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Discussion Areas => Magick => Topic started by: darkcandle on January 05, 2008, 05:57:55 AM

Title: Demon Worship
Post by: darkcandle on January 05, 2008, 05:57:55 AM
Without following any strict code of approach like the Goetia or other grimores, I have been experiencing contact with one demon from the Goetia with a fantastic degree of success.

= Approach:
1. Treating the demon with respect and honor
2. Chanting name of demon, visual focus on sigil
3. Incensing sigil with fragrance of plant listed with demon's planet
4. Daily thanks for past favors
5. Placing sigil under pillow at night
6. Offering wine, fresh plant listed with demon's planet, and water on a plain altar
7. Lighting candles, black or of the specific color of the demon's planet
8. Offerings of personal energy
9. Drawing the sigil and using it in artwork for others to see
10. Private sigil drawing in art for devotion

= Environmental observations:
1. A sweet smell, at times overpowering, comes and goes
2. Ripples through the air, like something moving through water
3. Pockets of what appears to be heat vapor as the type you see rising from hot objects like pavement, in midair moving and fading away
4. Candles rising and crackling noises during meditation
5. Crackling noises or popping in the air without candles lit
6. Sudden cold areas in the room, usually near my arms, face

= Communication Methods From Demon:
1. All through dreams, information given to me beyond my wildest expectations, dream images range from obvious to heavy symbolism
2. Odd coincidences in real life which usually point directly to the demon to some degree

I don't believe in "dabbling" in magick, this is not idle amusement, I've done my research, which is not to suggest a convoluted ego. I note and appreciate written cautions against befriending demons and not using protective measures [meaning I use no circle, I never banish, I do not call upon any godform or higher power before, during, or after communicating with the demon]. I am not a practicing Satanist nor do I belong to any Satanic group or order, that includes the recent web-popular "demonolatry" bunch. I'm not knocking such groups but I wish to make this point clear as some may ask if I call upon Satan as some texts describe, I do not. My devotion towards this particular demon from the Goetia has been on-going for several years. During the early contacts, I inquired to another demon from the Goetia about a matter and received an instant response that night in a dream, followed by another dream which was disturbing and made it appear that I had offended the demon I so honor by contacting another for advice instead of him. Since then, I have only maintained contact with the one demon I had so devoted my attention to and the rewards in dreams have been miraculous.

I evoked the demon a couple of times but have not since and never to a degree where I could hear or see it, I blame this on spending no more than an hour on them, an error on my behalf. Honestly, I felt I was pushing it by trying evocation at this point, feeling it best to continue with light contact for several additional months. My main communication is through the Approach outlined above. I plan on evoking to visible manifestation. A recent dream was a scroll with writing on it and a line thrust before me, which leads me to believe the demon wishes to make a long term pact with me. Should anyone wish to comment on my experiences, as briefly as I have stated them thus far and perhaps share any tips on evocation before I attempt?

Edited on Jan 19, 2008
Reason: Added information I had originally intended to include
Title: Re: Demon Worship
Post by: Veos on January 05, 2008, 08:51:49 AM
Tips on evocation before you start: ......Don't.

    Many magicians have worked with demons and they have all formed the same opinion: No matter how nice, gentle or wise a demon may appear, it is still a Demon and eventually will act like one.  There is a reason why grimoires tell the magician to treat a Demon like a bastard slave with insults and curses.  From personal experience I can tell you that every demon shows its face eventually.  The very fact that you have worked with this being without the proper use of a ritual evocation shows that you lack the magickal experience to be evoking in the first place.  Why on Earth would you deal with a demon without the proper safe-guards established in ritual?  there is nothing a demon can do that an Angel or planetary spirit can't.  Chances are the creature has already started working on your mind, though you will of course be totally unaware of it until it is too late, assuming the being you have been experiencing is indeed the demon you were hoping to contact (which it probably isn't).  Demons are master decievers!  they are the best actors the universe knows.  I'm well aware that despite any warnings you receive you will still probably continue on with your plan, but know this: If you had fully developed clairvoyance, you would be able to see that creature's real form, and it would frighten you the likes of which no other thing in this physical world could do. 

