Channel the energy using a tool that directly effects the sphere we're on and all. Dame concept for energy healing with heal with the energy that the problem was started on of course.


This I experience so no speculation of course. I'm just mentioning it cause when the ability came up I thought directly to your conversation cause it was the only outside reference I had for what was going on.
Title: Re: Who is Practicing the IIH?
Post by: Aunt Clair on September 21, 2011, 04:04:15 AM
@Infinite Light. My post was not about an"eye thing". I replied to Jordana Divinorum that there are magicians who have had success getting physical results with most ,but not all, of the exercises listed in IIH. I am clairvoyant . I do not require help with eye programming . But if you feel that putting "magic" condenser drops in your eyes made you clairvoyant, then please demonstrate that to me, I would love to see your results.

Title: Re: Who is Practicing the IIH?
Post by: trismegistos on September 21, 2011, 09:53:39 AM
I don't know what translation you have, but in mine it doesn't say to put the liquid directly in your eyes.  In fact, I don't know anyone who would recommend putting alcohol directly in your eyes without problems.

I also wouldn't call looking into a cup of coffee as a magic mirror and seeing events halfway across the world as "clairvoyance wasn't his forte". 
Title: Re: Who is Practicing the IIH?
Post by: akuigla on September 21, 2011, 11:01:54 PM
As a doctor, I have to say:
As a general rule:when you are not sure what to do,seek help or advice.As for any chemical supstance,the pharmacy is always near by where you can ask a pharmacist for advice.
Al least,google your question and some answers will come.
Title: Re: Who is Practicing the IIH?
Post by: Akenu on September 22, 2011, 02:06:33 AM
Actually Bardon's describe how to prepare a "fire water" to fix bad eyes and also improve clairvoyance, I don't remember in which step it was, but I am sure, Aunt Clair, that you will find it.
Title: Re: Who is Practicing the IIH?
Post by: trismegistos on September 22, 2011, 10:25:46 AM
Yeah, you prepare a fluid condenser, condense the fire element into it, but you don't put the substance directly into the eyes.  You moisten cotton with it, and put it over closed eyes so it is on your eyelids.
Title: Re: Who is Practicing the IIH?
Post by: for_Him on September 23, 2011, 12:21:03 AM
it is so beautiful that this website exists and all of you are here :)

i am at Step I (1 hour in the morning on thought meditations, and 1 hour in evening), now discovered yoga articles by wonderful Veos, planning to incorporate it and hopefully aim to replace sleep with meditation. Very Strictly for me, my road ended in IIH.

any practical tips on replacing sleep with meditation would be very welcomed :)
Title: Re: Who is Practicing the IIH?
Post by: Akenu on September 23, 2011, 01:54:02 AM
it is so beautiful that this website exists and all of you are here :)

i am at Step I (1 hour in the morning on thought meditations, and 1 hour in evening), now discovered yoga articles by wonderful Veos, planning to incorporate it and hopefully aim to replace sleep with meditation. Very Strictly for me, my road ended in IIH.

any practical tips on replacing sleep with meditation would be very welcomed :)

It's hard to meditate while sitting when you are tired, body still wants to lie down. I myself cannot sleep while on my back, so I use this pose for meditation. I have found out that meditation replenish energy faster, then sleep, but you still need some sleep to relax and regenerate your muscles. I usually do about 3 hours of meditation and 4 hours of sleep.
Title: Re: Who is Practicing the IIH?
Post by: for_Him on September 23, 2011, 04:56:57 AM
thank you awakened,

i guess i will just keep pushing it to see how far i can go right now, and then the body will establish a balance over time
Title: Re: Who is Practicing the IIH
Post by: for_Him on September 24, 2011, 02:28:50 AM
Strictly is the only way to truly practice Initiation Into Hermetics.  If you are not going to practice it strictly, don't bother at all.

i have to disagree :)

For it is better to walk slowly towards a goal,
than not to walk at all.

:)
Title: Re: Who is Practicing the IIH?
Post by: INFINITE LIGHT on September 24, 2011, 10:11:03 AM
Not alchohol never used alcohol.

No, putting things in my eye didn't make me clairvoyant. only after obtaining clairvoyance It's just that the physical eyes have programming and can be programming that can be changed. it'll effect the way you interpet the physical things you see. regular eye progrmaming if you want to call it programming can change how your physical eyes work in each situations and help you see the mantras or concepts that you see.

programming a decree or affirmations in it so that's all you see and such.

:)

I was just saying the dynamics of the physical eye exist really. And any energy you want to effect the eye can change the hue of what you interpret what you physicall see.
Title: Re: Who is Practicing the IIH
Post by: Steve on September 24, 2011, 10:56:50 AM
Strictly is the only way to truly practice Initiation Into Hermetics.  If you are not going to practice it strictly, don't bother at all.

i have to disagree :)

For it is better to walk slowly towards a goal,
than not to walk at all.

:)
Not practicing the IIH strictly isn't like walking towards a goal slowly. Even Bardon says to take the time you need, even if that means you have to walk slowly. I'm pretty sure what Oriens meant was that if you're not practicing the IIH strictly, then it's a lot like trying to bake a cake without adhering to a proper recipe. Can you still make a delicious cake without adhering to a recipe? Certainly some people can, but those people usually already have some great cooking skills to do that. And most of the people who are picking up the IIH want the kind of cake that cooking by the IIH recipe will give, rather than some other kind of cake.

In other words, you don't make black forest cake by following the directions for making cheesecake, and if you're trying to make black forest cake then you should make sure to follow the instructions carefully until you're experienced enough to make wise substitutions ;) So Oriens is just reminding people to please follow the recipe.

~Steve
Title: Re: Who is Practicing the IIH?
Post by: for_Him on September 24, 2011, 11:09:59 AM
beautiful reply steve :) perfectly valid logical counter-argument
it is my desire for people to try iih, even if it is not strictly, but loosely at first, and later however their heart will guide them
Title: Re: Who is Practicing the IIH?
Post by: Jordana Divinorum on September 29, 2011, 11:27:10 AM
Aunt Clair: Thnaks for your reply.  I've never heard of anyone getting physical results from the elemental exercises in this book, so I was wondering if it was possible.  Would it be better to repeat them over and over until you get better, or are there other ways of making the elemental energy more potent?
Title: Re: Who is Practicing the IIH?
Post by: trismegistos on September 29, 2011, 03:05:56 PM
Over the weekend my teacher condensed the water element to such a degree that it formed a rain cloud, and then dispersed it a few moments later.  You can very well condense an element into it's physical form, but it takes a very high level of skill.  You're most likely not going to create physical fire for example before reaching Initiation or Gnosis, so to put so much emphasis on such mundane feats is useless, use the exercises to master the elements in yourself, and then you will have mastery of them externally after that soon enough.  Everything in it's time.
Title: Re: Who is Practicing the IIH?
Post by: Octo on October 01, 2011, 03:57:19 AM
good luck too!
Title: Re: Who is Practicing the IIH?
Post by: for_Him on October 01, 2011, 07:24:24 AM
you and me in same boat then Octo, good luck :)
Title: Re: Who is Practicing the IIH?
Post by: Octo on October 01, 2011, 07:51:16 AM
I dont think so.. :S
Title: Re: Who is Practicing the IIH?
Post by: Melchizedek on October 01, 2011, 09:52:18 AM
Here is the key!

(http://www.world-mysteries.com/mpl_2k1.jpg)
Title: Re: Who is Practicing the IIH?
Post by: for_Him on October 01, 2011, 01:14:43 PM
Melchizedek, what's the key?
Title: Re: Who is Practicing the IIH?
Post by: Melchizedek on October 01, 2011, 02:31:40 PM
Melchizedek, what's the key?

This is for you to figure out for yourself
Title: Re: Who is Practicing the IIH?
Post by: INFINITE LIGHT on October 02, 2011, 03:48:39 PM
Here is the key!

(http://www.world-mysteries.com/mpl_2k1.jpg)

7 degrees?
Title: Re: Who is Practicing the IIH?
Post by: for_Him on October 04, 2011, 08:11:48 AM
Melchizedek,
the key = is no matter which path you take, how long it takes you, sooner or later, as long as you keep going up, you will end up at the same place, as anyone else (i.e. the summit)

is that what you meant?
Title: Re: Who is Practicing the IIH?
Post by: Akenu on October 04, 2011, 09:13:02 AM
Unless you go the extra mile, then you will start going down on the opposite side of pyramid, right?
Title: Re: Who is Practicing the IIH?
Post by: trismegistos on October 04, 2011, 11:43:22 AM
The 4 sides of the pyramid (earth/manifestation) all emanate from the single top peak (spirit), and so though there is an illusion of separation, all is in fact pure consciousness.

That's what I think when I see a pyramid at least, the Spirit emanating downward into Manifestation.
Title: Re: Who is Practicing the IIH?
Post by: for_Him on October 04, 2011, 02:56:29 PM
but of course trismegistos, there is a whole chapter in the big golden dawn book just about that, and they do different things with it, opening it up and closing it down etc

about going the extra mile, one must be careful not to force themselves too much, or it will look like they are progressing but they are not, things do need to be done gently and patiently, not forced with resistance and force, as i learnt today reading a buddhist book to help with step I of iih
Title: Re: Who is Practicing the IIH?
Post by: Melchizedek on October 04, 2011, 03:18:29 PM
The pyramid itself is the key
Title: Re: Who is Practicing the IIH?
Post by: trismegistos on October 04, 2011, 07:15:20 PM
You mean standing 4 square and upright (perfect square=elemental equilibrium) with the Spirit reigning over all your actions? lol
Title: Re: Who is Practicing the IIH?
Post by: Melchizedek on October 05, 2011, 02:12:23 PM
You mean standing 4 square and upright (perfect square=elemental equilibrium) with the Spirit reigning over all your actions? lol

The Great Pyramid of Giza is an inter-dimensional doorway to the forgotten temple
Title: Re: Who is Practicing the IIH?
Post by: Steve on October 05, 2011, 04:50:45 PM
Look, Melchizedek, friendly suggestion: if what you're saying isn't total bullshit, then either state the hint for those who are ready for it and then drop it, or give up the complete answer. There's no reason to continue telling people to consider something you've already told them to consider, without giving concrete information rather than making more statements that make you sound like a quack.

~Steve
Title: Re: Who is Practicing the IIH?
Post by: for_Him on October 07, 2011, 05:53:35 AM
steve, i've taken 2 lessons from Melchizedek's pyramid post
1. Melchizedek's ego is enjoying appearing to know more than the others (hence he is not giving up the secret to which he is referring :)
2. Our (the reader's) egos need to be controlled not to react to Melchizedek's ego's behaviour

lets use this as an opportunity to soften our own ego's reactions, whether Melchizedek does give up the answer or not,
Us softening our own reactions is the real treasure in this whole experience, I think, it is not in whether Melchizedek can tell us about a pyramid or not
Title: Re: Who is Practicing the IIH?
Post by: Armond on October 07, 2011, 08:59:04 AM
Still, in all honesty the Spinx the oldest monument built, perhaps even before the Egyptians moved there, should be a concern as a physical temple site.




I'm not hiding knowledge of any. I just do not know.
Title: Re: Who is Practicing the IIH?
Post by: for_Him on October 07, 2011, 10:03:49 AM
anyways, how is the knowledge about a pyramid going to help any of us in our practical journey? it is not. i know what i must do next, and nothing about a pyramid is going to change it.
the discussion is a bit of a waste of time :)
Title: Re: Who is Practicing the IIH?
Post by: Melchizedek on October 07, 2011, 10:27:21 AM
(http://www.webclassifieds.us/user_images/6303558.jpg)

Take a look at the cover of IIH. You need to keep in mind, that the reason you are doing the exercises from this book is to attain from this book what is depicted on the cover.

This is all that I've been trying to say.

If you mediatate on the Pyramid it will help in the understanding of this

Title: Re: Who is Practicing the IIH?
Post by: Akenu on October 07, 2011, 10:33:33 AM
Sigh...
ORIGINAL cover of IIH as depicted by František Bardon is a gate.
Reason for that is that IIH (Initiation Into Hermetics) isn't the original name. Original name was Brána k opravdovému zasvěcení, which in translation means Gate to the real initiation. I am Czech and I own that copy.

Melchizedek, things you say here are even worse than of the New Age. Please change your avatar and stop talking about IIH as you knew it from inside out.
Title: Re: Who is Practicing the IIH?
Post by: Armond on October 07, 2011, 12:30:22 PM
Please lets steer the topic away from Melchizedek and back to the IIH itself   :P
Title: Re: Who is Practicing the IIH?
Post by: lailoken on October 07, 2011, 02:47:38 PM
In regards to Melchizedek's "key" conundrum. I stroked my chin and thought, "hmmm...quadrapolar magnet? Cross of equated forces?" But I could be wrong.

Anyway, Awakened, you mention you're Czech. I'm curious how Bardon is thought of in your homeland? I mean is he and his work well known? If I was in the Czech Republic and mentioned his name to any random person would it be met with an acknowledgement? Since I started IIH I've always been curious of his standing in his homeland.

By the way, Awakened, Czech Republic 0 Spain 2, GO ON THE SCOTS!! (Sorry, sorry, couldn't help myself)   
Title: Re: Who is Practicing the IIH?
Post by: Akenu on October 08, 2011, 01:01:09 PM
I would say it's the same as anywhere else. There are small occult groups knowing Franz Bardon and also few lodges, but general public doesn't know much about him. But when they know, they of course have a deep respect for him :-).

I work in the capital, which was visited by many great people including Aleister Crowley, John Dee, Eliphas Levi, still they are not publicly well known :-).

Quote
Czech Republic 0 Spain 2

Good for you :-). I personally don't watch such events, I don't like passive sports (sitting in front of TV yelling at players on the field). But it's true that watching sports is more or less Czech national sport :-D
Title: Re: Who is Practicing the IIH?
Post by: trismegistos on October 08, 2011, 07:49:27 PM
This may be relevant.  I'd say about everyone in the occult community over there knows who he is.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lMWQlP4sQv4&feature=player_profilepage
Title: Re: Who is Practicing the IIH?
Post by: Aunt Clair on October 09, 2011, 05:26:45 AM
The Great Pyramid of Giza is an inter-dimensional doorway to the forgotten temple
Bardon alludes to modern Hermetic Magick having roots in ancient Egyptian Rites of Initiation.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Initiation_%28Theosophy%29
Alice Bailey wrote about contemporary Initiatic Magick ...
http://www.sacred-texts.com/eso/ihas/index.htm
http://www.xoor.eu/sat/
...as did Madame Helena Blavatsky, Dr. Joshua David Stone, Diana Cooper and others.

The first mystic initiation is taken by projecting to the King's Chamber of the Great Pyramid where Thoth and Horus appear to the aspirant. Attunements and lessons are given and this initiation is concluded by passing through apex of the pyramid which has been called "Blowing off the capstone".
http://forums.riverofenlightenment.com/index.php/topic,394.0.html

In the next initiation, the initiate projects back to the Great Pyramid and draws energy again there to project to Golden Chamber of the Priest Angel Melchiezedek where a rod of initiation is presented to the aspirant. Further attunements are given by Uriel , Michael, and others which lift the vibration of the aspirant so that they can continue to ascend over time with development.
This is the 2nd Mystic Initiation in projection which is called the '6th initiation' by Bailey. She enumerated physical initiations which may or may not be pertinent to ascension alchemy.
http://forums.riverofenlightenment.com/index.php/topic,395.0.html

The third initiation begins again at the King's Chamber although some go directly through the Akashic Hall of Records to the Great Manse of Shamballah.
http://forums.riverofenlightenment.com/index.php/topic,396.0.html

The fourth mystic or 8th initiation of Alice Bailey is taken back at the pyramid in the Queen's Chamber to balance yin and yang.
http://forums.riverofenlightenment.com/index.php/topic,2177.msg12580.html#msg12580

In the 10th Initiation initiates manifest an ashram . We were directed to shape our first ashram as a pair of square based pyramids conjoined at the base;
/\
\/

Some subsequent initiations will begin in the pyramid again. For example the initiate has attunements again in the Queen's Chamber and later in the Death Chamber of the Great Pyramid, too.
 
Title: Re: Who is Practicing the IIH?
Post by: lailoken on October 09, 2011, 06:11:57 AM
Thanks, Awakened, I suppose it's like anywhere else, not everyone (the majority) takes an interest in the occult. Here in Britain Crowley is more infamous rather than famous to be people who don't know much about the occult/magic, though that's more to do with the colourful personal life associated with him. And a little light joshing, sir, there was no bragging intended.

@Trimegistos. Yes, the Martin Faulks interview with Lumir Bardon? 
Title: Re: Who is Practicing the IIH?
Post by: Jordana Divinorum on October 09, 2011, 11:40:17 PM
Over the weekend my teacher condensed the water element to such a degree that it formed a rain cloud, and then dispersed it a few moments later.  You can very well condense an element into it's physical form, but it takes a very high level of skill.  You're most likely not going to create physical fire for example before reaching Initiation or Gnosis, so to put so much emphasis on such mundane feats is useless, use the exercises to master the elements in yourself, and then you will have mastery of them externally after that soon enough.  Everything in it's time.

Sorry if I seem ignorant, but being able to create fire doesn't seem like a mundane feat to me.  If you did it publicly, you would be the first person in the history of the entire planet to prove magic is real and you could easily become rich.  To me a mundane feat would be walking down to the grocery store and finding all of the items on your shopping list.  Even if you didn't work your magic in the public eye, you would still probably be the first, or one of the first people on earth to perform such a task, or reach such a level.  Bardon claims such things are possible, so it's up to us whether we subscribe to that or not because there has never been any evidence of psychic powers or controlling the elements with your mind. I like to think it's possible, but if the book simply helps me because a better person, then I'm happy with that too.
Title: Re: Who is Practicing the IIH?
Post by: ArcaTuthus on October 10, 2011, 01:11:22 AM

Sorry if I seem ignorant, but being able to create fire doesn't seem like a mundane feat to me.  If you did it publicly, you would be the first person in the history of the entire planet to prove magic is real and you could easily become rich.  To me a mundane feat would be walking down to the grocery store and finding all of the items on your shopping list.  Even if you didn't work your magic in the public eye, you would still probably be the first, or one of the first people on earth to perform such a task, or reach such a level.  Bardon claims such things are possible, so it's up to us whether we subscribe to that or not because there has never been any evidence of psychic powers or controlling the elements with your mind. I like to think it's possible, but if the book simply helps me become a better person, then I'm happy with that too.

Nothing about your post seems ignorant at all. The bold part of the quote is what makes great magicians in my very humble opinion. There are magicians that can do these things. I say this based on first hand eye witness experience. But I cannot make anyone believe this until they are the witness, and I would argue making people believe that is a waste of time. I know this forum is chalk full of results oriented skepticism, and that is good because it makes the forum unique and valuable. On the other hand, results in this area of learning are very much based on inner personal experience LONG before the outer experience happens. You have to keep in mind that one who is initiated, and has accomplished a elemental equipoise would not show these feats to any but those who are following in their footsteps as students, to give proof in times of doubt. People hate that about Hermeticism and Theurgy, but people hate that it rains when you want to take a walk as well. Doesn't change a thing.
Title: Re: Who is Practicing the IIH?
Post by: trismegistos on October 10, 2011, 12:13:57 PM
What I meant by mundane feat is that creating physical fire has no use in evolving a person, it is simply a "cool trick".  If you go out in public and create fire with your hands, you aren't going to attract people to evolve themselves and become God-realized, you are going to attract them to power and power alone, they will conjure all sorts of ideas of how they could use such power to obtain wealth and fame, instead of what controlling the elements is really about, spiritual evolution.

You certainly wouldn't be the first person to create physical fire though, you just haven't met any Adepts yet.
Title: Re: Who is Practicing the IIH?
Post by: for_Him on October 10, 2011, 01:48:55 PM
Jordana Divinorum, you haven't done your research
there are many examples, and even videos, of people using chi energy or whatever you call it, to start fires with their hands, or make bells ring at a distance, or even manipulating a person's body from a distance (in martial arts usually)

if you look into it, you will find plenty examples. last one i watched was about a chinese guy who said he meditated for 10 years or so, in order to be able to cause fire, and he did cause it for the camera, his usual activities are around healing, and after that one interview he said he can't say any more about what he does, and didn't appear again on camera as far as i understood

there's plenty examples of magic being done, even videos, not fake ones but real ones, if you look into it you'l find all proof you need, if you want to see it first hand, go travel to those places, meet those people, and they will show you what they can do
Title: Re: Who is Practicing the IIH?
Post by: Willi on October 10, 2011, 02:56:14 PM
Jordana Divinorum, you haven't done your research
there are many examples, and even videos, of people using chi energy or whatever you call it, to start fires with their hands, or make bells ring at a distance, or even manipulating a person's body from a distance (in martial arts usually)

if you look into it, you will find plenty examples. last one i watched was about a chinese guy who said he meditated for 10 years or so, in order to be able to cause fire, and he did cause it for the camera, his usual activities are around healing, and after that one interview he said he can't say any more about what he does, and didn't appear again on camera as far as i understood

there's plenty examples of magic being done, even videos, not fake ones but real ones, if you look into it you'l find all proof you need, if you want to see it first hand, go travel to those places, meet those people, and they will show you what they can do
John Chang. Epic. Worth looking into.
Title: Re: Who is Practicing the IIH?
Post by: Jordana Divinorum on October 10, 2011, 03:22:53 PM
Arcatuthus:  Thanks for the response.  I'm wondering, is there any reason why it would be a bad thing if people revealed that magic is real to the public?  If it works with the laws of nature that already exist, why would it be a bad thing to share that with the rest of the world?  I was reading the journal for Imperial Arts where he talked to Astaroth and Astaroth was saying that we're all spiritual beings manipulating a material world.  The decision to pick your nose is mechanically the same as the most complex conjuration you can think of.   I can understand people that are disciplined enough to create elements from their mind not wanting to show off for the public, but I can also understand why the public wouldn't believe in something unless they saw it.  I can tell people that aliens live in my back yard, but I won't expect them to buy into it unless I provide them some sort of proof.  I believe it is possible to do the things we're talking about, I just haven't seen it first hand yet.  That's awesome you had the opportunity to meet with some good magicians.

I understand that you don't want to attract people that are all about wealth and fame, but the trick is, how can they do it themselves without doing the work first, and finding their own balance?  Even if they want fame, they won't have the patience to do the actual work, so it won't matter.  Also, what's wrong with fame/power/wealth? If you're mastering yourself, shouldn't you also have success in the physical world around you?  I've never really heard of people manipulating bodies at a distance.  I guess none of these guys would ever want to enter a martial arts tournament.  I found this video of a kia master: 
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gEDaCIDvj6I
Title: Re: Who is Practicing the IIH?
Post by: ArcaTuthus on October 10, 2011, 06:28:36 PM
I'm wondering, is there any reason why it would be a bad thing if people revealed that magic is real to the public?
I am not even close to being a master of anything, even myself. I am however a student. I am of the opinion that magic is something that needs to happen internally first. The desire to search it out, is part of the process. It really is not about power(s) or anything except for evolution of spirit. I don't think it matters really if anyone believes it, when you have the inner experience there is no need for belief, it becomes truth.

I understand that you don't want to attract people that are all about wealth and fame, but the trick is, how can they do it themselves without doing the work first, and finding their own balance?
I am not sure I understand this question. As far as I can tell, they do the work first. I think I misunderstand what is being asked here?

Even if they want fame, they won't have the patience to do the actual work, so it won't matter.  Also, what's wrong with fame/power/wealth?
Nothing inherently, it is the attachment to these things that hinders us. Fame is ego, Power is relative, Wealth is fleeting.

  If you're mastering yourself, shouldn't you also have success in the physical world around you? 
I suppose so. Success is relative as well.

I've never really heard of people manipulating bodies at a distance.  I guess none of these guys would ever want to enter a martial arts tournament.  I found this video of a kia master: 
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gEDaCIDvj6I
I have seen some pretty crazy martial arts demonstrations by these same magicians I spoke of earlier. In fact many magicians use various martial arts to supplement their practice.
Title: Re: Who is Practicing the IIH?
Post by: for_Him on October 12, 2011, 10:54:08 AM
Willi you are a legend, didn't remember the chinese guys name, thank you!

divinorum - agree with you completely. it is strange that at one end there is whole thing about 'silence, don't throw pearls before pigs' at other end there is the opposite 'Know Thyself'. I think they were afraid that magic would be scorned with bad publicity and magicians would be searched and executed, and voila that already happened. and now magic means nothing but 'trickster'. that damage has already been done. i think it should be made public and people will then believe and learn, and enter on that path. and the path will change them, one step at a time. or they will experience no results. there is no risk in this. there's a parallel discussion on this in spirituality board, where after a debate the posters came to a conclusion that Spirituality and specifically the scientific proof of various spirituality concepts is going to be the next step towards making 'magic' more acceptable and widely known, at least on some level.

Maybe this is the process
Ignorance -> Proof of Physical world and it's operations (Scientific Studies) -> Proof of what can be done in the mental world (Scientific Studies in Spirituality) = Acceptance of some magical principles, or at least laws.

i think we are already moving at full speed in the direction where sooner or later some levels of magic will be scientifically proven (for they already are, just under the label of 'spirituality' or 'bioenergetics' or 'quantum physics', etc)
Title: Re: Who is Practicing the IIH?
Post by: Jordana Divinorum on October 12, 2011, 11:27:59 PM
Quote
Nothing inherently, it is the attachment to these things that hinders us. Fame is ego, Power is relative, Wealth is fleeting.

What is power relative to? What I'm getting at is: Why does it matter if you show people magic is real?  They would still have to start at "square one" and do all the work you did to get the same results.  There isn't a magic potion they can drink that will make them breathe fire.  Either magic is possible within the physics of the reality that we live in, or it's not.  I don't believe it's a loop-hole, a secret advantage, or anything like that.  We probably just haven't tapped the full potential of our minds yet.

Quote
I suppose so. Success is relative as well.

What is success relative to?

Quote
I have seen some pretty crazy martial arts demonstrations by these same magicians I spoke of earlier. In fact many magicians use various martial arts to supplement their practice.

I'd like to know more about this.  I practice Karate and it would be cool to blend martial arts with occult studies.

Anyway, I often wondered why no one ever stepped up and took part in something like the James Randi challenge if they had a real psychic or magic ability.  The things you could do with a million dollars could help countless people.  If magic is part of the natural world, I don't see any reason why it can't be used to help mankind.  The whole idea of keeping silent comes from the idea that you have to let your spell go, and talking about it means you're still attached to it.  Also, you don't want anyone getting in the way or doing a counter-spell before it's done.  I can't see how it relates to performing an instant act of magic.

Some examples or what could be done with the million dollar prize:
Feed 90,000 starving people with rice for one year.
Keep 25 hospitals, each with 100 beds, operational for one year, saving countless of lives.
Buy 145,406 pairs of crutches for people with their legs blown off by landmines.
Buy 15,510 wheelchairs or artificial limbs for landmine victims.
Buy 58,162,500 water purification tablets, capable of cleaning 581,625,000 liters.
This will provide clean water for at least 227,641 people for one year.
Buy 46,530,000 packets of Oral Rehydration Salts to treat diarrhea, a leading cause of death among children.
Buy 7,755 school-in-a-box kits, with educational supplies for up to 80 children each.
That's 620,400 children.
Buy new clothing for 36,351 children who have lost almost everything.
Provide 116,325 infants with formula or baby food for a week.
Pay for the removal of between 2,326 and 7,755 landmines.
Title: Re: Who is Practicing the IIH?
Post by: Akenu on October 13, 2011, 01:52:38 AM
@Jordana Divinorum:
There was time I didn't understand the Law of Silence. My teacher taught me it was obsolete and we should share.
I found following problems with sharing during my experience:
1) People you want to share with have to be ready. Else you will be considered as weirdo even if you show pretty much physical results.
2) Sharing with your friends is not the brightest idea, either. They will start having talks behind your back about you.
Both of above damages not only Ego. It also damages friendships, trust and to some extent also self-esteem

3) Time by time we get some help from above. It can be a ritual, some ability, whatever. By sharing knowledge you've got from Divinity, it can lose its effects for you. This also happened to me few times.

Now regarding James Randi's challenge.
1) I am not famous and I doubt any of members here are (only famous people can undergo Randi's challenge)
2) Randi's Challenge was made to reveal fraud and Randi is really good in it. Many famous wanna-be psychics were defamed by Randi. Still Randi's Challenge wasn't made to find real psychics, just to reveal fraud.
3) Let's say you have a person with a very high level of enlightenment. Such person knows nearly everything and can do whatever wishes with reality. Questions are: Why this person isn't famous and why this person doesn't take Randi's challenge?
well, why that person should do that? You won't get the money to next reincarnation (if you want to undergo it again) and such person will also most probably believe that money is not solution. Just delay of suffering, but not solving the problem of suffering itself. Only real solution for suffering is enlightenment of all people.

Relativity of success:
Success is not relative "to something". It's simply relative based on individual's opinions. Is your definition of success to become famous, to master elements, to become enlightened, to eat 100 sausages in a row?
For me, success is to have a family and take a good care of it.

If you want to improve your Karate a bit, try Qi Gong, I think you will find it very fruitful.

May God bless you.
Title: Re: Who is Practicing the IIH?
Post by: for_Him on October 13, 2011, 04:59:53 AM
i had a similar conversation with my mom yesterday, she told me of a short story, i think its relevant

A student sought out the wisest and most powerful magician in the land,
He went to see him to spend 3 days with him, to learn some of his wisdom,
He arrived and was puzzled that the magician lived in just a little room with a blanket on the floor
There were no posessions in it, nothing at all, but the blanket
He couldn't believe that the magician lived in such a poverty

The student spent 3 days with him thinking that the magicina was a scam,
But after 3 days he was more than convinced that this was indeed an incredibly wise and powerful magician,

On the last day, leaving the room of the magician, he could not resist and asked the magician a question
''I hope this is not rude, but you have so much wisdom and power, why do you live like this? Where are all your things?'' - student asked.
And the magician kindly replied ''Where are all your things?''
The student was puzzled by this wierd question, and replied ''I am here only for 3 days. Why do I need things if I am here only for a while?''
The magician then replied to him ''I am also here, only for a while.''

Maybe with that kind of perspective, fame, money and the rest, really become completely pointless. And spending $1m on 'helping' others is an interesting piont.

In Bahagavad Gida the young Arjuna said to Krishna 'I don't want to fight all these people, in this war. I do not want to kill them!'' and Lord Krishna replied to him ''You must do what you must do. But do not be fooled, you can not kill them. Do you think you can kill the Soul of Mr. X  by killing his body? You can not kill a soul Arjuna. You must learn a lesson from this war, but do not think that you will kill anyone learning this lesson.''

So here we have a dilemma, do we help a person in need, or are we simply fooling ourselves when we help them. i honestly still can't figure it out. i think we should still help, so long as we help them not for ourselves but for themselves. Like in hebrew language the lesson of the letter (gimmel, i think) is about doing charity, but in a way that nobody knows who did it, so that your ego does not benefit from it in any way. Maybe thats why the all powerful magicians don't let anyone know who they are or what they are about. who knows.
Title: Re: Who is Practicing the IIH?
Post by: ArcaTuthus on October 13, 2011, 10:50:36 PM
Power and Success are relative by their nature, imo. And the magicians I have met do show people, the people who have sought them out, or some might even say that the meeting was determined "before the horizon". I can't show people magic is real because I have only witnessed things that are outwardly present. I have plenty of subjective experience, but non of it matters to you or anyone but me, really. I wish I had better answers for you, I really do.
 
Do you know magic is real? Just as a serious question, my experience is that it is real. What is your definition of magic?

I am of the opinion that science can be a dogmatic trap, as much as religion or magic can be. It is a wonderful tool, and science when it is definitive of nature itself is pure, but when a mind who may or may not be able to understand the truth of the nature of reality tries to state that all the rules of its own scope dictate the rules of that which may be out of it's scope just doesn't jive with me:) I am not saying "anything is possible", but I am saying that sciences changes a lot according to understanding.

It seems like you might be stuck on what the value of your way of helping humanity might be, to you. Not that it isn't valid, it is, anytime one puts themselves in the service of their fellow beings they put themselves into service of the self and divinity. Why does "going public" with magic make the most sense? I get your point, I just tend to think that it is expressive of human need to rationalize.

I definitely haven't tapped the full potential of my mind.
 
Title: Re: Who is Practicing the IIH?
Post by: for_Him on October 14, 2011, 11:33:26 AM
i think we are entering a pointless discussion now, so i withdraw, with due respect
Title: Re: Who is Practicing the IIH?
Post by: ArcaTuthus on October 14, 2011, 02:10:00 PM
I actually have to agree. I was debating posting but I thought it might be rude not to. Much respect to all involved, though.
Title: Re: Who is Practicing the IIH?
Post by: Steve on October 14, 2011, 06:58:09 PM
Quote from: Jordana Divinorum
Anyway, I often wondered why no one ever stepped up and took part in something like the James Randi challenge if they had a real psychic or magic ability.  The things you could do with a million dollars could help countless people.  If magic is part of the natural world, I don't see any reason why it can't be used to help mankind.  The whole idea of keeping silent comes from the idea that you have to let your spell go, and talking about it means you're still attached to it.  Also, you don't want anyone getting in the way or doing a counter-spell before it's done.  I can't see how it relates to performing an instant act of magic.
First, there are people who have stepped up to the Randi Challenge. Randi has not allowed any of them to get past preliminary testing because he simply refused to accept their claims or their feats. Do a search for people who have stepped up and why they never passed; it shouldn't take long.

Secondly, money is only a medium. If magic is real, then magic can be used to help those millions of people without needing to do it through money. However, most people are inherently selfish to varying degrees. "If the magic doesn't benefit me, why should I use it for another?" Or to say it another way, "if my magical capabilities are not yet at the point of being capable of benefiting me, then how can I use something that doesn't work to benefit others?"

Magic is not the end-all-be-all God-power that many make it out to be. It can do amazing things... or rather, amazing magicians can use magic to do amazing things. Mediocre magicians can use magic to do mediocre things. Most who are learning magic are still toddlers or youth along the path, myself included. I can't use magic to win Randi's million (or "maybe I can, but I merely haven't tried"), I can't use magic to grow crops to feed millions, I can't use magic to ease the suffering that is a natural part of life. Maybe I will one day be able to, but that day is not today. For those who are at "that day" in their lives, who knows if they are attempting to assist or not? Even if they are, however, Life is still what it is, and what life is is very grand and very complex. I'm not saying "don't bother helping because it's beyond us", but rather "even if you attempt to help, just remember that you're not God so you can't conquer Life itself just because you feel sorry for people who are suffering".

On the topic of sharing magic versus keeping silent, I'm all for the idea of show-casing magic to those who are "worthy" to see it (if you chose to do it, not because someone thinks they're entitled to see it), with the caveat that the show-casing itself doesn't do anything for the people who witness it. As someone else mentioned, though I don't see it now, there is no magic potion to allow a person to start using magic. Showing them that magic is real just lets the person know that the path to magic is real, but the person involved has to make that journey themself... if they're truly interested in it. However, demonstrations of magic are not for everyone. There are many who would purposefully misunderstand, those who will never understand, and those who would pervert.

The whole idea of keeping silent is less because you become attached to your spell or because you're worried that someone else's disbelief will cancel the magic. You keep silent for more broad reasons that have to do with not showing magic to the unworthy, not only because that could damage their own minds and their livelihoods if they become obsessed over it, but because it can cause the magician a great number of headaches if people keep pestering the magician. A similar reason to why you wouldn't go out to a bar and start telling every thug in the place that you won the lottery (whether you have or haven't won the lottery. a lot of people seem to view magic, as well as any great skill, as "omg, you're so lucky to be able to do that! show me how you do it so that I can start doing it right now too!" rather than "wow, that level of skill must have taken a lot of effort over a long time to achieve"). The short term concept of keeping silent is to assist the magician in conquering the ego, as a sort of exercise to keep them from bragging constantly and falling into the trap of thinking they're already so great compared to everyone around them that they can stop learning. Once the ego is conquered, the magician can start looking outward with honest perception and try to see what is truly best for the people around him/her, and at that stage it is no longer a burden to speak when it is meaningful.

~Steve
Title: Re: Who is Practicing the IIH?
Post by: Jordana Divinorum on November 02, 2011, 12:18:51 PM
Thanks guys, I don't mean to spark a debate or anything.  That's an interesting story about the magician that doesn't have very many possessions.  That makes sense to me, and the only thing I would disagree with is that you need some sort of material success in order to have diverse life experiences, such as traveling the world, publishing your art, etc.  I think it's great to meditate and master your mind, but I always ask myself if you're really learning much about life by sitting in a room or temple meditating 24/7 instead of going out, dealing with all sorts of people and situations.  I could be completely wrong, who knows, but lately I've been thinking that the purpose of life is to have new experiences in the physical realm.  I'm not sure if someone that leads a simple life and mostly meditates will have as much wisdom as someone that's had a lot of romantic relationships, done business with good and bad people, gone to rock concerts/played in a band, shared drinks with good friends, explored different countries, etc.
Either way, what I'm interested in are the elemental exercies, and ways to make them stronger.  I'm not sure if simply repeating them every day will make them more effective, or if there are other ways to develop them.  I also with that Bardon would give more details on how to develop scrying.  That's one thing I've never been able to get the hang of properly.
Title: Re: Who is Practicing the IIH?
Post by: mrblack on November 02, 2011, 07:09:12 PM
Either way, what I'm interested in are the elemental exercies, and ways to make them stronger.  I'm not sure if simply repeating them every day will make them more effective, or if there are other ways to develop them.  I also with that Bardon would give more details on how to develop scrying.  That's one thing I've never been able to get the hang of properly.

Keep going at the elemental exercises, it's like doing pushups; in the beginning; you can do 5, eventually you will reach 100.
And yes, there are alot of ways to develop them.

As well, isn't scrying in step IX? I'm asking because it doesn't sound like you passed step 3 yet and you need to somewhat
need to know those steps.....
Title: Re: Who is Practicing the IIH?
Post by: Jordana Divinorum on November 03, 2011, 12:07:58 PM
Thanks for the response.  I'm reading other books besides Initiation into Hermetics.  I've always been interested in scrying, so I got into that before I got into Bardon.  I thought it would be an important skill when it comes to occult studies.  How does one learn other ways of empowering the elemental exercises?  So far, the only advice I've been given is to do them over and over.  Does that give the best results?
Title: Re: Who is Practicing the IIH?
Post by: Aunt Clair on November 05, 2011, 08:11:37 PM
As a doctor, I have to say:Never put alcohol in your eyes,ears or nose!Please.
You're a doctor?
it doesn't say to put the liquid directly in your eyes.  In fact, I don't know anyone who would recommend putting alcohol directly in your eyes without problems.I also wouldn't call looking into a cup of coffee as a magic mirror and seeing events halfway across the world as "clairvoyance wasn't his forte".
In Step VII Bardon does suggest putting it directly into the eye as quoted below. It is a chamomile condenser and not alcohol based although it is a witch hazel astringent similar to rubbing alcohol.Bardon also suggests putting the soaked tampons directly into the ear in IIH. And he says to apply the soaked polstice overnight , store it and use it again. It will not be sterile and it is an unhealthy practice which is not pragmatic. I don't recall that reference to a coffee cup which you please cite it. And clairvoyance is not his forte.If it were he would have written about his projections to the realms like Blavatsky and Crowley. He would have written about his visions of the angels and mahatma like Blavatsky. He would have written about initiation in the higher planes like Stone and Bailey. But he didn't write about seeing ghosts, spirits of deceased relatives, energies in the subtle energy body, the chakras and sephiroth, the realms, the cosmology of the planes, the Mahatma et cetera. And his colour correspondences are intuited but not clairvoyantly viewed and these are incorrect.
regular eye progrmaming can change how your physical eyes work in each situations
Any condenser on the eye in the eye or otherwise taken will not cause clairvoyance to occur, whether it is a condenser or programming. Clairvoyance occurs and improves through ;
*being born with a vibration which affords clairvoyance having worked towards this in past lives
*development of the indigo chakra and surrounding energy centres of the third eye .Robert Bruce calls these centres the Brow Centre.
*flow of shen from the heart to the third eye and brow centre
*kundalini events
*attunements and initiations which raise the vibration of the energy body
*practice especially in dim light in altered states of consciousness such as meditative trance
*intuitive experimenting
*alchemical transmutations causing ascended vibration
Aunt Clair: Thnaks for your reply.  I've never heard of anyone getting physical results from the elemental exercises in this book, so I was wondering if it was possible.
There are physical results which Bardon indicates are for experts only. But other physical results in IIH have been obtained by magicians and are therefore possible. For example;
Step I ~ Magic Physical Training
1. The Material or Carnal Body;brushing, washing body stimulate clairsentience
2. Mystery of Breathing~inhaling a core image
3. Conscious Reception of Food
4. The Magic of Water
Step II ~ Magic Physical Training
1. Conscious Pore Breathing
2. Conscious Position of the Body
3. Body Control in everyday life, at will
Step III ~ Magic Physical Training
1. Retaining of Step I, which has to become a habit
2. Accumulation of Vital Power
a. By breathing through the lungs & pores in the whole body
b. In different parts of the body
3. Impregnation of Space for reasons of health, success, &c.
4. Bio-magnetism
Step IV ~ Magic Physical Training
1. Rituals & their practical applicability
a. Gesticulations
b. Bearings (Asanas)
c. Postures of the Fingers (Mudras)
Step V ~ Magic Physical Training
1. Preparation for Passive Communication with the invisible ones
a. Release of the own hand
b. Preparation of the Fingers with help of the pendulum, &c
2. Passive Communication:
a. With the own Guardian Genius
b. With Deceased People & other Beings
All of these listed in Steps I thru V are attainable
Step VI ~ Magic Physical Training
1. Deliberate Creation of Beings:
a. Elementals
b. Larvae
c. Phantoms
Step VII ~ Magic Physical Training
1. Creation of Elementaries by different methods
2. Magic Animation of Pictures
What is listed in Step VI and VII is attainable but more difficult than previous steps. Each step becomes somewhat harder.
Step VIII ~ Magic Physical Training
1. Magic Influence through the Elements
2. Fluid Condensers:
a. Simple Condensers
b. Compound Condensers
c. Fluid Condensers for Magic Mirrors
d. Preparation of a Magic Mirror with Fluid Condensers
Step IX ~ Magic Physical Training
1. Treatment of the Sick with the Electromagnetic Fluid
2. Magical Loading of Talismans, Amulets & Gems
3. Wish Realization through Electromagnetic Balls in Akasa (“Volting”)
Step X ~ Magic Physical Training
1. Several Methods for acquiring Magic Faculties
Some of what is listed in Steps VIII through X  is not pragmatic but it is possible.
Nothing listed here is impossible to attain. It is the rare exception that is improbable or perhaps impossible. Those type of skills are not listed here such as igniting a cotton ball with fire energy.

Quoted from IIH Step VII
...to develop the sense of the astral body fast and without difficulty...
Numerous books have been published about this theme, but the ones that have come into my hands do not offer the slightest practical profit to any magician...1)imagine that you are inhaling the universal light ...Now concentrate the quality of clairvoyance into this light in the body,i.e., imagine that the light is penetrating everything, seeing everything and looking into everything. Neither space nor time is any hindrance to this light. Your conviction of this quality of the light is to be firm as a rock, and not the faintest doubt is allowed to arise. If you are a religious man, it should be easy for you to believe that this universal light is representing a part of God, who owns all the qualities described here. As soon as you have sucked in the light into your body in this manner, together with the quoted qualities, and if you can feel its tension and penetrating power inside you, accumulate the light with the help of your imagination from the feet and hands towards the head, compressing the light to such a degree that it includes both your eyeballs...As soon as you have performed the accumulation of light in your eyeballs, imagine that your eyes have got all the abilities concentrated in the light.

Rather than imagining one is inhaling light from the nose to the eye, it is better to raise energy up the perineum along the Hara line to the heart to carry Shen fire energy up to the third eye centres. Clairvoyance requires light . The magician must draw fire energy like a snake of golden honey through the watery abyss of the magician's head. This light is best afforded by Golden Shen the treasure of the middle tan tien, it is a noble fire cultivated in the heart of the magician.
2)the preparation of a magical ophthalmic fire-lotion.
The following ingredients are necessary:
1. A large bottle of distilled water
2. Chamomile flowers (dried or fresh)
3. Eyebright (dried or fresh)
4. 7-9 osier or hazel switches which you can find in fields. Strip the leaves, then dry the sticks in sunlight.
5. Filter paper and a small funnel.
Now you can prepare the eye lotion. Pour a half-pint of distilled water into a clean container,boil it, then add two teaspoons of chamomile flowers and one teaspoon of eyebright. Let them boil for only a few seconds, then take it off the fire and cover the pot with a lid. After 10 minutes, filter it into another clean container. When the tea has cooled down take a bunch of the osier or hazel nut twigs, set one end aflame, and let them burn. Now dip the blazing ends into the tea. By doing so the material fire element has been transferred into the tea, which one can already regard as a fluid condenser. I will write about this detail in a further chapter. Now filter this fluid condenser into another clean container. The filtering is important to remove any chips or ashes produced by dipping the burning twigs into the liquid. Pour the tea into a bowl and put is in front of you.Now inhale the fire element through the lungs or pores, or both at the same time, into your body and fill it entirely with this element. At this projection, there is no great attention to be given to the intensity of the warmth, as you will feel it in any case, but do not forget that the fire element has to bear your desire that you transferred to it through your imagination. After transferring to the fire element your desire to have your material eyes strengthened and your astral eye developed, project the fire element in the same way as you performed the experiment of the light accumulation, whether by way of the solar plexus or one of your hands or your breathing, into the liquid. If you get the feeling that the projection is not sufficient,repeat the experiment several times, but no more than 7-9 times. Thereby the prepared condenser will turn into a strong essence that will not only have a very fine effect on the eyesight, but also strengthens, enlivens and develops the astral senses. Now pour the fluid condenser into a clean bottle and keep it in a cool spot. This ophthalmic fire lotion may be used for strengthening the eyesight or for magical purposes. In the case of weak eyesight,one can simply drop this liquid condenser into the eyes without any hesitation because the two-herb combination is anti-inflammatory and an eye tonic, but for magical practice, i.e.,the development of the astral senses, it will suffice to moisten a piece of cotton wool wrapped in gauze or a strip of clean linen and to use it as a poultice during the experiment of animating the eyes with light. Later on, as soon as the astral eyes are better developed, the fluid condenser poultices can be omitted and it will be sufficient to perform the accumulation of light in the eyeballs. After frequent repetition, when the physical eyes are already developed by these light-exercises, one
has only to direct the attention to the astral eye with the desire for being able to see with it. Apart from the duration of the experiment, one might also use these poultices before going to bed to achieve an automatic effect during the night, but there is a slight disadvantage: the eyes and the eyelids would become supersensitive as a result of the intrusion of the fire element from the frequent use of the poultice. It is therefore more serviceable to use the poultices for the duration of the exercises only. The poultice is to be fastened with a scarf during the exercise to prevent it from falling off. This magic operation is to be performed without the presence of other persons. One ought to try to keep the poultice as well as the essence for a certain time, so it need not be renewed from one experiment to the other and does not fall into the hands of incompetent people, not even members of the family. If the scholar has worked through all the foregoing exercises, he will develop his eye for clairvoyance in an absolutely harmless way in a few months’ time, and will be well talented even after a few weeks, following the method described here, and he will be able to fulfill all the other tasks and operations still ahead of him in the knowledge of Magic. It is quite impossible to quote all the successes obtained with the different methods of clairvoyance mentioned here, because they are so manifold and so reasonably obvious that it must be left to the magician himself how far-reaching he will be able to train his astral eyes. At all events,he may be warned not to boast of the abilities he has won, or even worse, to misuse them to harm his fellow men. He ought to utilize the solely for the benefit of Mankind. Time and space won’t be a handicap to him and nothing will remain concealed before him as far as his
clairvoyant eyes are concerned.