   Basically, use some common sense.  A demon is a DEMON.  There is a reason it is called that.  Only after a few years of experience in evoking other beings should the infernal realms be dealt with by the magician.  If you evoke this demon and the demon actually shows (unlikely unless you have a great deal of experience.  An elemental posing as the demon will probably show) then you would have found yourself in a hole that is very hard to get out of. 
Title: Re: Demon Worship
Post by: Steve on January 05, 2008, 10:23:36 AM
"There is a reason why grimoires tell the magician to treat a Demon like a bastard slave with insults and curses."
And perhaps there is a reason that the demon is being nice to the guy who's treating it with respect :P

For all the other things though, I do agree that getting close to an evil entity is not the wisest of courses.

~Steve
Title: Re: Demon Worship
Post by: Trillis on January 05, 2008, 12:18:14 PM
There is nothing a demon can do that an Angel or planetary spirit can't. 

Then what is the purpose of summoning a Demon?
Title: Re: Demon Worship
Post by: Veos on January 05, 2008, 12:55:07 PM
    After having established his authority in the planetary and elemental realms, the magician may wish to do the same in the infernal realms.  If so, the demons are always evoked alongside of the angels who agitate them.  For every Demon there is an angel that binds it.  Other than this, idle curiosity is the only other reason I could think of for the magician to evoke a demon.  The only advantage is that a demon can bring about material wishes slightly more effective than other spirits, but not enough to use one instead of another spirit. 

And perhaps there is a reason that the demon is being nice to the guy who's treating it with respect :P

    A demon is a Demon, whether you greet it with curses and bindings or with cookies and milk.  Most demons will typically appear very appealing and gentle to someone who does not have the clairvoyant vision to see their true forms.  If you treat them with respect, you are only opening doors and avenues for them to enter and attack because you are not fully closing your mind and spirit to them.  If you treat them with a attitude of disgust and loathing, then the mind remains wholly apart and shut to the demon, and the aura remains firm and impenetrable.  It is much harder for the creature to break down the walls of the fortress than it is for it to simply walk in through an open gate.   
Title: Re: Demon Worship
Post by: Raitaro on January 05, 2008, 01:09:12 PM
Veos: Similarly, are there not Demons which agitate or are beyond various angels?
Title: Re: Demon Worship
Post by: Zake on January 05, 2008, 02:12:57 PM
The theory of attaining a friendly relationship with a demon through "treating it with respect an honor" isn't a particularly reliable one; a demon is a manner of being which would presumably care little about the respect of a small-time magician.  More likely, you've attracted a small-time spirit which is unimportant enough to care about such things.
Title: Re: Demon Worship
Post by: Hech on January 05, 2008, 02:17:29 PM
Veos: Does not the latter portion of the Abramelin Operation involve Demon Evocation? It was my understanding that this serves not only to establish the magician's authority on even the lowest of planes, but also this serves to aid in destroying the vices associated with such a demon.
Title: Re: Demon Worship
Post by: Shadow_Dragon on January 05, 2008, 02:30:33 PM
I actually want to study this evocation stuff soon. Not that I would really use it, but I'd like to know a little about it. I was taught once how to evoke, I guess the spirit of my ancestor's... but I really didn't know what I was doing and was just following the instructions of the person. Needless to say, I don't even know who it was I communicated with, if it was a 'memory' of my ancestor, or my actual ancestor him/her self.
Maybe I should stop practicing so much protection and move on to things like evocation and the like...
just a thought.
Title: Re: Demon Worship
Post by: Saer on January 05, 2008, 04:07:10 PM
Veos: Does not the latter portion of the Abramelin Operation involve Demon Evocation? It was my understanding that this serves not only to establish the magician's authority on even the lowest of planes, but also this serves to aid in destroying the vices associated with such a demon.

This is when the magician has established his Divinity by invoking the Holy Guardian Angel. He is quite literally untouchable at this point and so these Demons are merely a symbolic representation of him having authority in every sphere of existence.
Title: Re: Demon Worship
Post by: Zohar on January 05, 2008, 08:07:35 PM
Basically, use some common sense.  A demon is a DEMON.  There is a reason it is called that.  Only after a few years of experience in evoking other beings should the infernal realms be dealt with by the magician.  If you evoke this demon and the demon actually shows (unlikely unless you have a great deal of experience.  An elemental posing as the demon will probably show) then you would have found yourself in a hole that is very hard to get out of. 

You know, not all demon evocations go bad. I mean, after your first two evocations of infernal spirits, such as the demons in the Goëtia, the fear subsides and you learn to be more controlling and assertive. Given the fact that my first succesful evocation scared the excrement out of me, I know that some evocations can go bad... but not all of them do is the point which I am trying to get across.
Title: Re: Demon Worship
Post by: IsApOs on January 05, 2008, 08:18:01 PM
I do not believe Veos is saying that the evocation itself will go bad, but that by invoking an evil entity, evil is bound to happen eventually. Yes infernal spirits can be subservient to a proper authority, but there is no doubt in my mind they absolutely despise such a person. They will be nice and they will offer gifts only so they can eventually sway the magician into some sort of situation in which HE becomes the servant. Would you rather open a box containing puppies or a box containing hornets? Indeed, the hornets may not scare you or even harm you, but they are far more likely to.

Namaste
Title: Re: Demon Worship
Post by: Zohar on January 05, 2008, 08:35:41 PM
Yes infernal spirits can be subservient to a proper authority, but there is no doubt in my mind they absolutely despise such a person. They will be nice and they will offer gifts only so they can eventually sway the magician into some sort of situation in which HE becomes the servant. Would you rather open a box containing puppies or a box containing hornets? Indeed, the hornets may not scare you or even harm you, but they are far more likely to.

Good point.
Title: Re: Demon Worship
Post by: Trillis on January 06, 2008, 08:36:23 AM
Veos: If you were to treat a Demon in the way you described, wouldn't it actually provoke the Demon even more because you are assigning negative thoughts and damning him out of hate or some such?
Title: Re: Demon Worship
Post by: Hech on January 06, 2008, 09:50:43 AM
My guess would be that it could not be anymore hateful anyway, and it would know that you are treating it as it deserves.
Title: Re: Demon Worship
Post by: Veos on January 07, 2008, 03:12:04 AM
Veos: If you were to treat a Demon in the way you described, wouldn't it actually provoke the Demon even more because you are assigning negative thoughts and damning him out of hate or some such?

    Demons will like you all the same whether you greet them politely or bind them down with curses.  The difference is that if you treat a demon with respect, you come under an illusion and forget what exactly it is you are dealing with.  This is almost always the aim of a demon in an evokation.  If you bind it with curses and seals then both you and the demon will remember who stands where.  The magician who does this does not fall under the illusions of the demon.  The creature will beg for mercy, plea for help, act pitiful and helpless, assume various forms that have meaning to the magician (such as a lost friend), and act as humanely as possible so that the magician will break for just a second and have pity on the creature.  They are master actors, and this is what they want.  When this happens, the mind becomes like an open gate and the aura like a breached wall.  It will then not be long before he removes the city guards as well! 
Title: Re: Demon Worship
Post by: solstice on January 07, 2008, 03:21:07 PM
I've never seen a friendly demon.  Ever.  It seems to me, that they make it a point to not feel nice, or at least that has been my experience.
Why would someone WANT to have one around, when they could as effectively get things done themselves?
Also, I dont believe in good or evil, and neither do angels and demons.  It's their reference to us that creates the impression of alignment.  I am sure we seem evil to them.

Title: Re: Demon Worship
Post by: Steve on January 07, 2008, 05:16:08 PM
Well, on the other hand if you're abusing the demon then the demon is already winning. How you treat others, regardless of whether they "deserve" it or expect it, speaks volumes about your own self.

You can treat another being formally without letting your defenses drop.

~Steve
Title: Re: Demon Worship
Post by: Oriens Lvx Lucis on January 07, 2008, 05:23:36 PM
Well, on the other hand if you're abusing the demon then the demon is already winning. How you treat others, regardless of whether they "deserve" it or expect it, speaks volumes about your own self.

You can treat another being formally without letting your defenses drop.

~Steve

The problem in that opinion lies in that it is true with humans, but not with demons.  Humans are not demons.  Don't personify demons; demons, whether or not you can imagine it, are incapable of being "kind" (kind being the definition of benevolence from the usual human perspective).

However, I am going on theory here.  I've spoken with angels and elementals; not demons, therefore what I say on this subject is theory only. 
Title: Re: Demon Worship
Post by: Steve on January 07, 2008, 09:41:57 PM
I think you totally missed the point. Reread it.

Or I missed yours, but after rereading your post I still don't see how it applies to mine.

~Steve
Title: Re: Demon Worship
Post by: IsApOs on January 07, 2008, 09:48:57 PM
Steve: Even the highest adepts encourage such treatment of the demons. If you treat a dog like a human it will assume it has the same rights as a human, it will eat your food off the table and will defaecate in your house. However, if you treat it like a dog then it will know its place and be well aware of its purpose. Does teaching a dog that its place is to eat from the floor and play outside make one a bad person? Certainly you would not say so.