Bardon advocates putting the liquid directly into the eyes and also in a polstice.If the polstice is applied over the eyes it will leak into the eyes, also.

This is not a sterile solution. It is not a healthy practice and it will not cause the initiation or improvement of clairvoyance in the magician.

Clairvoyance is fostered by ;
*daily meditative trance

*the journaling of dreamstate lessons, visions , OBE journeys, pathworking & the reflection and analysis of one's pathworking through the revision of one's journal and discussion with able peers

*drawing flow of energy through the brow centres daily

Clairvoyance is facilitated by;
*conducive asana i.e Throne , Thoth or supine

*working in dim light in the sacred chamber

*closing the physical eyes and looking through the third eye and the greater brow centre of conjoined energy centres around the third eye.

* drawing golden Shen, the subtle noble fire, from the heart of the magician to the brow
or cultivating the golden bowl of the magician in the crown to draw it from heart and crown concurrently.

Clairvoyance is improved by;
*Initiation by Mahatma beginning in the supernal etheric of the Great Pyramid of Luxor in the Higher Planes of Shamballah. The teaching planes of the rishis was first discussed by the Buddha 2500 years ago.

*attunements by masters and Mahatma and archangels

*Kundalini Events

Title: Re: Who is Practicing the IIH?
Post by: trismegistos on November 05, 2011, 10:27:47 PM
Bardon didn't write a lot of things, because he wasn't an author and he states this, he wrote for the purpose of a mission to give the world books of practical use.

If you read Memories of Franz Bardon, the account of his actual life, on many occasions he looked into a coffee cup and would accurately tell those around him things going on half way around the world.  There's so much I want to say regarding all this, but I'll just agree to disagree with you about Bardon from what I know about him from more than just some books.
Title: Re: Who is Practicing the IIH?
Post by: Trillis on November 05, 2011, 10:28:24 PM
As a doctor, I have to say:Never put alcohol in your eyes,ears or nose!Please.
You're a doctor?
it doesn't say to put the liquid directly in your eyes.  In fact, I don't know anyone who would recommend putting alcohol directly in your eyes without problems.I also wouldn't call looking into a cup of coffee as a magic mirror and seeing events halfway across the world as "clairvoyance wasn't his forte".
In Step VII Bardon does suggest putting it directly into the eye as quoted below. It is a chamomile condenser and not alcohol based although it is a witch hazel astringent similar to rubbing alcohol.Bardon also suggests putting the soaked tampons directly into the ear in IIH. And he says to apply the soaked polstice overnight , store it and use it again. It will not be sterile and it is an unhealthy practice which is not pragmatic. I don't recall that reference to a coffee cup which you please cite it. And clairvoyance is not his forte.If it were he would have written about his projections to the realms like Blavatsky and Crowley. He would have written about his visions of the angels and mahatma like Blavatsky. He would have written about initiation in the higher planes like Stone and Bailey. But he didn't write about seeing ghosts, spirits of deceased relatives, energies in the subtle energy body, the chakras and sephiroth, the realms, the cosmology of the planes, the Mahatma et cetera. And his colour correspondences are intuited but not clairvoyantly viewed and these are incorrect.
regular eye progrmaming can change how your physical eyes work in each situations
Any condenser on the eye in the eye or otherwise taken will not cause clairvoyance to occur, whether it is a condenser or programming. Clairvoyance occurs and improves through ;
*being born with a vibration which affords clairvoyance having worked towards this in past lives
*development of the indigo chakra and surrounding energy centres of the third eye .Robert Bruce calls these centres the Brow Centre.
*flow of shen from the heart to the third eye and brow centre
*kundalini events
*attunements and initiations which raise the vibration of the energy body
*practice especially in dim light in altered states of consciousness such as meditative trance
*intuitive experimenting
*alchemical transmutations causing ascended vibration
Aunt Clair: Thnaks for your reply.  I've never heard of anyone getting physical results from the elemental exercises in this book, so I was wondering if it was possible.  Would it be better to repeat them over and over until you get better, or are there other ways of making the elemental energy more potent?
There are physical results which Bardon indicates are for experts only. But other physical results in IIH have been obtained by magicians and are therefore possible. For example;
Step I ~ Magic Physical Training
1. The Material or Carnal Body;brushing, washing body stimulate clairsentience
2. Mystery of Breathing~inhaling a core image
3. Conscious Reception of Food
4. The Magic of Water
Step II ~ Magic Physical Training
1. Conscious Pore Breathing
2. Conscious Position of the Body
3. Body Control in everyday life, at will
Step III ~ Magic Physical Training
1. Retaining of Step I, which has to become a habit
2. Accumulation of Vital Power
a. By breathing through the lungs & pores in the whole body
b. In different parts of the body
3. Impregnation of Space for reasons of health, success, &c.
4. Bio-magnetism
Step IV ~ Magic Physical Training
1. Rituals & their practical applicability
a. Gesticulations
b. Bearings (Asanas)
c. Postures of the Fingers (Mudras)
Step V ~ Magic Physical Training
1. Preparation for Passive Communication with the invisible ones
a. Release of the own hand
b. Preparation of the Fingers with help of the pendulum, &c
2. Passive Communication:
a. With the own Guardian Genius
b. With Deceased People & other Beings
All these listed in Steps I thru V is attainable
Step VI ~ Magic Physical Training
1. Deliberate Creation of Beings:
a. Elementals
b. Larvae
c. Phantoms
Step VII ~ Magic Physical Training
1. Creation of Elementaries by different methods
2. Magic Animation of Pictures
What is listed in Step VI and VII is attainable but more difficult than previous steps. Each step becomes somewhat harder.
Step VIII ~ Magic Physical Training
1. Magic Influence through the Elements
2. Fluid Condensers:
a. Simple Condensers
b. Compound Condensers
c. Fluid Condensers for Magic Mirrors
d. Preparation of a Magic Mirror with Fluid Condensers
Step IX ~ Magic Physical Training
1. Treatment of the Sick with the Electromagnetic Fluid
2. Magical Loading of Talismans, Amulets & Gems
3. Wish Realization through Electromagnetic Balls in Akasa (“Volting”)
Step X ~ Magic Physical Training
1. Several Methods for acquiring Magic Faculties
Some of what is listed in Steps VIII through X  is not pragmatic but it is possible.
Nothing listed here is impossible to attain. It is the rare exception that is not listed here such as igniting a cotton ball with fire energy.

Quoted from IIH Step VII
...to develop the sense of the astral body fast and without difficulty...
Numerous books have been published about this theme, but the ones that have come into my hands do not offer the slightest practical profit to any magician...
1)imagine that you are inhaling the universal light ...Now concentrate the quality of clairvoyance into this light in the body,i.e., imagine that the light is penetrating everything, seeing everything and looking into everything. Neither space nor time is any hindrance to this light. Your conviction of this quality of the light is to be firm as a rock, and not the faintest doubt is allowed to arise. If you are a religious man, it should be easy for you to believe that this universal light is representing a part of God, who owns all the qualities described here. As soon as you have sucked in the light into your body in this manner, together with the quoted qualities, and if you can feel its tension and penetrating power inside you, accumulate the light with the help of your imagination from the feet and hands towards the head, compressing the light to such a degree that it includes both your eyeballs...As soon as you have performed the accumulation of light in your eyeballs, imagine that your eyes have got all the abilities concentrated in the light.[/i]
Rather imagining one is inhaling light from the nose to the eye, it is better to raise energy up the perineum along the hara line to the heart to carry Shen fire energy up to the third eye centres.
2)the preparation of a magical ophthalmic fire-lotion.
The following ingredients are necessary:
1. A large bottle of distilled water
2. Chamomile flowers (dried or fresh)
3. Eyebright (dried or fresh)
4. 7-9 osier or hazel switches which you can find in fields. Strip the leaves, then dry the sticks in sunlight.
5. Filter paper and a small funnel.
Now you can prepare the eye lotion. Pour a half-pint of distilled water into a clean container,boil it, then add two teaspoons of chamomile flowers and one teaspoon of eyebright. Let them boil for only a few seconds, then take it off the fire and cover the pot with a lid. After 10 minutes, filter it into another clean container. When the tea has cooled down take a bunch of the osier or hazel nut twigs, set one end aflame, and let them burn. Now dip the blazing ends into the tea. By doing so the material fire element has been transferred into the tea, which one can already regard as a fluid condenser. I will write about this detail in a further chapter. Now filter this fluid condenser into another clean container. The filtering is important to remove any chips or ashes produced by dipping the burning twigs into the liquid. Pour the tea into a
bowl and put is in front of you.Now inhale the fire element through the lungs or pores, or both at the same time, into your body and fill it entirely with this element. At this projection, there is no great attention to be given to the intensity of the warmth, as you will feel it in any case, but do not forget that the fire element has to bear your desire that you transferred to it through your imagination. After transferring to the fire element your desire to have your material eyes strengthened and your astral eye developed, project the fire element in the same way as you performed the experiment of the light accumulation, whether by way of the solar plexus or one of your hands
or your breathing, into the liquid. If you get the feeling that the projection is not sufficient,repeat the experiment several times, but no more than 7-9 times. Thereby the prepared condenser will turn into a strong essence that will not only have a very fine effect on the eyesight, but also strengthens, enlivens and develops the astral senses. Now pour the fluid condenser into a clean bottle and keep it in a cool spot. This ophthalmic fire lotion may be used for strengthening the eyesight or for magical purposes. In the case of weak eyesight,one can simply drop this liquid condenser into the eyes without any hesitation because the two-herb combination is anti-inflammatory and an eye tonic, but for magical practice, i.e.,the development of the astral senses, it will suffice to moisten a piece of cotton wool wrapped in gauze or a strip of clean linen and to use it as a poultice during the experiment of
animating the eyes with light.Later on, as soon as the astral eyes are better developed, the fluid condenser poultices can be omitted and it will be sufficient to perform the accumulation of light in the eyeballs. After frequent repetition, when the physical eyes are already developed by these light-exercises, one
has only to direct the attention to the astral eye with the desire for being able to see with it. Apart from the duration of the experiment, one might also use these poultices before going to bed to achieve an automatic effect during the night, but there is a slight disadvantage: the eyes and the eyelids would become supersensitive as a result of the intrusion of the fire element from the frequent use of the poultice. It is therefore more serviceable to use the poultices for the duration of the exercises only. The poultice is to be fastened with a scarf during the exercise to prevent it from falling off. This magic operation is to be performed without the presence of other persons. One ought to try to keep the poultice as well as the essence for a certain time, so it need not be renewed from one experiment to the other and does not fall into the hands of incompetent people, not even members of the family.
If the scholar has worked through all the foregoing exercises, he will develop his eye for clairvoyance in an absolutely harmless way in a few months’ time, and will be well talented even after a few weeks, following the method described here, and he will be able to fulfill all the other tasks and operations still ahead of him in the knowledge of Magic. It is quite impossible to quote all the successes obtained with the different methods of clairvoyance
mentioned here, because they are so manifold and so reasonably obvious that it must be left to the magician himself how far-reaching he will be able to train his astral eyes. At all events,he may be warned not to boast of the abilities he has won, or even worse, to misuse them to harm his fellow men. He ought to utilize the solely for the benefit of Mankind. Time and space won’t be a handicap to him and nothing will remain concealed before him as far as his
clairvoyant eyes are concerned.

Bardon advocates putting the liquid directly into the eyes and in a polstice.

(http://i.imgur.com/KHZS8.png)
Title: Re: Who is Practicing the IIH?
Post by: Aunt Clair on November 07, 2011, 05:58:05 AM
Aunt Clair:... Would it be better to repeat them over and over until you get better, or are there other ways of making the elemental energy more potent?

As you will.Practice makes perfect so coming back to a step, after further development or a kundalini event or a similar raising of one's vibration, should afford a greater chance to succeed. And the elemental energy certainly becomes easier to draw and of a higher vibration over time, with development and practice. For example the basal fire is pale yellow but a more noble fire energy is golden solar energy . Similarly a basal water is blue , indigo is higher and silver is a higher and noble lunar energy.

Also the magician becomes more capable of directing flow of energy with newly manifested energy centres which become increasingly more sophisticated in structure and more powerful, too.

So by continuing to work in balance to develop the body, mind, soul and spirit, the magician will become more capable of intuiting, feeling, seeing, hearing, calling , flying and directing the flow of specific elemental energies.

Energy awareness techniques such as Bardon's brushing and Bruce's NEW are not essential prerequisites to the raising of energy. But they are hugely helpful to the magician in developing and an awareness of energy and clairsentience.

In Energy Work by Bruce , he teaches practical methods to raise and direct energy too especially in his Full Body Circuit.

My own basal methods to working with energy are here;
http://forums.vsociety.net/index.php/topic,17481.0.html

I am learning more about Qi Gong and Kundalini Yoga. I highly recommend these studies to develop the control of Hermetic energies.

Title: Re: Who is Practicing the IIH?
Post by: Melchizedek on November 14, 2011, 07:10:17 PM
Can't get past step 5, been lying dormant, redoing exercises from step 1 up to step 5. Can really feel the power, it's all true you really can heal people, control people, infleunce people.

(http://www.melchizedeksmp3club.com/webpage%20pictures/iihmasterytalisman.jpg)
Title: Re: Who is Practicing the IIH?
Post by: for_Him on November 16, 2011, 05:16:46 AM
melchizedek, have you by chance seen the IIH Commentary by Veos? it goes into very nice depth, veos passed all 8 steps and has trained others how to do it, commentary is free and on this website, before it i had no success with iih (and i was doing it for about half a year each day, slowly losing faith in it), after i studied the commentary it changed
Title: Re: Who is Practicing the IIH?
Post by: Melchizedek on November 22, 2011, 10:01:32 PM
melchizedek, have you by chance seen the IIH Commentary by Veos? it goes into very nice depth, veos passed all 8 steps and has trained others how to do it, commentary is free and on this website, before it i had no success with iih (and i was doing it for about half a year each day, slowly losing faith in it), after i studied the commentary it changed

Thanks for the input, you have a good attitude towards magic. I used the magic mirror that I made, sent akasha to it and then recieved the answer to forget about steps 1-4 and focus on steps 5-10. So I'm doing it and it's the pathway.
Title: Re: Who is Practicing the IIH?
Post by: Melchizedek on November 22, 2011, 10:09:43 PM
Everytime I post on this forum, I get immediately punished by the spirits that control the secrets of magic. Gee, I wonder why that is :rolleyes:
Title: Re: Who is Practicing the IIH?
Post by: Akenu on November 23, 2011, 01:54:01 AM
@Melchizedek: So, when you say you cannot get past step 5, it simply means that you didn't get through 1 - 4, but you omitted them because you've got response that allowed you to omit it and that answer came from Magickal mirror.

Now tell me, what do your spirits think about you talking about reading introduction to IIH again and again and again and avoiding steps 1 up to 4 in it? Even if it is true, wouldn't they be angry because your path is not path of everyone and such information can really screw learning process of other people? Think about it.
Title: Re: Who is Practicing the IIH?
Post by: Melchizedek on November 23, 2011, 11:53:04 AM
@Melchizedek: So, when you say you cannot get past step 5, it simply means that you didn't get through 1 - 4, but you omitted them because you've got response that allowed you to omit it and that answer came from Magickal mirror.

Now tell me, what do your spirits think about you talking about reading introduction to IIH again and again and again and avoiding steps 1 up to 4 in it? Even if it is true, wouldn't they be angry because your path is not path of everyone and such information can really screw learning process of other people? Think about it.

I couldn't get past step 5, because I didn't realzie that I was ready for. I've already gone through all of step 5 and will have completed it by the weekend to the point where I can move on to step 6


Here's a breakdown of what I can do from Step 5:

I can move my consciousness 100% into the center of any object for 5 minutes, so that I and the object are one

I can reduce my consciousness to the size of an atom, to the center of the object,so that I am actually looking out from the center of it and can also impregnate said object to influence it with my will/desire to effect it and those around it for 5 minutes or more

I can sit in the center of myself and experience my entire being self, as if I am actually lviing in the center of myself and can also change my beliefs from this vantage point. I can also do other people/animals with this same procedure for 5 minutes or more

I can compress all the elements within myself and fill a room or a space 1,000 miles away with these elements and infleunce the room as far as temperature, etc. for 5 minutes of more

I can draw the element directly from the Universe and do the same, make geometric shapes from each element for 5 minutes or more

I can draw my spirtual hand form my physical and send it into the fourth dimension, to the point where I can not move my physical hand, due to my spirit being in the fourth dimension for 5 minutes or more

I can compress the fire element into a glowing sphere to the point where I could light something on fire from in front of me to 1,000's of miles away fro 5 minutes or more.

The key to this is mediatating on the introduction, not the dull, life-less mechanics of the mental exercises, which without true understanding lead you to mediocrity as a magician

I will post an update as I head into Step 6 and post my experiences and observations on it in the coming weeks
Title: Re: Who is Practicing the IIH?
Post by: Melchizedek on November 23, 2011, 07:43:53 PM
Step 6. Feel the mental body like a glove, inside the astral body which is a bigger glove and then feel both inside the material body.

See through your physical eyes with your spiritual eyes, through your phsyical ears with your spirtual earss then feel through your material body with your spirit.

When healing people, you need to heal on the astral plane, the mental plane and then the material body with the corresponding energy.

This is why if you cast magic spells they sometimes don't work. It's because you arn't casting from your astral and mental body to the astral and mental body of the other person.

If you can perfect the astral and mental body of yourself, your guarenteed 100% success

When you cast magic spells or try to do magic and see results here on the physical plane, you need to have this astral part of yourself under control, then send energy from your astral mind to the astral mind of the person you want to effect.

Do the same on the mental and then the same with the physical.

This can only be done by mastering the Akasha. You master the Akasha through pore breathing and as you do you create rituals for sending the 4 elements to the astral plane and then the mental plane.

I can see this and experience this. I can send elements all 4 into the astral plane and mental plane, without having any stress or tension.

Like Bardon says in the book, before I even read it, "It's like Child's Play". This is exactly what it was like.

Step 6 is about mastering the Akasha principle and as I've posted before, mastering the 4 elements by controlling them without
nervousness or fear on the astral and mental plane.




Step 6
I can see with my spirtual eyes, through my physical eyes for 5 minutes
Same with my spirtual ears as well as my spirit in feeling objects my surroundings around me, all at once for 5 minutes

I can access the astral and mental plane for 5 minutes, through breathing in the Akasha and send the fire, air, watre and earth element into and out of them with no stress, tension nervous breakdown

I can create an elemental out of the ocean of light and give it a task to do and be in total control of it.

On to Step 7
Title: Re: Who is Practicing the IIH?
Post by: trismegistos on November 24, 2011, 01:12:01 AM
Step 6 in a single day huh?
Title: Re: Who is Practicing the IIH?
Post by: Melchizedek on November 24, 2011, 05:27:55 AM
Step 6 in a single day huh?

Step 6 in a half an hour. It's because I have an understanding power that connects the enitre philosophy. You see, it's a secret, you don't see it because your solely focused on just doing the exercises without really understanding why your doing them.

You see, this system of magic has been shrouded in mystery, maybe it should be. I think the reason for this, is that everyone who reads this book or tries to do the exercsies, overlooks the fact of reading the introduction, they go straight to the exercises.

I've scoured the internet for information on this. There isn't any. No one really understands what this system is about.

It's all about how you where created from 4 elements. You and everything around you are sustained by them. Better yet you truly can be the master of your own Uinverse

There's really no way you can absue it, you won't get anywhere.

Now, I can deepen the power of these exrecises from step 6 , but I'm told not to, but to go through the book to the end.

I went to step 7:

I still have imbalance from too much emotion, air element. This is at the beginning

I can draw in the white light from the fire element and draw it to the eyes from clairvoyance, clairaudience and clairsentience.

I went through creating an elemental etc. and created one and put it in a picture for money attraction

(http://www.melchizedeksmp3club.com/webpage%20pictures/money%20attracting%20amulet.jpg)


Title: Re: Who is Practicing the IIH?
Post by: lailoken on November 24, 2011, 06:11:54 AM
Step 6 in a half an hour?

What the f**k??? (coughs, splutters, then falls out the chair)
Title: Re: Who is Practicing the IIH?
Post by: Melchizedek on November 24, 2011, 06:13:13 AM
When you look at the beginning of the book and start doing the thought control exercises, why are you doing them or the soul mirror exercises.

It's because you want to see where you have an imbalance in the elements.

The thought control exrecises are the first exercises, because you are attempting to rise above what you percieve to see all around you with your physical eyes.

Why do you do the visualziation exercises in Step 2. It's because you are beginning to try and master the fire element. Why do you have to try and visualize something without hearing or feeling it in Step 2. It's because you are attempting to isolate your connection to the fire element and to bring it into perfect balance.

It doesn't say this is why you aredoing that exercises in Step 2, but if you know why you are doing this exercise, it makes sense and you make progress and don't get frustrated and quit.

Seeing/visualzing is the Fire Eelement
Hearing is the Air Element
Feeling is the Water Element
Total Consciousness of all 5 senses is the Earth element

All the exercises in IIH are made to attack this problem of balancing the elements witihin yourself, so you can increase your ability to have more magic powers, for lack of a better term within yourself
Title: Re: Who is Practicing the IIH?
Post by: Melchizedek on November 24, 2011, 06:15:07 AM
Step 6 in a half an hour?

What the f**k??? (coughs, splutters, then falls out the chair)

Yeah, but you make your observation from a viewpoint of not understanding. Your looking at just doing the exercises without understanding why your doing them, so to you it seems an impossible task
Title: Re: Who is Practicing the IIH?
Post by: Akenu on November 24, 2011, 06:16:56 AM
Everyone calm down, now, together with you Melchizedek, stop talking about IIH or I will have to show you your delusions.
Title: Re: Who is Practicing the IIH?
Post by: Melchizedek on November 24, 2011, 06:27:19 AM
Everyone calm down, now, together with you Melchizedek, stop talking about IIH or I will have to show you your delusions.

I'll stop talking about it, what I'm writing isn't welcome here. It's amazing how clueless you all are about magic
Title: Re: Who is Practicing the IIH?
Post by: Akenu on November 24, 2011, 06:36:55 AM
Everyone calm down, now, together with you Melchizedek, stop talking about IIH or I will have to show you your delusions.

I'll stop talking about it, what I'm writing isn't welcome here. It's amazing how clueless you all are about magic

You are screwing learning process of any serious student of IIH that might search information on the internet and find this thread.
Title: Re: Who is Practicing the IIH?
Post by: Aunt Clair on November 24, 2011, 07:20:25 AM
Everyone calm down, now, together with you Melchizedek, stop talking about IIH or I will have to show you your delusions.

I'll stop talking about it, what I'm writing isn't welcome here. It's amazing how clueless you all are about magic

I am sorry for the derision and derogatory diatribe that occurs at VS without moderation.

I am interested in your approach. Please correct me if I have this wrong. I believe that you have read through the book and have accomplished all of steps 1-4 and understand the philosophy and intent of the author Bardon and have attained those skills. Then upon reading Step 5 you discovered you already had those skills too. So you moved through it rapidly. If I am correct in my assessment of what you implied then I am in accord. This has happened to a number of magicians over the years I have been working with IIH. Of course, some of us come to the work with some of these abilities already in place and it is only natural then that we would pass through some steps quickly because it is no more than a read of the text and a self assessment that task has already been done and this skill is already attained and so forth.

I know many magicians who have completed this Ten Step Path. Most come to the IIH already accomplished somewhat some as mystics, some as psions, some as projectors, some as mediums. Some as naturals born with a great deal of ability. It is possible. Bardon says it is possible and those who deride and bully generally do not have the discipline to get past step 2 and therefore believe no one else could. The armchair magicians pretend that no one can because they have not been able to attain yet . They will not progress until they begin to open their eyes and fly.

If you have not read Rawn Clark's commentary, I highly recommend that to you and to for_Him et al. I also suggest to you that there are serious Hermetic magicians online in a number of other sites which will treat you with respect these include but are not limited to;
Occult Corpus @ Ceremonial Magick boards
Franz Bardon Forum
River of Enlightenment
Astral Dynamics
and various Yahoo groups
Hermetic Research too

Please do not leave VS. I do value your input.
Title: Re: Who is Practicing the IIH?
Post by: Melchizedek on November 24, 2011, 02:30:56 PM
Everyone calm down, now, together with you Melchizedek, stop talking about IIH or I will have to show you your delusions.

I'll stop talking about it, what I'm writing isn't welcome here. It's amazing how clueless you all are about magic

I am sorry for the derision. I am interested in your approach. Please correct me if I have this wrong. I believe that you have read through the book and have accomplished all of steps 1-4 and understand the philosophy and intent of the author Bardon and have attained those skills. Then upon reading Step 5 you discovered you already had those skills too. So you moved through it rapidly. If I am correct in my assessment of what you implied then I am in accord. This has happened to a number of magicians over the years I have been working with IIH. Of course, some of us come to the work with some of these abilities already in place and it is only natural then that we would pass through some steps quickly because it is no more than a read of the text and a self assessment that task has already been done and this skill is already attained and so forth.

I know many magicians who have completed this Ten Step Path. Most come to the IIH already accomplished somewhat some as mystics, some as psions, some as projectors, some as mediums. Some as naturals born with a great deal of ability. It is possible. Bardon says it is possible and those who deride and bully generally do not have the discipline to get past step 2 and therefore believe no one else could.

If you have not read Rawn Clark's commentary, I highly recommend to you and to for_Him et al. I also suggest to you that there are serious Hermetic magicians online in a number of other sites which will treat you with respect these include but are not limited to;
Occult Corpus @ Ceremonial Magick boards
Franz Bardon Forum
River of Enlightenment
Astral Dynamics
and various Yahoo groups
Hermetic Research too

Please do not leave VS. I do value your input.

Hi,
     All you need to see for yourself is this

Seeing/visualzing is the Fire Eelement
Hearing is the Air Element
Feeling is the Water Element
Total Consciousness of all 5 senses is the Earth element


Title: Re: Who is Practicing the IIH?
Post by: trismegistos on November 24, 2011, 03:58:56 PM
I am not specifically working through IIH, though I understand what the exercises, some of them the same as IIH, are for.  Divine Providence has blessed me with guidance which on this day of Thanksgiving (and every other day) I am grateful beyond words for.

I would be interested to see you condense fire to such an extent as to light the lamp on my altar from however many miles away you are, you said thousands so I imagine you could do it.  Hopefully your answer is not that the spirits will not allow you, because they seem to be fine with you telling hundreds of veritas members that you can do such a great feat, not exactly in line with keeping Silence, seemed more like bragging to me.
Title: Re: Who is Practicing the IIH?
Post by: MariusAnil on November 25, 2011, 11:21:12 PM
I'm on step numero uno and I plan integrating it with kobok's focal meditation. after that while progressing in IIH I plan to work on pin pointing certain brain wave states(in particular gamma and alpha/theta) while also integrating several eastern energy development systems. My goals in mind are extreme spatial perception and augmented physical speed and strength. My goals after those will depend entirely on my experiences in achieving the first set of goals.

Any criticism on this approach will actually be appreciated as I am not as experienced as most on this forum.   
Title: Re: Who is Practicing the IIH?
Post by: Hellblazer on November 26, 2011, 09:15:06 AM
My 2 cents, just be smart about it and safe. Don't do anything thing that could lead to permanent damage to yourself. I wish you luck and hope you can achieve what you seek. It may take time, along with trial and error to figure it out with persistent effort. I did and all I got to do if put it into practice.
Title: Re: Who is Practicing the IIH?
Post by: ThePhoenix13 on November 26, 2011, 10:23:47 AM

Please do not leave VS. I do value your input.

I second this. Please continue to post your thoughts. Although there are those who wish to argue, there are us who wish to listen.
Title: Re: Who is Practicing the IIH?
Post by: Akenu on November 26, 2011, 04:27:24 PM

Please do not leave VS. I do value your input.

I second this. Please continue to post your thoughts. Although there are those who wish to argue, there are us who wish to listen.

Your post is what I was scared of, don't take this as an example, learn properly.
Title: Re: Who is Practicing the IIH?
Post by: Willi on November 26, 2011, 04:50:20 PM
I'm on step numero uno and I plan integrating it with kobok's focal meditation. after that while progressing in IIH I plan to work on pin pointing certain brain wave states(in particular gamma and alpha/theta) while also integrating several eastern energy development systems. My goals in mind are extreme spatial perception and augmented physical speed and strength. My goals after those will depend entirely on my experiences in achieving the first set of goals.

Any criticism on this approach will actually be appreciated as I am not as experienced as most on this forum.   

Protip: Find a traditional martial arts teacher and start practicing if you can. I was slow and weak, now I'm not. Worked for me. :)
Title: Re: Who is Practicing the IIH?
Post by: MariusAnil on November 26, 2011, 05:02:35 PM
Thanks BubbaFett. I'll take the same approach i do towards physical training. if it hurts in the tendons and joints back off for a bit. It takes longer for those areas to heal and get stronger. If it hurts I back off and go back to foundation training. Its better to start slow and gain a solid momentum then to start fast and have a wobbly momentum. Though I don't know all dangers of metaphysical practice could someone enlighten me?

@Willi I am brown belt in shorin ryu karate and i've also 1 year of boxing and 2years in muay thai I have extensive martial arts knowledge. I'm talking about increasing physical strength and speed metaphysically if such a thing is possible.
Title: Re: Who is Practicing the IIH?
Post by: Willi on November 26, 2011, 05:34:39 PM
Thanks BubbaFett. I'll take the same approach i do towards physical training. if it hurts in the tendons and joints back off for a bit. It takes longer for those areas to heal and get stronger. If it hurts I back off and go back to foundation training. Its better to start slow and gain a solid momentum then to start fast and have a wobbly momentum. Though I don't know all dangers of metaphysical practice could someone enlighten me?

@Willi I am brown belt in shorin ryu karate and i've also 1 year of boxing and 2years in muay thai I have extensive martial arts knowledge. I'm talking about increasing physical strength and speed metaphysically if such a thing is possible.

In that case, keep doing what you're doing, whatever that be. :P
Title: Re: Who is Practicing the IIH?
Post by: MariusAnil on November 26, 2011, 05:57:19 PM
Heh heh Willi made a funny.
Title: Re: Who is Practicing the IIH?
Post by: ThePhoenix13 on November 26, 2011, 06:02:30 PM

Your post is what I was scared of, don't take this as an example, learn properly.

"Properly" being used in a subjective context. You have your ways and others have theirs. If you don't want to read his posts, then don't. No need to stomp all over everyone else in the process.

Knowledge cannot replace experience and practice in gaining wisdom. Bardon even states this himself. Melchizedek's posts portrays thoughts and knowledge, but it is still up to the initiate to experience these things, and more, for himself/herself.
Title: Re: Who is Practicing the IIH?
Post by: Akenu on November 26, 2011, 06:09:52 PM

Your post is what I was scared of, don't take this as an example, learn properly.

"Properly" being used in a subjective context. You have your ways and others have theirs. If you don't want to read his posts, then don't. No need to stomp all over everyone else in the process.

No, "properly" being used in objective context.

Quote
Knowledge cannot replace experience and practice in gaining wisdom. Bardon even states this himself.

That is right. Knowledge can even mislead the path and block the process of gaining wisdom, that is why I took actions I did.

Quote
Melchizedek's posts portrays thoughts and knowledge, but it is still up to the initiate to experience these things, and more, for himself/herself.

Yes, but someone could take Melchizedek's posts as matter of experience instead of "knowledge" and that is unpleasant course of action. If the child really does step up on the ladder as he says, then I am sure he will understand me pretty soon.
Title: Re: Who is Practicing the IIH?
Post by: ThePhoenix13 on November 26, 2011, 06:14:30 PM
Interesting.

What are your thoughts on commentaries such as the one Veos created or at bardoncompanion?
Title: Re: Who is Practicing the IIH?
Post by: mrblack on November 26, 2011, 08:51:19 PM
Thanks BubbaFett. I'll take the same approach i do towards physical training. if it hurts in the tendons and joints back off for a bit. It takes longer for those areas to heal and get stronger. If it hurts I back off and go back to foundation training. Its better to start slow and gain a solid momentum then to start fast and have a wobbly momentum. Though I don't know all dangers of metaphysical practice could someone enlighten me?

@Willi I am brown belt in shorin ryu karate and i've also 1 year of boxing and 2years in muay thai I have extensive martial arts knowledge. I'm talking about increasing physical strength and speed metaphysically if such a thing is possible.

Nice. A fellow karate practitioner - nice to meet you.
I was a practitioner of Shotokan & Shorin-Ji karate for years.

What I find is that it helps if you have an almost perfect control of your body to be able to augment
physical speed and strength. While I've never been able to achieve a significant strength "boost",
I've been able to take advantage of increased "speed" via ki manipulation in certain situations.....till
I started slacking off.

Now, back to our regular IIH posting.
Title: Re: Who is Practicing the IIH?
Post by: MariusAnil on November 26, 2011, 10:15:48 PM
hmmm its funny i've been thinking about studying Shotokan for a while now(well that and aikido can't make my mind up). your  statement of piques my interest speed is king after all. could you pm me with further info? if you can find the time.
Title: Re: Who is Practicing the IIH?
Post by: Akenu on November 27, 2011, 08:14:31 AM
Interesting.

What are your thoughts on commentaries such as the one Veos created or at bardoncompanion?

The same as about any other commentary. It is good to help avoid some mistakes and also widen the range of people interested in the Art. After all, Kabbalah is accessible to the manking publicly thanks to the commentary ;-).

I wouldn't compare Veos' commentary with Melchizedek's thoughts.
Title: Re: Who is Practicing the IIH?
Post by: ThePhoenix13 on November 27, 2011, 09:27:45 AM
I wouldn't compare Veos' commentary with Melchizedek's thoughts.

Why is that?
Title: Re: Who is Practicing the IIH?
Post by: Melchizedek on November 27, 2011, 12:00:28 PM
Well, I just loaded the magic mirror I made, so that it will give me all the understanding from the IIH. I was just practicing the concentration exercises from Step 1 and I am being instructed by the brotherhood of light who speak to me through my magic mirror to continue where I left off at Step 8

I was doing the mental wandering to the point where I couldn't get my consciousness back in my mind on the mental level.

As far as lighting a wick of a candle on fire, using the air element and fire element I'm concerned that something is going to blow up, if I persist in doing it.

I know that this is the fire element reaching the point where it is going to influence the physical and catch on fire.

I have an intuitive understanding of everything from this book, from the introduction up to Step 8. All my recent posts are based on my intuitive experiences.

Right now the remainder of the book is calling me to complete it. So I'll see what happens when I reach the end of the book and post what happens.

That is if I have any more revelations

Title: Re: Who is Practicing the IIH?
Post by: MariusAnil on November 27, 2011, 12:50:28 PM
As far as lighting a wick of a candle on fire, using the air element and fire element I'm concerned that something is going to blow up, if I persist in doing it.
that is called a thermobaric explosion and that only happens if the fuel air mixture is just right. I think its also called a blevy when happens to a fuel container. a candle wick should not blow up unless there is other factors causing the fuel air mixture phenomena as explained above(or maybe you could use gun powder that would "blow up")  :P
Title: Re: Who is Practicing the IIH?
Post by: Aunt Clair on November 27, 2011, 04:40:57 PM
I don't believe that parlor tricks are necessary. I don't think Bardon expected for the magician to be able to light a lamp or a cotton ball with a fire mudra. He actually doesn't list this as a skill to be sought before moving on to the next step nor does he layout a detailed method to accomplish this. It is mentioned in passing as something he saw another do. Was that an act of legerdemain or an act by an accomplished pyro psion?

What should be accomplished at the conclusion of Step X are
*the skills listed at the end of each step which don't include lighting cotton balls with fire mudras
and the abilities to;
*enter and maintain trance at will
*raise energy at will
*send healing to self,pets, plants, others
*have meditative visions
*see the teachers whom appear and learn through visions
*link with another to heal or exorcise
*project shamynically
*follow angels and mahatma in dreamstate lessons
*load specific elemental energies as needed
*tour the higher planes
*pass through the ring pass not and the window on the edge of the universe
*map out the cosmology of the soul and the realms, microverse and macroverse
*attain Shamballah as a student, peer and teacher
*call the teachers;see and hear their lessons
*meet and communicate with elementals, spirits, demons, angels, Mahatma
*have knowledge & communication with the HGA
*alchemically transmute the LS,GD,DW
*obtain occult wisdoms at will
*work with angels in dreamstate             
*attain Henios

The adept can feel,see, hear, call and fly. 

All of which are possible if the magician develops the abilities;
*to feel clairsentiently with water
*to see clairvoyantly with  fire
*to hear clairaudiently with air
*to call in evocation with  earth
*to fly in projection with water purging earth and fire heating air




















Title: Re: Who is Practicing the IIH?
Post by: Melchizedek on November 27, 2011, 05:12:29 PM
I don't believe that parlor tricks are necessary. I don't think Bardon expected for the magician to be able to light a lamp or a cotton ball with a fire mudra. He actually doesn't list this as a skill to be sought before moving on to the next step nor does he layout a detailed method to accomplish this. It is mentioned in passing as something he saw another do. Was that an act of legerdemain or an act by an accomplished pyro psion?

What should be accomplished at the conclusion of Step X are
*the skills listed at the end of each step which don't include lighting cotton balls with fire mudras
and the abilities to;
*enter and maintain trance at will
*raise energy at will
*send healing to self,pets, plants, others
*have meditative visions
*see the teachers whom appear and learn through visions
*link with another to heal or exorcise
*project shamynically
*follow angels and mahatma in dreamstate lessons
*load specific elemental energies as needed
*tour the higher planes
*pass through the ring pass not and the window on the edge of the universe
*map out the cosmology of the soul and the realms, microverse and macroverse
*attain Shamballah as a student, peer and teacher
*call the teachers;see and hear their lessons
*meet and communicate with elementals, spirits, demons, angels, Mahatma
*have knowledge & communication with the HGA
*alchemically transmute the LS,GD,DW
*obtain occult wisdoms at will
*work with angels in dreamstate             
*attain Henios

The adept can feel,see, hear, call and fly. 

All of which are possible if the magician develops the abilities;
*to feel clairsentiently with water
*to see clairvoyantly with  fire
*to hear clairaudiently with air
*to call in evocation with  earth
*to fly in projection with water purging earth and fire heating air






















No, I definitely know that at that point in the training you should be able to light a ball soaked in kerosene, filled with the air element, then hit with a spark from the fire element.

But, you really have to be able to compress the fire element to such a dynamide that it glows from the mental plane where your compressing it and be able to send it with your mind into the kerosene ball and actually light it on fire.

Your right that it is a parlor trick though, yet it's more about how well you've mastered the elements to that point in your training.

If you have practiced everything that he talks about in IIH correctly up to that point in the book, if you can not light a fireball with the fire element then you are kidding yourself about how well that you've mastered the previous training up to that point.








Title: Re: Who is Practicing the IIH?
Post by: ThePhoenix13 on November 27, 2011, 05:40:04 PM
Didn't Bardon state that the fire element was not completely analogous with the worldly flame, but only shared characteristics with it such as light, expansiveness, etc. How can you light something aflame with the fire element if a flame is tetrapolar?
Title: Re: Who is Practicing the IIH?
Post by: mrblack on November 27, 2011, 08:55:54 PM
I don't believe that parlor tricks are necessary. I don't think Bardon expected for the magician to be able to light a lamp or a cotton ball with a fire mudra. He actually doesn't list this as a skill to be sought before moving on to the next step nor does he layout a detailed method to accomplish this. It is mentioned in passing as something he saw another do. Was that an act of legerdemain or an act by an accomplished pyro psion?

--->

Well said, thank you for bringing these points up.
Many a times, beginners becomes misguided in their struggle to achieve mastery.
Title: Re: Who is Practicing the IIH?
Post by: Jesse9209 on November 28, 2011, 02:30:26 PM
Quote
"Magicians trained in this line can condense an element to such a degree that it becomes a
material power. That is why you can light a fire with the help of the fire element at the
greatest distance. At first, practice drawing a fiery ball down from the universe directly
without having it pass through the body, and compress it to a small bead so as to grow a
glowing spark. Put this spark in a cotton ball that has been soaked in easily inflammable
liquid such as ether, alcohol, or petrol. A second spark is to be prepared in the same way with
the air element, and the very moment both sparks touch the cotton ball, it will catch fire and
begin to burn. Having succeeded in this little trick, the magician can make an attempt with
the wick of an ordinary candle, and later on with a paraffin lamp. He can do this near and far.
Apart from it, he can also confine a spark to a glass or a bottle, and fling a water-spark into
this container, quick as a flash. As soon as these two sparks touch each other, both elements
will explode and the glass or bottle will break into pieces. The magician can compose such
artifices himself because he knows and masters the rules. The genuine magician will not
waste his time with such dallying.
He knows very well that he could produce as well as stop
phenomena such as lightning, thunder, and rain by means of the elements. All these forces
that strike the layman as wondrous manifestations go without saying for the magician, and it
is entirely up to him whether he likes to specialize in the line of phenomena or prefers to
continue with his magical development. It is also a well known fact to him that the oriental
fakirs accomplish their genuine mango-tree miracle, growing from seed to fruit within an
hour, only by mastering the elements.

Enough said. The purpose of the elemental exercises is to purify the element in the student so that it is pure and functions properly. The practices in step 5 also make it so that the elements cannot control the magician freeing up their conciousness so that they can evolve free of the lower powers of the elements. This only requires the development to the control of the astral plane, it is unnecessary and Bardon say's in this section "The genuine magician will not waste his time with such dallying."
Title: Re: Who is Practicing the IIH?
Post by: Melchizedek on November 28, 2011, 07:00:30 PM
Just came across this, worth reading
http://hermeticnexus.wordpress.com/category/franz-bardon/ (http://hermeticnexus.wordpress.com/category/franz-bardon/)
Title: Re: Who is Practicing the IIH?
Post by: Melchizedek on November 29, 2011, 01:17:25 AM
I was just contemplating the exercise of lighting a wick from a candle on fire, using you imagination calling forth the fire element. I realize now that anyone can do it. That is anyone who practices the mental exercises from IIH, long enough to have developed their imaginations, through the exercises and made it strong enough to really see a glowing spark, from out of the Akasha.

If you've tried and can't do it, it's only because your imagination isn't developed enough. If you keep working on developing it, you'll, meaning anyone will be able to do it
Title: Re: Who is Practicing the IIH?
Post by: Jesse9209 on November 29, 2011, 09:18:56 AM
The same applies to nearly any occult power. It does not mean that the student should spend that much time working on the elements rather than moving on in the steps to deepen their spiritual training. The later training will continue to develop the imagination and the student can come back to specialize in phenomenon like that at a later point if they wish.

Its possible, it may have some spiritual benefits by deepening the exercise to that degree, but its not what Bardon intended for his students to do at that point.

That being said Melchidedek if you truely have spent that much time working on IIH then kudos you certainly have achieved a good deal in the IIH training.
Title: Re: Who is Practicing the IIH?
Post by: Melchizedek on November 29, 2011, 11:20:12 AM
The same applies to nearly any occult power. It does not mean that the student should spend that much time working on the elements rather than moving on in the steps to deepen their spiritual training. The later training will continue to develop the imagination and the student can come back to specialize in phenomenon like that at a later point if they wish.

Its possible, it may have some spiritual benefits by deepening the exercise to that degree, but its not what Bardon intended for his students to do at that point.

That being said Melchidedek if you truely have spent that much time working on IIH then kudos you certainly have achieved a good deal in the IIH training.

You have to understand something. At that point where he says that you should be able to light a wick on fire, if you can't doing it at that point, then you havn't developed your imagination to the point it's suppossed to be at, at this point in the training

I'm saying you have to go back to the beginning and deepen all the exercises, back up to the point where you once again try to lght the wick.

You have to be able to do it or you have to go back and as I'm saying, the problem is that your imagination hasn't become strong enough.

I say this because people arn't sure about this part, because it does seem like an impossible feat.

I'm saying that it isn't impossible, that the root cause of the problem lays in the imagination, still not being properly developed to the point it has to be at, at this point in the training, whether you try to light the wick or not.
Title: Re: Who is Practicing the IIH?
Post by: Jesse9209 on November 29, 2011, 12:33:22 PM
Bardon states clearly that he does not expect his students to accomplish that task at that point in their training. He say's directly, "The genuine magician will not waste his time with such dallying" directly after talking about lighting a candle with the elements. So while that may be your opinion it is not what Bardon expects.
Title: Re: Who is Practicing the IIH?
Post by: mrblack on November 30, 2011, 12:00:10 PM
The same applies to nearly any occult power. It does not mean that the student should spend that much time working on the elements rather than moving on in the steps to deepen their spiritual training. The later training will continue to develop the imagination and the student can come back to specialize in phenomenon like that at a later point if they wish.

Its possible, it may have some spiritual benefits by deepening the exercise to that degree, but its not what Bardon intended for his students to do at that point.

That being said Melchidedek if you truely have spent that much time working on IIH then kudos you certainly have achieved a good deal in the IIH training.

You have to understand something. At that point where he says that you should be able to light a wick on fire, if you can't doing it at that point, then you havn't developed your imagination to the point it's suppossed to be at, at this point in the training

I'm saying you have to go back to the beginning and deepen all the exercises, back up to the point where you once again try to lght the wick.

You have to be able to do it or you have to go back and as I'm saying, the problem is that your imagination hasn't become strong enough.

I say this because people arn't sure about this part, because it does seem like an impossible feat.

I'm saying that it isn't impossible, that the root cause of the problem lays in the imagination, still not being properly developed to the point it has to be at, at this point in the training, whether you try to light the wick or not.


Alright folks, just so we have an unbiased opinion on this current topic.
Link below is Rawn Clarke correspondence on the importance of distinguishing
between what Franz Bardon expects and what he says is possible.

http://www.abardoncompanion.com/Expect2.html

Now, fellow readers, feel free to take what you've read into consideration and
make your own opinions.

P.S: Some people are "gifted" at these sort of things, some people might be IIH
geniuses, quite possible.....c'est la vie, yeah?
Title: Re: Who is Practicing the IIH?
Post by: Melchizedek on November 30, 2011, 02:32:05 PM
The same applies to nearly any occult power. It does not mean that the student should spend that much time working on the elements rather than moving on in the steps to deepen their spiritual training. The later training will continue to develop the imagination and the student can come back to specialize in phenomenon like that at a later point if they wish.

Its possible, it may have some spiritual benefits by deepening the exercise to that degree, but its not what Bardon intended for his students to do at that point.

That being said Melchidedek if you truely have spent that much time working on IIH then kudos you certainly have achieved a good deal in the IIH training.

You have to understand something. At that point where he says that you should be able to light a wick on fire, if you can't doing it at that point, then you havn't developed your imagination to the point it's suppossed to be at, at this point in the training

I'm saying you have to go back to the beginning and deepen all the exercises, back up to the point where you once again try to lght the wick.

You have to be able to do it or you have to go back and as I'm saying, the problem is that your imagination hasn't become strong enough.

I say this because people arn't sure about this part, because it does seem like an impossible feat.

I'm saying that it isn't impossible, that the root cause of the problem lays in the imagination, still not being properly developed to the point it has to be at, at this point in the training, whether you try to light the wick or not.


Alright folks, just so we have an unbiased opinion on this current topic.
Link below is Rawn Clarke correspondence on the importance of distinguishing
between what Franz Bardon expects and what he says is possible.

http://www.abardoncompanion.com/Expect2.html

Now, fellow readers, feel free to take what you've read into consideration and
make your own opinions.

P.S: Some people are "gifted" at these sort of things, some people might be IIH
geniuses, quite possible.....c'est la vie, yeah?

Regardless of what anyone says and I understand that what somone says, without having the person who said or wrote it to confirm what they meant there's no way to confirm the exact menaing of what they write, I still look at myself as failing to properly do the mental exercises correctly, if I can't light a candle wick on fire using my mind with the fire element.

Everything that he says in that book, if I can't do every single thing he mentions in that book, then I will continue to deepen and re-deepen every single mental exrecise form IIH, until I've gone to the point where I have no choice, but to move on to "Practice of Magic Evocation"

That's how I look at it, if someone looks at it differently it's their right to do so.

I need to see that what someone says about IIH is true for myself. I can't accept that someone says their right, just because everyone agrees with them.

I don't hold anything against Rawn Clark. He probaly has the most complete knowledge about what IIH is about on the whole internet

However, knowledge and understanding are 2 different things.

I'm sorry but to me saying that Bardon doesn't mean what he says is chickening out from really mastering this magic system.

If he didn't mean it, then why write it. If it's so un-important, then why tell me about it in the book
Title: Re: Who is Practicing the IIH?
Post by: Jesse9209 on November 30, 2011, 05:23:12 PM
Melchizedek do me a favor and read that section of IIH again. Bardon says while using the example of the wick as dallying to the magician that was a copy paste from IIH not my opinion.
Title: Re: Who is Practicing the IIH?
Post by: mrblack on November 30, 2011, 09:08:25 PM
Regardless of what anyone says and I understand that what somone says, without having the person who said or wrote it to confirm what they meant there's no way to confirm the exact menaing of what they write, I still look at myself as failing to properly do the mental exercises correctly, if I can't light a candle wick on fire using my mind with the fire element.

Everything that he says in that book, if I can't do every single thing he mentions in that book, then I will continue to deepen and re-deepen every single mental exrecise form IIH, until I've gone to the point where I have no choice, but to move on to "Practice of Magic Evocation". That's how I look at it, if someone looks at it differently it's their right to do so. I need to see that what someone says about IIH is true for myself. I can't accept that someone says their right, just because everyone agrees with them.

I don't hold anything against Rawn Clark. He probaly has the most complete knowledge about what IIH is about on the whole internet. However, knowledge and understanding are 2 different things.

I'm sorry but to me saying that Bardon doesn't mean what he says is chickening out from really mastering this magic system. If he didn't mean it, then why write it. If it's so un-important, then why tell me about it in the book
I merely pointed that article out for the many beginners that are reading this thread because obviously, we have 2 sets of beliefs regarding the understanding of the book.

I can respect the fact that you're taking a hard line towards the practice and teachings in IIH. I've known people who is quite gifted in pyrokinesis so I do not dissuade your claims. Perhaps, it would be beneficial for the rest of the readers if you can provide a commentary of what you did and how you accomplished your amazing growth in the articles section?
Title: Re: Who is Practicing the IIH?
Post by: Melchizedek on November 30, 2011, 11:30:56 PM
Melchizedek do me a favor and read that section of IIH again. Bardon says while using the example of the wick as dallying to the magician that was a copy paste from IIH not my opinion.

I agree with you 100%, it would be a total waste of time to light a wick with the fire element. However, in order to do real healing, to be able to develop your clairvoyance, so that you could see inside a person and detect excatly what the nature of their illness is and help heal them, you would need to have your mastery of the fire element so powerful, that you could light the wick of a candle on fire.

See I'm looking for all the things that Bardon understood, from the perspective of having mastered the first tarot card to the point where you could really utilize the 4 elements to the full potential of whatever secrets that they hold.

He says things like light the wick of a candle on fire, but what can you really do that he doesn't talk about, if you had such mastery of the fire element.

I don't want to develop my mastery of this sytem to do such a thing. I want to develop it to that point to see the total scope of what's humanly possible to do with the mastery of the elements at that point.

At this point I can only think of a few things for each element

Mastery of Fire Element- All things to do with developing occult power, from the trasnmutation of the fire element into white light.

See this is all I can think of about the fire element, because this is all I know at this point.

I don't want to be able to light a wick on fire for that power. I want it for all the other things, that he doesn't talk about inthe book, that I don't know about and won't know about, unless I can get my mastery of that element and the others to perfection.

Probaly repeated myself, but I'm looking for all the secret things that I, you or anybody can only know about through personal mastery of each element.

Only a master magicain would know and they probaly wouldn't want to reveal such a secret to the public.

I need to know and there's only one way to accomplish it. Have to totally master it
Title: Re: Who is Practicing the IIH?
Post by: Melchizedek on November 30, 2011, 11:35:13 PM
Regardless of what anyone says and I understand that what somone says, without having the person who said or wrote it to confirm what they meant there's no way to confirm the exact menaing of what they write, I still look at myself as failing to properly do the mental exercises correctly, if I can't light a candle wick on fire using my mind with the fire element.

Everything that he says in that book, if I can't do every single thing he mentions in that book, then I will continue to deepen and re-deepen every single mental exrecise form IIH, until I've gone to the point where I have no choice, but to move on to "Practice of Magic Evocation". That's how I look at it, if someone looks at it differently it's their right to do so. I need to see that what someone says about IIH is true for myself. I can't accept that someone says their right, just because everyone agrees with them.

I don't hold anything against Rawn Clark. He probaly has the most complete knowledge about what IIH is about on the whole internet. However, knowledge and understanding are 2 different things.

I'm sorry but to me saying that Bardon doesn't mean what he says is chickening out from really mastering this magic system. If he didn't mean it, then why write it. If it's so un-important, then why tell me about it in the book
I merely pointed that article out for the many beginners that are reading this thread because obviously, we have 2 sets of beliefs regarding the understanding of the book.

I can respect the fact that you're taking a hard line towards the practice and teachings in IIH. I've known people who is quite gifted in pyrokinesis so I do not dissuade your claims. Perhaps, it would be beneficial for the rest of the readers if you can provide a commentary of what you did and how you accomplished your amazing growth in the articles section?

My secret for boosting my success with IIH, was to make an audio of the into of IIH, so that I could meditate on it, over and over again without really understanding what he was talking about. Little by little, bits and pieces came to me and I understand that the whole book is the first step in becoming a master magician and that is mastering the elements.

Before you do anything, this is what the first Tarot card's about. I know he says it in the book, but I couldn't see it for myself. That is not until I mindlessly listened to my audio version of the intro, over and over and over.
Title: Re: Who is Practicing the IIH?
Post by: Jesse9209 on December 01, 2011, 08:32:44 AM
I agree that the magician should be able to do that but I don't agree with at that point. Bardon saying that its dallying which the genuine magician will not do tells me that if he expects the student to do it at some point it is likely later on in step 8 or beyond after further training. He expects the students imagination and concentration to grow progressively throughout all of IIH and to be able to concentrate for 15 minutes without distraction on each sense by step 7.
Title: Re: Who is Practicing the IIH?
Post by: Prado on December 01, 2011, 08:38:13 AM
Gonna start working through the IIH curriculum tonight. I'll be sure to drop in and let everyone know what i think. :)
Title: Re: Who is Practicing the IIH?
Post by: Steve on December 01, 2011, 05:19:16 PM
I agree that the magician should be able to do that but I don't agree with at that point. Bardon saying that its dallying which the genuine magician will not do tells me that if he expects the student to do it at some point it is likely later on in step 8 or beyond after further training. He expects the students imagination and concentration to grow progressively throughout all of IIH and to be able to concentrate for 15 minutes without distraction on each sense by step 7.
Firstly, a student is probably not quite a "Genuine Magician" and thus the statement of what a "Genuine Magician" would or would not do does not have to apply to the student.

Secondly, you can perform tests for yourself to make sure that you're actually progressing rather than merely pretending to progress. Being able to perform certain feats would be indicators of such progress, even if not the goal of the progress. No different than in martial arts: if after x hours training you should be able to perform y maneuver and you can't, then you should re-evaluate how you're training. If, on the other hand, you can perform maneuver y after x hours, then you can be assured that your time spent in training has indeed been spent towards something worthwhile instead of wasted towards something worthless, and then you can keep training for even loftier advancement with a clear mind rather than a doubtful mind.

~Steve
Title: Re: Who is Practicing the IIH?
Post by: Patanjali on December 01, 2011, 05:48:35 PM
One thing to keep in mind is that the iih doesn't go into week point training. This is a not so known trap within the iih, there are many more. Not everyone is the same. Scientifically speaking, there are three base types of memories. The sense of feel, sight, and heating. Audio memory, by heating. Sense or feeling based memory, more hands on, and visual memory, through sighr. Most people are a combination of two. This is only a example however. Certain exercises should be focused on longer for certain people, there really is no base time limit for everyone. Actually, the first thing that should be done is to forget the time frame.

You have to decide your abilities, buoy have to really Analise yourself, to that your not moving on overly early. As Steve said, it is like martial arts, or weight lifting. I prefer weight lifting, I think it works as a better analogy for this. Not everyones muscles can be trained the same way. Certain people develop faster from genetics (past lives would make development faster for some more so than others, magically speaking), these people don't have to work as hard. Certain people develop better from white muscle fiber training (fast twitch muscle, fibers), and others from the white muscle fiber training ( slow twitch).

Get give guys and give woman, train them all the same way. Some will have terrible results, others great. Same with the iih. Give it to 10 people, all do everything the same. Same amount of training, everything. They will all come out with neutering results, generally not good for the most part. Everyone has a different level of balance between the the three base spheres. Such as someone who workout 7 days a week, a good example Beowulf be olympic training. There far more developed in the physical sphere and the earth element than anything else, leading the other two based spheres lacking, causing imbalance. Most everyone starts imbalanced, another trap that isn't in the iih. You you bring yourself to some type of balance prior,
 training will progress far quicker. Last but not least, always perform tragacanth everything you do, as Steve said. Test yourself after each step, multiple times before moving on.
Title: Re: Who is Practicing the IIH?
Post by: Melchizedek on December 01, 2011, 10:27:16 PM
Steps 4 & 5 are the main building exercises for building up your strength and power of each of the elements

You have:

The first exercise where your sitting in the asana position and then drawing each element into the body starting with 7 breathes and working your way up to 25 or so at a max
Then you have the exercise, where your drawing each element into different body parts and into each internal organ, through 2 methods of
drawing the element into the whole body, then re-directing it into each body part and internal organ, one by one
Then drawing it directly into each body part, staright from the Universe and repeating the above procedure
Then your balancing the elements all together throughout the appropiate body sections
Then your drawing in the element and sending it outwards through your solar plexus and fingers.

So basically there are 5 main exercises for developing the mastery of each of the elements.

 I think he mentions lighting the wick on fire, because your doing all your main power work with the elements at this midway point in the training

(http://www.melchizedeksmp3club.com/webpage%20pictures/masteriih.jpg)

Title: Re: Who is Practicing the IIH?
Post by: Jordana Divinorum on December 29, 2011, 11:20:17 PM
Thanks or the replies guys.  I don't mean to sound like a troll, but I guess I was wondering if it was worth getting deep into the elemental stuff if it's not possible to produce any physical effects.  Sure, people on message boards around the world claim they can make the temperature of the room hotter with their mind, but not one instance of this type of elemental magick has even been documented.  I've only never heard of psychic or magical healing being documented.  Since the witch trails are over, there doesn't seem to be a big need for secrecy anymore.  You can find books on occultism and witchcraft at your local Chapters store. 
I've been practicing IIH on and off for a few years, and the mental benefits are definitely worthwhile.  I'm not sold that you can become Harry Potter, but it definitely builds character and can help you get ready for things like astral travel and evocation.  I need to get back into this book even if the benefits are purely in your head.  Good luck with your work in the New Year.
Title: Re: Who is Practicing the IIH?
Post by: mrblack on December 30, 2011, 02:06:05 AM
Thanks or the replies guys.  I don't mean to sound like a troll, but I guess I was wondering if it was worth getting deep into the elemental stuff if it's not possible to produce any physical effects.  Sure, people on message boards around the world claim they can make the temperature of the room hotter with their mind, but not one instance of this type of elemental magick has even been documented.  I've only never heard of psychic or magical healing being documented.  Since the witch trails are over, there doesn't seem to be a big need for secrecy anymore.  You can find books on occultism and witchcraft at your local Chapters store. 
I've been practicing IIH on and off for a few years, and the mental benefits are definitely worthwhile.  I'm not sold that you can become Harry Potter, but it definitely builds character and can help you get ready for things like astral travel and evocation.  I need to get back into this book even if the benefits are purely in your head.  Good luck with your work in the New Year.

Well, to be fair - where has magick ever been "officially" documented (besides when it's being written down that it's the devils work).
As for secrecy; they still hunt down sorcerers in the middle east and they just did some sort of shaman genocide in South America so.....
I just found out that in Canada (where I live), they have laws against people practicing witchcraft.
Authors have written about things they can do once they've reached a certain level  in IIH.
I just wish I'd get to those levels already.....*sigh*

Title: Re: Who is Practicing the IIH?
Post by: Jordana Divinorum on December 30, 2011, 12:27:11 PM
Quote
Well, to be fair - where has magick ever been "officially" documented (besides when it's being written down that it's the devils work).
As for secrecy; they still hunt down sorcerers in the middle east and they just did some sort of shaman genocide in South America so.....
I just found out that in Canada (where I live), they have laws against people practicing witchcraft.
Authors have written about things they can do once they've reached a certain level  in IIH.
I just wish I'd get to those levels already.....*sigh*

I live in Canada.  They don't have laws against witchcraft.  They have laws against the fraudulent practice of witchcraft.  This means you can charge someone for ripping a poor sucker off.  There are no Canadian laws that prohibit the practice of withcraft of any type of magick. 

It's sad that things like that still happen in the middle east, but in North America I think you would be safe if you claimed you could raise the temperature of the room.  Many people have gone on the James Randi show and tried to win his cash.  Also, there are many psychic detectives, psychics for hire, occult authors, Wiccan covens, new age bookstores, occult orders, and the chuch of Satan.  I believe North America is a safe environment to investigate claims of occult powers if all of these things exist without public outcry. 

What I meant by documented is that magick has never been scientifically documented; there has only been documentation defrauding it.  No one has ever proven a psychic ability or ability to perform telekinesis or some power like that. 

Can you tell me which authors said they can do certain things after reaching a certain level in IIH?
My practice has been pretty terrible lately.  You know how life gets in the way. Hopefully I'll get back into my routine.  Cheers.
Title: Re: Who is Practicing the IIH?
Post by: trismegistos on December 30, 2011, 01:33:25 PM
James Randi prize ay......  this might be of interest.

http://www.dailygrail.com/features/the-myth-of-james-randis-million-dollar-challenge
Title: Re: Who is Practicing the IIH?
Post by: Steve on December 30, 2011, 07:07:51 PM
What I meant by documented is that magick has never been scientifically documented; there has only been documentation defrauding it.  No one has ever proven a psychic ability or ability to perform telekinesis or some power like that.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nina_Kulagina
"According to reports from the Soviet Union, forty scientists, two of whom were Nobel laureates, studied Kulagina.[6]"

It's not that it hasn't been documented in scientific experiments. The problem is found within the same webpage:

"Many skeptical individuals and organizations, such as the James Randi Educational Foundation and the Italian Committee for the Investigation of Claims on the Paranormal (CICAP) express strong skepticism regarding the truth of these claims. It is noted that the long preparation times and uncontrolled environments (such as hotel rooms) in which the experiments took place left much potential for trickery.[10] Skeptics have argued that many of Kulagina's feats could easily be performed by one practiced in sleight of hand, through means such as cleverly concealed or disguised threads, small pieces of magnetic metal, or mirrors.[11] They further point to the fact that no sleight of hand experts appear to have ever been present during experiments, and that the Cold War-era Soviet Union had an obvious motive for falsifying or exaggerating results in the potential propaganda value in appearing to win a "Psi Race" analogous to the concurrent Space Race or arms race.[citation needed]"

An experiment is (or many many experiments are) run by scientists, who document their efforts the same as they would any other experiment. After they're done, they publish their findings the same as always. After this is done, someone else entirely, who had nothing to do with the experiments yet who claims to have some sort of authority on the matter (whether claiming to be scientists, or professors, or studious persons of whatever background, or stage magicians), comes along and seem to cast so much "doubt" on the experiments, through nothing more than offering alternative explanations or outright lying about things that supposedly happened during the experiments, that society at large listens to the naysayers and let the matter be swept from their minds. Scientists found Facts; disbelievers made Claims. Yet it is the loudest voice, not the most accurate voice, which controls the perceptions of society.

It's not that magical/psychic phenomenon haven't been scientifically documented; it's that materialistic scientists/wanna-bes hold so much sway over public opinion that any member of our so-called modern society is belittled when they attempt to believe in spirits and faeries and whatnot. And there's a reason for this; history. Scientists were very influential in proving that many superstitions were invalid, and thus they came to the conclusion that ALL metaphysical believes are superstitions, and continually try to tell society so.

~Steve
Title: Re: Who is Practicing the IIH?
Post by: trismegistos on December 31, 2011, 12:28:40 AM
Scientists were very influential in proving that many superstitions were invalid, and thus they came to the conclusion that ALL metaphysical believes are superstitions, and continually try to tell society so.

~Steve

Bravo, sir.  Bravo.

Not that the rest of your post wasn't awesome, but it's amazing how brainwashed "logical free thinkers" really are.  On a few occasions I've shown such naysayers these studies, and they pretend like they never even read them and continue to argue their opinions as facts.
Title: Re: Who is Practicing the IIH?
Post by: Melchizedek on December 31, 2011, 04:43:46 PM
It's hidden from you
Title: Re: Who is Practicing the IIH?
Post by: trismegistos on December 31, 2011, 06:38:52 PM
For a self proclaimed advanced practitioner of IIH, you sure do have a big ego spouting off how your are the chosen one initiated directly by the White Brotherhood etc. and how nobody else but you knows how to "truly" read IIH

Might want to get them soul mirrors worked on first, perhaps you didn't read the part where Bardon says character sublimation is the most important exercise.
Title: Re: Who is Practicing the IIH?
Post by: ArcaTuthus on January 01, 2012, 12:53:51 AM
You are a welcome new years merriment. M
Title: Re: Who is Practicing the IIH?
Post by: trismegistos on January 01, 2012, 12:54:56 AM
YUNOMKSNSE
Title: Re: Who is Practicing the IIH?
Post by: Silver_Archer on January 01, 2012, 01:13:55 AM
This has now descended to bickering of Kindergarten levels. Now, while this might be indicative of the intellectual depth one would come to expect from hermetic mages, it would be nice if we didn't do it on the forums in such an obvious display. :)

And should you find that offensive, just remember; I am not the one mashing randomly at my keyboard with the caps lock on.
Title: Re: Who is Practicing the IIH?
Post by: Melchizedek on January 01, 2012, 01:50:07 AM
If you doubt about whether or not you can really do miracles, like Franz Bardon has been stated to do, it's because the ability to do what he can do is hidden from you. You can say that I'm deluded and knock my karma down to minus 10,000.

In the end your only lying to yourself about how well you understand his magic system

I know that you can not understand what I'm saying. For the most part, you can only go as far with magic as you can on an intellectual level. Not on a spirtual one, you can't deal with it, it's too much power.

It's too much power because the negative characteristics of the four elements is too great inside you and that's why you don't make any progress towards mastering and understanding the mental exercises.

You say magic doesn't work, how can you prove it does. It doesn't work because you only talk about it. You only go as far with it, as you can go by talking about it and not really doing it.

He says right in the book, you can read the book, but if you don't commit to really working it, you get nowhere.

Look at your commitment to it and in that you'll see the reason why magic doesn't work for you
Title: Re: Who is Practicing the IIH?
Post by: Akenu on January 01, 2012, 09:11:41 AM
I actually see that interesting . Read every of melchizedek's messages and imagine someone says that to him. I think his sub-c wants to tell him something.
Title: Re: Who is Practicing the IIH?
Post by: MariusAnil on January 01, 2012, 11:15:36 AM
@ Steve: to phase the intense skepticism of those organisations you would need double blind statistical analysis type experiments like this one :biggrin:  http://www.huffingtonpost.com/cassandra-vieten/esp-evidence_b_795366.html.
Title: Re: Who is Practicing the IIH?
Post by: ArcaTuthus on January 01, 2012, 12:25:00 PM
This has now descended to bickering of Kindergarten levels. Now, while this might be indicative of the intellectual depth one would come to expect from hermetic mages, it would be nice if we didn't do it on the forums in such an obvious display. :)

And should you find that offensive, just remember; I am not the one mashing randomly at my keyboard with the caps lock on.

I'd like to call myself someone who follows hermetic lineage, but I have to also agree with you. On a side note, I have learned that NOTHING on the internet is ever really offensive, unless you bring your self down to the level of being offended. Really we just offend ourselves. It is kind of sad that something like Hermetics, which should be viewed as a beautiful way to bring harmony, peace, and clarity into ones life, is constantly being represented by these kinds of displays simply because false ego (I know what magic REALLY is, NO I DO!! NO,ME ME ME!!!) is running rampant. Ego needs to be sublimated in my very humble opinion, which doesn't mean eliminated mind you, but instead put under conscientious control. This means when someone is posting ridiculous things to basically tease us, we simply don't respond, go meditate, and put our minds onto the priorities we have deemed appropriate for ourselves all the while being able to have meaningful discussions amongst our fellow people.

Now pull your magic carpet square out because it is naptime  :P
Title: Re: Who is Practicing the IIH?
Post by: trismegistos on January 01, 2012, 01:07:35 PM

And should you find that offensive, just remember; I am not the one mashing randomly at my keyboard with the caps lock on.

Let me reveal to you the secrets of the Initiates in my writing of which the uninitiated thinks is random keyboard strokes.

YUNOMKSNSE
(http://images.cheezburger.com/completestore/2012/1/1/9430f7d2-6f26-4ca6-bb25-ae4ad048e70d.jpg)


I was just toying with him (or I suppose mocking him really, which wasn't very nice of me).  I don't mind if someone writes like a know it all so long as they are providing information, but I have to admit it was getting on my nerves writing cryptic messages which share absolutely nothing except how superior someone is and how everyone else is a pion who is unworthy of anything but a miserable mundane life.

I see he deleted all his cool coded writing though.

Title: Re: Who is Practicing the IIH?
Post by: Jordana Divinorum on January 01, 2012, 02:49:00 PM
I get what you guy are saying.  There are no "perfect" studies.  I'm not sure why scientists would be opposed to proving a "magical" feat is possible or not.  If it is possible, then it is simply part of the natural world, although rare to find.  I see no motivation for a scientist to cover up results of new human abilities.  It's the job of a scientist to uncover the truth.

Quote
And there's a reason for this; history. Scientists were very influential in proving that many superstitions were invalid, and thus they came to the conclusion that ALL metaphysical believes are superstitions, and continually try to tell society so.

I'm not sure what you mean.  If there are some metaphysical beliefs that are true, then the evidence should speak for itself.  If there is no evidence, why is it wrong to label such beliefs as "superstition?"  If I claim that slapping myself in the face can cause it to rain in Japan, shouldn't I show some type of evidence before it's adopted as the truth?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=madoDvtKEes
They performed tests in this show and the scientist didn't try to mess with the results.
For example, a themometer or sensors can be used to see if someone can contol their body heat or the temperature of the room.  A scale could always be used to see if a person could make their body lighter or heavier with the air or earth element.  I'm trying to be an open minded as possible.  I think anything is possible, but I'm curious as to why magic only seems possible in the absence of observers.  The man in the video is able to perform for a television crew and a scientist. 
Title: Re: Who is Practicing the IIH?
Post by: mrblack on January 01, 2012, 10:00:27 PM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=madoDvtKEes
They performed tests in this show and the scientist didn't try to mess with the results.
For example, a themometer or sensors can be used to see if someone can contol their body heat or the temperature of the room.  A scale could always be used to see if a person could make their body lighter or heavier with the air or earth element.  I'm trying to be an open minded as possible.  I think anything is possible, but I'm curious as to why magic only seems possible in the absence of observers.  The man in the video is able to perform for a television crew and a scientist. 

I'm just trying to understand what you want to test in magick, what fuels magick or what is magick in general?
What kind of tests available right now would you think possible to "gauge" what magick is?
Magick itself is as broad as it can be, we would need some massive work to be able to "test" all of it.

For example, lets take Low Magick - which is basically getting results with magick.
What kind of tests do we run on that? If we take a study of, AIRR lets say, and if their practitioners provide more
positives then negative - would that suffice that magick works?
Title: Re: Who is Practicing the IIH?
Post by: Jordana Divinorum on January 01, 2012, 11:05:19 PM
I was thinking of testing magick in a similar fashion to the video.  Looking at if magick can alter the physical universe instantly.  For example, making your body hotter, colder, lighter, heavier with the elements.  Or having a room hotter or colder with the elements.  Things like that which are found in IIH.  It would be a lot harder to test low magic.  Almost as hard as testing a superstition like 7 years of bad luck for breaking a mirror.  But if someone says they can raise or lower the temperature of the room, or light a candle with their mind, I think that's more straight forward in terms of testing. 
Title: Re: Who is Practicing the IIH?
Post by: Steve on January 01, 2012, 11:35:15 PM
Quote
I'm not sure why scientists would be opposed to proving a "magical" feat is possible or not.
Religious beliefs are not only found in religion because "it's religion". That kind of thinking, whereby a person is reluctant to give up something they believe to be true, can be found in pretty much anyone on the planet. There's a lot of ego that goes into believing something, and having that belief turn out to be false (or even worse, having someone else lord it over you about how "you are wrong to believe in such-and-such") can cause a lot of otherwise openminded people into rather closeminded people. It seems to be a natural subconscious defense mechanism that even exists among scientists, whom we hold up to such high standards such that sometimes we forget that scientists are still humans with all of our flaws and problems. There are other reasons as well, for why people hold on to their believes rather than giving them up when shown actual facts and figures. You should be able to find courses at a college or university somewhere to study those reasons.

Quote
It's the job of a scientist to uncover the truth.
We typically hold the title of "Scientist" up to this standard, as we're constantly told how this standard is accurate, but in reality many scientists are paid to "determine" foregone conclusions based on what the-companies-who-hire-scientists want to "determine". Take the pharmaceutical companies as an example; lots of great things have come from them, but so have lots of placebo drugs and potentially dangerous drugs that could be made safer if the pharmaceuticals would make more money off it. And who develops all those drugs? The chemists. But who controls them? The companies.

Quote
If there are some metaphysical beliefs that are true, then the evidence should speak for itself.
It should, but it doesn't because people are quick to simply ignore the evidence and continue believing what they already believe. Except through magic, you can't force someone to change their beliefs and people have a strong sentimental attachment to their beliefs.

Quote
If I claim that slapping myself in the face can cause it to rain in Japan, shouldn't I show some type of evidence before it's adopted as the truth?
The problem here isn't with you showing evidence, it's in whether other people accept the evidence. You can put forth as much awesome evidence as you want, and each of the 7 billion people in the world have the inherent Right to simply disregard it and believe whatever they want to believe.

And at the very end of it, when there's so many people (who claim to be credible sources) who are saying that magic doesn't exist, to the point where it is taken "as a given" in our societies... the majority of people are going to believe that magic doesn't exist, regardless of what the facts and figures show. Monkey see, monkey do. Program a person from birth to believe that 1+1 = 3, and they will always believe that 1+1 = 3 even in the face of overwhelming evidence to the contrary.

EDIT: Also, a couple of other things. The video doesn't necessarily show "magic" so much as "possibly dead nerves" or "extreme-but-not-superhuman feat". The tests to showcase magic have been done, and done, and done. It's not that they're only possible in the event of non-observers, but that they get discounted and thrown aside when done in the face of observers, and then the failures are trumped up on poles and paraded around the perceptions of the masses.

"Low magic" is typically defined in terms of capability of manipulating reality in order to affect day-to-day events, whereas "High magic" is typically defined in terms of alternate realms of reality or things that happen "behind the scenes" (breaking mirrors is just superstition, rather than magic). So low magic would actually be easier to test, and raising/lowering temperatures would typically fall into low magic.

~Steve

“If you tell a lie big enough and keep repeating it, people will eventually come to believe it.” – Joseph Goebbels
Title: Re: Who is Practicing the IIH?
Post by: Jordana Divinorum on January 02, 2012, 12:06:06 AM
I understand what you're trying to say, but empirical evidence speaks for itself regardless if people accept it or not.  For example, the video I provided.  The man is connected to sensors that take his temperature and other vital signs.  If we were to conduct a test where a person made the temperature of the room change, and did that test over and over with the same results, we would then have empirical evidence.  The equipment used to measure the heat or whatever we're testing would prove that a physical change is taking place.  I've never heard of anyone rejecting what happened in the video I posted.  Probably because the Iceman can repeat his results over and over regardless of who is testing him. 

If a person is capable of raising the temperature in the room, he should be able to repeat the results over and over for different scientists or whoever wants to test him.  No one has ever done this, or anything like this, to my knowledge.  I'm only suggesting scientific studies because having someone on the David Letterman show light a candle with his thoughts wouldn't exactly be a controlled environment. 
Title: Re: Who is Practicing the IIH?
Post by: mrblack on January 02, 2012, 01:17:53 AM
Tibetan Buddhism is considered to be an eastern magickal tradition.

At the same time, neuroscientists using the latest technologies were challenging old assumptions about the relationship of brain and body. Psychologists were trying to account for abilities to change physical states (such as body temperature), as specifically demonstrated by individuals adept at meditation, when such influences on the body by the mind was thought impossible. Western science had emphasized external influences and was just beginning to investigate human life from the inside. So in various disciplines loosely grouped as mind sciences, some scientists were eager to experiment with more advanced meditation subjects, and they were ready to hear different points of view.

Several attractive and carefully edited books chronicle this unique journey, though each is also self-contained. Gentle Bridges: Conversations With the Dalai Lama on the Sciences of Mind (Shambhala; 272 pages; $17.95), edited by Jeremy Hayward and Francisco Varela, impressed me as a kind of crash course in contemporary mind sciences, while Consciousness at the Crossroads: Conversations With the Dalai Lama on Brain Science and Buddhism (Snow Lion; 183 pages; $15.95), edited by Zara Houshmand, Robert B. Livingston and B. Alan Wallace, most eloquently explains Buddhist thought, particularly in Alan Wallace's afterword. Healing Emotions: Conversations With the Dalai Lama on Mindfulness, Emotions and Health (Shambhala; 277 pages; $15.95), edited by Daniel Goleman, and Sleeping, Dreaming and Dying: An Exploration of Consciousness With the Dalai Lama (Wisdom Publications; 254 pages; $16.95), edited by Francisco J. Varela, delve into research in their respective subjects and pertinent Buddhist thought, while Visions of Compassion: Western Scientists and Tibetan Buddhists Examine Human Nature (Oxford University Press; 263 pages; $27.50), edited by Richard J. Davidson and Anne Harrington, investigates the growing scientific interest in altruism, empathy and the psychology of violence. All these titles turn out to be at the cutting edge of science in these decades.


http://articles.sfgate.com/2004-04-11/books/17419863_1_14th-dalai-lama-physicists-uc-berkeley

As well.....

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Buddhism_and_science

The reason I point these out is because the practices within IIH and Tibetan Buddhism is pretty close so if you're
looking for scientific research on the subject then feel free to jump in.

Even the video, Iceman accessing his "inner thermostat" sounded like a magickal technique to me.....  :wink:
As well, they never mentioned/did tests as to how he can do that - he was just able to do it. (unless the video
was incomplete?) To me, the video only clarified that he can get results consistently - not how he can do it.

Also check out the Skeptics Guide#73 podcast.
Title: Re: Who is Practicing the IIH?
Post by: Steve on January 02, 2012, 12:05:05 PM
Quote
No one has ever done this, or anything like this, to my knowledge.
Maybe you should gain a bit more knowledge ;) I don't know if any specific tests regarding the temperature of a room have been performed, though I doubt it as there would be a shit-ton of factors to try and control when you have living breathing heat-generator biomachines in that same room (ie, the temperature of the room should raise simply from the existence of the person/people), but there have been many many other studies where the results DO speak for themselves... if anyone would bother to read them. In other threads kobok has given Searcher (Searching?) links to exactly the kinds of experiments that you're now talking about (you might be able to find those links if you check the threads started by Searcher), but even without someone else giving you the links you should be able to find something about the scientific experiments that have been done by searching for them yourself.

They may not be plastered on the front of Scientific America, but they're not exactly relegated purely the bottom shelf of one researcher's old desk; they are available to find if you start searching. You can start here http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qw_O9Qiwqew if you'd actually like to see some evidence, rather than just continually asking "where is the evidence?" :)

~Steve
Title: Re: Who is Practicing the IIH?
Post by: Jordana Divinorum on January 02, 2012, 06:28:27 PM
Steve: Thanks for the link.  I don't think measuring the temperature in a room would be that hard.  They were able to do tests on the Iceman in freezing cold water.  I'm sure a competent scientist would know how to compensate for a person being in the room.  Or the magician could raise the temperature of the room next to him.  Or.. he could lower the temperature in the room, or light a candle, etc.  I'll definitely check out the links you provided.
Title: Re: Who is Practicing the IIH?
Post by: mrblack on January 02, 2012, 06:57:01 PM
Out of curiosity, what editions are people working with?
I've been working with the Ruggeberg edition till recently when I finally fully switched
to the Merkur edition.
Title: Re: Who is Practicing the IIH?
Post by: Searching on January 02, 2012, 08:06:02 PM
An experiment is (or many many experiments are) run by scientists, who document their efforts the same as they would any other experiment. After they're done, they publish their findings the same as always. After this is done, someone else entirely, who had nothing to do with the experiments yet who claims to have some sort of authority on the matter (whether claiming to be scientists, or professors, or studious persons of whatever background, or stage magicians), comes along and seem to cast so much "doubt" on the experiments, through nothing more than offering alternative explanations or outright lying about things that supposedly happened during the experiments, that society at large listens to the naysayers and let the matter be swept from their minds. Scientists found Facts; disbelievers made Claims. Yet it is the loudest voice, not the most accurate voice, which controls the perceptions of society.

The problem isn't so much that there are skeptics- the problem is that we have no way of verifying Nina Kulagina's experiments in the modern day for the variables that these modern skeptics point out.

There's nothing inherently wrong with skepticism.

Guys like Randi and other former stage magicians turned paranormal investigator providing prize money for proof made a very good living deceiving people professionally. They know the tricks that those uneducated in the field, whether they be your average person or even professional scientists, might not catch. There are very crafty people out there, and there are some things that if you haven't been taught, you just won't get. Things which may be counter-intuitive. Things you might THINK you would catch, but you don't.

In that sense, Randi and company provide a very valuable service, and we should learn as much as we can from them. If you want to know truth, it helps to know the myriad of ways you can be deceived.

So there is nothing inherently wrong with them looking at a case study or a scientific study and saying "well here's how I could think of a way to fake this. If I can think of a way, it's possible they thought of the same or similar way."

The problem is that Nina Kulagina isn't around to back up her claims under NEW scientific conditions which are vetted by the skeptics who want to eliminate the variables that they see.

The problem is that, even then, Nina Kulagina had health issues which prevented researchers from going to certain lengths.

And the problem is that, to date, there isn't anyone who is willing to go through the rigorous process of academic investigation.


It is a process and it is rigorous. Because something like telekinesis/psychokinesis completely contradicts the mainstream/popular understanding about what is possible in this universe and what it is possible for the human to perform.

So it needs to be understood that if someone comes up saying they can move things with their mind, if they have scientists claiming to back them, if they have popular media support, EVERYONE (generally speaking) is going to want to see for themselves, because, as far as "everyone" is concerned (again, speaking in a general, mainstream sense), PK is "impossible".

And it's going to take a LOT of work to overturn that idea in the mainstream.
Title: Re: Who is Practicing the IIH?
Post by: Searching on January 02, 2012, 08:18:59 PM
Quote
If I claim that slapping myself in the face can cause it to rain in Japan, shouldn't I show some type of evidence before it's adopted as the truth?
The problem here isn't with you showing evidence, it's in whether other people accept the evidence. You can put forth as much awesome evidence as you want, and each of the 7 billion people in the world have the inherent Right to simply disregard it and believe whatever they want to believe.

And then there's another problem that occurs with skeptics and metaphysical communities-

Skeptics go "what about variable X? Let's see an experiment that tests for variable X"

And the metaphysical community goes "variable X is irrelevant, you should accept what we've already given you".

Doesn't take a psychic to predict that unless you address the concerns that people have, they aren't going to believe you  :wink: and if you continue to ignore variable X, guess what the rallying cry of the skeptics is going to be? You guessed it: variable X.

Part and parcel of overturning long long term beliefs is, well, doing the legwork of addressing what people are going to be worried about. If you can't do that, well, don't whine about nobody believing you because, really, you should have seen it coming.

but there have been many many other studies where the results DO speak for themselves... if anyone would bother to read them. In other threads kobok has given Searcher (Searching?) links to exactly the kinds of experiments that you're now talking about (you might be able to find those links if you check the threads started by Searcher),

Searching.  :)

I thought I had the old links somewhere, I'll try and find them later. The conversations were in the psi section though, if anyone wants to go through and look for them.

But the most compelling studies that I've seen (to the best that I recall) weren't about a single individual doing amazing feats of PK and astounding researchers. It was large numbers of people performing really small amounts of PK on random number generators, and when taken altogether, made people say that the chance of all of this happening on the scale it happened was unlikely, so something must be happening.

Criticism centered on two things-
1) that the evidence was a statistical analysis of several disparate studies
and
2) some of the studies had issues with procedure (but NOT all), so the critics removed some studies from the pool

The critics combined those, removing experiments they had issues with (but keeping experiments that they agreed had solid procedures) and performing their own math, and found that the findings were not out of the ordinary.


At least, that's from what I recall.

If anyone is looking for a study where some magician is out lighting stuff on fire, or floating stuff around the room, or reading the minds of researchers.... I haven't seen it, and I don't think it exists.

And, you know... I've been "searching" for a while.... :)
Title: Re: Who is Practicing the IIH?
Post by: Steve on January 02, 2012, 11:07:07 PM
Quote
The problem isn't so much that there are skeptics- the problem is that we have no way of verifying Nina Kulagina's experiments in the modern day for the variables that these modern skeptics point out.
The problem isn't that there are skeptics, no, but when skeptics become very vocal disbelievers who completely ignore scientific studies, then they definately become a problem. You can't verify nina kulagina's experiments for yourself and therefore they're invalid? Bullshit :P The scientists who studied her TOOK INTO ACCOUNT all of the arguments that randi et al try to use to debunk her. The scientists checked for trickery and designed several of the experiments that you can watch in the videos in order to remove exactly those kinds of cheats that randi and them want to believe she used. The problem here is that 40 scientists studied her and all came to fairly similar conclusions, and then one NON-scientist comes along with an opinion and we should believe him when he clearly hasn't even watched the videos or studied up on the experimental procedures? Fuck that. I will trust the 40 scientists over the one naysayer (if he JUST brought the questions to bear then he would be a skeptic, but he went steps further and used those questions in a rhetorical sense to basically call those scientists bumbling idiots and called the entire scientific process a sham).

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There's nothing inherently wrong with skepticism.
If we were dealing only with skepticism, then you'd be right. But we're also dealing with people who refuse to see the truth and who parade about their own false notions that science is now proving wrong. You know what that makes them instead of skeptics? Delusional.

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Guys like Randi and other former stage magicians turned paranormal investigator providing prize money for proof made make a very good living deceiving people professionally.
You think people like Randi have stopped deceiving people? They're not paranormal investigators, because investigators would actually care about what's going on. Randi will never admit that the paranormal exists because he believes it does not and is unwilling to change this belief.

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They know the tricks that those uneducated in the field, whether they be your average person or even professional scientists, might not catch.
And there's the Great Lie that these so-called stage-magicians-turned-investigators keep pushing in order to give themselves a false authority into the matter. Scientists know how to catch many stage magic tricks, and they have caught quite a number. What you might not know is that it was scientists who, for a very long time, ran the forefront of the crusade in catching stage-magicians who claimed to have real supernatural powers Sure, scientists can be fooled some times, they are human after all, but you know what the biggest difference between scientists who are running experiments are, compared to Randi who is running his mouth? The scientists are actually involved in experiments, whereas Randi merely hears about them from afar and tries to give his "expert" opinion into why the experiments are always flawed.

Also, Randi is ONE stage magician. The weight of his words do NOT out-match the weight of many many scientists.

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So there is nothing inherently wrong with them looking at a case study or a scientific study and saying "well here's how I could think of a way to fake this. If I can think of a way, it's possible they thought of the same or similar way."
And yes, actually, there is something inherently wrong with that: they haven't given me any reason whatsoever to believe them when they make such claims. They can claim that the moon is closer to the sun than it is to the earth, and you'll stop to question it, but when you actually look at the experiments/facts you'll see that those people are talking out of their asses.

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The problem is that Nina Kulagina isn't around to back up her claims under NEW scientific conditions which are vetted by the skeptics who want to eliminate the variables that they see.
We've been over this time and again. The scientists of the time DID account for those supposed variables. They checked for strings, they used non-magnetic materials, they brought their own objects for her to move, the scientists had machines to measure various things, etc etc etc. None of those factors have gone unchecked, and you and Randi have both been unable to provide any other standards that weren't already checked. Thus, her tests are NOT invalidated by your lack of knowledge and lack of desire to learn more about the studies.

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The problem is that, even then, Nina Kulagina had health issues which prevented researchers from going to certain lengths.
Not quite. She had health issues which forced her to stop participating in experiments. They already had her do many amazing feats on camera, in controlled environments, and with controls in place to defeat stage-magic.

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And the problem is that, to date, there isn't anyone who is willing to go through the rigorous process of academic investigation.
Can you fucking blame them when every popularized show out there that delves into the paranormal always comes back and makes the people who believe in metaphysics look like idiots? What's the point of going on national television just to have all the good stuff edited out and have the very people who invited you to the show call you names and slander you?

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So it needs to be understood that if someone comes up saying they can move things with their mind, if they have scientists claiming to back them, if they have popular media support, EVERYONE (generally speaking) is going to want to see for themselves, because, as far as "everyone" is concerned (again, speaking in a general, mainstream sense), PK is "impossible".
So what if you have two of the three? "if someone comes up saying they can move things with their mind, if they have scientists claiming to back them, if they have popular media support". Do we suddenly not believe the person when the scientists disagree with the media? Who are you believing when you have to wait until media supports the idea before you'll accept it?

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Skeptics go "what about variable X? Let's see an experiment that tests for variable X"

And the metaphysical community goes "variable X is irrelevant, you should accept what we've already given you".
Yeah, but it's not the metaphysical community which are doing the experiments. Scientists are taking all of these variables into account. Have you been looking into the links that kobok gave you so long ago? Which variables are still being unaccounted for? Until you can answer that question with absolute specifics (ie, "they're not controlling for potential electrical interference caused by the lighting system. AND this is relevant because it could affect the supposed randon-number generation of RNG machines"), AND NOT GUESSES about what "might" not have been accounted for, then there's no point in continuing to bring the point up.

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Doesn't take a psychic to predict that unless you address the concerns that people have, they aren't going to believe you
Doesn't take a psychic to realize that people will only-ever-always believe whatever they want to believe in anyway, regardless of what reality actually is like. Did you know there are people who still think Elvis is alive?

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Part and parcel of overturning long long term beliefs is, well, doing the legwork of addressing what people are going to be worried about.
150 years of scientific experiments into the supernatural, with more than abundant significant results regardless of the era, means the legwork is already done a hundred times over.

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If you can't do that, well, don't whine about nobody believing you because, really, you should have seen it coming.
I don't give a shit about them not believing me because I already know/believe they're not going to. I'm trying to explain to YOU that the problems you keep bringing up have already been taking into account by the scientific community while they continue to replicate significant results time and again.

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The critics combined those, removing experiments they had issues with (but keeping experiments that they agreed had solid procedures) and performing their own math, and found that the findings were not out of the ordinary.
I'm sorry, where did this happen? I've heard the exact opposite from scientists such as kobok, dean radin, various authors, etc. Who, and please tell me it's not those fucking wanna-be-scientist stage magicians, redid the math after removing experiments from the pool in order to come out to normal numbers? And secondly, WHY did they remove each study? Just claiming something like "oh, those had poor criteria" without giving really good reasons why is a slimy tactic that at least a couple of people have been caught doing in order to just remove what actually were good experiments (and the other side of that occurred as well, where some experimenters wanted to show results so badly that they removed people from the experiment who were receiving low scores).

~Steve
Title: Re: Who is Practicing the IIH?
Post by: trismegistos on January 03, 2012, 12:57:44 AM
I think people have this misconception of "If it doesn't show up on the first page of google, such a thing must not exist."

As if every scientific study is right on the internet, not to mention that 99% of the internet doesn't even come up on search engines.  See deep web.  Whenever I've tried looking up studies that verify magic I have very little luck.

I think a good book to read is vol. 1 of Isis Unveiled.  When you get to "meteor cat" you will see just how far people will go in order to deny something that they can't explain or doesn't fit into their view of the world.
Title: Re: Who is Practicing the IIH?
Post by: Jordana Divinorum on January 03, 2012, 01:42:14 PM
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I think people have this misconception of "If it doesn't show up on the first page of google, such a thing must not exist."

As if every scientific study is right on the internet, not to mention that 99% of the internet doesn't even come up on search engines.  See deep web.  Whenever I've tried looking up studies that verify magic I have very little luck.

It only took me about 10 seconds to find that video on the Iceman.  The discovery channel did a whole episode on him.  I'm a believer in magick, but I can't expect anyone else to think the things in Initiation into Hermetics are possible when there is no evidence.  If Wim Hof (the iceman) can be featured in Sciencedaily and the Discovery Channel, I think someone that is able to change the temperature of a room or light a candle with their mind would be able to as well.  The iceman can only change his body's response to heat/cold/bacteria, but a magician can change things OUTSIDE his body.  I'd love to see a whole episode of a guy lighting candles with his mind.

Article on immunse response:
http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2011/04/110422090203.htm

Commercial:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4sSa3Gt0k7E
Title: Re: Who is Practicing the IIH?
Post by: trismegistos on January 03, 2012, 03:11:48 PM
The thing is that doing things like lighting a candle would only happen at higher levels or if you were to be very one sided.  The hermetic magician doesn't do those exercises in order to be able to light candles, but simply so that he has enough control over the elements to serve in his purpose of using them as stepping stones toward God Union.  The one who can perform amazing acts of thaumaturgy has already reached quite an advanced level, and has an understanding that "proving" something doesn't put a person at a level of evolution necessary to climb the ladder to God.  My Teachers are able to perform feats of thaumaturgy, I have had a condition that takes months to heal (from prior experience with it) be gone in 4 days after having hands laid upon the ailment in my arm, but even for their own students it is not something that they just do on a regular basis, it is more of a reward for the student (not the healings, but external things I won't mention here).  Aspirants are very easily corrupted by the idea of power instead of what the real use of such control is, evolution.

Take it how you will, take it as some kind of cop out, but to the Mage he just simply doesn't care if people think influencing physical reality is possible because that's not what such practices are about at all. 

Take nuclear reactions for example.  In it's noble and just use it can create vast amounts of power to supply whole cities.  Just because it also so happens to be able to destroy miles and miles of civilization via an atomic bomb doesn't mean that is it's primary use.  The magician recognizes this, and he uses his control of Nature for his noble purpose of evolving himself so that he can aid man, and not to be a circus performer to wow people and prove such power exists, he holds his science as very sacred and holy, and thanks God for allowing him to have such control so that he may become alike to God.

Heck, look directly at God.  Omnipotent and yet there is massive suffering in the world.  It is because God knows exactly what is necessary for his creation, and likewise the magician in God-consciousness knows that proof will not suddenly enlighten mankind, but that man must come to the path on his own at the proper time.  Even those yogis etc. who have shown certain feats, it is almost always swept under the rug, scientists hate when they can't even think of a hypothesis to explain something, afterall these men are the pinnacle of human intelligence right?


Just my take on the matter.
Title: Re: Who is Practicing the IIH?
Post by: Melchizedek on January 04, 2012, 02:17:40 PM
The more that you meditate on the introduction part of IIH, the more it will be given you too see that all of this is real. The more that you ignore meditating on the introduction part, the less you will see that all of it is real.

Until you reach the point, where you are doubting all of it, because your not sure about any of it anymore. You can only regain your confidence, by reading the intro, over and over again indefinitely.

If not, you'll be doomed to frustration, doubt and anxiety about commiting yourself to IIH
Title: Re: Who is Practicing the IIH?
Post by: mrblack on January 04, 2012, 02:39:30 PM
@Jordana

What do you think of the video about John Chang?
http://youtu.be/bAV5avfDBiw
Title: Re: Who is Practicing the IIH?
Post by: Searching on January 04, 2012, 09:42:07 PM
You can't verify nina kulagina's experiments for yourself and therefore they're invalid? Bullshit

Part of the scientific method involves verification and repeatability of experiments by third parties.

If there is someone who has developed a theory as to how someone can fake an experiment given the set of protocols that the experiment has, then, well, part of the method of scientific inquiry demands that a study be done which can account for that variable, to see if telekinetic results would still be had.

But since Nina Kulagina isn't around anymore, we can't test for those variables which certain professional tricksters have cited, now can we?

So what we have left is someone who's vetted by a lot of people as being legit (though keep in mind that just because a lot of people agree, doesn't mean they're right- the fallacious argumentum ad populum), while at the same time there are variables at play that haven't been tested for.

Throw in the fact that psychic phenomena are extremely rare in daily life. Even people who train to get them don't always get what they're after, and even people who claim to have them don't seem to use them in any well known way.

So it's not very hard to see why Randi wins more people to the side of "non-believers" than Kulagina wins to the side of "believers".

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The scientists who studied her TOOK INTO ACCOUNT all of the arguments that randi et al try to use to debunk her. The scientists checked for trickery and designed several of the experiments that you can watch in the videos in order to remove exactly those kinds of cheats that randi and them want to believe she used. The problem here is that 40 scientists studied her and all came to fairly similar conclusions, and then one NON-scientist comes along with an opinion and we should believe him when he clearly hasn't even watched the videos or studied up on the experimental procedures? Fuck that. I will trust the 40 scientists over the one naysayer (if he JUST brought the questions to bear then he would be a skeptic, but he went steps further and used those questions in a rhetorical sense to basically call those scientists bumbling idiots and called the entire scientific process a sham).

I, for one, certainly don't approve of the manner in which Mr. Randi goes about browbeating "believers". But I try to keep in mind that he is a professional in the business of fooling people for a living. A professional in getting someone to look at a scenario, and completely miss what's going on.

There are plenty of schools of study which, if one is not properly instructed, can completely blindside you with things you never would have expected.

So, take from that what you will. Professional analysts, or a professional at fooling analysts?

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What you might not know is that it was scientists who, for a very long time, ran the forefront of the crusade in catching stage-magicians who claimed to have real supernatural powers Sure, scientists can be fooled some times, they are human after all, but you know what the biggest difference between scientists who are running experiments are, compared to Randi who is running his mouth? The scientists are actually involved in experiments, whereas Randi merely hears about them from afar and tries to give his "expert" opinion into why the experiments are always flawed.

You might not know that scientists were also at the forefront of studying Uri Geller, claiming that he was a legitimate psychic.You know who was at the forefront of exposing THAT psychic? Oh, right, James Randi. Huh.

You just say that scientists can be fooled, so wouldn't it make even MORE sense to listen to the claims of people who make their living fooling people??????

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Also, Randi is ONE stage magician. The weight of his words do NOT out-match the weight of many many scientists.

He's not the only one offering money....

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_prizes_for_evidence_of_the_paranormal (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_prizes_for_evidence_of_the_paranormal)

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So there is nothing inherently wrong with them looking at a case study or a scientific study and saying "well here's how I could think of a way to fake this. If I can think of a way, it's possible they thought of the same or similar way."
And yes, actually, there is something inherently wrong with that: they haven't given me any reason whatsoever to believe them when they make such claims.

Right, well, sorry being a professional trickster isn't credible enough for you when it comes to thinking up ways to rig an experiment....

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Can you fucking blame them when every popularized show out there that delves into the paranormal always comes back and makes the people who believe in metaphysics look like idiots? What's the point of going on national television just to have all the good stuff edited out and have the very people who invited you to the show call you names and slander you?

Know how much money the cast of Jersey Shore makes?

A shit ton more money than the average American.

Add to that the ability to show that psychic phenomena are real? (assuming the starring cast are legitimate)

Yeah, I can't think of any reason.......

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Doesn't take a psychic to realize that people will only-ever-always believe whatever they want to believe in anyway, regardless of what reality actually is like.

Right, that's why trivia is so popular, because people like going "oh hey, that's a fun fact which runs counter to popular opinion, I'm going to disregard it..." :rolleyes:

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Did you know there are people who still think Elvis is alive?

Did you know there are people who still believe you can move things with your mind? (to add some perspective, I'm one of them)

Walk down to the nearest university physics department and say "psychic phenomena are real, and science has proven it". See the response you'll get (to add some perspective, I've done it, with the evidence that Kobok sent to me oh so long ago)

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150 years of scientific experiments into the supernatural, with more than abundant significant results regardless of the era, means the legwork is already done a hundred times over.

Right. That's why everyone believes that psychic phenomena are real and vetted by science and that everyone can train to do them.

I'm surprised. Global warming is STILL making more of a splash than psychic phenomena. Guess it's not as cool as the weather...

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I'm sorry, where did this happen?

That was a summary of the research that Kobok provided me. You were in those threads, I'm sure you can find it if you go back and look.....

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Who, and please tell me it's not those fucking wanna-be-scientist stage magicians, redid the math after removing experiments from the pool in order to come out to normal numbers?

As I recall, it was Ray Hyman http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ray_Hyman (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ray_Hyman)

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And secondly, WHY did they remove each study?

The details are in the study that Kobok provided. He's done enough legwork posting it to the thread. I'm not going to jump through hoops to feed it to you on a silver platter. You can put it some effort and find it yourself :)

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Just claiming something like "oh, those had poor criteria" without giving really good reasons why is a slimy tactic that at least a couple of people have been caught doing in order to just remove what actually were good experiments (and the other side of that occurred as well, where some experimenters wanted to show results so badly that they removed people from the experiment who were receiving low scores).

Wow, pulling a bit of a James Randi there, huh? How about you actually read the reports, rather than providing us with your ignorant opinion just from casually hearing a summary of a study from a random person on the internet, hm?
Title: Re: Who is Practicing the IIH?
Post by: Melchizedek on January 04, 2012, 11:21:13 PM
Even if you have proof that magic or this system of magic is real, such as having some guy on You Tube perform an amazing feat using magic, it wouldn't benefit you in your training one bit.

Even if there were scores of people lighting candles on fire with their minds, or raising the temp in a room and you could see with your own eyes, "I don't believe this really works", it still won't work for you.

You either take the journey and discover it for yourself or you fail, there exists no in between.
Title: Re: Who is Practicing the IIH?
Post by: Melchizedek on January 04, 2012, 11:30:34 PM
There isn't any people who have completed this training properly, that's why there exists no proof.
Title: Re: Who is Practicing the IIH?
Post by: trismegistos on January 04, 2012, 11:33:34 PM
Even if you have proof that magic or this system of magic is real, such as having some guy on You Tube perform an amazing feat using magic, it wouldn't benefit you in your training one bit.

Even if there were scores of people lighting candles on fire with their minds, or raising the temp in a room and you could see with your own eyes, "I don't believe this really works", it still won't work for you.

You either take the journey and discover it for yourself or you fail, there exists no in between.

Holy hell, a post from Melchizedek I actually agree with for once.  Proof doesn't make magicians, extreme devotion to practice (2-4 hours a day, upwards of 6-8 even at later levels) does.  Here and there will never cut it, a half hour of meditation 4 times a week will yield results maybe in 40 years.
Title: Re: Who is Practicing the IIH?
Post by: Melchizedek on January 04, 2012, 11:46:28 PM
I hate to say it, but I really believe that there is no one on the face of the earth, who really understands IIH. If there was, it would be on-line and he or she would be famous.

I say this, because to have someone skilled in these type of healing arts, would be a blessing that should be shared with all of mankind.

It's sad that this is so. Maybe I'm wrong, but I don't think I am.

I've seen people lie on beds of nails and walk through fire, but that's not really beneficial to anyone. I've seen some guy floating in the air.

A guy like David Blaine or Criss Angel probaly are skimming the surface on the real magic, unless there using trick photography. I don't know, you would have to see them in person
Title: Re: Who is Practicing the IIH?
Post by: Akenu on January 05, 2012, 01:19:14 AM
Even if you have proof that magic or this system of magic is real, such as having some guy on You Tube perform an amazing feat using magic, it wouldn't benefit you in your training one bit.

Even if there were scores of people lighting candles on fire with their minds, or raising the temp in a room and you could see with your own eyes, "I don't believe this really works", it still won't work for you.

You either take the journey and discover it for yourself or you fail, there exists no in between.

Holy hell, a post from Melchizedek I actually agree with for once.  Proof doesn't make magicians, extreme devotion to practice (2-4 hours a day, upwards of 6-8 even at later levels) does.  Here and there will never cut it, a half hour of meditation 4 times a week will yield results maybe in 40 years.

I do agree this is maybe Melchizedek's first good post, but I don't certainly agree with your commentary. Meditating half hour 4 times a week can be the same fruitful to someone as hours of meditation daily, this part is pretty individual.
Title: Re: Who is Practicing the IIH?
Post by: trismegistos on January 05, 2012, 01:20:48 AM
Join the Divine Science and then once you complete the probationer class, go visit the Teachers.  Your faith that these people exist will be restored.  The class is free and you can stay or leave after that, but I guarantee you stay if you visit them.

edit:  To Melchezidek
Title: Re: Who is Practicing the IIH?
Post by: LeZebra on January 05, 2012, 02:23:00 AM
Join the Divine Science and then once you complete the probationer class, go visit the Teachers.  Your faith that these people exist will be restored.  The class is free and you can stay or leave after that, but I guarantee you stay if you visit them.

edit:  To Melchezidek

I thought after a certain point the classes weren't free.
Title: Re: Who is Practicing the IIH?
Post by: LeZebra on January 05, 2012, 02:28:41 AM
I hate to say it, but I really believe that there is no one on the face of the earth, who really understands IIH. If there was, it would be on-line and he or she would be famous.

I say this, because to have someone skilled in these type of healing arts, would be a blessing that should be shared with all of mankind.

It's sad that this is so. Maybe I'm wrong, but I don't think I am.

I've seen people lie on beds of nails and walk through fire, but that's not really beneficial to anyone. I've seen some guy floating in the air.

A guy like David Blaine or Criss Angel probaly are skimming the surface on the real magic, unless there using trick photography. I don't know, you would have to see them in person

I've heard nothing but good things about Rawn Clark and his experience with IIH.
Title: Re: Who is Practicing the IIH?
Post by: kobok on January 05, 2012, 04:04:04 AM
But I try to keep in mind that [Mr. Randi] is a professional in the business of fooling people for a living. A professional in getting someone to look at a scenario, and completely miss what's going on.

This certainly does seem to be his approach to most of parapsychology.
Title: Re: Who is Practicing the IIH?
Post by: Akenu on January 05, 2012, 04:07:05 AM
But I try to keep in mind that [Mr. Randi] is a professional in the business of fooling people for a living. A professional in getting someone to look at a scenario, and completely miss what's going on.

This certainly does seem to be his approach to most of parapsychology.


I would say that he is not really trying to expose parapsychology. I have seen few of the challenges and I think I know why "being famous" is one of the requirements to be able to undergo the challenge. Randi doesn't really want to find some psychic person and hand over his money.
But he certainly wants to expose frauds and help people get rid of them and that's how I see his show. As the fraud exposure. Do you want to get to Randi's challenge? Be fraud.
Title: Re: Who is Practicing the IIH?
Post by: Searching on January 05, 2012, 01:00:19 PM
Even if you have proof that magic or this system of magic is real, such as having some guy on You Tube perform an amazing feat using magic, it wouldn't benefit you in your training one bit.

Even if there were scores of people lighting candles on fire with their minds, or raising the temp in a room and you could see with your own eyes, "I don't believe this really works", it still won't work for you.

You either take the journey and discover it for yourself or you fail, there exists no in between.

Proof doesn't make magicians, extreme devotion to practice (2-4 hours a day, upwards of 6-8 even at later levels) does.  Here and there will never cut it, a half hour of meditation 4 times a week will yield results maybe in 40 years.

And what's the best way to foster that?

Public evidence that such feats are possible.

Why do you think so many people spend thousands of hours and thousands of dollars training in sports from the time they are in middle school?

Because they KNOW that they can get incredibly lucrative careers in professional sports.

And how do they know that playing with a ball will get them such results?

They can turn on the tv and see it happen. They can watch the replays on youtube.

No wonder so many people quit a metaphysical practice after a couple of years, months, or weeks (or can't hardly stay motivated to keep diligently practicing). Because no matter where they look they don't see any guarantee that any of their practice is going to get them anything!

Until you get to a certain point where you can get something, sure, you just gotta believe that it'll work. But at what point do you look at what you're doing and say "how much time have I put into this vs other things I could be doing? And what guarantee of results am I getting from this?"

And to be honest, it ain't hard to see how people running a cost benefit analysis could come up with far more reasons to stop a metaphysical practice, than start one.

But some people are just crazy :P (me included)
Title: Re: Who is Practicing the IIH?
Post by: Searching on January 05, 2012, 01:11:37 PM
I have seen few of the challenges and I think I know why "being famous" is one of the requirements to be able to undergo the challenge.
...
But he certainly wants to expose frauds and help people get rid of them and that's how I see his show. As the fraud exposure.

I think this is an important point to consider.

His game seems more about to prevent frauds from taking advantage of people, and he aims to do so on a larger scale. From what I have heard (yeah yeah, hearsay) he used to accept pretty much all claims for investigation. But of course, everybody and their brother was applying thinking they were psychic. So he narrowed down the criteria.

He's probably done his own cost benefit analysis, and has decided that going after the big fish is a better use of time and resources than going after every small fish.

So people like Sylvia Browne are probably higher on his priority than a local psychic charging $25 for a palm reading.

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Do you want to get to Randi's challenge? Be fraud.

Want to get to Randi's challenge? Start the word going that you're an authentic psychic, and prove it. Local newspaper, tv, the internet. Not that hard to get the buzz going. If you've got the actual skill. And the follow through.
Title: Re: Who is Practicing the IIH?
Post by: trismegistos on January 05, 2012, 03:37:01 PM
Even if you have proof that magic or this system of magic is real, such as having some guy on You Tube perform an amazing feat using magic, it wouldn't benefit you in your training one bit.

Even if there were scores of people lighting candles on fire with their minds, or raising the temp in a room and you could see with your own eyes, "I don't believe this really works", it still won't work for you.

You either take the journey and discover it for yourself or you fail, there exists no in between.

Proof doesn't make magicians, extreme devotion to practice (2-4 hours a day, upwards of 6-8 even at later levels) does.  Here and there will never cut it, a half hour of meditation 4 times a week will yield results maybe in 40 years.

And what's the best way to foster that?

Public evidence that such feats are possible.

Why do you think so many people spend thousands of hours and thousands of dollars training in sports from the time they are in middle school?

Because they KNOW that they can get incredibly lucrative careers in professional sports.

And how do they know that playing with a ball will get them such results?

They can turn on the tv and see it happen. They can watch the replays on youtube.

No wonder so many people quit a metaphysical practice after a couple of years, months, or weeks (or can't hardly stay motivated to keep diligently practicing). Because no matter where they look they don't see any guarantee that any of their practice is going to get them anything!

Until you get to a certain point where you can get something, sure, you just gotta believe that it'll work. But at what point do you look at what you're doing and say "how much time have I put into this vs other things I could be doing? And what guarantee of results am I getting from this?"

And to be honest, it ain't hard to see how people running a cost benefit analysis could come up with far more reasons to stop a metaphysical practice, than start one.

But some people are just crazy :P (me included)


If I show you that magical power is real, you chase magical power.  Magical power only stems as a result from chasing God-Union, but my proof of power gives you zero interest in God Union, it just makes you chase the power that comes with God Union, but when gnosis/samadhi is attained, you have very little care of using such power EXCEPT in furthering the attainment of God Union or helping your fellow man.  Therfore, showing power is real does nothing to cultivate the desire for God-Union of which such power is merely a side effect, and not the goal.  

That is the problem, people lie to themselves.  They don't want God Union and liberation, they want power, and for that very reason they will attain neither, at least not to any impressive extent (as far as power goes).   If you were interested in God Union, you would care nothing for power or seeing it proven to pursue a spiritual path, you would be satisfied if you never developed a single power so long as you were slowly becoming more and more God-like.  Yogis develop powers, they call them siddhis.  People don't associate Yoga with magical feats even though they exist just as much in Yoga as they do in Magic.  Yet they don't go about saying "doing this cultivates this siddhi" because it is not how you achieve the Siddhi, you achieve the siddhi through your own evolution towards God Union, and not the other way around where striving to develop Siddhis cause evolution towards God Union.
Title: Re: Who is Practicing the IIH?
Post by: trismegistos on January 05, 2012, 03:43:32 PM
Join the Divine Science and then once you complete the probationer class, go visit the Teachers.  Your faith that these people exist will be restored.  The class is free and you can stay or leave after that, but I guarantee you stay if you visit them.

edit:  To Melchezidek

I thought after a certain point the classes weren't free.

You are correct, however the Probationer class is free, and upon it's completion one is allowed to visit the Teachers, and indeed are encouraged to so that they can decide what they want to do having more knowledge of what the system is about and what results it yields by seeing 2 incarnations of the teachings themselves.  It is said that the probationer class will help you decide if you want to pursue Theurgy or some other system, and that with the aspirant class you will know you want to pursue Theurgy, but the aspirant class will allow you to decide if you want to pursue it under the particular lineage of TDS or some other lineage.  The Aspirant Flow is what constitutes the actual school itself when you are "officially" a student, not that you are considered any lesser as an Aspirant really.
Title: Re: Who is Practicing the IIH?
Post by: Searching on January 05, 2012, 04:05:54 PM
Even if you have proof that magic or this system of magic is real, such as having some guy on You Tube perform an amazing feat using magic, it wouldn't benefit you in your training one bit.

Even if there were scores of people lighting candles on fire with their minds, or raising the temp in a room and you could see with your own eyes, "I don't believe this really works", it still won't work for you.

You either take the journey and discover it for yourself or you fail, there exists no in between.

Proof doesn't make magicians, extreme devotion to practice (2-4 hours a day, upwards of 6-8 even at later levels) does.  Here and there will never cut it, a half hour of meditation 4 times a week will yield results maybe in 40 years.

And what's the best way to foster that?

Public evidence that such feats are possible.

Why do you think so many people spend thousands of hours and thousands of dollars training in sports from the time they are in middle school?

Because they KNOW that they can get incredibly lucrative careers in professional sports.

And how do they know that playing with a ball will get them such results?

They can turn on the tv and see it happen. They can watch the replays on youtube.

No wonder so many people quit a metaphysical practice after a couple of years, months, or weeks (or can't hardly stay motivated to keep diligently practicing). Because no matter where they look they don't see any guarantee that any of their practice is going to get them anything!

Until you get to a certain point where you can get something, sure, you just gotta believe that it'll work. But at what point do you look at what you're doing and say "how much time have I put into this vs other things I could be doing? And what guarantee of results am I getting from this?"

And to be honest, it ain't hard to see how people running a cost benefit analysis could come up with far more reasons to stop a metaphysical practice, than start one.

But some people are just crazy :P (me included)


If I show you that magical power is real, you chase magical power.  Magical power only stems as a result from chasing God-Union, but my proof of power gives you zero interest in God Union, it just makes you chase the power that comes with God Union, but when gnosis/samadhi is attained, you have very little care of using such power EXCEPT in furthering the attainment of God Union or helping your fellow man.  Therfore, showing power is real does nothing to cultivate the desire for God-Union of which such power is merely a side effect, and not the goal.  

That is the problem, people lie to themselves.  They don't want God Union and liberation, they want power, and for that very reason they will attain neither, at least not to any impressive extent (as far as power goes).   If you were interested in God Union, you would care nothing for power or seeing it proven to pursue a spiritual path, you would be satisfied if you never developed a single power so long as you were slowly becoming more and more God-like.  Yogis develop powers, they call them siddhis.  People don't associate Yoga with magical feats even though they exist just as much in Yoga as they do in Magic.  Yet they don't go about saying "doing this cultivates this siddhi" because it is not how you achieve the Siddhi, you achieve the siddhi through your own evolution towards God Union, and not the other way around where striving to develop Siddhis cause evolution towards God Union.

Yes, yes.

"If you want it, you don't get it. If you don't want it, you'll get it, but never really care about using it."
Title: Re: Who is Practicing the IIH?
Post by: LeZebra on January 05, 2012, 05:41:08 PM
Join the Divine Science and then once you complete the probationer class, go visit the Teachers.  Your faith that these people exist will be restored.  The class is free and you can stay or leave after that, but I guarantee you stay if you visit them.

edit:  To Melchezidek

I thought after a certain point the classes weren't free.

You are correct, however the Probationer class is free, and upon it's completion one is allowed to visit the Teachers, and indeed are encouraged to so that they can decide what they want to do having more knowledge of what the system is about and what results it yields by seeing 2 incarnations of the teachings themselves.  It is said that the probationer class will help you decide if you want to pursue Theurgy or some other system, and that with the aspirant class you will know you want to pursue Theurgy, but the aspirant class will allow you to decide if you want to pursue it under the particular lineage of TDS or some other lineage.  The Aspirant Flow is what constitutes the actual school itself when you are "officially" a student, not that you are considered any lesser as an Aspirant really.

Ok so after the probationer class, the aspirant class/flow is not free.
Title: Re: Who is Practicing the IIH?
Post by: trismegistos on January 05, 2012, 08:26:09 PM
Yeah, but a 14 year old kid could come up with the money for the classes lol.
Title: Re: Who is Practicing the IIH?
Post by: Steve on January 05, 2012, 09:47:03 PM
Quote from: Searching
Quote from: Steve
You can't verify nina kulagina's experiments for yourself and therefore they're invalid? Bullshit
Part of the scientific method involves verification and repeatability of experiments by third parties.
And what experiments have you or Randi done in order to verify/invalidate any of these?

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If there is someone who has developed a theory as to how someone can fake an experiment given the set of protocols that the experiment has, then, well, part of the method of scientific inquiry demands that a study be done which can account for that variable, to see if telekinetic results would still be had.
No, fuck that. REASONABLE doubts and demans SHOULD be followed up with controls to eliminate those factors, but once those factors are controlled then harping on them again and again benefits noone. I can throw claims of doubt on gravity; does that make it any less real? NO. You need to learn the difference between making a claim of doubt, and that claim actually mattering.

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So what we have left is someone who's vetted by a lot of people as being legit (though keep in mind that just because a lot of people agree, doesn't mean they're right- the fallacious argumentum ad populum), while at the same time there are variables at play that haven't been tested for.
So once again, which factors have yet to be controlled? Name ONE.

I'll start:

1) Strings.
Controls in place to reduce/eliminate these factors:

-Nina was physically searched for strings by scientists.
-Putting bowls over the objects.
-Keeping her hands far away from the objects she was supposed to be moving, ie half-way across the table (a distance of a foot to two feet)
-On the fly, ie within a few seconds, changing which object, out of a tight cluster of objects, was supposed to move.

2) Magnets.
Controls:

-Once again, Nina was physically searched
-Non-magnetic materials, such as matches and cigarettes, which were provided by the testers, were used.
-Keeping her hands far away from the objects she was supposed to be moving, ie half-way across the table (a distance of a foot to two feet)
-On the fly, ie within a few seconds, changing which object, out of a tight cluster of objects, was supposed to move.

3) Static electricity.
Controls:

-Keeping her hands far away from the objects she was supposed to be moving, ie half-way across the table (a distance of a foot to two feet)
-On the fly, ie within a few seconds, changing which object, out of a tight cluster of objects, was supposed to move.

Any others?

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So it's not very hard to see why Randi wins more people to the side of "non-believers" than Kulagina wins to the side of "believers".
Yes, because of a known psychological activity whereby people who bitch/complain about things loudly tend to bring more weak-minded people under their wings because those people are afraid of drawing the attention/insults of the person who is complaining. The effect is magnified when the person isn't just complaining, but is being fairly rude.

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You might not know that scientists were also at the forefront of studying Uri Geller, claiming that he was a legitimate psychic.You know who was at the forefront of exposing THAT psychic? Oh, right, James Randi. Huh.
Oh, James Randi debunked Uri Geller, did he? How?

I've seen a lot of claims by Randi about how "Uri Geller is performing stage magic, not real magic" and note that Randi uses his favourite logical fallacy of "I can perform this feat with stage magic, therefore Uri used stage magic." But going over the wikipedia entry, the only point at which Randi was actually involved, in any real manner, in thwarting Uri Geller was in instructing the Tonight Show guy not to let Uri or his aides near the props that were going to be used in the show. Oh, and in conjunction with the UK Sun newspaper by counter-claiming that Uri's predictions of winning sports teams are wrong (I don't have the data on me, but I've seen several other people *prove* Randi to be a liar, so I'm not going to believe him at his word). Other than that, Randi is all claims.

You might not know it, but SOME scientists were convinced that Uri was the real deal: Russel Targ and Harold Puthoff, if those names ring a bell. Oh, and what's this? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uri_Geller#Scientific_testing If you read it carefully, you'll notice it's a big adult spat. Two scientists claim he's good; Randi claims they had terrible procedure; another scientist claims he's bad; the first two scientists claim the third scientist has terrible procedure. And then real critiques(!) of experimental procedures.

Oh, and then that last paragraph in the scientific testing where... a stage magician (check the citations) got Uri to perform and noticed no trickery? *Double checks that* Indeed, that is what it says.

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You just say that scientists can be fooled, so wouldn't it make even MORE sense to listen to the claims of people who make their living fooling people???
So you will listen to Mr Cox, who, unlike Randi, actually tested Uri?

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Also, Randi is ONE stage magician. The weight of his words do NOT out-match the weight of many many scientists.

He's not the only one offering money....
Hey hey, look at that. Something I've seen before. And I checked into a couple of them and found similar bullshit to what Randi's test was doing (control was purely in the hands of the people offering the money, offering no fairness nor real scientific controls to the people wanting to be tested, as well as claims by claimants of insulting demeanors in a few cases) so I didn't bother looking further. Please enlighten me as to the types of tests that have been failed and what makes those tests so air-tight proceduraly that we should accept them without counter-questioning them in the same manner that you do for real scientific tests :)

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Right, well, sorry being a professional trickster isn't credible enough for you when it comes to thinking up ways to rig an experiment....
1) They're not the only ones who can think up those methods, 2) There are many scientists who have a keen enough interest in stage magic to have actually gotten into it a bit *unlike Randi who has no scientific credentials what-so-ever*, and 3) the scientists actually do listen to good stage magicians; Randi is just an asshole who likes to spout off his own bullshit about how's he's so fucking important, without realizing that the scientists are taking the same critiques into account via other sources.

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Know how much money the cast of Jersey Shore makes?

A shit ton more money than the average American.

Add to that the ability to show that psychic phenomena are real? (assuming the starring cast are legitimate)

Yeah, I can't think of any reason.......
I don't know anything about Jersey Shore, and the quick scanning over of wikipedia doesn't list anything about psychic phenomenon. Please explain why this is relevant, because I honestly don't understand.

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Right, that's why trivia is so popular, because people like going "oh hey, that's a fun fact which runs counter to popular opinion, I'm going to disregard it..."
OR they disregard it if they're unwilling to accept it. Go back to the "what they want to believe in".

As an aside, for shits and giggles and out of pure curiosity, for a short while a few years back, I made up completely bald-faced lies and told them to people just to see if they'd believe me on my word alone, without even attempting to give any evidences or clarifications. Things like "did you know that the American President spent some time as a spy in Russia?" and got it all the way up to something like "Did you hear on the news last week that the American Government finally admitted to having long term communications with aliens?" before someone DIDN'T believe me on my word alone. So, No, you don't need to address the concerns that people have in order for them to believe you.

So, Randi can make up whatever claims he wants, I'd still rather look to the facts.

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Right. That's why everyone believes that psychic phenomena are real and vetted by science and that everyone can train to do them.

I'm surprised. Global warming is STILL making more of a splash than psychic phenomena. Guess it's not as cool as the weather...
Because science is not One Pool of Knowledge, but is a large smattering of "accepted theories, facts and experiments", with the Materialistic Scientists still having the largest mouthpieces in order to shovel their "accepted theories, facts and experiments" into the minds of whoever's listening. In fact, try a little experiment in telling a bald-faced lie: perpetuate the idea that ALL psychic phenomenon can be explained by electro-magnetic phenomenon, and then try to convince the same disbelievers in the potential for psychic phenomenon on the basis of explaining it via EMR. More people will be willing to believe this because it fits with their current World Model.

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That was a summary of the research that Kobok provided me. You were in those threads, I'm sure you can find it if you go back and look.....
As I recall, it was Ray Hyman http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ray_Hyman
If they were in those threads, then yes I can. Thank you.

Quote
Wow, pulling a bit of a James Randi there, huh? How about you actually read the reports, rather than providing us with your ignorant opinion just from casually hearing a summary of a study from a random person on the internet, hm?
Yes, pulling a Randi! And now to do something very UnRandi-like: I'm going to go find and read those reports! :P (If I can find them)


Quote from: Melchizedek
I hate to say it, but I really believe that there is no one on the face of the earth, who really understands IIH. If there was, it would be on-line and he or she would be famous.
I love to say this Mel, but not everything of value is 1) online, or 2) known to society at large.

Quote from: Searching
Yes, yes.

"If you want it, you don't get it. If you don't want it, you'll get it, but never really care about using it."
Yes ^_^ (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Af1OxkFOK18)

Quote from: trismegistos
Yeah, but a 14 year old kid could come up with the money for the classes lol.
Hopefully not by getting it from the parents' wallets XD

~Steve
Title: Re: Who is Practicing the IIH?
Post by: Searching on January 05, 2012, 10:34:16 PM
And what experiments have you or Randi done in order to verify/invalidate any of these?

Did you miss the part about Nina Kulagina not being around to do just that?

Unless you can point the way to another known telekinesis user that either myself or Randi can investigate, and who would actually be willing to, you know, demonstrate under certain conditions?

I'm not holding my breath. And you've made your opinion very clear about people "demanding" others "jump through hoops".

Quote
I've seen a lot of claims by Randi about how "Uri Geller is performing stage magic, not real magic" and note that Randi uses his favourite logical fallacy of "I can perform this feat with stage magic, therefore Uri used stage magic."

I think it's more along the lines of "I can think of ways to perform this feat using stage magic, let's check and make sure that this person isn't using trickery... oh, that's interesting, this person does not want to undergo an investigation... hmm, that's interesting.... I think it's far more likely that they are using some sort of trickery which is in line with our modern understanding of the physical world than it is that they are using some metaphysical phenomenon to accomplish such a feat. I consider it highly suspect that they refuse to accept any investigation as they go about letting people (literally) buy into their claims. I consider that highly suspect and it shoots up several red flags about fraud, and would highly discourage people from buying into this person as much as possible."

Of course, as people of the internet, we know how an original idea can get inflamed and blown out of proportion. Egos get involved. Randi, I believe, is certainly a prime example.

I think he starts from a legitimate place. Doesn't handle it too well on a personal level but... not inherently wrong.

As someone who started out being duped by a fraudulent martial artist, I got on board with investigating martial arts lineages and other claims before learning from any teachers. I didn't get into the whole game of publicly shaming or seeking to expose teachers. I thought it was a matter of education, learned a lot about culture, history, and things of that nature. And truth be told, there are a LOT of red flags that go up around the insular rhetorical strategies used by the metaphysical community which are the very same strategies used by fraudulent martial artists, and are also used by, in some extreme cases, cult leaders!

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But going over the wikipedia entry, the only point at which Randi was actually involved, in any real manner, in thwarting Uri Geller was in instructing the Tonight Show guy not to let Uri or his aides near the props that were going to be used in the show. Oh, and in conjunction with the UK Sun newspaper by counter-claiming that Uri's predictions of winning sports teams are wrong (I don't have the data on me, but I've seen several other people *prove* Randi to be a liar, so I'm not going to believe him at his word). Other than that, Randi is all claims.

You can actually watch that bit on youtube:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M9w7jHYriFo (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M9w7jHYriFo)

Quote
You might not know it, but SOME scientists were convinced that Uri was the real deal: Russel Targ and Harold Puthoff, if those names ring a bell. Oh, and what's this? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uri_Geller#Scientific_testing If you read it carefully, you'll notice it's a big adult spat. Two scientists claim he's good; Randi claims they had terrible procedure; another scientist claims he's bad; the first two scientists claim the third scientist has terrible procedure. And then real critiques(!) of experimental procedures.

Oh, and then that last paragraph in the scientific testing where... a stage magician (check the citations) got Uri to perform and noticed no trickery? *Double checks that* Indeed, that is what it says.

Oh, dang. Guess Uri Geller is the real deal. Fuck this shit. I'm off to be his disciple.

.............

Quote
so I didn't bother looking further.

Good for you. Make up your mind that something is bullshit, and then just write it all off.

Quote
Please enlighten me

*Steve hat on* I don't know who you think you are, that you can just demand that I tell you anything. Do some of your own work and investigate yourself.

*Steve hat off* *aggregate metaphysical community hat on* "Oh, you've done a lot of research you say, but you're still not buying it? Well you haven't done the right research. Oh, you have, have you? Well you obviously just aren't thinking logically, because the evidence is already there."

*aggregate metaphysical community hat off*

That kind of rhetoric will just drive you mad, won't it? :)

Quote
Quote
Know how much money the cast of Jersey Shore makes?

A shit ton more money than the average American.

Add to that the ability to show that psychic phenomena are real? (assuming the starring cast are legitimate)

Yeah, I can't think of any reason.......
I don't know anything about Jersey Shore, and the quick scanning over of wikipedia doesn't list anything about psychic phenomenon. Please explain why this is relevant, because I honestly don't understand.

You asked why anyone would want to go on television to basically be made fun of. Jersey Shore is basically as show where the cast looks like a bunch of morons. Really, the lowest common denominator of society. They make ridiculous amounts of money for getting wasted, having sex, waking up, getting wasted, looking like a bunch of idiots, waking up, getting wasted, etc etc etc etc.

So being the star of a reality show itself has its own monetary perks which would interest a lot of people. Even at the cost of looking like an idiot should the producers decide to get creative with what gets cut together. And there's no guarantee that would even happen.

Now on TOP of the monetary incentive, there is the added bonus, for someone with real skill and the actual desire to get people to know its real, the fact that, with attention focused on them, they could actually go about doing things which could get people looking at paranormal phenomena more seriously.

And once they reached that stage, they'd pretty much qualify to get Randi's Challenge, then the full social scrutiny would be on Randi, to ensure the fair treatment in front of a world wide audience.

And then that last part was sarcasm. Because, you know, that all sounds like a pretty sweet deal to me. But of course, it requires two things- 1) actual controllable, repeatable, ability and 2) the follow through to actually go through the steps necessary to elevate the paranormal from a fringe field to basically the center of the public spotlight.

And not everyone has those qualities.

Quote
As an aside, for shits and giggles and out of pure curiosity, for a short while a few years back, I made up completely bald-faced lies and told them to people just to see if they'd believe me on my word alone, without even attempting to give any evidences or clarifications. Things like "did you know that the American President spent some time as a spy in Russia?" and got it all the way up to something like "Did you hear on the news last week that the American Government finally admitted to having long term communications with aliens?" before someone DIDN'T believe me on my word alone. So, No, you don't need to address the concerns that people have in order for them to believe you.

We've had this discussion before, and there are other mitigating factors.

Things like previous credibility, the likelihood of that story being true based on past experiences or other outside knowledge, how invested people are in the topic, whether they have readily available means to fact check your information, whether the situation calls for it (are you in a casual dinner, or sitting on a computer right in front of google?), etc etc etc.

And no, I'm not going to get on that merry-go-round with you again. I'm sure by this point you can figure out what my response to that statement will be, just as well as I probably can figure out what yours are going to be (though, much to my regret, not due to psychic ability! Just the fact that we've had these conversations many times before)

Either way, it's been fun :)
Title: Re: Who is Practicing the IIH?
Post by: trismegistos on January 06, 2012, 12:40:15 AM
I'll just post this here again, seems it got overlooked.  It's about Randi not legitimately giving anybody a chance to prove themselves whatsoever.

http://www.dailygrail.com/features/the-myth-of-james-randis-million-dollar-challenge
Title: Re: Who is Practicing the IIH?
Post by: LeZebra on January 06, 2012, 01:59:59 AM
Yeah, but a 14 year old kid could come up with the money for the classes lol.

interesting. ok thanks.
Title: Re: Who is Practicing the IIH?
Post by: Steve on January 06, 2012, 04:36:51 PM
Quote
Did you miss the part about Nina Kulagina not being around to do just that?
So you can not think of a way to TEST Randi's claims of false procedure, in order to verify or invalidate them? And then you just accept the claims blindly without considering the lack of ability to verify them?

You accept that you cannot do experiments to validate or invalidate, and yet still you agree with one side. Do you see the problem with this? You're not giving capability to test the claims of invalid trials, and yet you still accept them as though they are correct.

So back again to the question you're avoiding: What are the factors that have not already been taken into account, which you want tested? If you don't want to answer this question, since this is the entire crux of your complaints against Nina Kulagina, my next post will be nothing but this question. Because without answering it, you cannot win this discussion or convince me that retesting needs to be done. (To everyone else reading this: Am I the one missing his response? Did he actually give any criteria for how the tests are invalid, and I'm just not seeing it?)

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I think it's more along the lines of "I can think of ways to perform this feat using stage magic, let's check and make sure that this person isn't using trickery... oh, that's interesting, this person does not want to undergo an investigation... hmm, that's interesting.... I think it's far more likely that they are using some sort of trickery which is in line with our modern understanding of the physical world than it is that they are using some metaphysical phenomenon to accomplish such a feat. I consider it highly suspect that they refuse to accept any investigation as they go about letting people (literally) buy into their claims. I consider that highly suspect and it shoots up several red flags about fraud, and would highly discourage people from buying into this person as much as possible."
So all of that is completely negated by the fact that both Nina and Uri DID allow themselves to be investigated by multiple people. Thus, the criteria of this rant has actually already been satisfied.

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*Steve hat on* I don't know who you think you are, that you can just demand that I tell you anything. Do some of your own work and investigate yourself.

*Steve hat off* *aggregate metaphysical community hat on* "Oh, you've done a lot of research you say, but you're still not buying it? Well you haven't done the right research. Oh, you have, have you? Well you obviously just aren't thinking logically, because the evidence is already there."

*aggregate metaphysical community hat off*

That kind of rhetoric will just drive you mad, won't it?
No, it doesn't because the answer is simple: I've done my legwork and I haven't seen anyone else's legwork that counters mine. I'll accept my legwork. Book closed. I am not one of the people who thinks "magic is for everyone". If someone comes around saying "I've spent x years trying to learn this stuff, but I still haven't even seen the barest evidence that it's real" then my response is either "you're probably doing it wrong" (which is easy enough, since there's not a thousand ways to climb a mountain. you have to really know what you're doing in order to succeed) or "then go do something you want to do with your life".

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Oh, dang. Guess Uri Geller is the real deal. Fuck this shit. I'm off to be his disciple.
Are you actually going to address that then? A stage magician did exactly what you wanted him to do, and by way of experiment disproved Randi's claims that Uri was a fraud. Do you believe the claim or the experiment? This is not a rhetorical question nor a rhetorical situation.

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You asked why anyone would want to go on television to basically be made fun of. Jersey Shore is basically as show where the cast looks like a bunch of morons. Really, the lowest common denominator of society. They make ridiculous amounts of money for getting wasted, having sex, waking up, getting wasted, looking like a bunch of idiots, waking up, getting wasted, etc etc etc etc.
Well you've kind of answered the situation then. To use myself as an example, I would not get money, nor good fame, nor anything positive from getting up on tv and being insulted etc. So, unlike the crew of Jersey Shore who have a great reason to do what they do (money), I have no reason.

If, however, you can find 10 good metaphysicists who you can convince to get on such a show, and convice producers to produce such a show, then you're good to try it out. I wish you the best of luck in convincing people.

EDIT: I'm watching the video right now, about Randi supposedly testing Uri, which is why I didn't respond to it. So far I'm not seeing it. I see Randi making up explanations, but still no actual testing so far.

EDIT 2: Okay, I finished watching that youtube video, seeing no actual testing by Randi, and then watched another where Randi does the same thing; offers explanations for other ways to do it while never actually testing anything. In the second video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NnDHPOWXFVI&feature=related Randi points out that Uri "does it twice" in reference to him supposedly physically bending the key by actually forcibly bending it (watch from 3:30). However, the test with Mr William Cox, if it actually happened the way that he claimed, mentions that William checked the key beforehand and used a key strong enough that he couldn't budge it, placed the key flat on the glass table so as to verify that the key bent without optical illusion, and used a glass table specifically to verify that Uri wasn't using physical force to physically bend the key, prevented Uri from picking the key up and instead Uri rubbed the key from above which still somehow caused the key to bend upward against the force being applied. Randi's explanations of potential tricks fall short, if that description of the experiment is true.

But of course, we'll never actually know how accurate Randi is because Randi never tests Uri. I have no problem critiquing experiments. What I expect to see, however, is more than just making claims of bad procedure with the pompous attitude that making the claims alone is enough to invalidate the experiments. It's *sort of like* an expression I heard a long time ago, and which is semi-popular: don't come to me with a problem, unless you also have a solution.

~Steve
Title: Re: Who is Practicing the IIH?
Post by: Searching on January 06, 2012, 05:47:55 PM
So you can not think of a way to TEST Randi's claims of false procedure, in order to verify or invalidate them? And then you just accept the claims blindly without considering the lack of ability to verify them?

No one said I accepted them  :confused:

I'm just saying-

Skeptics have a problem with Nina Kulagina.

Nina Kulagina is not around to test for whatever the skeptics have issues with.

So there's nowhere to go with that.

Period. Dot. End of line. End of statement.

So don't go reading too much into that.

I, for one, find it far more productive to do one or both of either
1) Finding someone alive with the same abilities that we can test
2) Learning how to develop these abilities in other people, which would then feed back to point one

I'm really not as hung up on Nina Kulagina as you seem to be, or as you seem to think I am.

But you point her out all the time as someone who has solid evidence backing her, and... well.... there is a lot of outcry for things to still be verified, which can't be done, so it seems to be a dead end.

I, for one, would rather seek out something that can be developed fully.

Quote
I've done my legwork and I haven't seen anyone else's legwork that counters mine.

More to the point- you read until it's the same old bullshit, then stop bothering to look further.

Quote
I'll accept my legwork. Book closed.

How open minded of you.

Quote
I am not one of the people who thinks "magic is for everyone". If someone comes around saying "I've spent x years trying to learn this stuff, but I still haven't even seen the barest evidence that it's real" then my response is either "you're probably doing it wrong" (which is easy enough, since there's not a thousand ways to climb a mountain. you have to really know what you're doing in order to succeed) or "then go do something you want to do with your life".

You seem to be combining two separate points- the question of whether it exists at all, and the question of whether any one individual can succeed in performing it.

I don't agree magic is for everyone either, any more than basketball is for everyone or skateboarding or art (all of which I've spent at least several years practicing).

The thing that seems to separate paranormal events from any other event is that, sure, while I might try and fail at art or skateboarding or basketball, I can easily find verification that there are methods of training in existence which provides SOMEBODY results of what I was trying to do.

So it surely exists. Whether I, or anyone else, can achieve it is an entirely different matter.

Ever hear the quote "reality is that which, when you stop believing it, it doesn't go away"?

If someone doesn't believe a slam dunk is possible, well, it's pretty easy to find ample and unanimous verification across the board.

If someone stops believing in psi, they find a fringe number of scientists insisting that they are right and that the math proves it, but nobody else will listen to reason, countered by a large majority of other scientists insisting, using the some basis for argument: mathematics/statistics, that it is they who are right while the fringe scientists just don't hear reason.

It's kind of sad when both sides claim the other is wrong just because they "don't see what's so obviously there".

At least to me.

Quote
Well you've kind of answered the situation then. To use myself as an example, I would not get money, nor good fame, nor anything positive from getting up on tv and being insulted etc.

Actually you WOULD get money.

Your name WOULD get out there.

And if you think that people looking at you as an example of someone with potentially credibly paranormal ability (provided that you actually had that ability) is a bad thing, then I guess you shouldn't count that as a positive.

Quote
I wish you the best of luck in convincing people.

Why would you have to wish me luck? The facts should be obvious enough that they speak for themselves.

Unless, oh, wait, part of you doesn't think the evidence is good enough to convince producers to give me money and resources to film a show? Damn. Talk about subconscious thoughts appearing in text.

Quote
the test with Mr William Cox, if it actually happened the way that he claimed

So I guess it's a case of "he said, she said".

And that's never a very convincing thing to see a bunch of people, especially scientists/statisticians, getting into a debate over as the sole point of evidence in whether or not a thing is real.

Quote
don't come to me with a problem, unless you also have a solution.

I might not have a bucket on hand to help scoop out the water, but does that mean I shouldn't point out that there's a hole in the boat when I see one?

If someone has a problem with something, they should be free to state it.

If something is what it says it is, it should have no problem amply dealing with with those issues in any arena.

If I was the only person who could see in an entire world of blind people, I would have no problem reading things without touching them. This, no doubt, would astound all the blind people. Surely there would be a Randi among them. But no matter how mathematically stacked the odds were against me being able to read thing without having to touch them, I would be able to do it 100% of the time. Why? Because I can see, and my ability to see is not impacted in the least by whether or not someone believes I am able to.

My ability to see is not impacted in the least by the odds that I get one thing correct verses 15 in a row correct.

My ability to see is not impacted in the least by whether or not someone can perform a meta-analysis of a bunch of blind people trying to read things without touching them, and some statistician coming in and throwing a bunch of tests out for bad procedure and running the new numbers again and finding that it's well within the odds that the blind people guessed right.

And why is that the case? Because my ability to see is very real. It does not go away just because someone doesn't believe me. It doesn't go away just because someone "should" believe me because of the math. It doesn't go away just because someone expects me to get 10 out of 10 correct due to a fallacious argument of "extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence" even though mathematically he should accept any number above what probability would allow for correct answers.


And I've got this crazy, far out belief, I know, that paranormal abilities operate under the exact same principle.

If they are real, they will be there. You won't be fiddling with statistics at the fringes of the scientific realm. It will be there, in your face, operating on a daily basis, as something which exists as a fundamental fact of reality.

Go ahead. Call me crazy. Nothing I haven't heard before.
Title: Re: Who is Practicing the IIH?
Post by: Steve on January 06, 2012, 11:40:55 PM
What are the factors that have not already been taken into account, which you want tested?

~Steve
Title: Re: Who is Practicing the IIH?
Post by: Searcher on January 07, 2012, 05:25:16 AM
Steve and SearchING

It will help me and others to understand where both of you are coming from with regards to what you believe in, in respect to Majick/PSI etc. :confused:

It maybe that you both have similar beliefs but are divided by what signifies evidence?

All I can say is that I believe that there is another place besides the physical and that some people can see, hear or manipulate this other place and it can have effects on the physical. Now if you want to call this Majick or PSI or even the over used Paranormal, then OK, but these are just labels? I believe because I have witnessed first hand.

Over to you

SearchER :P
Title: Re: Who is Practicing the IIH?
Post by: Searching on January 07, 2012, 02:31:37 PM
What are the factors that have not already been taken into account, which you want tested?

~Steve

There aren't any that I want tested  :confused:

What part of that did you miss?

Let me spell it out for you one, final time.....

Every one of my points related to Nina Kulagina boil down to what follows:

People (i.e. Steve) point her out as some ultimate evidence ("zomg it's even on video! That should appeal to kids these days") that everyone (i.e. "real scientists") has proven that Nina Kulagina is the real deal.

But there are other people (i.e. Randi) who have a variety of grievances with the research ("here is a way that we can fake that event under those conditions").

Ideally, we would be able to run experiments to isolate and account for whatever grievance is listed.

But she isn't around, so we can't.

The. End.

Note: examples such as Steve and Randi are listed merely as examples. They are not the be all and end all of the types of people that are out there.
Title: Re: Who is Practicing the IIH?
Post by: trismegistos on January 07, 2012, 02:52:31 PM
What happens when an unstoppable force meets an immoveable object?

A discussion between Searching and Steve lol.
Title: Re: Who is Practicing the IIH?
Post by: Steve on January 09, 2012, 04:41:49 PM
Damnit SearchER, now I'm going to have to doublecheck the names of the people posting if I don't want to mix you two up :P

Quote
It will help me and others to understand where both of you are coming from with regards to what you believe in, in respect to Majick/PSI etc.
We both believe magic/psi/whatever exists. What we're arguing over is something different: Searching keeps saying that the evidence isn't good enough, and when I try to press him for what problems haven't already been addressed, he keeps avoiding the question so that he can maintain his belief that the evidence isn't good enough. Until he takes a deep breath and plunges deeper than the concepts and theories, and starts looking at the facts and figures, he's never going to let himself become convinced because he's still so convinced of his misconceptions about how far the scientific experiments have progressed already.

-------
Quote from: SearchING
There aren't any that I want tested 

What part of that did you miss?
The part of that that I missed, was this part:
Quote
But there are other people (i.e. Randi) who have a variety of grievances with the research ("here is a way that we can fake that event under those conditions").

Ideally, we would be able to run experiments to isolate and account for whatever grievance is listed.
Where you do the complete opposite of saying there aren't any factors that you want taken into account. As I wrote above, until you actually look at what's going on, instead of turning your head from it in order to continue believing what you already believe, you're not going to see that these things have already been taken into account.

Quote
But she isn't around, so we can't.

The. End.
With quaint little delusions like this. Even if she's dead, if the factors that people have a problem with have already been taken into account, then it doesn't matter that she's dead because the tests were done to satisfaction before people even started saying they had problems with them. The only way that anyone can say "I have a problem with these tests" is to either 1) look at them and come up with exact, specific factors that aren't regulated, or 2) completely ignore the tests entirely and just make shit up (something Randi has been caught doing by lots of people). Until you or anyone else can come up with something that can be tested, then the books remain closed. So it's not "the end, we can't test for these factors" but "the end, we've already tested for these factors and she's already passed them to satisfaction."

~Steve
Title: Re: Who is Practicing the IIH?
Post by: Searching on January 09, 2012, 07:31:25 PM
Damnit SearchER, now I'm going to have to doublecheck the names of the people posting if I don't want to mix you two up :P

Quote
It will help me and others to understand where both of you are coming from with regards to what you believe in, in respect to Majick/PSI etc.
We both believe magic/psi/whatever exists. What we're arguing over is something different: Searching keeps saying that the evidence isn't good enough, and when I try to press him for what problems haven't already been addressed, he keeps avoiding the question so that he can maintain his belief that the evidence isn't good enough. Until he takes a deep breath and plunges deeper than the concepts and theories, and starts looking at the facts and figures, he's never going to let himself become convinced because he's still so convinced of his misconceptions about how far the scientific experiments have progressed already.

-------
Quote from: SearchING
There aren't any that I want tested 

What part of that did you miss?
The part of that that I missed, was this part:
Quote
But there are other people (i.e. Randi) who have a variety of grievances with the research ("here is a way that we can fake that event under those conditions").

Ideally, we would be able to run experiments to isolate and account for whatever grievance is listed.
Where you do the complete opposite of saying there aren't any factors that you want taken into account. As I wrote above, until you actually look at what's going on, instead of turning your head from it in order to continue believing what you already believe, you're not going to see that these things have already been taken into account.

You can cease with the pontifications. You missed my point entirely.

I am saying this:

There is research out there, and people who don't believe the research is good enough. Unless you address what those people have problems with, you aren't going to convince them. Writing them off, ignoring them, insulting them, and going about your own thing is all well and good, and you can live your life however you want. Just don't be surprised when you don't convince someone because you failed to answer their questions.


Unless you missed something somewhere in that paragraph, I'm not saying that I, personally, am not satisfied with the research. I am saying there are people like James Randi and Ray Hyman out there who are out there critiquing the research. And the response to them is something along the lines of "no, they don't know what we're doing, we know what we're doing, we did it right the first time, we don't need to do it again, because we did it right the first time. So you should just accept that we did it right the first time, and stop asking that we repeat it. Because we already did it enough."

Quote
Quote
But she isn't around, so we can't.

The. End.
With quaint little delusions like this.

Wow. Um.... Okay? You're pretty far gone if you're responding like that.

Quote
Even if she's dead, if the factors that people have a problem with have already been taken into account, then it doesn't matter that she's dead because the tests were done to satisfaction before people even started saying they had problems with them.

And what do you do about the issue of repeatability? Which is part of the verification process?

Quote
can come up with something that can be tested

And THAT'S exactly my point: ON WHO?

Who is it that you think we'd be doing these tests on? A long gone Nina Kulagina? If someone comes up with a theory for how they can fake it, if they want to test it, how exactly do you propose they do that? Or do you just plan to infinitely write them off by saying "we've already tested for it, don't expect to do it again, because we've done it before, that should be enough"?
Title: Re: Who is Practicing the IIH?
Post by: Steve on January 09, 2012, 08:05:05 PM
Quote
There is research out there, and people who don't believe the research is good enough. Unless you address what those people have problems with, you aren't going to convince them.
Until someone tells us what the problem is, we CANNOT address the problem because it DOESN'T EXIST except in theory. This is a completely fucking cop-out, and that's what I've been trying to tell you this whole time. What are the fucking problems? I know they must be addressed, hence why I'm asking what they are!

~Steve
Title: Re: Who is Practicing the IIH?
Post by: MariusAnil on January 09, 2012, 09:36:26 PM
@ Steve: to phase the intense skepticism of those organisations you would need double blind statistical analysis type experiments like this one :biggrin:  http://www.huffingtonpost.com/cassandra-vieten/esp-evidence_b_795366.html.

Guess you all ignored this. Why are you guys bickering over one experiment. There are multiple experiments in the above link with over 1000 subjects. They can all also be repeated fairly easily.
Title: Re: Who is Practicing the IIH?
Post by: Steve on January 10, 2012, 06:24:02 PM
I'm not trying to ignore those, Marius. I'm trying to address the attitude, such as what Searching is using, that prevents a person from looking at any (number of) scientific experiment(s) in order to see what they have to say. Searching is so caught up on the idea that someone's doubt invalidate experiments that he fails to realize how that's just plain not valid logic. (And I'm doing that by arguing around a single set of experiments, rather than trying to argue around 1000 of them) The more scientific stuff you can produce for anyone else reading this thread, the better :)

If I have doubts about thermodynamics, I do not invalidate all of the tests and theories and whatnot that Einstein did just because he's dead and cannot personally refute me. The first step to be taken in such situations should be to look at the experiments that were done and see if any complaints/doubts have already been addressed; if they have been, then the doubts are invalid and in no way, shape, or form invalidate the experiments whatsoever and nor do they set up a requirement for further testing. The lack of ability to come up with specific complaints completely nullifies the concept that a valid complaint is put forward, and thus we can skip the entire process of "valid doubt" in the first place, since these are doubts based in ignorance that are being put forth.

~Steve
Title: Re: Who is Practicing the IIH?
Post by: Searching on January 10, 2012, 10:27:18 PM
If I have doubts about thermodynamics, I do not invalidate all of the tests and theories and whatnot that Einstein did just because he's dead and cannot personally refute me.

Ay yay yay, again you harp on this point!

Of COURSE you'd have to look at other experiments because Einstein is not around. But then you'd be looking at the OTHER experiments, now wouldn't you?

So sure, Nina Kulagina might not be around, so you can look at this or that experiment to find verification that psi phenomena are real. Okay. Wonderful.

That doesn't help Nina Kulagina, who isn't any more around than she was previously.
Title: Re: Who is Practicing the IIH?
Post by: MariusAnil on January 10, 2012, 11:20:07 PM
It doesn't matter if the person is alive, dead, or criminal. why are you bickering on these useless details? The only thing that matters is results. was the hypothesis proved or disproved. If you have doubt recreate the experiment and be objective of the results.

I know its not as simple as this but someone being alive to refute your doubt about their experiments would defeat the purpose of the experiment(its meant to be repeatable) in the first place. if it can't be easily repeated and the variables are... variable then its a poor example of an experiment(more like a recorded event). argue over valid experiments. :biggrin:
Title: Re: Who is Practicing the IIH?
Post by: trismegistos on January 11, 2012, 12:43:49 AM
I have a feeling he's one of those people that even if every variable was tested, they'd be like "well there has to be SOMETHING not being accounted for, it HAS to be a trick because my worldview SAYS IT IS."  I've known plenty of people like that who had nothing to contest about the studies, no variables they could think that weren't tested, but, it is SO obvious that they can't possibly be wrong about such a thing that there is obviously SOME KIND OF TRICK DAMNIT!!!  It all comes down to the lie so many people so often tell, about the whole logic thing and then that open minded thing, and the oh so prevalent "skeptic" thing, except skeptic really means "I've made up my mind nothing can change it unless Jesus himself beams down to Earth and turns me into a rabbit, and then I'll still be skeptical because that's what skeptics are, right?"

Not saying Searching is the kind of person I addressed after that first sentence, but it's just mind numbing how many "men of science" are really just men of dogma.
Title: Re: Who is Practicing the IIH?
Post by: MariusAnil on January 11, 2012, 10:35:24 AM
Its not only that they are men of dogma. The system of scientific pursuit as it is now is based on reputation. Scientist are so afraid of being wrong because their career might be in jeopardy. That is why most scientist don't try to tackle controversial subjects like Metaphysics(or any other controversial subject). Because on the off chance that it is proven valid it would completely flip the modern physics paradigm. I'm not going into corporate interests because the history is too long and disgusting.   
Title: Re: Who is Practicing the IIH?
Post by: Searching on January 11, 2012, 12:23:11 PM
It doesn't matter if the person is alive, dead, or criminal. why are you bickering on these useless details? The only thing that matters is results. was the hypothesis proved or disproved. If you have doubt recreate the experiment and be objective of the results.

I know its not as simple as this but someone being alive to refute your doubt about their experiments would defeat the purpose of the experiment(its meant to be repeatable) in the first place. if it can't be easily repeated and the variables are... variable then its a poor example of an experiment(more like a recorded event). argue over valid experiments. :biggrin:

If you want to see whether it's possible to perform a slam dunk, who do you choose as your pool of subjects- average people off the street, or athletes who train at a professional level?

If you want to see whether it's possible to run a four minute mile, who do you research- average people off the street, or athletes who train at a professional level?

If you want to look at examples of exceptional telekinetic ability, who do you look at- average people who don't perform any feats in their day to day lives, or people who perform these things on at least a semi-regular basis?
Title: Re: Who is Practicing the IIH?
Post by: ThePhoenix13 on January 11, 2012, 01:39:00 PM
I had a question that I wished to ask about the material in IIH, but seeing the absolute drivel on the past few pages has persuaded me to go elsewhere.

I felt I should let you know that this thread has deteriorated into nonsense.
Title: Re: Who is Practicing the IIH?
Post by: TakeV on January 11, 2012, 01:49:34 PM
I had a question that I wished to ask about the material in IIH, but seeing the absolute drivel on the past few pages has persuaded me to go elsewhere.

I felt I should let you know that this thread has deteriorated into nonsense.

Then ask the question, no need to be rude.
Title: Re: Who is Practicing the IIH?
Post by: MariusAnil on January 11, 2012, 01:55:50 PM
Yes that is a valid point. but these are achievements of individuals. poor examples of experiments because the variables are variable. proving psychokinesis is extremely difficult because the numbers aren't there. there aren't enough people who can do it to convince the wider scientific community that it is possible.

precognition and retrocognition are abilities that are much easier to prove because the numbers(statistical analysis) are there. another example of this is scientific studies of meditation. many many people meditate so they can easily gauge the benefits of practice across a broad spectrum of individuals(heck they even found a gene that meditation activates that deals with stress differently then most people do http://www.medicalnewstoday.com/articles/113735.php and also turns on disease fighting genes http://www.familyhealthguide.co.uk/meditation-switches-on-disease-fighting-genes.html ). again argue over valid experiments :biggrin:
Title: Re: Who is Practicing the IIH?
Post by: MariusAnil on January 11, 2012, 01:57:53 PM
I had a question that I wished to ask about the material in IIH, but seeing the absolute drivel on the past few pages has persuaded me to go elsewhere.

I felt I should let you know that this thread has deteriorated into nonsense.

yes it has sorry for contributing to the drivel
Title: Re: Who is Practicing the IIH?
Post by: ChezNips on January 11, 2012, 02:12:13 PM
All topics will meander a bit here and there and part of the IIh would be to use inner filters to ignore the nonsense, dont you think?  Part of the glory of threads is what my montor called mining for gold.  You find the nuggets of useful info and discard the rest.
Title: Re: Who is Practicing the IIH?
Post by: Steve on January 11, 2012, 04:26:44 PM
If you want to see whether it's possible to perform a slam dunk, who do you choose as your pool of subjects- average people off the street, or athletes who train at a professional level?
BOTH! The athletes are more likely to attain the feat, but even "normal" people can make the attempt. However, scientific experiments being done are to determine if psi even exists or not, rather than "what kind of extremely unlikely abilities can be produced?" First, let's find out whether it's possible to hold a basketball before we try and slam dunk it.

Quote
If you want to see whether it's possible to run a four minute mile, who do you research- average people off the street, or athletes who train at a professional level?
BOTH! The athletes are more likely to attain the feat, but even "normal" people can make the attempt. However, scientific experiments being done are to determine if psi even exists or not. So first, let's see if it's even possible to walk, let alone run, let alone run extremely fast.

Quote
If you want to look at examples of exceptional telekinetic ability, who do you look at- average people who don't perform any feats in their day to day lives, or people who perform these things on at least a semi-regular basis?
BOTH! Again, yada yada. Scientists shouldn't be looking for "exceptional" telekinetic ability first: they should be looking for "any" telekinetic ability first. And considering that scientific experiments have used large numbers of "normal" people in order to produce scientifically-significant results, then we don't even need "exceptional individuals" to prove that the abilities themselves exist.

What scientists are currently testing for is roughly the equivalent to testing to determine whether humans even have muscles, let alone what magnitude and multitude of feats can be achieved with those muscles.

~Steve
Title: Re: Who is Practicing the IIH?
Post by: Searching on January 11, 2012, 06:13:52 PM
Not sure if this:
Quote
And considering that scientific experiments have used large numbers of "normal" people in order to produce scientifically-significant results, then we don't even need "exceptional individuals" to prove that the abilities themselves exist.

And this:
What scientists are currently testing for is roughly the equivalent to testing to determine whether humans even have muscles

Quite go together...
Title: Re: Who is Practicing the IIH?
Post by: TakeV on January 14, 2012, 11:30:03 AM
Argument removed. In the future, please try to be more polite towards each other.
Title: Re: Who is Practicing the IIH?
Post by: ThePhoenix13 on January 14, 2012, 07:14:46 PM
I had a question that I wished to ask about the material in IIH, but seeing the absolute drivel on the past few pages has persuaded me to go elsewhere.

I felt I should let you know that this thread has deteriorated into nonsense.

Then ask the question, no need to be rude.

My apologies. As this is forum is a house for others I will do best to keep my mouth shut and ego in check.

My question concerns Bardon's words on the relationship between the initiate and the seeker that is actually quite relevant to the argument that occurred in this thread.

Quote
It is of course quite a different matter when a seeker, no longer satisfied with materialism or dogma and yearning for spiritual nourishment, asks an initiate for advice and enlightenment. In such an instance the initiate is duty bound to enlighten the seeker in accordance with his perceptive faculties. The magician should spare neither time nor effort to communicate his spiritual treasures to the seeker and lead him towards the light.

Bardon is saying to enlighten the seeker by showing him faculties, such as books, but not in teaching the seeker himself?
Title: Re: Who is Practicing the IIH?
Post by: trismegistos on January 14, 2012, 08:08:08 PM
I believe what Bardon is saying is that according to the nature or "level" of the soul, which an Initiate could perceive with his clairvoyance, to reveal certain lesser mysteries to the seeker in order to help him learn.  Not necessarily "show what you are capable of" but simply offer him advise and wisdom that will help him achieve what he is aiming for should his aim be a noble one such as spiritual evolution.  He's saying to be thorough, to not half ass it (not sparing yourself time or effort by giving him short incomplete answers just to get him out of your hair) but to truly help him as fully as you possibly can in accordance to what he's ready to know, to go out of your way to educate him as completely as possible on what he must do and what he needs to know.
Title: Re: Who is Practicing the IIH?
Post by: ThePhoenix13 on January 15, 2012, 04:36:18 PM
Ah, I see. Thank you.

In this case I have been wrong and will do better in the future. Sorry for my rudeness.
Title: Re: Who is Practicing the IIH?
Post by: Iatros on January 15, 2012, 08:57:12 PM
The nonsense that Veritas devolves into periodically is really just a screensaver, you see... As soon as a new question is introduced, it's like someone hits "reset."

Anyways, Trismegistos is right. Admittedly, the IIH has some strange typos / grammatical errors as a result of its translation from German... In my opinion,

Quote
The magician should spare neither time nor effort to communicate his spiritual treasures to the seeker
etc.

should actually be

Quote
The magician should withhold neither time nor effort to communicate his spiritual treasures to the seeker
etc.

As you can see, the words are related in a sense, but present very different meanings in context.

I hope that this wasn't redundant. Be well.
Title: Re: Who is Practicing the IIH?
Post by: charles2010 on January 15, 2012, 11:29:40 PM
hello everyone, I'm new here. Some of my friends told me if we practice iih we begin having the supranatural power in step II. Is this right ? Please confirm this. thanks.  :)
Title: Re: Who is Practicing the IIH?
Post by: Searcher on January 16, 2012, 01:09:28 AM
Hi Charles2010

The simple answer to your question is:

How long is a piece of string?
Or
How long will it take me to walk from here to there?

To put it another way there is no answer to the question!


One of the problems Animus is the understanding of old English, which many modern linguists get incorrect. Both quotes in #488 mean the same!

When I say to my wife “I was abed till 7am” she replies with “NO! you was a man”? Old English ‘abed’ means ‘being in bed’ not that I am actually ‘a’ bed.

This example highlights the confusion and the differences between old and modern English.

Both you and trismegistos are correct IMHO  :)
Title: Re: Who is Practicing the IIH?
Post by: Iatros on January 16, 2012, 12:20:13 PM
I wasn't arguing with Trismegistos, I was supplementing his response by pointing out a flawed translation.

Charles: Searcher is correct. Technically, you already have supernatural power, just because you are a conscious being. It is just very weak at this point in time. The mind of the beginner cannot comprehend non-physical energies, and even if it could, it cannot sense them, and certainly does not have the focus or strength to control them.

Right now, you have power. If you mentally try to do something, no matter what method, you will  have an effect - but it will be so small that you won't be able to tell that you did anything, and whatever you did might not be what you intended to do. After mastering each step of the IIH, your effect becomes more certain, accurate, and powerful... but at no single point do you suddenly - BAM! - have supernatural powers that just didn't exist before, except in special circumstances that are in no way guaranteed.

I will say, however, that Step I focuses on magical focus, and Step II focuses on magical power. The rest of the steps are concerned with amplifying that focus and power and learning to use it in different ways. So in a sense, your friends are right in that after Step II you begin to use what you have developed. Keep in mind, however, that, beyond improvements to your own personal life and inner experience, objectively obvious results take several years of practice, and that there are no shortcuts in magic. If you are the kind of person who expects to be able to light things on fire in only a couple of years, reconsider. Powers in the IIH are side effects of increased enlightenment, and in any case, flash-bang sorcery of that sort takes dedication which few possess.
Title: Re: Who is Practicing the IIH?
Post by: Searcher on January 16, 2012, 12:44:29 PM
And I wasn’t saying that you had differing opinions just agreeing with both of you. Yet another example of how language can get in the way of communication and  understanding.

Another example which I have used is:

I had gay abandonment in the sun, in old English it means ‘I had free fun in the sun’ not ‘I had free bum in the sun’ as it does today!

This should highlight that when reading Bardon, Regardie or Crowley et al., prominence should not IMHO be placed on individual words because the meanings may have changed and that it is therefore better to take the segment as a whole to discover the meaning.
Title: Re: Who is Practicing the IIH?
Post by: charles2010 on January 16, 2012, 03:18:16 PM
Thank You, to both of you for your opinions. Especially to you, Animus. Your words open up my eyes.   :)
Title: Re: Who is Practicing the IIH?
Post by: Melchizedek on January 16, 2012, 06:26:43 PM
Everything that in IIH that Bardon says you should be able to do, you should literally be able to do. If you can't do what he's telling you that you should be able to do, then your doing the exercises wrong.

Look there's no debate about whether this magic system works or not. I can see that it works.

Franz Bardon if he was alive and had permission from divine providence, could guide every single one of us to doing the same thing he could do. No BS.

I say that there is no one alive equipped to do this magic. The closest would problay actually be the stage magicians, like Criss Angel, etc., because they more or less are using the tehcniques talked about here.

I know they are illusions.

You need t take a solo journey to master this system. If you have a teacher who is guiding you, he or she better be able to light a candle on fire with the fire element.

If they can't, then they havn't mastered the exercises properly. There's no debate.

As far as James Randi, do you really think Franz Bardon if he was alive would give 2 f'ks about whther he could convince James Randi to say, "Oh, yeah", WOW! IT'S REAL!".

NO, so if Franz Bardon wouldn't care, why should you?
Title: Re: Who is Practicing the IIH?
Post by: trismegistos on January 16, 2012, 11:33:46 PM

I say that there is no one alive equipped to do this magic. The closest would problay actually be the stage magicians, like Criss Angel, etc., because they more or less are using the tehcniques talked about here.


I don't understand how this is even a potential thought.  Bardon talks about how many teachers there are and how only a select few minority of people ever found them, yet you claim the Teachers to not exist.  He talks about the various people who can do such feats in the world, but you think Bardon is the only Magician to have ever walked the Earth because he was given a mission to write instructional books, forgetting the other multiple hundred members of the Brotherhood of Light who work both from the spiritual as well as the physical planes, and the true Inner Order that it is every magicians goal to become initiated into so that he can receive the truly powerful techniques to achieve God Union, not power.

In the words of a very wise and highly capable Initiate.  "If you are learning from books, you are a Neophyte."  Don't take this wrong, I'm the lowest of Neophytes, but it is a point that all Initiates have agreed upon and why a Teacher is stressed by these same Initiates.  Bardon himself had students.  One of his own students wrote a short treatise on the first 3 steps saying completing them will draw a Teacher, so it is obvious that Bardon stressed the importance of having a Guru.  He didn't just throw them a copy of IIH like "here ya go, this is all you need" because a Teacher can do things for the Aspirant that he can't do himself.  Evolution is 1/4 your own effort, 1/4 the effort of your Guru, and 1/2 the blessings of the Masters and God.  The Masters could liberate you right this very second if they chose to and you could be an Adept just like that, but the Teacher has already become an Adept, he can see into your very soul and heal you before you can fix yourself, he can prescribe specific meditations that will help you.  He can evolve you months ahead (months of your own work) in less than an hour by sharing his own vital force and consciousness with you.  There is no one size fits all system, though a system may fit many on a general level.

You seek power, and for that you will fail.  It seems like every post you make is about thaumaturgy, and nothing about the true purpose of IIH, the 10th step, God Union.
Title: Re: Who is Practicing the IIH?
Post by: Melchizedek on January 17, 2012, 12:07:10 AM

I say that there is no one alive equipped to do this magic. The closest would problay actually be the stage magicians, like Criss Angel, etc., because they more or less are using the tehcniques talked about here.


I don't understand how this is even a potential thought.  Bardon talks about how many teachers there are and how only a select few minority of people ever found them, yet you claim the Teachers to not exist.  He talks about the various people who can do such feats in the world, but you think Bardon is the only Magician to have ever walked the Earth because he was given a mission to write instructional books, forgetting the other multiple hundred members of the Brotherhood of Light who work both from the spiritual as well as the physical planes, and the true Inner Order that it is every magicians goal to become initiated into so that he can receive the truly powerful techniques to achieve God Union, not power.

In the words of a very wise and highly capable Initiate.  "If you are learning from books, you are a Neophyte."  Don't take this wrong, I'm the lowest of Neophytes, but it is a point that all Initiates have agreed upon and why a Teacher is stressed by these same Initiates.  Bardon himself had students.  One of his own students wrote a short treatise on the first 3 steps saying completing them will draw a Teacher, so it is obvious that Bardon stressed the importance of having a Guru.  He didn't just throw them a copy of IIH like "here ya go, this is all you need" because a Teacher can do things for the Aspirant that he can't do himself.  Evolution is 1/4 your own effort, 1/4 the effort of your Guru, and 1/2 the blessings of the Masters and God.  The Masters could liberate you right this very second if they chose to and you could be an Adept just like that, but the Teacher has already become an Adept, he can see into your very soul and heal you before you can fix yourself, he can prescribe specific meditations that will help you.  He can evolve you months ahead (months of your own work) in less than an hour by sharing his own vital force and consciousness with you.  There is no one size fits all system, though a system may fit many on a general level.

You seek power, and for that you will fail.  It seems like every post you make is about thaumaturgy, and nothing about the true purpose of IIH, the 10th step, God Union.

If there exist such teachers, where are they hiding?. I think alot of people, think that they are mastering the exercises, yet can't do things such as using clairvoyance to see inside a person and find their elctric/magnetic imbalances and then re-adjust them. Or make magical items and have them have a perfect will that gives the bearer of it, perfect magical abilites.

I guess the real teachers of which you speak, don't want to take on any students. So their hiding from everyone.

I say alot of people who think they have understood and perfected the exercises, are lying to themseleves. They make excuses for why they can't do alot of the things that is talked about In iih. I say it's because they are deluded.

The God Union is really about creating your own God and then bonding with it. I say it's about mastering the elements, so that you can master the Akasha and manifest realities guarenteed.

It's not about power, due to the karmic kickbacks I know I would get, if I try to impose my will on someone that shoudl be left alone. So I'm not power hungry for the secrets. I see what I can do and not do.

I know that I'm not bringing bad karma upon myself, from what I'm saying, so why do you  try to give it to me, everytime I post something, by posting a lower karma number for me next to my name?

All that's doing for me, is confirming that I'm probaly correct in my assumptions about the IIH
Title: Re: Who is Practicing the IIH?
Post by: Akenu on January 17, 2012, 01:18:48 AM
I have waited for a so long to witness yet another wild debate between two magicians...
Question why would an Adept will to teach is hard to answer. One that accessed Beriyah and got rid of emotions and ego would hardly be motivated to help others, but fact is that Beriyah contains both Asiyah and Yetzirah so that might be the case, but those are just my Yetzirathic two cents.

@trismegistos: I probably can see what you are trying to achieve and why, I have the same feelings about that, but cannot a skilled neophyte change his viewpoint?

@melchizedek: I am sorry for my previous posts, my ego covered my eyes. I am Akenu, master of sin, the hanged man, the fool, and under my labels I accept your initiation. Be well and share your knowledge for the wealth of Veritas.
Title: Re: Who is Practicing the IIH?
Post by: MariusAnil on January 17, 2012, 10:23:35 AM
I thought that when a student needs a teacher the most he/she will appear. I thought it had something to do with karma and people with alike thoughts attracting each other.

Edit: she
Title: Re: Who is Practicing the IIH?
Post by: Akenu on January 17, 2012, 11:01:58 AM
I thought that when a student needs a teacher the most he/she will appear. I thought it had something to do with karma and people with alike thoughts attracting each other.

Edit: she

Right, but it's more complicated. I could eg try to teach my 7 days old son the difference between red and green light and it could save his life when crossing the street, but he won't understand me until the time has come.

It means I have to teach this lesson at the right time and make sure he won't appear alone on the street till that time. It is the same when teaching the Magick.
Title: Re: Who is Practicing the IIH?
Post by: Searcher on January 17, 2012, 11:10:56 AM
A teacher can be said to facilitate education in individuals or groups.

Where in that statement does it reference to humans (alive or dead, spirits, books, internet etc). Again looking at the overall section in Bardon it infers that you will receive the information at the correct level to suit your needs. :cool:

I was in need and virtually fell over Veritas, read something and got the information I needed. I have been here ever since – to the dismay of many :biggrin:
Title: Re: Who is Practicing the IIH?
Post by: trismegistos on January 17, 2012, 12:59:19 PM
I thought that when a student needs a teacher the most he/she will appear. I thought it had something to do with karma and people with alike thoughts attracting each other.

Edit: she

The buddhists call it the Jewel Incarnation, the life where ones karma has come to a point that they are ready for a true teacher.  Teachers don't just go around advertising themselves.  It is just as true today as it was when Bardon wrote IIH, a teacher is reserved to those who have earned it through many lifetimes.  "When the student is ready, the Master appears."

To say that they do not exist just because we aren't in a Golden Age/Satya Yuga where Gods walk the Earth and Masters are the norm, is just ridiculous.  The truth is, the Hierophants of Hermetics have just barely kept the coals glowing through the dark times we recently went through (inquisition etc.) and we are only in the earliest stages of ascending the yugas, you can read more about that in "The Holy Science" by Sri Yukteswar.  So it should be rather obvious that being fresh out of the Kali Yuga that theurgy etc. isn't going to be the prevalent science.  Not all that long ago spiritual evolution required going into caves and a life of renunciation.  It is only recently that the smoke is clearing and the energies becoming suitable for evolution as a householder.  This is the mission Lahiri Mahasaya was given, to show the world that renunciation was no longer a mandatory thing, but that the householder could also be a yogi.
Title: Re: Who is Practicing the IIH?
Post by: Melchizedek on January 17, 2012, 02:31:14 PM
Moderator, what is your basis for assigning me bad karma. I can see what to do and what not to do on the mnetal and astral plane.

I opened up this portal to the inside of the great pyramid of giza, from practicing the mnetal exercises. The godess Isis appeared to me and I was told to focus on the Great Pyramid of Giza and it would be equivalent to practicing the mental exercises from IIH.

If you do this, it is the same power, simply by mediatating on the great pyramid in your mind's eye.

Try doing it, it works. This I was told

(http://www.world-mysteries.com/mpl_2k1.jpg)
Title: Re: Who is Practicing the IIH?
Post by: Iatros on January 17, 2012, 03:09:25 PM
Everyone who sees your posts has the opportunity to assign you karma, not just moderators. It is your job alone to assess what you've sown according to what you are now reaping.
Title: Re: Who is Practicing the IIH?
Post by: MariusAnil on January 17, 2012, 04:17:33 PM
Wow thanks everybody that cleared up a lot(in the context of the question).
Title: Re: Who is Practicing the IIH?
Post by: Melchizedek on January 17, 2012, 05:09:40 PM
Everyone who sees your posts has the opportunity to assign you karma, not just moderators. It is your job alone to assess what you've sown according to what you are now reaping.

I think it has more to do with the quality of the soil, over the seed planted
Title: Re: Who is Practicing the IIH?
Post by: MariusAnil on January 17, 2012, 05:48:40 PM
Hmm quality of the soil eh? Do you enjoy insulting everyone here? I'm not going to reply anymore then this to your comment.
Title: Re: Who is Practicing the IIH?
Post by: Aunt Clair on January 17, 2012, 06:42:24 PM
I hate to say it, but I really believe that there is no one on the face of the earth, who really understands IIH. If there was, it would be on-line and he or she would be famous.I say this, because to have someone skilled in these type of healing arts, would be a blessing that should be shared with all of mankind.
I disagree. Rawn Clark and Robert Bruce are live famous and capable magicians who do understand IIH, for example.

But whom can perform each of these tasks  in the skillslists set out in IIH,at an adept level ,expertly? That is another matter. Perhaps none. Because each magician has strengths and weaknesses commensurate with their peers. Some intuit better, some see better, some project better, some manifest better et cetera;

Clark understands IIH
Bruce understands IIH & energy, healing, and astral projection.
Hurtak understands Initiatic Magick and the merkabah and mysticism
Browne understands clairvoyance, and projection to the afterlife realms

Stone understood Initiatic Magick , mysticism, communication with the Mahatma
Monroe understood phasing and projection to the afterlife realms
Bailey understood Initiatic Magick
Regardie understood vibration of the voice to evoke
Crowley understood rituals of the Hexagram, K&C of the HS/GA
Blavatsky understood clairvoyance, mysticism, projection to the realms, cosmology of the realms, communication with Mahatma, Theosophy

Clark understands IIH as is evident in his companion text. But what are his skills as a magician? He is not forthcoming about that.

Bruce understands IIH as is evident by his texts and his lectures and being initiated and awarded the rank of Hermetic Ipsissimus. He healed himself of Diabetes when his legs were ready to be amputated from that condition. Bruce stopped the CSF leak in my spine which confined me to bed for 7 months subsequent to spinal surgeries. But Bruce only sees spirits in dreamstate and projection, his clairvoyance is not adept.

Bardon understands IIH as is evident by his authoring of it. But could he heal himself of all illnesses? He had poor health, he died in middle age (1909-1958). Some might suspect that healing was not his forte. He wrote about remote viewing and evocation through the magick black mirror but could he evoke Christ whom he emulated at will or other avatars and if so where is the detailed text concerning that pathworking? Did he project to the Higher Planes and communicate with the Mahatma like Blavatsky? Or map out the cosmology like Blavatsky or Monroe? Could he see the afterlife realms like Browne or Monroe?

Bardon was a Hermetic genius. But he was not adept in each and every aspect of the magician. And IIH is the best book so far but it is not without error and it is not the end all be all. There is so much more to learn. The path is infinite and eternal...
Franz Bardon if he was alive and had permission from divine providence, could guide every single one of us to doing the same thing he could do.
Bardon is able to appear in spirit and has done so. Bardon can communicate to the magician when evoked. He has appeared spontaneously to magicians. And he has communicated with others in dreamstate.
Well, I just loaded the magic mirror I made, so that it will give me all the understanding from the IIH. I was just practicing the concentration exercises from Step 1 and I am being instructed by the brotherhood of light who speak to me through my magic mirror to continue where I left off at Step 8
At this point, you should be able to evoke Bardon and have him instruct you.
If you have practiced everything that he talks about in IIH correctly up to that point in the book, if you can not light a fireball with the fire element then you are kidding yourself about how well that you've mastered the previous training up to that point.
Well I, for one, look forward to watching you ignite a cotton ball then because it was listed in Step 5 and you are on Step 8 so you should be able to teach us how to do it now, if what you say is correct. You could post us on YouTube or meet us in chat and those of us who can remote view can watch you do it.
The goddess Isis appeared to me and I was told to focus on the Great Pyramid of Giza and it would be equivalent to practicing the mental exercises from IIH.If you do this, it is the same power, simply by meditating on the great pyramid in your mind's eye.Try doing it, it works. This I was told
I agree with this premise regarding the pyramid. The magician may attain initiations in the superetheric of the Great Pyramid in Shamballah. Buddha, Blavatsky, Bailey, Cooper, Stone and Hurtak wrote about these topics. There are links available to free initiation materials online.
Moderator, what is your basis for assigning me bad karma. I can see what to do and what not to do on the mnetal and astral plane.
The karma here is suss just ignore it and keep on swimming.
Everyone who sees your posts has the opportunity to assign you karma, not just moderators. It is your job alone to assess what you've sown according to what you are now reaping.
On the first day "Karma" was initiated on these boards a choice few began with +50 karma instead of 0. This seems an abuse because if they were not self awarded, how were they instantly at 50 and 60 otherwise? I mean these high numbers occurred when only a few were online. I was online and was incredulous. A few weeks later, I had positive 17 and went to negative 40 in a moment one morning and that must have been manually applied on the Control Panel because there were only 3-5 of us online. So no, I think the Karma system at VS is not what is reaped or sown, it is a form or cyberabuse by the Bully Boys.  Newbies who rock up at VS are smited without cause and leave us. They might have been welcome additions. The BullyBoys applaud each other for amusing abuse. Real Karma is sown by the love and light we share and it is reaped in the love we receive from friends and relatives. It is not awarded for swearing, derailing, derogatory remarks, and blatant abuse of rules.
Title: Re: Who is Practicing the IIH?
Post by: Silver_Archer on January 17, 2012, 07:08:22 PM
Everyone who sees your posts has the opportunity to assign you karma, not just moderators. It is your job alone to assess what you've sown according to what you are now reaping.

I think it has more to do with the quality of the soil, over the seed planted

Quality of the soil? Seriously? I've been glancing over some of your deluded, ego maniacal posts for a while now, and I REALLY thought someone of your disposition would use this opportunity to throw us a condescending 'cast pearls before swine' reference. I mean, seriously, that idiom was practically made for you biblical yahoos to throw around PRECISELY at times like this, and you blew it.

Quality of the soil. I am very disappointed.
Title: Re: Who is Practicing the IIH?
Post by: Aunt Clair on January 17, 2012, 07:17:57 PM
Everyone who sees your posts has the opportunity to assign you karma, not just moderators. It is your job alone to assess what you've sown according to what you are now reaping.
I think it has more to do with the quality of the soil, over the seed planted
Quality of the soil? Seriously? I've been glancing over some of your deluded, ego maniacal posts for a while now, and I REALLY thought someone of your disposition would use this opportunity to throw us a condescending 'cast pearls before swine' reference. I mean, seriously, that idiom was practically made for you biblical yahoos to throw around PRECISELY at times like this, and you blew it. Quality of the soil. I am very disappointed.

Biblical Yahoos? Oh Please. The burning times are over. Be nice.

Edit: Point taken I was vague. Magicians called witches were persecuted during the Burning Times as were innocents without any magick. But Abrahamic Magicians were burnt at the stake too and faithful magicians continue to be publically bashed by those whom should be peers. The Rishis and the Sybils were often religious "yahoos". The Kaballahists and the Hermetic Alchemists were certainly Biblical enthusiasts too. I find the term Biblical Yahoos insulting and unnecessarily devisive. Many magicians had and have faith and religion. The basis of all magick is in these diverse religions. And the Bible is not without magic.
Title: Re: Who is Practicing the IIH?
Post by: Iatros on January 17, 2012, 07:22:11 PM
@Melchizedek: I have faith in a seed.

@Aunt Clair: I have created forum boards which used a karma system and in which moderators / administrators started with higher karma as a further means of cementing the idea that the staff of a site are reputable. I don't know if this was done on Veritas or not, but it's rather par for the course. In any case, the karma of the majority of members who do not possess some special status on Veritas - you, Melchizedek, Kilik, and myself included - would have experienced no such alteration. Karma may not reflect reputability - it also reflects the general opinion of the board's viewers regarding the format in which the posts themselves were presented, regardless of content, or the reaction of the board's populace to the general mannerisms of the poster.

Ultimately, like you've said, the Karma system reflects popularity rather than quality. You are right that infamy on a forum does not mean that the poster's quality is low; however, this disconnect between popularity and quality does NOT afford an unpopular individual the right to ASSUME that their low karma score is due to unpopularity and not lack of quality. On one hand, the assumption could be correct, and on the other hand it could be just another manifestation of the ego's self defense.

If it must be pointed out again and again that "karma score" is separate from real, cosmic karma, then clearly the message is not sinking in and the possibility that the individual is not mature enough to conceptually separate the two must be taken into account.

As an addendum, I do not generally award or detract from karma, but I do watch its movements in various members and find that karmic scores are generally accurate as long as they are not small. If you disagree and provide me with an example of someone who has been "bullied" without cause (e.g. low-quality posts, clutter of the board / thread, or consistently jarring delivery of content), please provide me with your example and I'd actually love to mull it over and discuss the matter with you. As a matter of fact, this offer extends to anyone willing to send me a PM.

Let us do it privately, though, because this is certainly not the topic of this thread and, in case it isn't incredibly obvious, derailing threads is smite-worthy.
Title: Re: Who is Practicing the IIH?
Post by: Silver_Archer on January 17, 2012, 07:41:46 PM
Biblical Yahoos? Oh Please. The burning times are over. Be nice.

That statement made no sense. Then again, this should not be surprising...
Title: Re: Who is Practicing the IIH?
Post by: Iatros on January 17, 2012, 08:46:14 PM
Biblical Yahoos? Oh Please. The burning times are over. Be nice.

That statement made no sense. Then again, this should not be surprising...

...on the other hand, I personally find it surprising that you, as a moderator, choose to extend this pathetic, off-topic excuse of a "debate" rather than prune what is dead for the sake of the topic recovering. For the love of God, if this thread is going nowhere and nobody is willing to attend to it, unsticky it.

EDIT: Not that I think that you're by any means obliged to behave one way or another.
Title: Re: Who is Practicing the IIH?
Post by: Akenu on January 18, 2012, 03:36:18 AM
By the way, I think this is related to the discussion:
http://forums.vsociety.net/index.php/topic,20145.0.html (http://forums.vsociety.net/index.php/topic,20145.0.html)
Title: Re: Who is Practicing the IIH?
Post by: Melchizedek on January 18, 2012, 09:57:54 AM
I think one thing that kills people from making progress on IIH, is that they limit themselves to just practicing the exercises from the book and wondering if magic is real. They practice the exercises and then wonder if it's worth their time and they forget about how the powers talked about in this book permeate their entire lives.

That they are actually parcticing magic in a wrong way throughout the course of their days. What I mean by this is, how they react to situations negatively in their lives. At work or school or in relationships with people, the negative side of the elements is at work. That magic is actually taking place when they have too much of one of the four elements on the negative side.

If for example you get bad grades at school and no matter how hard you try, you still do badly, you can trace the root cause to an overabundace of one of the four elements to the negative side. That you can actually magically transform your grades from bad to good, by finding the particular element you can categorize your bad grades to and then, either through your will or through autosuggestion change the characteristic of that element  from negative to positive, which will  be doing magic to change your grades from bad to good.

If you look at your life, the way you interact, all the bad can be traced back to too much of the negative side of the elements. If you change all the elements inside yourself from bad to good, you automatically change your entire life from bad to good.

This is magic.

People for the most part, limit their ability to making progress on IIH, because they think only in terms of the mental exercises in the book and then forget about how it's already at work, unconsciously it in their lives
Title: Re: Who is Practicing the IIH?
Post by: Searcher on January 18, 2012, 11:58:57 AM
I agree Melch #514

But I do not believe that you have to turn everything positive, as long as the elements are in balance then you can bear the fruits of your labour.

There’s always another but:

But personally I do not think Bardon explains this properly or puts enough weight on it. It wasn’t until I did another IIH system, (more GD orientated) that I understood the need and that it was not purely about balance, that it was also about knowing yourself and your outwardly projection.
Title: Re: Who is Practicing the IIH?
Post by: Iatros on January 18, 2012, 02:22:36 PM
I agree with both of you.

By far the most neglected aspects of the IIH are the black and white soul mirrors. Without the transmutation of the personality, no real spiritual authority is built up, which means that the student doesn't improve nearly as much as they could with equilibrium of the elements. Positivity is defined and brought about by equilibrium, because a negative system is necessarily imbalanced. Therefore, the true student of IIH must correct their personality and mundane life and bring themselves into elemental equilibrium in order to progress. As Prophecy states in his wonderful article 130 Principles of Metaphysics (http://forums.vsociety.net/index.php/topic,11158.0.html):

Quote
25.)  Anything which is equilibrated in actualization is at the center of its own causes, and therefore has direct control over consequent effects.
(...)
10.)  In consequence to principle B25, one necessarily becomes more authoritative in all spheres as equilibrium is gradually achieved via attunement to Deity.  
11.)  Any person with spiritual attunement to Deity can operate magic, but not any person who can operate magic has spiritual attunement.
12.)  A person who can operate change through Deity affects the world from the core to the periphery.
13.)  A person who can operate change through magic affects the world from the periphery inwards, but not always to the core.  
14.)  The subject of principle 12 will not always have magical faculties, but will always be able to work apparently magical and miraculous operations.
15.)  The subject of principle 13 will often have magical faculties, and will often be able to work apparently magical and miraculous operations.
Title: Re: Who is Practicing the IIH?
Post by: ThePhoenix13 on January 18, 2012, 04:19:45 PM
Good referencing Animus.

I agree with the last three posts. It wasn't until I put forth more effort into my mirrors and working on and knowing myself that I began to make swift progress.
Title: Re: Who is Practicing the IIH?
Post by: charles2010 on January 18, 2012, 08:56:18 PM
Hi, everyone I have some Questions to ask you :

1. In step 1 phisycal training, we must dry-brushing our bodies and do magnetic eye-bath in the morning. Can I also do them in afternoon / evening ?

2. Eye-bath (step 1), can I use filtered water instead boiled water ? Does it have same effectiveness ?

3. Can I mix IIH with others ? I mean when we finished step I (after get Vacancy of Mind), instead continue to step II, I do learn psi (kinetic) ?

4. I have read Robert Bruce "3 Months Guide to Mastering Astral Projection". If we can do Astral Projection in 3 Months, why in IIH We must learn it in step VIII (I believe beginners like me must take years to go to step VIII IIH) ? Is it so dangerous do Astral Projection earlier ? :confused:

Thanks.  :rolleyes:
Title: Re: Who is Practicing the IIH?
Post by: Iatros on January 18, 2012, 10:25:13 PM
1. First, Bardon stresses magnetic bathing / showering of the whole body, not just eye baths. Eye bathing is more of a vision remedy and while it may accelerate development of clairvoyance later on is less integral. Next, feel fre to take an evening magnetic wash / brush if you'd like, but remember not to overstimulate your skin with abrasion or your skin and hair by excessive washing.

Magnetic bathing is useful for clearing off negative energy, especially when combined with a visualization. It's recommended after stressful days or time spent in negative situations or with negative people. However, remember that water's magnetism will also wash away any positive energy which you have accumulated in energy work (which takes a few hours to fully affect your subtle bodies). For this reason, bathe before energy work if possible, and wait a few hours afterwards before bathing. If you must bathe after energy work, use hot water, keep it short, and visualize the energies being retained. At this point in your training, you are not doing energy work without a medium (air, food, drink, etc.) but by Step III when you start with the elements and vital force, this should be remembered.

2. The purer the water the better. If you can get distilled water, that will work. The reason it is boiled is to make it sanitary for your eyes and to temporarily remove the magnetic property of the water to release any impressions that it may have stored. Therefore if you use well-filtered water, it will be physically safe, and the hotter the water has been made previous to the eye bath, the more metaphysically pure it will be.

3. You can, but the IIH is a complete system in and of itself and most purists won't recommend it. Take psi, for instance. You COULD learn psi, or you could look over what you've learned and realize that if you use the visualization of Step II to make a form and then impregnate it with a function as outlined in Step I, you have created a psi construct. If you get to Step V, it's easy to see that telekinesis (in the hermetic paradigm) can be accomplished in a few different ways - the projection of the air element, perhaps, or maybe realizing through the Akasa principle that your consciousness may infiltrate the being of the object and thus influence it. This is analogous to the active psi idea of "kineting with the soul," if a little more segmented. Personally, I think that if you're interested in psi, you should do active psi, and if you want to do the IIH, stick with magic.

4. Earlier / faster does not always mean better. I've got a long explanation for this question.

 For projection in general, that's a good book for the prepared individual. I used it when I was starting out (and was not prepared) and got sufficient results to prove that it works. Unfortunately, I've been convinced over the years - partially through my own heart-attack-like experience in which my heart chakra activity failed to produce a projection and put my physical body into a state of shock - that projection isn't as perfectly safe as it's popular to believe that it is nowadays. For one thing, the mental body is more commonly projected, not the astral body, making the "astral" projection most people are familiar with actually mental projection. The astral body of the untrained individual doesn't normally stray more than a few feet from the physical body unless that individual has died or is very near death. The astral body is directly responsible for many physical life processes and therefore if it experiences damage during projection, the individual can come to physical harm. The mental body is safer in this regard, although sustaining damage to the mental body can still cause mental or emotional trauma which can later manifest physically if not corrected.

The reason projection is taught in the IIH at a relatively high Step is because Bardon wishes the student to attain the magical / elemental equilibrium. The equilibrium makes the projector incredibly difficult to harm (or glamor, or coerce, or trick, or trap) on astral and mental levels, and therefore the projector has time to end the projection if they decide the situation has turned sour. Furthermore, at this stage, the individual will be able to differentiate between their astral and mental bodies and project the one which is desired (and safest) each time.

Conversely, Robert Bruce does not adequately train the projector to differentiate between astral and mental bodies and doesn't really address the issue of psychic self defense, except in a completely different book (Practical Psychic Self-Defense), which deals mainly with non-projection defense, and even then discusses primarily countermeasures against existing problems and not techniques which prevent "negs" in the first place, or address the possibility of the individual magician doing something stupid and hurting themselves. He also occasionally recommends things like burning sulfur which, while effective, is potentially fatal if improperly performed and honestly probably shouldn't have been recommended to the public to begin with.

The reasons that Robert Bruce doesn't get much grief for his system (and why projection is widely regarded as safe for the untrained), as far as I can tell, are:

1. Those who give up before they are successful won't complain, obviously.
2. It generally works for people with past-life projection experience and
3. It generally works for people who have already achieved equilibrium through previous spiritual practice but
4. Groups 2 and 3 (Oh, including Robert Bruce, for the record) are naturally protected anyways as I explained before, and therefore may be unaware of danger.
5. Many people project from dreamstate, which naturally uses the safer mental body while the dormant astral body hovers safely near the physical sleeper.
6. Most inexperienced projectors have extremely short projections in which the potential for harm is extremely low.
7. If someone DOES experience psychological trauma during projection, medical specialists chalk the belief in projection in the first place up to pre-existing insanity.
8. If a projector in their astral body were to, say, die, the coroner would be unable to connect the death to a botched projection.
9. People who have projected only a handful of times (including me, when I began) tend to parrot the dogma of their teachers, who tend to be groups 2 and 3. See number 4.

and finally

10. Before something dangerous happens, the projector will usually be in an environment which is scary, because the higher planes tend to reflect essence in form. Therefore, something about to hurt you will manifest violent imagery in the surroundings, often before attack, for example. This will in turn scare the projector which will in turn often shock them safely back into their body. Newsflash: Just because you escape doesn't mean you were safe to begin with. Furthermore, telling everyone that they are safe potentially eliminates this vital fear response, removing the defense mechanism to begin with.

Having been a part of Astral Dynamics (Robert Bruce's site / forum) for long enough to read some of the crazy psychic attack horror stories that I have, it boggles my mind that the community in general is so blithely dismissive of the idea that safety is never a guarantee in metaphysics.

For future reference, the opinion that I am expressing is not a popular one. I am aware of this. I've also been in these communities for several years and have yet to meet people who have been torn up during projection that have convinced me that it was an altogether "safe" experience. Robert Bruce's method will give you results, but if you'd like to try it out I recommend getting to the point in the IIH first. Chances are you'll begin finding yourself out of your body occasionally before you get to that Step anyways.
Title: Re: Who is Practicing the IIH?
Post by: charles2010 on January 18, 2012, 11:33:08 PM
Thank you very much, Animus. You give me a complete answer. Now I have to reconsider my future plan. I hope all  beginners like me who want to do same thing (like me) could read this post and change their minds before it's too late. Have a nice day.  :)
Title: Re: Who is Practicing the IIH?
Post by: Aunt Clair on January 19, 2012, 01:49:48 AM
I agree Melch #514 But I do not believe that you have to turn everything positive, as long as the elements are in balance then you can bear the fruits of your labour.
There’s always another but:But personally I do not think Bardon explains this properly or puts enough weight on it. It wasn’t until I did another IIH system, (more GD orientated) that I understood the need and that it was not purely about balance, that it was also about knowing yourself and your outwardly projection.
This is an important concept. When my peers and I first began IIH we sat in a circle locally meeting 3 to 4 times a week and had a discussion and then practical pathworking including meditative trance and mystic projection. We learned in this way, about Hermetic Magick, Initiation Magick, Alchemy and Kaballah concurrently.

We examined this as we began to transmute the Lower Self and the Guardian Demon. Jodie questioned this , as you do, she felt that we must not eliminate the negative altogether. Her perspective as yours is that balance is necessary. And that the GD is there as a help when we need to stand in our own truth, get the back up, be stirred to righteous anger, or generally need to defend the self from harm. It is the beast within which she felt should be controlled rather than transmuted to become positive as another part of the Guardian Angel. She was right, I believe.

Imho the magician begins bi polar as red on right and blue on left as Bardon espouses but I believe that the blue is negative water and the red is negative earth. When the magician completes the Great Work they manifest positive yellow sun energy  within, this changes the energy body. The right leg stays red but the sun rises and the right arm becomes orange fire(red earth + yellow sun=orange fire) then the yellow sun sets like a waterfall down a mountain (yellow sun + blue water=green air)

When the body becomes tetrapolar it is both positive and negative;

*green  female air positive magnetic reciprocal to earth
*orange male fire positive electric reciprocal to water
purple hermaphrodite (red earth +blue water = purple )
*blue female water negative magnetic reciprocal to fire
*red male earth negative electro0magnetic reciprocal to air

I think it is important to reduce the negativity and build up the light quotient but all must be in balance. We need negative elemental energies for a variety of reasons;

1)Water is the noble chi the treasure of the sunstone or chest. Chi is the river and causes the flow for all elemental energies and clairvoyance requires fire flowing through the water cauldron. Noble golden fire is called Shen it is moved from the magick heart to the brow of the magician. Water cools, cleanses and heals. Noble water is the silver Moon.

2) Earth is the reciprocal to air, and clairaudience requires air flowing through the earth cauldron. Earth grounds and shields. Noble Earth is ruby and  it manifests. It cultivates the emerald together these are the Philosopher's Stone.

We need all 4 elements so we must need the negative and postive polarities, still.  The negative polarity  is useful and likely to occur all the way along the path. If we were truly all light we would be the immortal light body incarnate as an avatar. But we're not there , its a long infinite and eternal struggle and we need the balance along the way.

I agree.
Title: Re: Who is Practicing the IIH?
Post by: Akenu on January 19, 2012, 02:05:06 AM
Negative/positive qualities are just sides of the same coin. Concept of dualities, qualities and correspondences is good for explanation but limiting for execution. Whatever side of coin is up, we still need the coin itself with its opposite side, too.
Title: Re: Who is Practicing the IIH?
Post by: Melchizedek on January 19, 2012, 09:32:24 AM
1. First, Bardon stresses magnetic bathing / showering of the whole body, not just eye baths. Eye bathing is more of a vision remedy and while it may accelerate development of clairvoyance later on is less integral. Next, feel fre to take an evening magnetic wash / brush if you'd like, but remember not to overstimulate your skin with abrasion or your skin and hair by excessive washing.

Magnetic bathing is useful for clearing off negative energy, especially when combined with a visualization. It's recommended after stressful days or time spent in negative situations or with negative people. However, remember that water's magnetism will also wash away any positive energy which you have accumulated in energy work (which takes a few hours to fully affect your subtle bodies). For this reason, bathe before energy work if possible, and wait a few hours afterwards before bathing. If you must bathe after energy work, use hot water, keep it short, and visualize the energies being retained. At this point in your training, you are not doing energy work without a medium (air, food, drink, etc.) but by Step III when you start with the elements and vital force, this should be remembered.

2. The purer the water the better. If you can get distilled water, that will work. The reason it is boiled is to make it sanitary for your eyes and to temporarily remove the magnetic property of the water to release any impressions that it may have stored. Therefore if you use well-filtered water, it will be physically safe, and the hotter the water has been made previous to the eye bath, the more metaphysically pure it will be.

3. You can, but the IIH is a complete system in and of itself and most purists won't recommend it. Take psi, for instance. You COULD learn psi, or you could look over what you've learned and realize that if you use the visualization of Step II to make a form and then impregnate it with a function as outlined in Step I, you have created a psi construct. If you get to Step V, it's easy to see that telekinesis (in the hermetic paradigm) can be accomplished in a few different ways - the projection of the air element, perhaps, or maybe realizing through the Akasa principle that your consciousness may infiltrate the being of the object and thus influence it. This is analogous to the active psi idea of "kineting with the soul," if a little more segmented. Personally, I think that if you're interested in psi, you should do active psi, and if you want to do the IIH, stick with magic.

4. Earlier / faster does not always mean better. I've got a long explanation for this question.

 For projection in general, that's a good book for the prepared individual. I used it when I was starting out (and was not prepared) and got sufficient results to prove that it works. Unfortunately, I've been convinced over the years - partially through my own heart-attack-like experience in which my heart chakra activity failed to produce a projection and put my physical body into a state of shock - that projection isn't as perfectly safe as it's popular to believe that it is nowadays. For one thing, the mental body is more commonly projected, not the astral body, making the "astral" projection most people are familiar with actually mental projection. The astral body of the untrained individual doesn't normally stray more than a few feet from the physical body unless that individual has died or is very near death. The astral body is directly responsible for many physical life processes and therefore if it experiences damage during projection, the individual can come to physical harm. The mental body is safer in this regard, although sustaining damage to the mental body can still cause mental or emotional trauma which can later manifest physically if not corrected.

The reason projection is taught in the IIH at a relatively high Step is because Bardon wishes the student to attain the magical / elemental equilibrium. The equilibrium makes the projector incredibly difficult to harm (or glamor, or coerce, or trick, or trap) on astral and mental levels, and therefore the projector has time to end the projection if they decide the situation has turned sour. Furthermore, at this stage, the individual will be able to differentiate between their astral and mental bodies and project the one which is desired (and safest) each time.

Conversely, Robert Bruce does not adequately train the projector to differentiate between astral and mental bodies and doesn't really address the issue of psychic self defense, except in a completely different book (Practical Psychic Self-Defense), which deals mainly with non-projection defense, and even then discusses primarily countermeasures against existing problems and not techniques which prevent "negs" in the first place, or address the possibility of the individual magician doing something stupid and hurting themselves. He also occasionally recommends things like burning sulfur which, while effective, is potentially fatal if improperly performed and honestly probably shouldn't have been recommended to the public to begin with.

The reasons that Robert Bruce doesn't get much grief for his system (and why projection is widely regarded as safe for the untrained), as far as I can tell, are:

1. Those who give up before they are successful won't complain, obviously.
2. It generally works for people with past-life projection experience and
3. It generally works for people who have already achieved equilibrium through previous spiritual practice but
4. Groups 2 and 3 (Oh, including Robert Bruce, for the record) are naturally protected anyways as I explained before, and therefore may be unaware of danger.
5. Many people project from dreamstate, which naturally uses the safer mental body while the dormant astral body hovers safely near the physical sleeper.
6. Most inexperienced projectors have extremely short projections in which the potential for harm is extremely low.
7. If someone DOES experience psychological trauma during projection, medical specialists chalk the belief in projection in the first place up to pre-existing insanity.
8. If a projector in their astral body were to, say, die, the coroner would be unable to connect the death to a botched projection.
9. People who have projected only a handful of times (including me, when I began) tend to parrot the dogma of their teachers, who tend to be groups 2 and 3. See number 4.

and finally

10. Before something dangerous happens, the projector will usually be in an environment which is scary, because the higher planes tend to reflect essence in form. Therefore, something about to hurt you will manifest violent imagery in the surroundings, often before attack, for example. This will in turn scare the projector which will in turn often shock them safely back into their body. Newsflash: Just because you escape doesn't mean you were safe to begin with. Furthermore, telling everyone that they are safe potentially eliminates this vital fear response, removing the defense mechanism to begin with.

Having been a part of Astral Dynamics (Robert Bruce's site / forum) for long enough to read some of the crazy psychic attack horror stories that I have, it boggles my mind that the community in general is so blithely dismissive of the idea that safety is never a guarantee in metaphysics.

For future reference, the opinion that I am expressing is not a popular one. I am aware of this. I've also been in these communities for several years and have yet to meet people who have been torn up during projection that have convinced me that it was an altogether "safe" experience. Robert Bruce's method will give you results, but if you'd like to try it out I recommend getting to the point in the IIH first. Chances are you'll begin finding yourself out of your body occasionally before you get to that Step anyways.


Yeah, I agree 100%. It's totally irresponsible of Robert Bruce to encourage Astral Projection in someone starting out in magic. This is the last step in IIH, because you need total mastery of your emotions. You could make one mistake in astrally projection and Yes, you could die.

If you were to actually astarlly project and someone was to come across your body and touch you. Forget it, your dead.

On the subject of the elements, you only need to clear up the element blockage and you quantumly jump your success rate.

For instance, if your struggling to make progess of the mental exercises in IIH, you could visualzie the Fire , Air, Water and Earth Element and using your intuitve guidance, see under what element your blockage to doing the exercises resides.

Then either using autosuggestion, your will or transmutation through your imagination, chnage the negative characterisitics from negative to positive, you could uncover your ability to do all the exercises perfect.

The Negative qualities of any of the elemenst are not a blessing, they are a curse. It's due to fear and anxiety about uncovering the Universal power that makes most people self-sabotage dissolving it.

You don't want 2 sides of the same coin, you only want one-side of the coin the positive. You will always have inner conflict and will always shoot yourself in the foot at magic, if you allow the negative side of the coin to exist in yourself. You will always be back stepping in your progress at magic and at life.


The negative qualities will kill you in the end. This is their purpose, to destroy you and they will if you do not eradicate them from your mind and spirit. They are Evil in disquise

Get rid of the negative qualities of the elements, this leads to mastery of yourself. This is what you want.
Title: Re: Who is Practicing the IIH?
Post by: Akenu on January 19, 2012, 09:47:04 AM
I do agree with that but unqualified tries of eradicating negativeness can lead into suppressing it, moving it back to your mind. That means they will arrive later and much stronger than before. Many people lost their sanity and even lives by this practice.
First step of real eradication of negativity is accepting it as yours. We are not one side of the coin, the other side is not opposed to us, we are the coin, both sides (and edges, too).
Title: Re: Who is Practicing the IIH?
Post by: Searcher on January 19, 2012, 11:01:36 AM
Melch if I may quote myself, with added emphasis:

“But personally I do not think Bardon explains this properly or puts enough weight on it. It wasn’t until I did another IIH system, (more GD orientated) that I understood the need and that it was not purely about balance, that it was also about knowing yourself and your outwardly projection.”

Lets say (for the sake of an example) that I become irritable and quick to temper; over critical of others; and down right over domineering when normally I am vigorous; creative and original; and lead. This indicates that I am out of balance in favour of fire. Reducing the fire element alone is not going to alter the situation – I need to alter/amend…me.

By looking closely at ourselves and being totally honest with ourselves we can judge what level of each element is within us. For this you will require a list of positives and their corresponding negatives for each element (I’ve acquired one if you want it). You will also need to know the connection between each adjacent element because this will also cross over the positive/negative connections. Once you have done this add up the positives for each element and see if you are in balance. You can then action plan to amend, to bring yourself in balance.

Once you have done this honestly! Then I can see no problem in AP or RV because you are now aware of who you are and are in control of who you are!

Personally I cut my back teeth whilst doing ‘spirit of the glass’  :biggrin: and many people AP or RV before they even know what it is. But I concede that knowledge and balance makes the situation far easier to handle and control.

Title: Re: Who is Practicing the IIH?
Post by: Melchizedek on January 19, 2012, 12:32:46 PM
I do agree with that but unqualified tries of eradicating negativeness can lead into suppressing it, moving it back to your mind. That means they will arrive later and much stronger than before. Many people lost their sanity and even lives by this practice.
First step of real eradication of negativity is accepting it as yours. We are not one side of the coin, the other side is not opposed to us, we are the coin, both sides (and edges, too).

Your right that getting rid of them is diffucult or you suppress them due to not being able to overcome them. Yes it's true there are two sides to the coin. You have the Electric fluid being positive and the Magnetic being Negative, if only in a sense of a charge.

But, I say that you have to see the positive side of the coin as being Attributes to your character and the negative side of it as being defects to your character.

I'll be the first to admit that getting rid of the negative part of the elements, for myself anyhow is very, very diffucult. I realzie that the reason for all my problems with personal issuse and with progressing on magic is directly related to the negative side of the 4 elements. That in order to get rid of them, you really need to do all the exercises from the book and literally attack them from every conceivable angle possible.

From the Astral and Mental perspcetives. I understand that you say that these negative traits are our own. It's true, but I say that you need to strive to rid yourself of them. I think maybe too many people accept that they have negative traits and live with them. I say this is the root cause of illness and depression and in the case of IIH frustration and throwing your hands up and quitting, due to doubt about whether this system really leads to a development of magical abilities.

The doubt in the validity of IIH being real has a direct connection to  an overabundance of the negtaive side of the elements within your spirit and mind. If you could totally overcome the negative, which is very diffucult, you would peel back a veil and see this magic system in
it's completeness. This would lead you to harnessing tremendous magical powers and abilites. You would have direct access to infinite universal magic.

The only thing blocking you from having it, is the negative side of the 4 elements
Title: Re: Who is Practicing the IIH?
Post by: Melchizedek on January 19, 2012, 12:36:33 PM
Melch if I may quote myself, with added emphasis:

“But personally I do not think Bardon explains this properly or puts enough weight on it. It wasn’t until I did another IIH system, (more GD orientated) that I understood the need and that it was not purely about balance, that it was also about knowing yourself and your outwardly projection.”

Lets say (for the sake of an example) that I become irritable and quick to temper; over critical of others; and down right over domineering when normally I am vigorous; creative and original; and lead. This indicates that I am out of balance in favour of fire. Reducing the fire element alone is not going to alter the situation – I need to alter/amend…me.

By looking closely at ourselves and being totally honest with ourselves we can judge what level of each element is within us. For this you will require a list of positives and their corresponding negatives for each element (I’ve acquired one if you want it). You will also need to know the connection between each adjacent element because this will also cross over the positive/negative connections. Once you have done this add up the positives for each element and see if you are in balance. You can then action plan to amend, to bring yourself in balance.

Once you have done this honestly! Then I can see no problem in AP or RV because you are now aware of who you are and are in control of who you are!

Personally I cut my back teeth whilst doing ‘spirit of the glass’  :biggrin: and many people AP or RV before they even know what it is. But I concede that knowledge and balance makes the situation far easier to handle and control.



What I do is look at any particular problem I have. Then intuively I look in the ether at the 4 elemenst and see whcih element my problem has it's roots in. Then I',, transmute the negative part of it, into the positive side of it by imagining that it's transmuting. I find that this decrease my problem. Now if only I could totally transmute every bit of it, it would be amazing!. This is what I've been looking for.
Title: Re: Who is Practicing the IIH?
Post by: Searcher on January 19, 2012, 12:51:13 PM
If you do not mind me being critical Melch I think you are taking the easy option there. :wink:

Looking back, I identified that I was not spending enough ‘talking’ time with my wife. So I action planned, it took a few months but the conversation is no longer one sided. (after 30 blah blah years of marriage I can now have an opinion – as long as I do not force the issue :))

It is time related and by action planning it pins you down to succeed. This is why I don’t think Bardon did it justice.
Title: Re: Who is Practicing the IIH?
Post by: Iatros on January 19, 2012, 03:10:20 PM
@Melchizedek:

Why do you say that if your physical is touched during astral projection, you will die? I've heard this before but am not convinced... I've also been touched during exit symptoms with no negative effects. I admit that since I wasn't 100% out I can't prove your statement wrong through experience but I'd still expect non-lethal harm to occur if there was an issue.

Or do you just mean that your physical body is vulnerable to attack during projection? I can definitely agree with this, but it's not much worse than sleeping. I guess I'm just wondering what your mechanism for death-by-touch is and where / how you learned the concept.
Title: Re: Who is Practicing the IIH?
Post by: ThePhoenix13 on January 19, 2012, 06:42:06 PM

The Negative qualities of any of the elemenst are not a blessing, they are a curse. It's due to fear and anxiety about uncovering the Universal power that makes most people self-sabotage dissolving it.

I disagree. If it were not for the negative then how else would we find our way toward the positive? Anxiety and fear are indicators used to redirect focus into a more desirable reality. Take for example Animus situation where one feels fear before being attacked during projection. Without fear you cannot know safety.

Quote
You don't want 2 sides of the same coin, you only want one-side of the coin the positive. You will always have inner conflict and will always shoot yourself in the foot at magic, if you allow the negative side of the coin to exist in yourself. You will always be back stepping in your progress at magic and at life.

Agreed. A problem that I have made in the past is focusing on the negative aspects of myself, wishing them away instead of accepting them and using them to redirect my focus to what I really wanted. Focusing on what is only brings more of what is.

Quote
The negative qualities will kill you in the end. This is their purpose, to destroy you and they will if you do not eradicate them from your mind and spirit. They are Evil in disquise

Speaking from personal experience, their purpose is to help guide you, not destroy you. In theory, if you continue to fight and ignore what your higher self is telling you via your emotions, and therefore no longer follow the path intended, death may be the only choice in the advancement of your being.

Experiencing undesirable emotions and labeling them as such not only strengthens their power over you as you repeatedly focus on suppressing them but also stagnates the progress of your being. It is like walking with your eyes closed in a desert. How are you suppose to find direction where the wind constantly reshapes the dunes if you have thrown away your compass? You can't, and are doomed to wander the arid land until you come to cross by time and chance or rediscover your compass.
Title: Re: Who is Practicing the IIH?
Post by: Melchizedek on January 21, 2012, 09:39:42 AM
I look at IIH from the point of eradicating the negative. I say that each person is different and will look at doing it from different points for their indiviual personalites. To me I say that transmuting the negatives would be the key for myself. For others they might look at some particular point of the mental training that wouldn't resonate with myself.

If you feel that their's some benefit to having the negative side of the element, then maybe theirs some learning or power you might get from it.

I myself don't see it, butI'm not looking at it through your eyes, so maybe you see something about keeping it that I don't see.

In the end it's still the same mental exercises that were all doing.
Title: Re: Who is Practicing the IIH?
Post by: MariusAnil on January 21, 2012, 08:32:18 PM
negative and positive are just the labels that are used to describe the state of a substance. I don't think we know the true meanings of these states enough to justify a definition that uses our current language. Just my thoughts.

Edit: s
Title: Re: Who is Practicing the IIH?
Post by: charles2010 on January 23, 2012, 06:52:48 PM
Hello, I am in step I IIH and  I have another question :
1. I know pure will better, but is it safe to mix lucid dream technique in step I IIH ? (Now I begin to Record my dream every morning I wake)
2. I know Auto - sugestion is in step II. But I try Auto sugestion every night before I sleep (I focus on Healthy). And wow !!! I feel Very health in the morning I wake. So I think It's safe one. What do you think ?
3.in phisycal training bardon say we could only fill the water/food/breath with one desire (good thing), but we can fill it with all the bad things (illness, anger, everything). Why ?
4. I apologize for this question but when urine or defecate in restroom/toilet can we visualize all our illness, etc disapper with our dirt ? (if someone feel this question impolite, please delete it)   :-X

Sorry if my English bad, I'm from Indonesia.  :)
Title: Re: Who is Practicing the IIH?
Post by: Iatros on January 23, 2012, 07:29:58 PM
1. Yes. There is no conflict with keeping a dream journal, and in fact it will help later on to keep you constantly conscious instead of sleepwalking through life like people normally do.

2. Yes and no. Technically, there's no harm in it, but ideally the practices of Step I are supposed to prepare you to PROPERLY practice the Step II exercises. So if you do autosuggestion now, keep in mind that you shouldn't assume yourself to be "a step ahead" in that exercise in Step II - even if you technically are. You should devote yourself entirely to whatever exercise you are trying to master, and autosuggestion (Step II) will only become completely effective after you are able to effectively control your thoughts (Step I) in order to make those auto-suggestions.

3. Anything you take into yourself should only be imbued with positive things. Filling water with bad things is reserved only when you are then discarding that water, such as a bath... and in this case you are not filling it, but letting it drain out of you to purify you. See, in drinking something, you are creating a virtue which you want more of and then making it a part of you.

4. Yes, that's perfectly fine. I at least see nothing wrong with it, seeing as those processes are designed to eject what is impure, and our negative mental and emotional qualities are analogous.
Title: Re: Who is Practicing the IIH?
Post by: charles2010 on January 23, 2012, 10:23:58 PM
Thank you. As usual, you give me good answers.
Title: Re: Who is Practicing the IIH?
Post by: Kichara on January 30, 2012, 07:33:34 PM
1. yes

2. It is safe.

3. What Animus said.

4. I do this all the time and have seen good results with it.
Title: Re: Who is Practicing the IIH?
Post by: abc on February 13, 2012, 12:26:37 PM
Hello, I am in step I IIH and  I have another question :
1. I know pure will better, but is it safe to mix lucid dream technique in step I IIH ? (Now I begin to Record my dream every morning I wake)

It is only advisable to mix the first and the second step in the way you have asked below, if you are starting to mix in other steps you are simply wasting your time, you will see below why.

Firstly, IIH is brilliant. Make sure you read the IIH Commentary by Veos on this website, it will explain why 99% of people give it up at Step I and how not to fall in to ego's desire to give it up and find an 'easier' path, and more practically what to do at each step to help you with it. Also feel free to write to me as I am strictly on IIH path.

1. Lucid Dreaming is brilliant, I do it. At Step I level it will be incredibly motivating as it will give you a real experience of something truly magical in life. Also if you regularly lucid dream then start reading about OBE's as it will become much easier for you to OBE (read online on Mihail Raduga and Robert Bruce, those are the best practical tests on OBEs (imho). Next time you have a lucid dream instead of doing whatever it is you like to do, try to sit down and mediate in it and see what happens. Try to imagine your Angel appearing in it and see what happens. Try to fly up really really really high, keep flying through the sky and higher (it may take a while) and see what happens.


2. 2 know Auto - sugestion is in step II. But I try Auto sugestion every night before I sleep (I focus on Healthy). And wow !!! I feel Very health in the morning I wake. So I think It's safe one. What do you think ?

Autosuggestion is fine at step I. If you can direct it towards helping you reach the Step I goal. In IIH Step I is the hardest step to pass which is why most people fail at it or give it up, or skip it entirely (and then give up IIH at later steps when they are obviously not working). I think only about 1% of people actually pass step I in IIH. It will be literally the hardest thing you will do in life, and the most rewarding one as well (your entire life will change once you are through with step I - trust me).

Step I is not to be underestimated. If you have a full time job, it can easily take over a year of everyday practice and meditations if not much longer than that just to pass Step I. So you need every single help you can get on it, and so use autosugestion to help you with it. Specifically what you want to focus on phrases such as 'My mind is calm. There are no thoughts in it.' and then pause for a second or two, then repeat it again as per instructions in the book. Or anything similar (''I notice the gap between my thoughts', 'I keep this gap, I stay with it.'', ''No thoughts.'' etc) and so on.

But nothing can substitute Meditation for Step I, the key is meditating like crazy all the time. The best way to do that is to start doing lots of little meditations (eg: 5 minutes or so) as they are very easy to do psychologicaly. And then to keep increasing this time to 10 minutes and so on. If you do this rather than just doing one very long meditation or two very long meditations in the day, you will find your lifestyle changing much faster and the effect will arise much faster as well. You should still aim to go for long meditation sessions but this is later, at first start with mini-meditations and as many per day as possible. If you work you can do it in the toilet at breaks (I used to do that), or in an archive room (I also did that).

3.in phisycal training bardon say we could only fill the water/food/breath with one desire (good thing), but we can fill it with all the bad things (illness, anger, everything). Why ?

When you create a desire or impregnate something with a desire/wish, you are creating a thought form on the mental plane. The desire/wish = thought form. Then the astral forces start working on this thought form. If the thought form is diluted then astral force can not work on it (because there is no thought form has actually formed on the mental plane).

If you are having different thouhts when you create a desire/wish you will not form an actual thought form on the mental plane. If you are trying to impregnate water with a wish and while you are doing it thoughts pop into your mind ('hmm i'm hungry', or 'i wonder whats on tv', etc) your thought form will not form. There must be complete concentration on a very specific thought when you are forming a thought form, and you must not devitate from it at all. This is why Step I teaches how to control your mind so there is not a single thought in it at least for 10-30 minutes. Because without this you can't do anything at all.

This is also (imho) why Bardon says to focus on ONe Desire only. So you can start practicing this exercise. Until you are past Step I this is just practice as your mind will not be able to keep stray thoughts away, but its good practie nonetheless and can work a little bit like self-hypnosis (although no astral help will come, as there is no thought form formed on the mental plane due to distractions in the mind).

When he talks about filling it with all the bad things he means you can you can group them together. Naturally it would work best if you focused on one specific bad thing, but groupoing them in this way is sometimes also used (qigong uses such a grouping approach with negative energy). If you can make it more specific it would work better, eg if you are experiencing anger or lust you can make the impregnation with that, then it would be much more effective than grouping things together.

4. I apologize for this question but when urine or defecate in restroom/toilet can we visualize all our illness, etc disapper with our dirt ? (if someone feel this question impolite, please delete it)

This is a totally fine question, there is nothing impolite in self-development especially on the magic path when we have to face our worst desires and habits. What you describe is exactly what you are to do. Again if you can make the imagination more specific rather than just 'general negative stuff' make it very specific and imagine that illness, or the characteristic or habit leaving you, the it will be much more effective.

Final words don't give up step I buddy, keep at it, no matter what it takes, however long it takes, whatever sacrifices and changes you need to make in your life, never give up, it will be worth it. You will feel what the phrase of spiritual evolution really means (you will be a different person by the time you are at Step I and your life will become so much more positive than you could even imagine)  - and that will only be the beginning!
-------

Final note, don't scatter your interests, if your interest is Step I make sure you keep focusing on doing the exercises to pass that step. Don't start playing around with techniques and methods that are not helping you to calm your mind. Otherwise it may take a few years to pass step I and the longer it takes the more chance there is for giving up.

You can nail Step I in about half a year, but that means a complete solitary life in total silence, no job, no interactions with anyone, and constant yoga, pranayama and meditations many times a day, as well as no sex or any loss of sexual energy. For a westerner this is often unrealistic, but this is roughly what is possible if you put your mind to it.

The entire 1-8 steps can be nailed in 4 years (read Veos article) and you'd be ready for evocations. In just 4 years from now you can be a clairvoyant with all kinds of other awesome abilities, a proper magician at last. Think about it buddy, just 4 years. And things become much easier after Step I as well (things already become easier on Step I as you get further and further in it). So the hard work is only the very beginning few months, then things get easier and quite enjoyable.

We are with you buddy!
Never give up :)
Title: Re: Who is Practicing the IIH?
Post by: charles2010 on February 13, 2012, 07:25:02 PM
Thank you, abc & Kichara. Your answers is inspiring me. I've trained myself for a month now.  I found it difficult to pass step I. But your answers give me some light of spirit. Thank You. :)
Title: Re: Who is Practicing the IIH?
Post by: abc on February 14, 2012, 01:37:14 AM
Thank you, abc & Kichara. Your answers is inspiring me. I've trained myself for a month now.  I found it difficult to pass step I. But your answers give me some light of spirit. Thank You. :)

thats why we are all here, to help each other :)
keep at it buddy, write if you have any questions and make sure you read IIH Commentary by Veos - thas an essential companion :)
Title: Re: Who is Practicing the IIH?
Post by: superzeno on February 14, 2012, 08:57:07 AM
does it talk about invocation in the IIH i been trying to find info on it
Title: Re: Who is Practicing the IIH?
Post by: Iatros on February 14, 2012, 09:15:18 AM
Yes, Bardon emphasizes that a plastic imagination is a stepping stone to the active visualization and eventual unification with a god, and that the four divine qualities must be united within that visualization, essentially.

It's also in Step X, just for the record, with all that that implies.
Title: Re: Who is Practicing the IIH?
Post by: charles2010 on February 14, 2012, 11:56:15 PM
hi, here is my next question :
1. To attain VoM should we must empty our mind on purpose or we must concentration to one object until we attain it ?
2. For succesfull practice we have to avoid misuse sexual desire. Does it mean we must live as single (not married) ?
3. In what step someone begin having magical abilities. In IIH, Bardon say in step III, but  before this step can we do magical things like psikokinesis, or others ?
thanks.
Title: Re: Who is Practicing the IIH?
Post by: abc on February 15, 2012, 03:10:41 AM
1. To attain VoM should we must empty our mind on purpose or we must concentration to one object until we attain it ?
thanks.

hey :)
What is VoM?
What do you mean 'attain' an object?

2. For succesfull practice we have to avoid misuse sexual desire. Does it mean we must live as single (not married) ?

I was just having this same conversation with an experienced magician yesterday. There is a mixed view on this.

You can live married that is not a problem, and there are plenty of advanced magicians who are married, have regular sex, and still have developed clairvoyance, invocation and a range of other abilities. There is at least one such magician that posts on this forum. I am on the other hand at the opposite end of the scale, no sex, no family, everything renounced.

The best way is for you to figure out what you need rather than to listen to advice. The way to do that is to take a break from sex and then record in your diary what you experience, how your thoughts, moods, concentration changes. And then get back to sex. Then have plenty of sex and record the same results. This way you will be able to find the balance of sex-nosex that you need at your current stage of development. Also read up on White Tantra (no sex ever), Grey Tantra (occasional sex) and Black Tantra (lots and lots of sex) and anything you can read up about sex (magicians often write about this, yogis write about it - seminal energy and so on).

3. In what step someone begin having magical abilities. In IIH, Bardon say in step III, but  before this step can we do magical things like psikokinesis, or others ?

You can have develop crazy magical abilities well before you even think about IIH. One of such things is OBE's. It is normal nowadays that people who know nothing about magic, simply pick ap an obe book and start having obe's a week later. Through OBE's you will experience a whole range of very bizzare, amazing and very curious things. You can travel back in time or in the future, you can visit the Akashik library and ask for any question you want answered and so on. And this is with NO magical abilities at all.

OBE-ing is very easy to learn. Google Robert Bruce and Mihail Radugae. They have key routines that you can do to start OBE'ing. I recommend mastering Raduga's Indirect Entry method (straight after sleep) as you can have your first OBE the very first night you try it (80% of people have their first OBE within 1-3 nights of trying it, mine was the very first night). Then you wanna join OBE forums.

Raduga's forum is in russian and probably no use unless you speak the language. But his forum does have the biggest amount of OBE-ers together in a forum on the entire planet! And lots of them have their OBE Diaries uploaded for everyone to read. And these people are no magicians, most of them don't even believe in magic, its quite funny really :) IF you don't speak russian, join Robert Bruce's instead. Robert is a magician and a lot of his followers are, so the forum reflects that in a way.

On such forums you will see that people with no trained magical abilities but who can OBE do all kinds of incredible magical things from talking to their guardian angels to travelling back forth in the future, to finding out things that nobody else knows in the present, to finding lost objects, anything at all, its quite unbelievable. Last diary post I was reading was an OBE-er who travelled back in time to walk with the dinasours, he described the incredible stench in the air, the heat, the wierd sounds from the reptiles or whatever was flying, what he saw, touched, saw. Its totally incredible.

And of course during all of this start the IIH path as well. That way you have both the hardcore training (IIH) and the magical experience (OBE).

OBE-ing can take about 5 minutes per day max in terms of preparation (if you follow Mihail Raduga's approach, and I strongly recommend following that approach before Robert Bruce's, master Raduga's first and then think about Bruce's, they are very different approaches. Bruce's approach is known as a Direct Method this is the hardest method for people to master, what you want is first to master an Indirect Method, and only later even think about the direct method, or its likely you will have no sucess at all (direct method requires already developed ability to enter an altered state, while indirect method requires nothing at all except a few mental tricks when you wake up in the morning and thats it - as you are already in an altered state when you wake up in the morning)
Title: Re: Who is Practicing the IIH?
Post by: mrblack on February 15, 2012, 02:21:50 PM
@charles2010

1. VoM came easily to me so my advice might not be valid but the method I've heard to easily
achieve this is start with the passive meditation, the focal, then go for VOM. Make it into a gradual
step by step process instead of jumping in to it.

2. No, it just means to have more control of your desires. I haven't had any magickal problems
with my lack of sexual control  but to each his own.

3. IIH is a training regime that focuses on strengthening the magus however, magickal skills can
be achieved without it. Divination is a skill that IIH has no part of, OOBE (even though I don't
think it's as easy as everyone says), certain clair'x' skills, etc. People are skilled in certain things
and it's applies in magick as well, find out what you are skilled at and foster that strength.
Title: Re: Who is Practicing the IIH?
Post by: Hellblazer on February 15, 2012, 03:54:19 PM
I was going to practice the IIH but decided against it due to the fact I seem to favor more A.O.S magick. However the subject of sexual transmutation is familiar to me. The only point I can make about removing sex and or self-pleasure, is that the energy you would normally expend in that activity is conserved. The transmutation process is simply what you decided to do with that pent up energy. It's not a hard thing to figure out and do. A part of my personnel project is to transmute that energy into a form of manifestation "power". If done right transmutation can aid anything. However you don't have to do it to achieve various feats of magick. It just helps some people. It has aided my energy healing, empty force, and intention-manifestation abilities. I'm no jedi master but I'm getting there. :P
Title: Re: Who is Practicing the IIH?
Post by: abc on February 16, 2012, 04:06:14 AM
@charles2010
OOBE (even though I don't
think it's as easy as everyone says)

this is true for the 'direct method', this is the method that dominates the litetarure (the old school writers on obe, also Robert Bruce's training can take up to 3 months just to have 1st obe, and by end of that 3 months you become quite skilled at energy body manipulation = is all known as direct method)

but there is a much easier method requires no knowledge of energy body or any skill at all, its quite recent and very easy to use (in my signature link is the free book on it). The truth is people simply don't try, or try once/twice and thats it, or don't follow the instructions as they should be. For those who follow instructions and try more than  a couple of times, within 10 tries the statistics from the oobe research centre show that 90% of people have their first proper obe or usually multiple obe's in one morning (the book with all the info and techniques in my signature). the oobe research centre developed this easy techinque and is now teaching it for free via its free books, seminars and experiments. (i think the seminars in usa are free, the ones in other countries you may need to pay to cover the costs)
Title: Re: Who is Practicing the IIH?
Post by: Demon of flame on February 16, 2012, 12:58:09 PM
i have a question about step 1

during thought control,you first watch your thoughts,then proceed to the blackness(i call it that but thats the period of no thought or very  little thought),then the flashing or discharging of the eyes(flashing colours and random objects seen even though your eyes are closed) and finally an empty mind.

My question is the narration of your thoughts(you telling yourself to calm down,observe the thoughts and telling yourself to breathe)are these classified as thoughts as well or just the memories and trains of thought?

Because i tend to tell myself to breathe and just observe the thought alot when i'm trying this exercise,is the downfall when which they mention in the commentary(for step 1) and if so will time elapse this or should i stop telling myself to breathe and concentrate as a whole?

Michael
Title: Re: Who is Practicing the IIH?
Post by: Searcher on February 16, 2012, 01:10:30 PM
DoF

Observing your breath is a type of meditation. Feel it entering and going down and then coming back up and feel it release. If memory serves me correctly Buddha is supposed to have perfected this in his exile.

To answer your question. Breathing takes place whether you think about it or not! So thinking about it just clutters the mind, unless you are doing the above when it focuses the mind.
Title: Re: Who is Practicing the IIH?
Post by: Kichara on February 16, 2012, 02:50:02 PM
1. Concentrate on one object till you attain it.
2. No, it means to be sexually moderate. A good schedule would be no more than one ejaculation per week.
3. I noticed a very powerful intuition develop during the first step. It depends more on what you have done in past lives than what step you are on. I do not remember if you begin working with the Vital Force in Step 3, but if you do, that often reveals latent abilities in an apparently more rapid way than thought control does, though I would attribute more to Thought Control, personally.
Title: Re: Who is Practicing the IIH?
Post by: charles2010 on February 17, 2012, 12:09:45 AM
Thank you for your replies, everyone. What I mean with Vom is Vacancy of Mind. And about the breathing exercise, I do it too as my object meditation (in Buddhism it is called Anapanasati). In doing Anapanasati we must focus on our nose, lung/chest, abdomen. And it is believe work best for calming wandering mind. So it is perfect for person who always get his mind wandering all the times (Vitakha Carita), as I am. :)
Title: Re: Who is Practicing the IIH?
Post by: abc on February 17, 2012, 04:25:28 AM
Hey DoF, its good you are asking questions and its normal as there is not enough described about step I and what happens during it

during thought control,you first watch your thoughts,then proceed to the blackness(i call it that but thats the period of no thought or very  little thought),then the flashing or discharging of the eyes(flashing colours and random objects seen even though your eyes are closed) and finally an empty mind.

Where did you get this order of events?

Make your key objective during the Step I meditation 'Relaxation' and 'Keeping VoM'. Without Relaxation you will find it incredibly difficult to reach VoM (Void of Mind).

Not only will relaxation make the meditation more pleasant and thus you will spend time in it more, but you will notice that if you are tensing any part of your physical body or your mind (eg: by trying to follow some kind of order of events, move to next stage in that order etc) then you can not keep the 'Void of Mind'. With every muscle in your body you physically tense a thought pops up into your mind (you heard of rolfing massage? when they press different parts of your body and you have a thought form pop up in your mind that is stored in the tension of the body.). So your job is to develop a habit of totally relaxing during the meditation - both the physical body and the mind.

Physical Body is relaxed by you 1) Noticing the tensions and 2) Intending to relax them or physically relaxing the muslce that is tense 3) Sitting in a position that is relaxing (use a cushion, make sure you are sitting comfortably). Mind is relaxed bt 1) Not Trying to Do Anything (not following any order of events, not analysing what is happening, not doing anything). And you do this until you begin to 'Notice the VoM' after that you start to use your mind to 'Keep' the VoM (this doesn't really tense the mind, it focuses it).

What happens is the VoM comes and goes. It is the space between one thought and the next. If you sit down take a pen and then tell yourself 'I'l notice the next thought that pops up in my mind and I'l write it down.' - you will experience VoM for a second or two as while your mind is 'awaiting for next thought' (being aware), no thought actually comes. Then after a couple of seconds a thought will come 'Did i miss the next thought?' or whatever.

If you are very early in your meditation then what is likely to happen is that your stream of thoughts is like a gushing river and you are not used to experiencing VoM. Thus you will have all kinds of things pop up in your mind from verbal thoughts ('how many minutes do i have left of this? what is for dinner? etc) to flashes of scenes (usually outside scenes, a street corner may flash for a split of a second) and anything else.

This is especially true if you are not Relaxed. As you keep meditating this gushing river of thoughts will begin to slow down (if you relax during meditations, if you tense up it may never slow down). And as it slows down you will begin to notice the VoM, the space that is between the verbal thoughts).

Now, I found the easiest way to notice the VoM is to meditate with beads. Ideally you want as long string as possible and not a circular one. I use shoelaces (long ones) and simply tie many knots on them (mine fits about 40 knots or so). Then as you sit in meditation as soon as you spotted a thought, or an image, move your thumb onto the next knot, and so on. If you do not use a bead system like this then the mind can fall asleep in a way. If you use the bead system then as soon as a new thought pops up, you move the bead and that remids your mind to stay alert.

Once you begin to notice the 'VoM', you will next soon enough notice that you have some kind of 'power' over it. Specifically that you can 'keep' the VoM for a period of time. And the way you do that is by simply 'Relaxing & Intending' for there to be no thought in your mind, then you notice this VoM appears and you simply stay in it. At very beginning stages of meditation you don't notice this power as you don't even notice the VoM. Then you notice this power and start using it, and you can keep VoM for maybe 1-3 seconds. Then you can using it in each meditation and then you can keep VoM for longer, and longer. And then you can keep VoM for minutes and so on.

The goal of Step I is to reach a state where your power is strong enough to keep the VoM for 10-30 minutes without a single thought entering. This is quite some power and so it takes a few months to build up.

You may also notice that when you are in VoM your experience of time kind of stops and you don't know how long as passed since you entered VoM or indeed anything else that is going. This is because you are preventing the thoughts about time or anything else from entering your mind. And so if you are sitting in a one hour meditation and have multiple VoM experiences during it, lets say 10 experiences of VoM each lasting 4 minutes, then the 1 hour meditation will feel like 20 minutes.

don't know if that helps or not


My question is the narration of your thoughts(you telling yourself to calm down,observe the thoughts and telling yourself to breathe)are these classified as thoughts as well or just the memories and trains of thought?

I classify these as 1) Thoughts, and 2) Intentions. Remind yourself that you need to keep the body and mind, both, relaxed, and this can help to cut down a lot of these. Remind yourself over and over again when you experienc the mental flow of thoughts has suddenly increased, and relax over and over again.

Because i tend to tell myself to breathe and just observe the thought alot when i'm trying this exercise,is the downfall when which they mention in the commentary(for step 1) and if so will time elapse this or should i stop telling myself to breathe and concentrate as a whole?

You should stop telling yourself this, but in a way you can't do that so easily as part of this is the thoughts popping up. To be able to stop this, you need to be able to have the Power over VoM which comes later. So for now, just remind yourself that your key objective is to simply sit and wait for the time to pass. And whenever you notice a thought, an instruction, or an intention to do anything, move your thumb onto the next knot on your bead line.

This will go very quickly the more you get used to meditation. You'l develop a habit when you simply sit down, take a couple of breaths, and the VoM kicks in, and next you simply start developing the power to keep it for longer periods of time.

--Another point on Practice

The Key Goal of Step I is to devolp this Power over VoM. There are many ways to do this, and if you use multiple ways you will find it much easier.

The essential way of course is Meditation with eyes closed as per stadard in the book. But use this to speed up your Step I time:

1. VoM Power Exercise
- carry the bead line (shoelace with knots) with you during the day, and if you are on the bus, train or even at home feeling bored, take the shoelace out and do a VoM Power Exercise. This is how. You basically only move onto the next knot, if you have noticed the VoM. As soon as you have noticed it, keep it for a second or so, then move your thumb onto the next knot. As soon as you moved onto the next knot ask yourself 'Is the mind clear?' and see if the mind is clear or if there is another thought that popped in. If another thought has popped in, you do not move onto the next knot, you relax and ask yourself again 'Is the mind clear?' and then see if the mind is clear. As soon as you noticed the VoM (no thought) then you can move onto the next bead.

There is a lot of neat exercises you can do with shoelace beads. Feel free to invent some yourself. Example: You can move your hand slowly from the first knot onto the others for the duration that you keep the VoM. And as soon as you notice a thought appear, you stop and see how many knots you have gone through. If you know you move at speed of one second per knot, and suddenly a thought broke your VoM - then you simply check how many knots you have moved up already. If it is 10 knots then you held your VoM for 10 seconds, if you finished your shoelace (and make it a long shoelace, 40 knots at least) then you know you are close to 1 minute (quite a progress). Everything counts as a thought here, especially 'How many knots have I already passed?' (this is the regular thought to keep out of your VoM, as soon as you notice it, your VoM has crashed, count the knots, start again.

2. Breathing Very Slowly while standing up
- breathe in very slowly as slow as possible (but not so that it is uncomfortable) and then breathe out just as slow as possible (there is no holding of breath here). Your objective is to focus on making the breath very slow. Not only is this a powerful pranayama exercise that will raise your energy and keep you healthy, but you can experience VoM here very easily, as the mind is focused on the breathing.

3. Tai chi or qigong routine.
- the essense of qigong is Relaxing and emptying the mind or fixing it upon a single thought or image. A little routine

4. Trataka meditation
- in the evening if you are too tired to meditate, trataka can be quite fun. Turn off all your lights, tun on your phone (if you have a big screen like iphone), open up a drawing app. The entire phone is now full of white background and is shining light on you, draw a circle in it and put a dot in the circle. Then stare at it, reminding yourself to relax every few seconds or so, notice the thoughts that appear. Stare don't blink for 5 minutes. Then keep the phone on just as it is, shining, but close your eyes. Now with your hands move your phone around so its light shines on your face at different gradients (a little bit of light, a lot of light). What you will notice is the afterimage of the circle appear in before your closed eyes (the retina burn image). Freeze the phone and simply stare at it. Then you can open your eyes and look at a space before you, again move the phone light around to get an effect, and if that image then appears before your eyes in the space before you simply stare at it. This is a fun concentration exercise and works from the very first try. The image will jump around but it doesn't matter. The key here is concetration and relaxation.

5. Relaxing During the Day
- whatever you are doing, notice the physical tension of the body and relax, really really relax like you are heavy, like everything in the world is fine. The more you do this during the day, as you work, as you type on computer and so on, the calmer your mind will be.

6. Mind Energy
- anything that aims to still the prana (uncalm prana = a lot of thoughts in the mind). Prana is the vital energy of the body and the mind. Yoga, Breathing Exercises, Relaxation Exericises, Vegetarian Diet, Less Alcohol/Drugs, lots of things help with this.

5. A million other exercises
- any exercise which you can do which either 1) Consciously focuses your mind on 1 thought, image, idea, (i.e. concentration exercise, but make sure you practice these while at the same time relaxing) or 2) the opposite (like self-invented Power over VoM exercise above, also practiced relaxing), 3) Any exercise in which you train to relax

6. Earplugs
- noise can seriously disturb the mind and make it more difficult to reach the state of VoM and to keep it. If you live in a noisy environment, plug earplugs in the mornig and keep them until you go to sleep (if you can) or for any other period of time. And see how different the day becomes. I use earplugs as a normal now, to cut out 70% of the noise, to keep the mind calmer.

7. Silence Fasts
- basically when you do not talk to anyone (not in person nor online) for 24 hours. Notice the effects this has on your mind, record them in your diary.

8. Technology Fasts
- no technology of any kind for 24 hours (no tv, no phone, no laptop). Notice the effect on your mind, record in your diary, see if you can use this to speed up your Step I time.

All of these things can help hugely with Step I, as you will notice what disturbs the mind and what you can do about it, and what relaxes and stills the mind, but Meditation is still the essential.

The test for Step I is to sit down in mediation, and after all these efforts, to notice the VoM and to keep it for 10-30 minutes.

The more changes you make in your lifestyle to reflect a calmer prana, the easier it will be to pass Step I and the faster you will pass it. But don't think that meditation is the only thing you have to help you, you can turn your entire lifestyle so that it helps you.
Title: Re: Who is Practicing the IIH?
Post by: Demon of flame on February 18, 2012, 03:19:52 PM
thanks for the replies and to abc,your words are inspiring and helped me lot.I shall implement the methods you have posted as alot of them are quite relevant to me.

thanks again,one step closer to attaining my goal.
DoF
Title: Re: Who is Practicing the IIH?
Post by: abc on February 18, 2012, 09:10:27 PM
thanks for the replies and to abc,your words are inspiring and helped me lot.I shall implement the methods you have posted as alot of them are quite relevant to me.

thanks again,one step closer to attaining my goal.
DoF

sure buddy, we are on the same path afterall. make sure you sign up to the IIH Forum i posted reference to, everyone there is on IIH and tons of really helpful stuff :)
Title: Re: Who is Practicing the IIH?
Post by: Akenu on February 24, 2012, 06:36:50 PM
Your end goal in practicing the mental exercises from IIH is to experience this:

(http://www.melchizedeksmp3club.com/picture/SECRETSIIH.jpg)

Please don't tell anyone I told you


or this ;-)

(http://www.patinkas.co.uk/Merkaba_Feature_Article/a_Metatrons_cube_bg_shadow.jpg)
Title: Re: Who is Practicing the IIH?
Post by: Demon of flame on February 28, 2012, 02:19:47 PM
i have a question about the IIH,its rather immature granted i'm almost 19 it's not surprising,my question is by undergoing the IIH one learns about magick and in turn will give up everything worldy.

Yet this is a sticking point for me as i have just entered the prime of my life and will be giving it all up(said it was immature),by that i mean i will be righting my wrongs and judging my own actions to the harshest they can be judged.Does this mean i'll give up life as a human? Does this mean i will not enjoy the dirty pleasures of life such as sex,intoxication and in general the 7 sins(yet in truth i only desire not to lose my youth or waste it in a sense,by becoming old too fast)

Is this just me being silly wanting to be a little impure,because i've noticed over my time practicing my words have become deeper and my values more defined yet i still have the desire to go out clubbing and well be young while i am young.My focus has sky rocketed yet in this pursuit i've noticed that i differ from regular teens in the sense that jokes others laugh at i find silly or not interesting,the things they do don't appeal me,i don't look at this world the same way i used to,i see pain and suffering,yet all i want to do is help those i see.

in conclusion all i ask is,will my personality (not traits) change? Will i in essence lose who i have become to become a mage or will i adapt and alter my personality to continue my pursuit in magick?
DoF   
Title: Re: Who is Practicing the IIH?
Post by: Searcher on February 28, 2012, 03:01:19 PM
You made I larf you did.

Dof, the name of the game is ‘balance’ but if you want to give it all up then it is up to you! No one will say that you will not change but without it you will also change over the next few years or so as you mature even more and your priorities change to meet your needs. Most find the time to do both but some do take the righteous approach (I didn’t and still don’t!) The skill is developing while maintaining the essence of who you are?
Title: Re: Who is Practicing the IIH?
Post by: abc on February 29, 2012, 01:17:39 PM
Yet this is a sticking point for me as i have just entered the prime of my life and will be giving it all up(said it was immature),by that i mean i will be righting my wrongs and judging my own actions to the harshest they can be judged.Does this mean i'll give up life as a human? Does this mean i will not enjoy the dirty pleasures of life such as sex,intoxication and in general the 7 sins(yet in truth i only desire not to lose my youth or waste it in a sense,by becoming old too fast)

in conclusion all i ask is,will my personality (not traits) change? Will i in essence lose who i have become to become a mage or will i adapt and alter my personality to continue my pursuit in magick?
DoF   

1. the giving up part can happen automatically, it won't feel like giving up. for example you may simply start losing interest in material things and material pleasures. as you experience worlds of dreams or astral, suddenly material world loses its appeal by comparison, and so your priorities may naturally shift and so will your interests. i gave everything up and live in a room now which i leave once a week for a couple of hours (sometimes i don't leave the room for weeks), and i'm only 28. 2 years ago i barely spent any time in my room, i was either having sex or making money. it doesn't feel like giving up at all. study occult and meditate. there's an occult writer who said 'you can travel the universe and learn all its wonderful secrets, without ever leaving your room' or something like that.

2. i think 2 things can happen to personality. if you are not careful your ego can get inflated and you will think yourself to be better than others, to know more than others, or to know more 'truth' than others, if you look at some posters on this forum you can easily see who such people are - as they enter an argument very easily with others, they try to defend their views and opinions. these are people with infalted egos. then there are others who are humble, no matter what you say to them, call them a lier, a theif, or a sinner, they will not retaliate against you at all. these are the people who have a leash on their egos, they control their egos more or less.

Occult inflates the ego as you suddenly get to learn and experience what very few people ever will in their life. So you gotta remind yourself to be humble, remind yourself that no matter what you know, you are still an idiot compared to who you will be 10 years later, be kind to the idiot who is you now - don't think that you know now, for you do not know. And so be kind to everyone.

And so it may happen that you become 'kinder' towards others. Depending on which path in occult you follow, if you follow Theurgy then your 1 goal is to live like a 'pure' god - which means never hurting another person in what you say, do, and eventually think. So you start to watch and control your words, your actions and your thoughts. This purifies you and develops your will power and other abilities.

According to buddhism 'desires is maintained by misunderstanding'. The more you understand the 'truth' in things, the more you understand how desire hurts you and keeps you in 'cycles of repetitive' behaviours, which in turn actually limit the extent to which you enjoy your life. The man who is driven and moved by his desire is not a free man. Check out the Devil card on the Tarot (golden dawn edition) it is of a woman and man chained by their desires, they are captives, slaves of their desires. Thats why one of the key goals in Buddhism is to develop 'Right Understanding of Truth about Reality', and as you develop different understandings desires simply fall away like hot rocks which you no longer want to touch and burn yourself with.

- dont think about these things too much, simply do what your soul is seeking, which i assume is to study occult and practice it. But pick a positive path in the occult, for there are many negative paths in it. For me the positive path is that of Theurgy.
Title: Re: Who is Practicing the IIH?
Post by: Kichara on March 04, 2012, 09:04:16 PM
You will basically still be yourself, but you will slowly(or quickly) lose the things that hold you back and make life harder.

It hasn't stopped me from drinking, smoking, and screwing.

I seem to make good, consistent progress too.


View this fear as your Animal Self, your "ego", trying to deter you from your path. because it ill make it so that it is truly YOU who decides when to drink or smoke or have sex, etc. where as in most people it is their ego, and their myriad of desires that control when they want to do these things.
Title: Re: Who is Practicing the IIH?
Post by: alg on March 17, 2012, 07:56:25 AM
Desire to study IIH and develop yourself is also a desire :D
Title: Re: Who is Practicing the IIH?
Post by: Honved on March 24, 2012, 06:46:08 PM
Have not tried it although it seems to work for others it simply never intrigued me.
Title: Re: Who is Practicing the IIH?
Post by: charles2010 on April 07, 2012, 06:18:27 AM
Hi everyone. I want to ask about
1. In step I Phisycal training when we do magic breathing and food/ water (based on akasha principle), can we visualize our desire (health, happy, etc) in pure white light form ?

2. In step VI Astral training. It said if we master this exercise we can master 4 elements in 3 planes. So in this step can someone do  amazing job like throwing fireball, fill empty glass with water (with accumulation water element only) and something like in Fairy Tale ?

3. In step VII Phisycal Training can We make our elemental being like Earth Golem to protect us from our enemies' attack ?

4. I read somewhere that : if we master step VIII only gods can deny us (if they can !  :cool:). Is it true ?

If you feel my question number 2,3,4 too irrational please ignore them. But please answer my question number 1 if you know the answer. thanks. :)
Title: Re: Who is Practicing the IIH?
Post by: Iatros on April 07, 2012, 03:08:08 PM
1. You should be visualizing it as pure white light. The white light is really a force which comes before the formation elements and is therefore very receptive to your thoughts and can be easily molded to contain the virtue that you have chosen. The white light should, of course, contain the feeling and mental qualities of your chosen virtue.

2. In theory, yes. Practically, those abilities will take a lot of extra training, and as you've noticed Bardon gives no real instruction as to how to do those things. They can indeed be done - and by the time you have developed such abilities you will have a more mature sense of when it is appropriate to use them. Remember that self-realization is the aim here, and not powers.

3. First, what enemies? While "fairy tale" effects are possible, remember that you do not live in a fairy tale. But yes. You can make things to protect you, although I would not expect to have your very own golem anytime soon, for the same reasons that I gave in answer to 2.

4. Not exactly. What you accrue through magic is spiritual authority and the knowledge needed to exercise it properly. You will eventually have the spiritual authority to influence a great many spirits... but keep in mind that spiritual authority is a product of the equilibrium and evolution of your soul, and that a balanced and evolved soul probably will not be engaging in activities which other spiritual forces wish to "deny." Following a true magical path places you in your correct spiritual orbit and harmonizes you with the universe. This precludes you from influencing, through your authority, things which your True Self has no business influencing according to Divine Law. Other Gods obviously fall into this category, as you effectively owe your very existence to one of them in the first place, and they are effectively one and the same even if they are perceived in the lower planes as separate.

5. I know that you did not ask a fifth question, but I'd like to remind you to be careful not to get caught up in and distracted by the higher steps of the IIH. The step that you are on can push you forward faster than the steps ahead can pull you.

Keep up your good work, and best of luck to you.
Title: Re: Who is Practicing the IIH?
Post by: charles2010 on April 09, 2012, 06:37:10 AM
thanks for your answer.  :)
Title: Re: Who is Practicing the IIH?
Post by: alg on April 12, 2012, 08:20:50 PM
 numbers are fun :D 1  is in 2, 1 and 2 is in 3 and 1 2 3 is in 4
Title: Re: Who is Practicing the IIH?
Post by: charles2010 on April 12, 2012, 08:53:59 PM
yeah :D. I ask those questions (2,3,4) because I just too curios about it.

And now I want to ask another question :
Does Vital Force (in IIH) have the same meaning with Qi (in Qigong / Body Energy Arts). If it is right then it's very excellent to Hermetic Scholar like us. First, we learn Vital Force (Qi), then The Four Elements, and finally we learn The Two Fluids. Wow ! It's marvelous. IIH not only lead us to become a Legendary Chinese Kung Fu Heroes who possesses a great amount of Qi (like one in Film Condor Heroes, etc) but also to become A Demigod (and maybe The God Itself !)  :cool:
Title: Re: Who is Practicing the IIH?
Post by: alg on April 13, 2012, 09:28:41 AM
Charles when u read about introspection in step 1. The IIH in my opinion have been slighly edited as  text often  is interpreted via personality of translator.

In my opinion introspection especially when it comes to passive attributes is better done with Love and attitude of neutral observer :)



Title: Re: Who is Practicing the IIH?
Post by: Akenu on April 13, 2012, 09:43:27 AM
Charles when u read about introspection in step 1. The IIH in my opinion have been slighly edited as  text often  is interpreted via personality of translator.

In my opinion introspection especially when it comes to passive attributes is better done with Love and attitude of neutral observer :)


I could make comparison as I have the Czech version at home (it was published by his son, Lumir).
I just have a very weak memory, so could you please send me a PM so I will remember it?
Title: Re: Who is Practicing the IIH?
Post by: Cutios3 on April 27, 2012, 05:25:36 PM

Thank you very much for the book. 

With peace profound,
~ Cutios
Title: Re: Who is Practicing the IIH?
Post by: Faxman on July 16, 2012, 11:07:53 AM
@Akenu : I have just discovered your blog. Very interesting indeed.

Thanks for sharing your experience.
Title: Re: Who is Practicing the IIH?
Post by: Akenu on July 16, 2012, 12:52:32 PM
@Akenu : I have just discovered your blog. Very interesting indeed.

Thanks for sharing your experience.

Thanks, I am glad you like it :)
Title: Re: Who is Practicing the IIH?
Post by: Kichara on August 12, 2012, 08:32:45 PM
Hi everyone. I want to ask about
1. In step I Phisycal training when we do magic breathing and food/ water (based on akasha principle), can we visualize our desire (health, happy, etc) in pure white light form ?

2. In step VI Astral training. It said if we master this exercise we can master 4 elements in 3 planes. So in this step can someone do  amazing job like throwing fireball, fill empty glass with water (with accumulation water element only) and something like in Fairy Tale ?

1. that is fine, just be sure it is coming from the "heavens" and not from your body.

2. Nope.
Title: Re: Who is Practicing the IIH?
Post by: charles2010 on August 13, 2012, 09:37:42 PM
hi, everyone. I want to ask you again :
in IIH step V Physical Training (levitation). Bardon teaches us how to levitate. I think it is the key to Body Light Skill Techinique (Qing Gong). What do you think ?

and I want to thank you to everyone who answered my previous questions.
Title: Re: Who is Practicing the IIH?
Post by: Kichara on August 14, 2012, 09:11:53 AM
What does the "Body Light Skill Technique" do? I am unfamiliar with that name.
Title: Re: Who is Practicing the IIH?
Post by: Neeros on August 14, 2012, 04:07:49 PM
What does the "Body Light Skill Technique" do? I am unfamiliar with that name.

Taken from a Q&A On the Shaolin Wahnam website:


Quote
You mentioned in your book, “The Art of Chi Kung”, a method of training to enable the exponent to jump very high. This sounds like an incredible skill, which would be very helpful when facing a large opponent.

— Christian, USA

Answer

I believe qinggong (or “hangkung” in Cantonese pronunciation), which means the art of lightness, was real. Qinggong enables the practitioner to jump very high and run very fast. My master, Sifu Ho Fatt Nam, told me the following story which happened to him.

When he was young, he trained with an old master, whose name he did not mention. Every morning the old master and my sifu would enter a forest and run around a circle of marked trees. They started together, but the old master would soon be ahead and then disappear. Next, the old master, having completed the circle, would come up from behind, overtake my sifu, and hit him as he passed, shouting “Hi, young man, why are you so slow?”. This happened everyday for months.

One day, annoyed that he had been constantly hit, my sifu refused to train further. “You said you would teach me kungfu, but all you do is to hit me everyday,” my sifu complained. “Yes, I'm teaching you kungfu, and very good kungfu indeed,” the old master replied.

My sifu explained to me that due to his ignorance then, his idea of kungfu was just kungfu forms, which is what most people today conceptualize too. So that morning he refused to run with the old master in the forest. The old master asked him again, and again, and my sifu also noticed his simu, the wife of the old master, silently indicated to him from behind that he should continue his training. But my sifu refused.

“Right, follow me and I'll show you what kungfu I am teaching you.” The old master, with his long pipe in his hand, led my sifu to the back of the house. The surrounding wall was about ten feet high, lined with pieces of glass on top to deter thieves climbing over. The old master tugged the end of his long robe under his waist slash.

“Now, don't blink you eyes,” the old man said. He lowered his shoulders and in the next instant he was up in the air, did a somersault above the wall, scraped some pieces of glass away with his pipe, and landed elegantly on one foot on the wall above in the pattern “Golden Cockerel Stands Solitarily.” Then the old master jumped down from the wall and landed on the ground without a sound.

My sifu suddenly realized that the old master had been teaching him qinggong. He quickly knelt down and asked for forgiveness for his rudeness, begging the old master to continue teaching him. But the old master rejected, believing in an old tradition that if a student refused after being given three chances, he was not destined to learn the art.

Pitying my sifu, his simu taught him a kungfu set called “Seven Stars”, which was excellent for a small sized person against a big sized opponent. It was when my sifu taught me this kungfu set, that he told me this story.

Qinggong has many other benefits besides fighting a large opponent. On the other hand, there are many other ways, which are much easier to learn than qinggong, to fight large opponents. All kungfu styles incorporate some of these ways, and some kungfu styles, like Taijiquan, Wing Choon Kungfu and Monkey Style, are particularly noted for this aspect.

Title: Re: Who is Practicing the IIH?
Post by: Melchizedek on August 22, 2012, 09:03:02 PM
hi, everyone. I want to ask you again :
in IIH step V Physical Training (levitation). Bardon teaches us how to levitate. I think it is the key to Body Light Skill Techinique (Qing Gong). What do you think ?

and I want to thank you to everyone who answered my previous questions.

He doesn't teach levitation, he says if you want to devote yourself entirely to the mastering of the air principle, that you could theoritaclly learn to levitate. What he really says in that chapter, is that the the true magician wants an overall mastery of heremetics and wouldn't watse his/her time learning just to levitate.

If you want to learn to levitate, you have to eradicate all your negative emotions, that you personally have on the mental and astral plane of your being in regards to the "air element". If you can do that, then you would be able to fly through the air, simply by pore breathing the air element into yourself,  until the pressure builds up inside yourself, then like a balloon, you would float on the air.  You could command yourself to fly through the air, walk on the water, stop the wind, create a hurricane, stop a hurricane, master any musical instrument, hypnotize people with your speech, speak any foreign language(?), ,
Title: Re: Who is Practicing the IIH?
Post by: Melchizedek on August 22, 2012, 11:00:54 PM
Step 1- Thought Control Exercises- Practice the first 3 exercsies, until you feel a power emanating from your solar plexus area. When you've achieved this you'll have achieved the purpose of the thoguht control exercises.

On the recording of the positive/negative characteristics. Meditate on your positive/negative characrteristics and see how they emanate from each of the four particular elements(fire, air, water, earth). Read it over often and contemplate and see and experience how your behaviour traits are directly related to too much of anyone particular element. When you've done this, you've developed the basis for your entire journey to mastery of the 4 elements, which is the objective of the entire book

On pore breathing, sit and feel your body brething in life force, through your skin. At first you'll struggle too much, using a brush on the skin will help compensate for your lack of proper understanding, until you get the feel of the exercise.

On casting vital energy into water, your food, etc. Visualize your mind calling forth energy from out of the ether, impgrenate this visualzied energy with your desire and direct into the food, water with your imagination. Even if your a beginner, you'll taste the difference in your food or water, when you drink it or place it on your face
Title: Re: Who is Practicing the IIH?
Post by: Melchizedek on August 22, 2012, 11:19:22 PM
Step 2- Controlling the sub-conscious- This is the same thing as the the thought control exercise, when you've mastered it, you'll feel a power emanating from your solar plexus area. The best way to do it, is to use the left hand for ten's and the right hand for single digits. Look ahead in your mind's eye and repeat aloud your formula for change. Make mental note of if and when you get distracted, but continue on to 40 times anyhow.

The 5 senses exrecises are the same thing. After you've visualized or done the auditory exrecise corretcly, you'll feel a power emanating from your solar plexus area and you'll experience your visualzied intent as if it' really real, in front of your mental vision. If you get distracted while doing it, continue on for 5 minutes and make a mental note of it.

Do the same for each of the exercises brushing aside mentally any distractions from any of the other senses. For instance, whne doing the auditory exercise, it's common fro the visual aspect of it to pop up in your mind. Even if you get distracted by it, just make a mental note of it and bring your mind back to the exercise for 5 minutes.

Keep a clock in your view so you can glance at it to see how long you've progressed. You'll find on all these mental exercises, if you go for more than 3 minutes, a power will begin emanating from your solar plexus area. This power is the exact same on all the mental exercises, throughout the entire book just accesssing it from a different mental viewpoint.

On transmuting the elements, it's a good idea to make a split screen in your mind, the positive characteristic on one side and the negtaive on the other. In this way you'll literally feel and experience the negative chnage into the positive, as you will it to chnage from the negative to the positive. Even if you do it for just a little while, you will feel your behaviour change, with no effort on your part. Your changing your ingrained behaviour at the root core of where it was created, the element itself.

On the Asana position, it does make a difference in how effective the exercises work. I say from my experience that you do acquire occult powers from just sitting in it. This is probaly why it makes all the exercises more effective, when you sit in it and do the exercises. By sitting in it, I think you open up a doorway to the proper way to do all the mental exercises. This is just my opinion, but it gives everything a definite boost.

On going to sleep with the purest thoughts, I never do this, so I can't comment on it.
Title: Re: Who is Practicing the IIH?
Post by: Kichara on August 23, 2012, 08:44:35 PM
I do not know if the levitation is the same as the Body Light Skill, but I do not feel like it is the same.
Title: Re: Who is Practicing the IIH?
Post by: Melchizedek on August 25, 2012, 01:59:07 PM
Step 3- Here you are combinig the 3 senses together at one time. I found that this was a bit tricky, because in the previous step I found ti very diffucult to focus on just one sense at a time. I found that if I focused on the auditory sound, such as ocean waves, I couldn't help but make a picture of ocean waves as I listened to the sound of them.

Here your combining the 3 senses at once, so I would visualize a Lamborghini in my mind, hear the roar of the engine and then experience the feeling of standing next to at, all at the same time. I would visualize a pile of money, hear the sound of the bills thimbing them through my hands as I experienced the feeling of having so much mney in front of me.

I found that once again, if I made it to 2-3 minutes with brushing away distracting thoughts that a power would begin emanating from my solar plexus area. Make it 5 minutes and this power became intense, Make it 10 minutes and I was out of my mind with a lust for power. This is what it felt like, a seething energy of magic getting stronger.

I then would think of landscapes, the great wall of china, downtown london, hawaii, exotic locations, a vineyard in Italy. Combining the 3 senses, all at once, while watching the clock from the corner of my eye to see how long I could make it. Make it 2-3 minutes and you begin to bring forth this magic power.

I tried North Korea , to visualzie it and it was almost as if there existed an energy field in theether that prevented me from doing it. Same with Muslim countries like Iran, very, very diffucult to do, resistance in the etheric plane. Almost as if you could travel there and spy on them, like remote viewing.

If you practice this step, you will realize that you are developing remote viewing powers, because it will feel as if you are transported to the location and that you can see what's going on there. Basically, because that's exactly waht you are doing.

I found doing the 3 senses on animals worked great. Do  a cat, if you go for more than 5 minutes, you literally become the cat and you can feel what it's like to be one. A squirrel, a sheep, etc. etc.

I found that doing people made me uneasy, I invented people to visualize. You will start to realize that you could control the minds of people, by doing this exercise. So I visualized Chinese people, Black people, etc., etc.

I woould work with this until you feel as if you are the thing that you are concentrating on. It will happen if you stick with the exercise.

On the beginning of the inhaling of the elements, I found that sitting in the Asana position, like he says in the book is a must. It makes a huge difference in the mastery of the exercise. It just isn't that effective if your lying down or slouching.

On the fire element, sitting in the Asana position, I would begin visualzing fire all around me. Doing this I could feel an almost grainy feeling entering my body as I do the pore breathing. I found that by visualzing myself inhaling the fire element, it worked perfect and it became real. You will experience heat and you will begin to get warm

Did 7 breathes in, then 7 out. Then 8 in, 8 out.

On this I was a bit uneasy and find that I would only retain the fire element inside myself for a second or 2. I know that this is wrong.
I figure you should be able to hold it in yourself for a minute or 2, with no stress or uneasyness

When I first started this exercise I en through all the elements, did it for a half hour or so and it was too much. Ii thought that I was going to die. Too much stress/anxiety and it wouldn't go away for hours.

So I would reccommend not over doing it.

Whne you continue practicing the fire element, it's almost like your in some place of damnation. It becomes more and more vivid, the fire. You surround yourself with it and by stikcing with it for more than 3 minutes, you begin to build up this magic power coming from out of your solar plexus area.

The air element is like a swirling mass of I don't know, helium or something because you will feel lighter when you start to visualize being surrounded by it.

I would do 7 breathes in, 7 out. Once again only retaining it inside myself for a second or 2. Still, it worked and doing it for more than 3 minutes built up power from the solar plexus area.

The water element has this damp, sticky feel to it.

There's a weird feeling from all the elements when you pore breathe them. It's almost like doing a drug of some type.

Going through all of them, the inhaling in and out gives you a supremely powerful feeling of being a magician. Like there's nothing that you can't do.

You definitely have to work your way up through this exercise, because unlike the previous mental exercises, if you do too much of it too soon, it will bring about the beginnings of a nervous tension and feeling of being overwhelmed.

Almost like you want to kill yourself.  This is what I felt like doing whne I first did the exercise and did it too much, too soon.

I believe that this is either a test or a warning from the brotherhood of light about progressing too soon too quickly and that you have to be deemed worthy to get past this exercise.

I havn;t really done the earth element too much, because I get distracted so badly by the first 3, that I lose interest in going through all 4 in one sitting.

The earth element does have a heavy feel to it, like being surrounded/buried in dirt and there is a sweet magic to it, to the feel of the earth element.

Accumamlation of vital energy. The entire body is easy to do. The indiviual parts  require more concentration, such as drawing the energy into your right foot and then sending it out with your imagination for 20 miles.

You definitely want to sit in the Asana position for this exercise.

I found that in drawing the vital energy into the indivual body parts and internal organs, with the organs you can send the energy out across the earth and feel a radiating power emnataing from the organ. With the body parts, such as the hand, foot it's not as powerful.

So I would do 7 breathes of vital energy, directly from the Universe into my left foot, retain it there and then with my mind send it out as far as I could. Uusally visaulizing an ability to do it of about 10-20 miles. Then go to the right foot and do the same.Then I work my way up to the legs, midsection, interanl organs, hands, etc., etc.

The one complaint I have about the book, is that they don't supply an anatomy chart so that you can know of all the internal organs to bring the energy into.

I've been doing this for several years and there are intrenal organs I havn't even drawn one bit of the elements or vital energy into.

On drawing the vital energy into a room for charging it for specific purposes. Sitting in the Asana position, makes this more powerful and the energy you call forth more effective. This is what I have found anyway.

You need to compress the energy and make it compact as you charge the room. So you visualize calling forth the vital energy from the  Universe with your imagnation and fill the room with it, add the desire you want to impregnate it with as you do this and the  compress it and mentally command it to stay in the room.

I found that this works exactly as he says in the book. He talks about healing people with the vital energy. I've tried to heal myself from various things, but it mostly is happening on a mental level, not on the physical like he talks about in the book.

As far as healing someone from a serious illness, I guess maybe you could draw the energy from the Universe, compact it with your desire and then  send it into the person.

I've done this on myself and I can feel the energy entering me, but I havn't wokred with it enough to say I can heal people.

Title: Re: Who is Practicing the IIH?
Post by: Melchizedek on August 26, 2012, 07:04:49 AM
Step 4-This is where you really take a quantum leap from experiencing those things that your mentally concentrating on and actually becoming a part of them.

In the first part of this step he talks about finding the center of the thing that you are visualizing and concentrating on and then projecting yourself into the center of it. I found that this works amazingly well.

Take a picture hanging on your wall. You look at the picture, memorize what it looks like and then use your visual, auditory and kinestitic abilites and make a real live duplicate of it in your mind. As you do this you direct your consciousness to the center of the picture and then actually mentally project your entire consciousness into this center.

Ii find that when I do this, I become the painting. Then I concentrate on this center and make my prescence, within the picture even more powerful, so that I can look out of the painting and see myself sitting acrosss from it, from inside the picture.

This is amazing remote viewing powers that you are developing here. I can even change what the pciture represents, by imparting a desire through my will, into my consciousness as I am sitting within the center of the picture.

Looking at myself from the center of the picture on the wall, is like looking through some type of concave lense. I see a small picture of myself, through the center of the picture as I'm sitting across from it.

To do this step you only ned to refine your ability to make it 3-5 minutes combining the 3 main senses of sight, sound and feeling. Ffor something like a picture you can just do the sight and feeling. Once you've done this, you bring your attention to the center of the picture and simply by focusing on the center you literally project your entire being into this center point.

Listen you will really become the thing that you are projecting into. The more you shrink your prescence inside this center, until as he says in the book your the size of an atom, the more powerfull you will exepreince this mental exercise.

This is what I have found from doing it

He talks about animals and it's the same thing. Try doing a cat, going through the 3 senses, project your consciousnes into the center point of the cat and you will become the cat. You will experience what it's like to be a cat.

You will see out of it's eyes, you wil move in the body of a cat, you will look at all your surroundsings from the viewpoint of the cat.

I found that whne you make it saeveral minutes doing this, you literally project yourself from your mental body to the mnetal body of the cat.

I found that doing this on myself, you can change negative beliefs

Find your center, then inside that samll point of your center project the new thinking patterns that you desire inside yourself. It works. With practice you could infleunce the thinking of yourself or anyone for that matter, even from 1,000's of miles away.

You only have to concentrate on the three senses representing the person that your thinking of and then find his/her center, whcih is done by bringing your attention to finding the center and you will become that person.

You will know all that they are thinking, you will know all that they have done. Using a magic mirror you can look into the future through the Akasah principle and see all that the future will hold for them.


The 2 methods for element accumalation. I found that doing both gives a more stronger power f romn doing the exercise.

Definitely need to sit in the Asana position in doing both methods. You don't need to consciously try to breathe with your body.

It's all done with the imagination. If you make your imagination the main force in doing pore breathing, you will be given the effortless way to correctly do it.

In the first method, sitting in the Asana position, for the fire element, imagine yourself surrounded by fire, Fire everywhere, imagine the whole world is nothing but fire, until you are expereincing actually sitting in a world of fire. There is nothing else for you, but endless fire in various shapes and sizes, orange/red, engulfing all that you see in your imagination before you.

For the first method, the whole body method. You draw in 7 breathes, with your focus being on imagining that your body is breathing in pure fire from all around you. One by one, drawing in the breathes from the Universe of fire.

As you draw in the breathes, you need to,at the same time as your breathing, mnetally direct the fire element to be accumalated in a part of your body or an internal organ, except the heart/brain. I ususally start at the feet and work my way up to the head region.

So let's say you are going to start with the right foot, you draw the breathes in, one by one and direct it into your foot, through your whole body.

The analogy of taking a pool of water and then taking a hose and drwaing some of the water off of it and directing it into a pail, can be thought of.

So you go through the 7 breathes, through the whole body to the right foot. Allow the fire element to sit there until you feel uncomfortable and now you slowly, using the imagination, send it back up through the entire body and then out through the body, into the Universe of fire that you have called forth around yourself, using your imagination.

This is how I have down this method and found it to work very effectively.

The second method, I think is a bit easier, you simply take the fire element, from your Universe of Fire all around you and direct it with your imagination, pore berathing it directly into the body part/interanl organ that you are accumalting the element into.

So your by passing using your body and going right to the part to hold the element.

It makes snese that he would say you need both methods, using your body and then the indiviual section fro the same thing will build up a better mastery of each element. This is what I've fund from using the 2 methods together as he suggests in the book

At the end of this step he talks about developing rituals for creating storehouses of each element in the Akasha fro your immediate use through  hand gestures.

For this, I found that by sitting in the Asana position, I would visualize teh psoitive aspect of the fire element and draw it into the mental plane and vsiualize it building and building. Then at it's peak moment, I would make a finger/hand gesture and anchor this state through the combination of the 2.

This is similiar to the NLP technique of anchoring yourself to a particular stae of mind.

When you do the hand/finger gesture, after having repeated this exercise for each element, in the astral/mental plane you will find that it instantly calls forth the element you've been storing there with absolutely no conscious effort on your part.
Title: Re: Who is Practicing the IIH?
Post by: Searcher on August 26, 2012, 12:16:07 PM
Melch I hope that this is you and not just regurgitating what you have read. If it is you then you have started and I say: well done sir!

Remember to take some time out, to experiment and play with the energy! Like moving it around the body? How far will it jump from hand to hand? What happens if I put it all in my big toe? What energy can I draw from this object, first by touch and then from a distance?

I have found that I do not become the object but exist within the object, either way what energies are in the object, can they be manipulated?

Try imagining that the energy is around you, i.e. that the planes are around you, not in a different place!

Once again well done; you karma is now better by one. :cool:
Title: Re: Who is Practicing the IIH?
Post by: Melchizedek on August 28, 2012, 12:09:11 AM
Melch I hope that this is you and not just regurgitating what you have read. If it is you then you have started and I say: well done sir!

Remember to take some time out, to experiment and play with the energy! Like moving it around the body? How far will it jump from hand to hand? What happens if I put it all in my big toe? What energy can I draw from this object, first by touch and then from a distance?

I have found that I do not become the object but exist within the object, either way what energies are in the object, can they be manipulated?

Try imagining that the energy is around you, i.e. that the planes are around you, not in a different place!

Once again well done; you karma is now better by one. :cool:


I agree with all your points. Yes, you exist within the picture. Your consciousness becomes concentrated in the center point and you can feel that tyhe picture is your entire world.

The objetc such as a picture is dead as a doornail, though I can energize it and make it come alive.

Yes. your right about sending the energy to your toes, fingers and then practicing releasing it in a flash as he talks about in the book.

I basically just get the  exercise down and then move on. I work the exrecise, until I effortlessly am motivated to go to the next one.

But all your points are well taken and are definite external additions that you can do with the exercises in this step.

Good Points :cool:
Title: Re: Who is Practicing the IIH?
Post by: Melchizedek on August 28, 2012, 12:40:25 AM
Step 5- Releasing the elements through solar plexus and the fingers. On this step I parctice the two methods of drawing the elements in, hold the element in and then, as he says in the book send it out through the solar plexus and create balls, spheres, pyramids. Also, he mentions exploding the shapes you make and I think dissolving them, as you send them out through your solar plexus.

I find that this is more powerful than just releasing the element through the enitre body or the indiviual part, depending on how you have drawn it into yourself.

This exercise does get you thinking about what you can do with the indiviual elements, almost shooting  the fire out of your finger.

Master this element and you could light something on fire at a great distance. Also you could reduce a fire at agreat distance. If you really mastered the fire element, you could stop all those wild fires you see in California, etc.

I believe that this is the point of where he talks about lighting a candle on fire with the fire element. Mastering the element is only as good as your ability to utilize it anywhere in the world/universe.

So this is taking the first drawing in exercises and bringing them up a step and I can feel it in my consciousness when I do it.

I make my main focus on just drawing in the elements, 7 breathes and then sending them out of my soalr plexus. The fingers and toes I havn't done, because of time constraints. It just takes too long, but I would say that if you ever want to make use of the elements, you would have to practice not only sending the elemnst from the solar plexus, but also the fingers and toes.


He ends the exercise for pore berathing the elemenst here to prepare you for the rest of the steps, which involves accessing the 4th dimension,.
You are 2 parts as he says, a spirit within a phsyical frame. Your spirit is in the 4th dimension, but your phsyical surroundings prevent you from retrieving information from it.

This exercise creeps me out, because you are literally pulling your spirit from within your physical body.

He has you draw in the air element in the first part of it, without use of the will. That I do and then I put my arm with my elbow on the table and draw out my spirtual hand. Can't move my arm and i can feel my spirt hand protruding out of my phsyical arm.

It's true. I found that in the methods he has fro accessing the 4th dimension for answers, that my pendulum dowsing didn't really improve, but he made me aware of how I can go about it to insure total, 100% connection to the 4th dimension.

The spirit guide I didn't try to contact, but I should probaly do that. The planchette, auto matic writing. I went through these and found that I could retrieve all the information I desire through the pendulum.

He talks about contacting beings and deceased people, buit I don't know why, because in step 7 he talks about being decieved by phantoms.

I feel that I'm being decieved when I come across beings in the 4th dimension. I don't totally trust most of the information that I recieve from them there.

In contacting your guardian angel, he talks about how once you lose contact, it's diffucult to re-connect and I think that's my problem. I've contemplated his advice and I think that he's right about how you need the guardian early in life, but then not so much as you venture out into the world
Title: Re: Who is Practicing the IIH?
Post by: AEth on October 02, 2012, 01:56:52 PM
Hey everyone. I'm very new to the forum and the occult in general, but thought I would post an exercise that may help those in my position. It has helped me greatly in the abstract concept of visualizing something "plastically" with your eyes closed in the beginning of Step 2. This was something of a sticking point for me because, unlike everything in Step 1, there is a fairly large quantum leap involved in doing this. Here is an exercise that has bridged that leap somewhat for me:

1) Do a candle staring exercise. The one recommended in the psi forums is perfect for this.

2) Directly after the exercise, lay down in some sort of relaxation asana if you want and close your eyes. You will notice an unimagined spot from the flame of the candle temporarily imprinted on your retina. Use this as a reference point to build the image of your candle beneath the actual concrete flame image that is unimagined.

Hope this helps. Thanks for all the awesome information on this forum everyone!
Title: Re: Who is Practicing the IIH?
Post by: Iatros on January 09, 2013, 08:27:55 PM
The above is great advice. You can also print out sheets of paper with various symbols in various colors to practice variety.
Title: Re: Who is Practicing the IIH?
Post by: Melchizedek on January 31, 2013, 06:49:22 AM
Hi everyone. I want to ask about
1. In step I Phisycal training when we do magic breathing and food/ water (based on akasha principle), can we visualize our desire (health, happy, etc) in pure white light form ?

2. In step VI Astral training. It said if we master this exercise we can master 4 elements in 3 planes. So in this step can someone do  amazing job like throwing fireball, fill empty glass with water (with accumulation water element only) and something like in Fairy Tale ?

1. that is fine, just be sure it is coming from the "heavens" and not from your body.

2. Nope.

The answer to question 2 is a big, gigantic "Yes". If you can't generate a fireball then your doing the magic system incorrectly. Your suppossed to end up doing everything that is talked in the book literally

The purpose of IIH is one central theme. It is mastery of the 4 elements(Fire, Air, Water and Earth). If your working with this book and the mental exercises and having trouble making progress, meditate on the fact that you are trying, to master each indiviual exercise for the purpose of mastering the 4 elements.

If you do just this, contemplate that this is what you are trying to do by practicing the mental exercises, you will make rapid progress on doing each of them, much better.

If you truly master the elements, then they will heed your call. You would be able to produce fire from out of nowhere, water from out of nowhere, wind from out of nowhere, cause plants to grow masterfully. It isn't out of the realm of possiblity that you could make a fireball, though this isn't the reason for doing the magic system.

If you complete this book, you are to be a master of the elements, for to be a master of the elements is to be a master of yourself and of the world around you. Everything, this entire earth and universe is composed of 4 things and 4 things only Fire, Air, Water and Earth.

It only makes sense that to start out in magic, you would start with mastering the building blocks of what everything is composed of.

How could you heal or influence things or events without a total harmonius connection to these 4 things. Without them there would just be a vast void of nothing

Title: Re: Who is Practicing the IIH?
Post by: Melchizedek on January 31, 2013, 08:22:54 AM
Please dis-regard everything that I've ever posted here on this forum. The Brotherhood of Light has deemed everyone here on this forum unworthy and undeserving of being brought unto the true pathway of IIH. I apologize for all I ever posted here.
Title: Re: Who is Practicing the IIH?
Post by: Akenu on January 31, 2013, 08:23:48 AM
Please dis-regard everything that I've ever posted here on this forum. The Brotherhood of Light has deemed everyone here on this forum unworthy and undeserving of being brought unto the true pathway of IIH. I apologize for all I ever posted here.

Brotherhood of Light or your ego? ;-)
Title: Re: Who is Practicing the IIH?
Post by: Aprophis on January 31, 2013, 09:29:05 AM
Please dis-regard everything that I've ever posted here on this forum. The Brotherhood of Light has deemed everyone here on this forum unworthy and undeserving of being brought unto the true pathway of IIH. I apologize for all I ever posted here.

If this Brotherhood of Light of yours does things like that, I would never want to be a part of that anyway. Quotes like that really make me doubt the 'light' part in their name. Also judging by that reaction, they seem to be emotionally immature.
Title: Re: Who is Practicing the IIH?
Post by: Impervious on January 31, 2013, 12:22:23 PM
Please dis-regard everything that I've ever posted here on this forum. The Brotherhood of Light has deemed everyone here on this forum unworthy and undeserving of being brought unto the true pathway of IIH. I apologize for all I ever posted here.

This is precisely why nobody will ever take you seriously.
Title: Re: Who is Practicing the IIH?
Post by: mrblack on February 01, 2013, 01:44:01 AM
Please dis-regard everything that I've ever posted here on this forum. The Brotherhood of Light has deemed everyone here on this forum unworthy and undeserving of being brought unto the true pathway of IIH. I apologize for all I ever posted here.

pfft....*shakes head
Title: Re: Who is Practicing the IIH?
Post by: kobok on February 01, 2013, 07:48:23 PM
Please dis-regard everything that I've ever posted here on this forum. The Brotherhood of Light has deemed everyone here on this forum unworthy and undeserving of being brought unto the true pathway of IIH. I apologize for all I ever posted here.

lol.  Thanks for the good chuckle.

But seriously...  You need to take a GOOD hard look at your practices, and at how you are deciding what is a true and accurate perception.  The simple fact is, no spiritually enlightened beings would ever make such broadly sweeping statements, so it is quite certain you are mistaken and leading yourself far astray.  Think carefully, and ask yourself whether that statement up there, rather than coming from outside, reflected your own feelings and emotions.  And if that did, what else did too?
Title: Re: Who is Practicing the IIH?
Post by: Melchizedek on February 08, 2013, 10:25:07 AM
Mastering the elements through the Azkasha in STep 6. Like plugging your mind into a nuclear power plant.
Title: Re: Who is Practicing the IIH?
Post by: Impervious on February 08, 2013, 01:18:20 PM
Like plugging your mind into a nuclear power plant.
This actually explains a few things.
Title: Re: Who is Practicing the IIH?
Post by: Steve on February 08, 2013, 02:40:44 PM
Please dis-regard everything that I've ever posted here on this forum. The Brotherhood of Light has deemed everyone here on this forum unworthy and undeserving of being brought unto the true pathway of IIH. I apologize for all I ever posted here.
Mastering the elements through the Azkasha in STep 6. Like plugging your mind into a nuclear power plant.
You said you were leaving, so quit coming back. Or, get off your pedestal that you made for yourself. One of the two.

Most of us here don't care about your ideas about the IIH, and most of us here also recognize that that IIH is NOT the "end all, be all" of metaphysics, so we don't care if your own imagination doesn't find us "worthy" of your imaginary version of the IIH.

You act like a beginner who thinks he's a master because he's done a couple of things that mediocre people can't do, without realizing just how much more there is to be done. Or to say it another way, you're like a child who has climbed a little ways up a mountain, turned and saw how far the majority of normal people are below you (but not everyone, though you mistakenly assume it is because you're so far below others that you cannot see them) and assumed that you have reached the zenith of the mountain, the highest that anyone will go. And you've developed little voices in your head that tell you what you want to hear about how great and amazing you are and how pathetic everyone else is (sounds more like a demon than a true Brotherhood of Light).

So all in all, whatever you decide to do, stop preaching to us.

~Steve
Title: Re: Who is Practicing the IIH?
Post by: Melchizedek on February 08, 2013, 04:40:52 PM
I post that statement and it doesn't resonate with either one of you. It doesn't resonate because you havn't personally experienced it. You've only heard it exists, but you don't really know if it does or not.

I know it is real because I've tapped into it. Neither one of you know if it's real or not, because neither one of you have the balls to find out if it's really real or not. :P


Your right about one thing though Steve, it is stupid for me to post anything here and I won't anymore. I would say forget about my posts, but I don't need to because no one here has the intutive guidance from within to see what I'm talking about.

What I'm posting is hidden from you. You think that your so advanced but in actuallity if any of you had to sit alone for any length of time in your magical abilites, you'd see how little you actually know
Title: Re: Who is Practicing the IIH?
Post by: mrblack on February 09, 2013, 01:12:37 PM
I think Bardon says it best.

Silence: The braggart who is talking big and exhibiting his wisdom will never be a genuine magician. The true magician will never make himself conspicuous with his authority; on the contrary, he will do anything not to give himself away. Silence is power. The more reticent he is about his knowledge and experience, without segregating himself from other people, the more he will be awarded bythe Supreme Source.
Title: Re: Who is Practicing the IIH?
Post by: Hellblazer on February 09, 2013, 02:55:41 PM
I tell ya'll what, I'll complete the IIH in 12 months starting March of this year through March of next year. I'll layer my practice so that I continue working on what I haven't mastered. I'll do this in conjunction with my current project. How that sound for sanity. I figure this, I've done most of the IIH exercises through other systems. I'll just hammer my way through it. Wish me luck. I'll report back here ever so often. My be this "brotherhood" will knock on the door. LOL
Title: Re: Who is Practicing the IIH?
Post by: Searcher on February 09, 2013, 03:19:10 PM
If you speak truth not just sarcasm bubba then you are doing it for the wrong reason. As you well know I do not think IIH is the b'all and end'all just that it is well balanced in it's approach and therefore extremely useful but to do it under these guises is disrespectful to other Majicians

Searcher
Title: Re: Who is Practicing the IIH?
Post by: Hellblazer on February 09, 2013, 04:46:52 PM
You kidding me I wouldn't do the IIH. I love my own system way to much as I won't become the creation of another. I don't fit into their mold. It's mostly poking fun at fanatics. My system works and I'm damn happy with it.  :biggrin:
Title: Re: Who is Practicing the IIH?
Post by: Melchizedek on February 11, 2013, 02:17:06 PM
I tell ya'll what, I'll complete the IIH in 12 months starting March of this year through March of next year. I'll layer my practice so that I continue working on what I haven't mastered. I'll do this in conjunction with my current project. How that sound for sanity. I figure this, I've done most of the IIH exercises through other systems. I'll just hammer my way through it. Wish me luck. I'll report back here ever so often. My be this "brotherhood" will knock on the door. LOL

Yeah, Bubba, I'm sorry but there's no way that you could complete the entire IIH in one year. I've been working on it for alomost 6 years and I'm probaly a bit more than half way through. I could go to step 7, probaly 8, but it's still a hair out of my reach

You might be able to have the first 2 steps down, maybe the third to a degree, depending, but anyone whose advising you that they have the pathway to show you how to complete the entire book in one year is full of s**t.
Title: Re: Who is Practicing the IIH?
Post by: Akenu on February 11, 2013, 02:21:25 PM
You know, Melchizedek, that idea of completing IIH in 1 year originally came from me and we discussed it a lot with Bubba. I also got my own reasons for claiming this possibility because I pretty much understand mechanics behind IIH.
On the other side, your inconsistency in your claims and absurdity of the walk-through proposed by you followed by completely insane claims about actions of the brotherhood of light makes me to think that you are either sick and delusional or you are making fun of members of this occult community.
Title: Re: Who is Practicing the IIH?
Post by: Melchizedek on February 11, 2013, 03:20:59 PM
You know, Melchizedek, that idea of completing IIH in 1 year originally came from me and we discussed it a lot with Bubba. I also got my own reasons for claiming this possibility because I pretty much understand mechanics behind IIH.
On the other side, your inconsistency in your claims and absurdity of the walk-through proposed by you followed by completely insane claims about actions of the brotherhood of light makes me to think that you are either sick and delusional or you are making fun of members of this occult community.

Akenu, I'm done arguing, I won't complain or post my ideas on IIH, ever again here. I'm sorry though, you can at most complete the first 2 steps of IIH and make some headway into Step 3. Maybe if you were tremendously talented in magic, you could make it to Step 4, but you would have to be working on this day and night and even then the added stress and anxiety, that your body would have to endure, would be unbearable.

Even if you were doing the exercises incorrectly, convincing yourself that you were doing them correctly, you would get so confused and frustrated, that you would definitely quit before you even made it past Step 1
Title: Re: Who is Practicing the IIH?
Post by: Akenu on February 11, 2013, 03:29:17 PM
You know, Melchizedek, I think you are doing this because else you would feel unsure about your position in life, this game helps you to get feeling of being meaningful, the feeling of meaning something. Come on, you don't need that, you are a standalone and unique person, cherish what you are, don't play something you are not. There always were troubles and there always will be some. Troubles manifest and then disappears again, that's the cycle of life experienced each day by billions of people, you are not alone in your feelings and if you wish, I can help you to face your problems, just abandon your shell.
Title: Re: Who is Practicing the IIH?
Post by: Melchizedek on February 11, 2013, 03:45:52 PM
You know, Melchizedek, I think you are doing this because else you would feel unsure about your position in life, this game helps you to get feeling of being meaningful, the feeling of meaning something. Come on, you don't need that, you are a standalone and unique person, cherish what you are, don't play something you are not. There always were troubles and there always will be some. Troubles manifest and then disappears again, that's the cycle of life experienced each day by billions of people, you are not alone in your feelings and if you wish, I can help you to face your problems, just abandon your shell.

Sorry Akenu, I'm doing this because everything I say about IIH is the truth. How do you think that Franz Bardon did all the things that he did. He mastered the elements through the Akasha principle. Such as mastering the Air element to the point that he could hear his son asking the maid about what he did at night and then there appeared 2 matche dancing in the air.

Well how do you think he did that. He became a part of the Universe through the elements emanating out of the Akasha. He by mastering, let's say the air element for instance would give him all powers of levitation and hearing across the entire world. He would only have to find the center point of a person, become him and then through the air element could hear everything that he said.

But you guys don't like that stuff, you only like the superficial stuff, that's why you hate me talking about my views on the IIH, because it shows you up for not doing it the right way.

I'm not the one with the problem, you are. You think you can do this system in 1 year :headwall: you can't. But if you have a forum full of people all doing the same thing, well then it seems like your all right and I'm wrong
Title: Re: Who is Practicing the IIH?
Post by: Hellblazer on February 11, 2013, 07:45:24 PM
What if everything you knew was completely incorrect, what if the IIH is wrong? How would you react? What if there was a system that was twice as effective? I have my method of magick and it works far better than anything hermetic magick has ever done.
Title: Re: Who is Practicing the IIH?
Post by: Akenu on February 12, 2013, 04:08:39 AM
Sorry Akenu, I'm doing this because everything I say about IIH is the truth.

Actually you haven't give even one piece of information that would support your claims.

Quote
How do you think that Franz Bardon did all the things that he did. He mastered the elements through the Akasha principle. Such as mastering the Air element to the point that he could hear his son asking the maid about what he did at night and then there appeared 2 matche dancing in the air.

Care to share sources?

Quote
Well how do you think he did that. He became a part of the Universe through the elements emanating out of the Akasha. He by mastering, let's say the air element for instance would give him all powers of levitation and hearing across the entire world. He would only have to find the center point of a person, become him and then through the air element could hear everything that he said.

This could also be used for suggestion, couldn't it? How does it happen that he was held captive for a long time in concentration camp and then he even died in police custody (many years later).

Quote
But you guys don't like that stuff, you only like the superficial stuff, that's why you hate me talking about my views on the IIH, because it shows you up for not doing it the right way.

Well, it rather shows you have some issues you should work on

Quote
I'm not the one with the problem, you are. You think you can do this system in 1 year :headwall: you can't. But if you have a forum full of people all doing the same thing, well then it seems like your all right and I'm wrong

Melchizedek, if you did your homework you might find out a thing or two. First of all: Spiritual development is based on spiritual, not physical years, short explanation would be: Time needed for mastering something is pretty much individual and can go from seconds up to years, IIH is not a spiritually advancing system but an introduction, by using Bardon's own words: It's the gate to the real initiation.
Steps in IIH are truly steps, steps on the ladder. You have to go one step up so then you can go on the next step, etc.
From your post I got that you think that every next step is more difficult than the previous one. That's not true, it's just focused on different part and Step III you were talking about is probably the easiest when it comes to the execution because all you need for that you already learned in Step II. And in the and, at Step X, a door are shown to you, you get keys and a voice says: "F*ck off", then you are on your own to examine more, mastery of IIH doesn't equal to mastery of Magick or attaining the highest form of existence. Now, to the rest: Steps as described in IIH can be found in various traditions practiced by millions of people. Do you really want to tell me that Brotherhood of Light does check all these people whether they are worthy and these millions are never accepted because they didn't have access to the introduction in IIH?

P.S. In other post you were talking about what Steps I could probably accomplish, funnily enough you have used steps that you yourself have avoided (more specifically: Steps I - IV), I doubt you even know what are these steps about :).
Title: Re: Who is Practicing the IIH?
Post by: Feint on April 04, 2013, 03:22:34 PM
Melchizedek, first of all I say you are crazy saying everyone here on the forum is not worthy. Take it you are still very egotistical and think everyone else is below you when you are still in the practical version of magic. I feel you have no idea who the Brother Hood of the White Light is and probably just looked it up on Google thinking you know everything about them yet you know only the intelligent part.

Anyways I have come to say I started IIH five months ago and guess what? I am actually on step FIVE. Everyone is different. I can handle the meditation and everything as well as all the others here which is likely everyone else. Nothing is actually hard at all, it is the subconscious putting the obstacles in front of you. I can assure you that your ego will not let you pass step 8 until you stop talking about your achievements and such. I plan on finishing IIH as well as The Key to the true Kabbalah because it doesn't seem like PME is needed for that book. I have a whole lifetime ahead of me.
Title: Re: Who is Practicing the IIH?
Post by: ThePhoenix13 on April 04, 2013, 04:38:56 PM
For proper resources you should read the commentary on Franz Bardon in the article section by Prophecy and the commentary on the IIH by Veos in the article section.

These resources are quite enough for anyone for any neophyte truly wishing to pursue magic until they find a true guru.

Lastly, if you were an adept then you could complete the IIH in a single year. But if you were an adept you would not be on this website. So it is very likely that if you are on this forum then you are not an adept, and therefore cannot complete the IIH in a year.

The IIH has information left out on purpose because is meant to be completed in cycles. With each cycle the neophyte carries more wisdom and can better understand the words of the Master.

However, I must warn that doing the elemental and vital accumulations can be extremely dangerous if your bodies are not well prepared. The damages can be permanent and it is right to be frightened by this.
Title: Re: Who is Practicing the IIH?
Post by: Feint on April 05, 2013, 01:34:35 AM
If you were talking to me Phoenix, I am just here to provide some insights and learn more about Kabbalah.
Title: Re: Who is Practicing the IIH?
Post by: alg on April 07, 2013, 02:30:44 PM
Yes Feint, thank you for making yourself available :)
Title: Re: Who is Practicing the IIH?
Post by: Feint on April 09, 2013, 01:46:20 AM
I am truly not an adept at this moment, possibly in the near future though, but you do not need to be an adept to finish IIH in a year. I can assure you that others have done so too as everyone is different. Some are already naturally developed to do everything in this books. Perhaps I may not finish IIH in a year already looking through this book once, I see there are other prerequisites I need to finish first. I am probably not going to make a magic mirror nor participate in Automatic Writing. I am truly looking at a topic I could be working for all my life if anything. My true purpose for being on this earth is not to become rich and leave a legacy of riches or work at a job till I turn 65, I came here to find out what is real and what is not and make my way out of this illusion and back to the source. That is what this incarnation of me is for this century.
Title: Re: Who is Practicing the IIH?
Post by: Searcher on April 09, 2013, 02:22:20 AM
Hi Feint

Your views, to some will seem radical and I can understand flashing over some areas but the key word here is flashing not, 'not doing'! Think of it as building a brick wall, if you miss out bricks then although your wall rises it will be unstable and will easily fall down when more substantial things are put on top.

Searcher
Title: Re: Who is Practicing the IIH?
Post by: Feint on April 09, 2013, 11:49:59 PM
Thanks searcher for the advice :)
Title: Re: Who is Practicing the IIH?
Post by: Shamati on April 13, 2013, 01:06:44 PM
I just stumbled across Franz Bardon when I was concentrating on studying Crowleys work and Initiation into Hermetics seems like the perfect practical guide for the Great Work so I'm definitely gonna start following it.

Is it really possible to become a magician or a fully enlightened person outside of a magical order of some kind?
Title: Re: Who is Practicing the IIH?
Post by: ThePhoenix13 on April 13, 2013, 06:16:24 PM
@Shamati
All the answers to your questions and more:
IIH Commentary by Veos
http://forums.vsociety.net/index.php?topic=13531.0
Title: Re: Who is Practicing the IIH?
Post by: Kichara on April 16, 2013, 07:49:26 PM
It can be very hard Shamati, but people do it.
Title: Re: Who is Practicing the IIH?
Post by: mrblack on April 24, 2013, 08:49:45 PM
I just stumbled across Franz Bardon when I was concentrating on studying Crowleys work and Initiation into Hermetics seems like the perfect practical guide for the Great Work so I'm definitely gonna start following it.

Is it really possible to become a magician or a fully enlightened person outside of a magical order of some kind?

yes but being in a magickal order will expedite the process.
Title: Re: Who is Practicing the IIH?
Post by: Aunt Clair on May 09, 2013, 07:19:38 PM
I just stumbled across Franz Bardon when I was concentrating on studying Crowleys work and Initiation into Hermetics seems like the perfect practical guide for the Great Work so I'm definitely gonna start following it.

Is it really possible to become a magician or a fully enlightened person outside of a magical order of some kind?

Yes. Many orders only charge money imparting no wisdom or magickal prowess. The orders are often fraternities which offer titles and a pecking order for a cost without actually teaching or initiating the aspirant.The magickian is not measured by the amount of tuition or other monies they pay but by their work; the magickian can see clairvoyantly , feel clairsentiently, fly in projection at will , heal shamynically, exorcise and evoke without sigil or triangle. Belonging to a group or order does not make someone a magickian , either.

Full enlightenment is attained through henios /unio mystica / samadhi. Each time there is longer and more fufilling but this is an eternal and infinite process imho. It is not possible to be of the earth, on the earth and enlightened without being exceptional like Christ or Buddha. We are polluted here we become sated or tainted. The mark of the enlightened ones is their service after their death and during their lives. They continue to heal , inspire , protect, attune, and exorcise as Mahatma. And begin to serve as ArchAngels while they live. The soul is magnified when it leaves the less pure form of the body. The mind in the body is subject to human frailities; anger, rage , wrath, despair, grief, anxiety, stress, depression. When separated the magickian is euphoric there is no experience like this to have concious recall of the intent of the projection and the adventures had upon those journeys.

IIH is a very good start to Hermetic Magick and reading voraciously seeking true peers who will share freely in service will ascend your vibration , faster.
Title: Re: Who is Practicing the IIH?
Post by: Melchizedek on June 10, 2013, 09:11:57 PM
I just stumbled across Franz Bardon when I was concentrating on studying Crowleys work and Initiation into Hermetics seems like the perfect practical guide for the Great Work so I'm definitely gonna start following it.

Is it really possible to become a magician or a fully enlightened person outside of a magical order of some kind?

No, you need the magical order, except it's not a magical order of men, but a magical order of spirits who call you to be intiated if it's in you to be intiated when you start parcticing the mental exercises from IIH
Title: Re: Who is Practicing the IIH?
Post by: Major Hermann on June 11, 2013, 06:03:11 AM
Hi I just found this forum which looks really sweat, full of Bardonist's  :)

I come from the art of psionics, natural gift in remote influencing which is fun to practice on people and animals everyday,
like giving women energetic orgasms or sending people thought transmission
 something worth getting out of bed for :D 

Iv been trying to find a steady system though to raise my energy and Bardon seems to call out to me more,
 its like his spirit is with me everytime i open his book

Here is also a brother Bardonist of ours that likes to bend the elements to put animals to sleep easily within 10mins
 i find this really cool to practice and make the uninitiated and unbelievers think twice about our practices   

original videos of Kanzawa Sensei in youtube but none are in english... still fun to watch 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=5uSRgWWRnJ8

 
heres average guy bending the magnetic fluid doing the same as the Sensei
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gloqD5kODQE
Title: Re: Who is Practicing the IIH?
Post by: nil on September 02, 2013, 02:53:06 AM
I have just started recently and practicing everyday.

So far, the stopping my mind from shouting at me and talking during observation is the hardest part.
Title: Re: Who is Practicing the IIH?
Post by: hecate8 on October 24, 2013, 09:16:56 PM
Struggling along with it. It has vastly helped my ability to visualize.
Title: Re: Who is Practicing the IIH?
Post by: Bugs on December 04, 2013, 10:14:14 PM
I don't know why... but I'm in love with IIH  :rolleyes:
Title: Re: Who is Practicing the IIH?
Post by: Shamati on January 05, 2014, 07:35:48 PM
I've now been initiated into an order and I do believe that very few people are able to reach instant enlightenment without the input from other human beings sharing their experiences and input of similar obstacles and processes which occur to people.
I also believe that there's also something special that happens when there's a group of people (minimum 3) doing rituals or sharing knowledge or meditating / doing hatha yoga that is impossible to be replaced by the internet. Although I'm sure there are those that reach the end goal of mystical union without the assistance of a group or a master but that for the vast majority a group or a spiritual master is very helpful..

I just wished there was a hermetical magical order that was built around the system of Franz Bardon.
Title: Re: Who is Practicing the IIH?
Post by: Neeros on January 07, 2014, 12:45:01 AM
I've now been initiated into an order and I do believe that very few people are able to reach instant enlightenment without the input from other human beings sharing their experiences and input of similar obstacles and processes which occur to people.
I also believe that there's also something special that happens when there's a group of people (minimum 3) doing rituals or sharing knowledge or meditating / doing hatha yoga that is impossible to be replaced by the internet. Although I'm sure there are those that reach the end goal of mystical union without the assistance of a group or a master but that for the vast majority a group or a spiritual master is very helpful..

I just wished there was a hermetical magical order that was built around the system of Franz Bardon.

From what I experienced back when I did the probationer class, there is, at least somewhat. The Divine Science, Prophecy, and Veos' order. They are online AND have a temple if you are willing to make the journey.
Title: Re: Who is Practicing the IIH?
Post by: Messiaen on May 30, 2014, 12:01:34 PM
I've now been initiated into an order and I do believe that very few people are able to reach instant enlightenment without the input from other human beings sharing their experiences and input of similar obstacles and processes which occur to people.
I also believe that there's also something special that happens when there's a group of people (minimum 3) doing rituals or sharing knowledge or meditating / doing hatha yoga that is impossible to be replaced by the internet. Although I'm sure there are those that reach the end goal of mystical union without the assistance of a group or a master but that for the vast majority a group or a spiritual master is very helpful..

I just wished there was a hermetical magical order that was built around the system of Franz Bardon.

From what I experienced back when I did the probationer class, there is, at least somewhat. The Divine Science, Prophecy, and Veos' order. They are online AND have a temple if you are willing to make the journey.

I really think that going your own way is better, but still, yes. A really interesting thing.
Title: Re: Who is Practicing the IIH?
Post by: The Alchemical Man on July 12, 2014, 03:23:47 PM
I am currently in the first week of step one. All is well so far, will be updating as I go.
Title: Re: Who is Practicing the IIH?
Post by: Iatros on October 09, 2014, 07:35:46 AM
I've now been initiated into an order and I do believe that very few people are able to reach instant enlightenment without the input from other human beings sharing their experiences and input of similar obstacles and processes which occur to people.
I also believe that there's also something special that happens when there's a group of people (minimum 3) doing rituals or sharing knowledge or meditating / doing hatha yoga that is impossible to be replaced by the internet. Although I'm sure there are those that reach the end goal of mystical union without the assistance of a group or a master but that for the vast majority a group or a spiritual master is very helpful..

I just wished there was a hermetical magical order that was built around the system of Franz Bardon.

From what I experienced back when I did the probationer class, there is, at least somewhat. The Divine Science, Prophecy, and Veos' order. They are online AND have a temple if you are willing to make the journey.

As much as I would recommend TDS to Bardon-lovers, it should be understood that TDS only has some IIH practices because the two traditions are related. The similarities are apparent in the Probationer class, but afterwards, less and less so. The only practice that is exactly the same as IIH is the Soul Mirrors, because they are great. Everything else is taught somewhat differently, including basic meditation (we do not jump right in to Thought Control). Practices with certain forces only appear similar because both systems have a Hermetic paradigm. I do not want people coming to TDS only to be disappointed because it is not Bardon.

But anyone who isn't too attached to IIH and just likes the general flavor of Bardon shouldn't be discouraged.

Just thought I'd clarify.
Title: Re: Who is Practicing the IIH?
Post by: Explorer on October 11, 2014, 04:36:20 AM
hello i have a question regarding step 3 though i am on step 1 right now
bardon says in step 3 to develop imagination so vivid that it should be as a real object ...

is it really necessary ? isn't it too dangerous  if the imagination is as real as Reality then it could very easily lead to schizophrenia and other hallucinatory mental diseases .. especially when he says that when visualizing every thing else should disappear and only the visualized image should remain as if it were a real object..

the problem could be far greater in auditory exercise .. those who have completed step 3 how do you manage it ? say when a random daydream occurs or when you are not fully conscious and attentive

Title: Re: Who is Practicing the IIH?
Post by: Akenu on October 11, 2014, 05:03:25 AM
If you do step I and II as you should then step III is completely safe, plus the plastic visualization is important for later steps.
Title: Re: Who is Practicing the IIH?
Post by: Steve on October 13, 2014, 09:41:25 AM
hello i have a question regarding step 3 though i am on step 1 right now
bardon says in step 3 to develop imagination so vivid that it should be as a real object ...

is it really necessary ? isn't it too dangerous  if the imagination is as real as Reality then it could very easily lead to schizophrenia and other hallucinatory mental diseases .. especially when he says that when visualizing every thing else should disappear and only the visualized image should remain as if it were a real object..

the problem could be far greater in auditory exercise .. those who have completed step 3 how do you manage it ? say when a random daydream occurs or when you are not fully conscious and attentive


It is potentially dangerous, and that's why learning this stuff can easily become a double-edged sword. Many paradigms develop skills that could make it difficult to differentiate imagination from reality, which is why some results should always be achieved in the physical and under such blatant circumstances where they do not require interpretation of any sort; there are always going to be other results that are hard to distinguish, but a practitioner should always strive for at least some results that are so blatantly real that they answer the question of whether it is magic or not.

The third step is a very strong skill in metaphysics, to the point where there are quite a few people who think it is pretty much mandatory across all paradigms (though it's actually not universal, the ability to "focus your thoughts down to only the thing that you wish to achieve and then project that out into the world around you" is a widely used skill). However, as Akenu said, the first two exercises help with controlling the normally uncontrolled background processes that would cause the dangerous situation. And that's why you don't skip ahead in the practices ;) Also, even after you've started the third one, or the fourth one, or the umpteenth one (... umpteenth is a valid word? There's no red underline saying it's spelt wrong? o_O), keep doing the first and second as well.

~Steve
Title: Re: Who is Practicing the IIH?
Post by: Explorer on October 14, 2014, 05:30:17 AM
thank you steve sir  and akenu sir

it was a typo , its not in step 3 , the exercise is in step 2 itself

thing is we all hallucinate all the time .. but because our hallucinations arent as vivid as reality itself we all don't become schizophrenic ..

nikolas tesla had  super highly vivid imagination and he used to do most of his experiments in his mind itself rather than with realife machines but even he was troubled and haunted by these imaginations a lot..

while searching about it i found out rawn clark explanation about it which gives more clarity and safety ...
 ( i dont think this explanation was in his commentary )

www.abardoncompanion.de/Plastic.html

thanks i do have 1 more question regarding building that initial unshakeable faith and shuting up the conscious skeptic mind ..
the objective results from iih arent expected before step 5 which takes around 2-3 years to complete step 5 as per veos time guidelines ..

 
is there any other way to convince oneself of objective practical results .. through experience  a bit quicker ?

psiwheels are easily affected by wind and is difficullt for a beginner to perform under glass bowl without enough training

astral travel and obe are dangerous itself without prior training as laid down by bardon

energy work is subjective as well

any other way apart from videos and scientific studies just to get that confidence  and end the doubt ?

sorry for asking noobish questions

thank you so much for taking time to reply to my queries  :)
Title: Re: Who is Practicing the IIH?
Post by: turbostrat9 on December 02, 2014, 11:29:48 AM
Hi, stupid question, but can I get some clarification as to timelines? Rawn Clark seems very optimistic that the first step should only take about 6 weeks. Veos says 4X that. I have a lot of respect for Rawn, but is he being overly optimistic?
Title: Re: Who is Practicing the IIH?
Post by: ThePhoenix13 on December 02, 2014, 12:20:56 PM
Hi, stupid question, but can I get some clarification as to timelines? Rawn Clark seems very optimistic that the first step should only take about 6 weeks. Veos says 4X that. I have a lot of respect for Rawn, but is he being overly optimistic?

6 weeks is kind of "good enough" to move on to the next step. But no it's not long enough to master the exercise. In fact you cannot master the exercise until you reach Gnosis which is far off  from completing step 8. Thought observation is actually a gnostic practice.
Title: Re: Who is Practicing the IIH?
Post by: Akenu on December 02, 2014, 12:33:24 PM
Let me see, the physical exercises, correct bathing of the body, charging food, water magick are pretty easy to grasp, conscious breathing, eating and drinking need some time to get used to it.

Thought observation needs some dedication, it takes about 5 days to get to the point where you can passively observe your thoughts for 10 minutes and actually remember all of them.

Next one is thought control, limiting your thoughts just to certain idea. This should be practiced during the whole day. It can be nailed in 3 days and affirmations really help with that.

Then you should also write down your soul mirrors, this depends a lot on how good you are with introspection and how often you want to write things down.

Biggest problem lies in vacancy of mind exercise, about 4 weeks to get this one down, prayer beads really help

Title: Re: Who is Practicing the IIH?
Post by: turbostrat9 on December 02, 2014, 12:40:22 PM


6 weeks is kind of "good enough" to move on to the next step. But no it's not long enough to master the exercise. In fact you cannot master the exercise until you reach Gnosis which is far off  from completing step 8. Thought observation is actually a gnostic practice.

So I'm not being overly optimistic about trying to spend about a month on each of the mental exercises?
Title: Re: Who is Practicing the IIH?
Post by: Akenu on December 02, 2014, 12:44:52 PM


6 weeks is kind of "good enough" to move on to the next step. But no it's not long enough to master the exercise. In fact you cannot master the exercise until you reach Gnosis which is far off  from completing step 8. Thought observation is actually a gnostic practice.

So I'm not being overly optimistic about trying to spend about a month on each of the mental exercises?

Come on, that's ridiculous. You would be only wasting your time. Thought observation and vacancy of mind can be practiced in a succession (first ten minutes observation, then ten minutes vacancy of mind), thought control is practiced during the whole day (except when you are doing thought observation and vacancy of mind exercises).
Title: Re: Who is Practicing the IIH?
Post by: turbostrat9 on December 02, 2014, 01:16:06 PM
I'm just confused because Veos claims it takes six months in his commentary. I'd love to be able to just plow through it, but that doesn't seem to be the advice that most people on this site give.
Title: Re: Who is Practicing the IIH?
Post by: Akenu on December 02, 2014, 01:25:26 PM
That's simple, don't read commentaries :-D. IIH is enough consistent and self-explanatory, don't try to make it difficult by reading opinions of other people.
Title: Re: Who is Practicing the IIH?
Post by: Shinichi on December 02, 2014, 01:34:24 PM
That's simple, don't read commentaries :-D

That.

There is a lot of often-useful information to find in the commentaries, but if you are reading the IIH then you are not a student of Veos, or Rawn, or Mistele or anyone else. You are a student of Franz Bardon, and the book itself has everything you need to make it through all of the early steps.



~:Shin:~
Title: Re: Who is Practicing the IIH?
Post by: Searcher on December 02, 2014, 02:19:26 PM
Some very good things have been said and some not so good ones but what I would grasp from the last few posts is that it will take no longer than 6 weeks, if you take longer then your a failure and that all you need is your self, a play thing and a book with no pictures. Lots and lots of belly laughs!

1. It will take as long as it takes, no more no less
2. Some need more external help/guidance than others
3. You do not have to master the exercises but you need to be able to do them. Nothing bad about starting over
4. Ask these so called if they now what's their strongest element or their weakest or are there any in balance
5. And finally it's all about you! Or I if its about self.

Searcher
Title: Re: Who is Practicing the IIH?
Post by: Merlin on December 02, 2014, 02:56:34 PM
Come on, that's ridiculous. You would be only wasting your time. Thought observation and vacancy of mind can be practiced in a succession (first ten minutes observation, then ten minutes vacancy of mind), thought control is practiced during the whole day (except when you are doing thought observation and vacancy of mind exercises).
I've been practicing thought observation along with the magic and physical training from step one for about sixteen weeks. I'm really not worried about taking my time; I'm 17, so I figure I have plenty of time. Is there a drawback to going so slowly?
Title: Re: Who is Practicing the IIH?
Post by: Akenu on December 02, 2014, 03:52:16 PM
Come on, that's ridiculous. You would be only wasting your time. Thought observation and vacancy of mind can be practiced in a succession (first ten minutes observation, then ten minutes vacancy of mind), thought control is practiced during the whole day (except when you are doing thought observation and vacancy of mind exercises).
I've been practicing thought observation along with the magic and physical training from step one for about sixteen weeks. I'm really not worried about taking my time; I'm 17, so I figure I have plenty of time. Is there a drawback to going so slowly?

Yes, there is one drawback, you are wasting a valuable time, if you are already able to to keep your mind vacant for 10 minutes you should begin accomodating step II into your practice as it is the most time consuming one (but ultimately the most valuable one).
Title: Re: Who is Practicing the IIH?
Post by: Akenu on December 02, 2014, 03:59:52 PM
Some very good things have been said and some not so good ones but what I would grasp from the last few posts is that it will take no longer than 6 weeks, if you take longer then your a failure and that all you need is your self, a play thing and a book with no pictures. Lots and lots of belly laughs!

1. It will take as long as it takes, no more no less
2. Some need more external help/guidance than others
3. You do not have to master the exercises but you need to be able to do them. Nothing bad about starting over
4. Ask these so called if they now what's their strongest element or their weakest or are there any in balance
5. And finally it's all about you! Or I if its about self.

Searcher

Nope, not a failure. Each student is individual with individual needs and individual progression, notice that I said "about" in most cases.

Also, my soul mirrors.
black mirror
Fire: 9 vices
Water: 11 vices
Air: 9 vices
Earth: 6 vices

white mirror
Fire: 4 virtues
Water: 12 virtues
Air: 5 virtues
Earth: 1 virtues

Each of these is also split into 3 stages depending on how easily the virtue or the vice can be triggered.
Title: Re: Who is Practicing the IIH?
Post by: Merlin on December 02, 2014, 04:10:51 PM
Come on, that's ridiculous. You would be only wasting your time. Thought observation and vacancy of mind can be practiced in a succession (first ten minutes observation, then ten minutes vacancy of mind), thought control is practiced during the whole day (except when you are doing thought observation and vacancy of mind exercises).
I've been practicing thought observation along with the magic and physical training from step one for about sixteen weeks. I'm really not worried about taking my time; I'm 17, so I figure I have plenty of time. Is there a drawback to going so slowly?

Yes, there is one drawback, you are wasting a valuable time, if you are already able to to keep your mind vacant for 10 minutes you should begin accomodating step II into your practice as it is the most time consuming one (but ultimately the most valuable one).
Okay. About scheduling practice – should I 1) fully extend my earlier practices into my current ones, 2) cut back the time, but keep them up, 3) just focus on the exercises of the current step, or something else?

For clarification:
1) 10 minutes observation, 10 minutes blank mind each morning and night, maintain a focused mind throughout the day, and practice visualization as described in the IIH
2) 5 minutes observation, 5 minutes blank mind each morning and night, maintain a focused mind most of the time, and practice visualization as described in the IIH
3) Visualization exercises morning and night
Title: Re: Who is Practicing the IIH?
Post by: Akenu on December 02, 2014, 04:16:50 PM
Come on, that's ridiculous. You would be only wasting your time. Thought observation and vacancy of mind can be practiced in a succession (first ten minutes observation, then ten minutes vacancy of mind), thought control is practiced during the whole day (except when you are doing thought observation and vacancy of mind exercises).
I've been practicing thought observation along with the magic and physical training from step one for about sixteen weeks. I'm really not worried about taking my time; I'm 17, so I figure I have plenty of time. Is there a drawback to going so slowly?

Yes, there is one drawback, you are wasting a valuable time, if you are already able to to keep your mind vacant for 10 minutes you should begin accomodating step II into your practice as it is the most time consuming one (but ultimately the most valuable one).
Okay. About scheduling practice – should I 1) fully extend my earlier practices into my current ones, 2) cut back the time, but keep them up, 3) just focus on the exercises of the current step, or something else?

For clarification:
1) 10 minutes observation, 10 minutes blank mind each morning and night, maintain a focused mind throughout the day, and practice visualization as described in the IIH
2) 5 minutes observation, 5 minutes blank mind each morning and night, maintain a focused mind most of the time, and practice visualization as described in the IIH
3) Visualization exercises morning and night

Generally some practices in IIH are meant to be mastered and then forgotten, except those that Bardon says should be kept the whole life, which, is e.g. the whole first step. Regarding the timeline, I would say that once you get to 10 minutes for mental exercises, you should always keep it 10 minutes (not cutting down the time), that takes 20 minutes in the morning and in the evening, BUT your need to sleep will be reduced which means these exercises will earn their time. For the rest, you do not need to practice only in the morning or evening, spreading exercises along the day will less likely make you annoyed by your daily routine and will help you get used to the correct state of mind.
Title: Re: Who is Practicing the IIH?
Post by: Searcher on December 02, 2014, 04:18:00 PM
Where did I say 'Akenu' lol but on a serious note a bit of rebalancing wouldn't go a miss. Get into them corners and do some altering!

I don't think I've ever seen that dedicated Merlin, although I do agree that some get bogged down and forget to move forwards, Akenus correct try incorporating the next few exercises.

Give me a few min and I'll find my original regime out
Title: Re: Who is Practicing the IIH?
Post by: Akenu on December 02, 2014, 04:19:54 PM
Where did I say 'Akenu' lol but on a serious note a bit of rebalancing wouldn't go a miss. Get into them corners and do some altering!

I don't think I've ever seen that dedicated Merlin, although I do agree that some get bogged down and forget to move forwards, Akenus correct try incorporating the next few exercises.

Give me a few min and I'll find my original regime out

Don't worry, it wasn't taken personally, you just made a good point about the failure part and I wanted to clear that one up :).
Title: Re: Who is Practicing the IIH?
Post by: Searcher on December 02, 2014, 04:35:33 PM
Each sections timing was down to how I felt but I only did it once a day and each built on the one before as I moved forward.

1. Single thought relaxation
2. Blank thought relaxation
3. Energy inhalation and pore breathing, including auto suggestion
4. Focal meditation passed the self hypnotic stage
5. Create object in mind
6. Create sound in mind
7. Create smell in mind
8. Create feeling
9. Create taste
10. Join 5 to 9 together in a scene
11. Release of energy

Yes I'm moving on passed stage 1 but my action 3 comes before focal meditation!
Title: Re: Who is Practicing the IIH?
Post by: turbostrat9 on December 05, 2014, 12:41:02 PM
Just a quick question on the focus meditation in stage one. Should I be focusing on ideas centered around a central theme, or should I simply repeat a thought like a mantra?
Title: Re: Who is Practicing the IIH?
Post by: Akenu on December 05, 2014, 12:49:31 PM
A central theme. You pick an idea and expand it without slipping to different topics.
Title: Re: Who is Practicing the IIH?
Post by: turbostrat9 on December 05, 2014, 01:11:16 PM
Thank you Akenu.
I have studied samatha mediation for over a year, and I'm finding step one fairly easy based on my past experience. I have never worked on visualization, so I expect 2 and 3 to be much harder. I'm going to give each meditation in step one 2 weeks.   
Title: Re: Who is Practicing the IIH?
Post by: Steve on December 05, 2014, 06:28:03 PM
So I'm not being overly optimistic about trying to spend about a month on each of the mental exercises?
Don't decide beforehand how much time you think it will take. Take as much time as is needed to reach the objective set out by Bardon.

~Steve
Title: Re: Who is Practicing the IIH?
Post by: Hellblazer on December 05, 2014, 07:36:32 PM
Do the exercise till it's a habit. I think that's the point of them.
Title: Re: Who is Practicing the IIH?
Post by: turbostrat9 on December 16, 2014, 08:36:11 AM
So I have started the emptiness of mind exercise. I keep getting these very subtle thoughts, all related to the practice. "I'm sensing emptiness", "i need to focus more" etc.  :headwall: Any advice on how to stop very subtle thoughts?
Title: Re: Who is Practicing the IIH?
Post by: Akenu on December 16, 2014, 08:48:10 AM
So I have started the emptiness of mind exercise. I keep getting these very subtle thoughts, all related to the practice. "I'm sensing emptiness", "i need to focus more" etc.  :headwall: Any advice on how to stop very subtle thoughts?

This actually isn't automatic, just admit you are being a prick to yourself and it will fade away. I had the same problem, it really is just a form of self-trolling.
Title: Re: Who is Practicing the IIH?
Post by: Iatros on December 16, 2014, 09:10:39 AM
So I have started the emptiness of mind exercise. I keep getting these very subtle thoughts, all related to the practice. "I'm sensing emptiness", "i need to focus more" etc.  :headwall: Any advice on how to stop very subtle thoughts?

This actually isn't automatic, just admit you are being a prick to yourself and it will fade away. I had the same problem, it really is just a form of self-trolling.

Agreed. Recognize that these thoughts achieve the opposite of their intentions, and do not get caught up in them. I DO think that it is automatic for these to go away; as you practice you will gradually break the habit of producing unintentional thoughts by practicing this meditation.

You should also realize that an early effect of practice is to begin noticing more of your mental activity which would otherwise be ignored. It may seem like your mind is more restless at times than before you started practicing, as a side-effect. This stage is usually followed by good progress, as you begin to actually silence a mind that you have largely been fighting to become aware of until this point.

Then, when these first subtle thoughts go, you will become aware of even subtler ones, or of the mental energies which precede concrete thoughts. Recognize these changes that take place over time so that you can see your progress and adapt your practice accordingly to what becomes an increasingly unique experience.
Title: Re: Who is Practicing the IIH?
Post by: Steve on December 16, 2014, 09:12:38 AM
So I have started the emptiness of mind exercise. I keep getting these very subtle thoughts, all related to the practice. "I'm sensing emptiness", "i need to focus more" etc.  :headwall: Any advice on how to stop very subtle thoughts?
Emptying the mind to the point of no thoughts comes with practice. It is a skill. As Akenu said, it is not automatic.

Just keep practicing. When the thoughts come, ignore them and continue trying to focus on no thoughts. If you haven't already done so, you could try single point focal meditation, where you pick a single object/thought to focus on until you reach a state of thinking of just that one focal point without being led away by distractions, and then just remove that focal point.

~Steve
Title: Re: Who is Practicing the IIH?
Post by: Searcher on December 16, 2014, 10:30:07 AM
Just a line to agree with the others, you have to earn the right to have an empty mind and the price is practice.

Everybody has initial problems in this area, I was taught to accept/recognise the distraction and then to give it little importance and push it away. If you get really stuck try giving nothing a brighter light and what keeps interrupting a darker light, you can now push away the dark light (into black and disappear) and bring the empty forward by making it brighter until it is you (this is a good practice anyway)

Searcher
Title: Re: Who is Practicing the IIH?
Post by: Tradition on December 16, 2014, 10:33:27 AM
Can you elaborate on "pushing away the dark light", Searcher?
Title: Re: Who is Practicing the IIH?
Post by: Searcher on December 16, 2014, 10:40:13 AM
I'm not trying to be funny but it is practice, practice, practice. By using dark and light your focusing in on what your doing, you can also use big and small? Barton builds on what you've already learnt 'focal' meditation, Regarda does the same but in a more complex manor.
Title: Re: Who is Practicing the IIH?
Post by: Akenu on December 17, 2014, 05:23:06 AM
Yeah, one more thing, Bardon recommends to have prayer beads to track a number of mistakes during the meditation. I personally have made my own prayer beads based on this tutorial: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Tv4up0y9FUE
It is cheap and it works great.
Title: Re: Who is Practicing the IIH?
Post by: FaerieMan on June 03, 2015, 02:00:20 AM
I love Bardon's works. I use IIH (etc) as a practical guide, just remove the hermetic ethics (I.e. “a real magician would never...etc"). I've never used PME/KTTTK in practice. But I like the tool info in PME. I've read the recently “discovered" Bardon book the universal master key. I have serious doubts about it being written by Bardon due to some extremely contradictory statements it makes that go against the 3 known books. But that's just my opinion.
Title: Re: Who is Practicing the IIH?
Post by: Kemetin on October 17, 2015, 12:43:15 AM
Quote
just remove the hermetic ethics (I.e. “a real magician would never...etc").

Why? It's been a long time since I've read IIH through, but all of the ethical advice in it seemed pretty solid to me.
Title: Re: Who is Practicing the IIH?
Post by: Sadrielle on November 06, 2015, 01:54:04 PM
I gave IIH a crack over half a year ago, but my interest quickly waned due to real life distractions. I came back to it a few days ago when I realized I was missing up a perfectly good opportunity to delve straight into it without too much real world distraction. I'm finding it an easy and comfortable thing to slip into, save for the cold showers and tearing myself away from distractions so I can eat.

I surprised myself the first time I practiced conscientious eating, as it was a practice I skipped my last try. I was full before I was even half-way through with most of my plates. It helped me realize that I'm eating hugely in excess of what my stomach actually wants. The desire to watch youtube or read while I'm eating is still there, but it's mostly contained. As a result, eating has become more of a chore. : )

I have an excessively chatty, needy, glutton of a cat. It's difficult to concentrate in the morning. There is an incessant variety of, "Meow!!! FEED ME! MEOOOOW! PLAY WITH ME! MERRRROOOOOOW!"s in the background at any given moment in my house. I suppose it's just something I'll have to overcome when I practice my meditating. It completely disturbs and grabs my concentration, it's a bit like a baby's cry.

I'm liking how I feel thus far, and I'm glad to be giving IIH a shot again.