Demons are evil and vile creatures, who's only aim is to subjugate the magician and reduce him to a shell of his former self. They are unfit to stand in the presence of angels and certainly God. They are putrid beings and they have earned their position to be treated as such.

Namaste
Title: Re: Demon Worship
Post by: Steve on January 07, 2008, 10:00:09 PM
There's a huge difference between teaching a being it's "place" (according to your worldview, which is also subjective), and abusing another being. You don't abuse the dog in order to teach it; it would go feral after a while and attack you or someone else if it's afraid of you.

Also, house breaking it allows it to play indoors and deficate indoors without making a mess.

~Steve
Title: Re: Demon Worship
Post by: Yoh4397 on January 07, 2008, 10:07:37 PM
Steve: Even the highest adepts encourage such treatment of the demons. If you treat a dog like a human it will assume it has the same rights as a human, it will eat your food off the table and will defaecate in your house. However, if you treat it like a dog then it will know its place and be well aware of its purpose. Does teaching a dog that its place is to eat from the floor and play outside make one a bad person? Certainly you would not say so.

Demons are evil and vile creatures, who's only aim is to subjugate the magician and reduce him to a shell of his former self. They are unfit to stand in the presence of angels and certainly God. They are putrid beings and they have earned their position to be treated as such.

Namaste

Demons are nothing but a tainted soul right? So then they should be someone like a human because there is always a light that creates the dark......right?
Title: Re: Demon Worship
Post by: IsApOs on January 07, 2008, 10:21:14 PM
Demons are not ensouled beings. In fact it is the soul of the magician they are after due to it's tetrapolar nature (having the 4 elements present). Being slave to a demon is the ultimate curse, which usually befalls initiates of Black Magick, and is indeed, the definition of Hell.

Steven: I can see that no amount of metaphor and discussion will convince you otherwise so I suggest, if you are so certain, evoke a demon and treat it as a friend, then report to us your results. For if you are right, then you will have proven centuries of Adepts to be ignorant fools.

Namaste
Title: Re: Demon Worship
Post by: Yoh4397 on January 07, 2008, 11:45:40 PM
so they are only made up of fire and wind or something?

So I thought all souls were equal, coming from the ocean of light in Kether? How can we be different?
Title: Re: Demon Worship
Post by: Oriens Lvx Lucis on January 08, 2008, 07:51:09 AM
Steven,

 My point was that humans are deserving of all that you mentioned in your posts, but demons are not.  Demons should not be treated like friends or humans.
Title: Re: Demon Worship
Post by: Veos on January 08, 2008, 03:11:59 PM
Quote
There's a huge difference between teaching a being it's "place" (according to your worldview, which is also subjective), and abusing another being. You don't abuse the dog in order to teach it; it would go feral after a while and attack you or someone else if it's afraid of you.

    This implies that you are dealing with a being who is capable of learning what is right and wrong.  A demon is not.
Title: Re: Demon Worship
Post by: Steve on January 08, 2008, 03:40:09 PM
"There is a reason why grimoires tell the magician to treat a Demon like a bastard slave with insults and curses."

Again, my point is that if you're being an asshole then it doesn't matter whether the sentient being deserves it or not, you're still degrading your own soul/morals. Try to justify it all you want with phrases like "there's no such thing as good or evil" or "the demon deserves what it gets" or "I'm just doing it to protect myself", but in truth your desire and willingness to enact pain and suffering onto others simply because "they're evil", especially when you've already bound them, makes you the disgusting one. As a being attempting to become more like the Divine you should be above the actions that would normally be attributed to evil.

I did not say befriend the demon. I said treat it with respect, ie in a similar manner that you would treat a shark with the respect it deserves as a being capable of eating you.

~Steve
Title: Re: Demon Worship
Post by: Veos on January 08, 2008, 03:42:06 PM
  Yuo are forgetting the essential nature of Demon though.  It is not a matter of respect or "feelings".  It is a matter of necessity. 
Title: Re: Demon Worship
Post by: Steve on January 08, 2008, 07:46:32 PM
It's necessary to degrade your own self by doing what a demon would do? I still don't buy that.

I've dealt with many people IRL who were complete pricks throughout the entire conversation and didn't change their minds at any point in time, but maintaining a biblically "Godly" internal state allowed me to deal with them in a much better manner than they were dealing with me, and which impressed others around me for not degrading to their level. If you think that dealing with demons means you "have" to become less than godly, then I guess the best advice is to never deal with demons simply for that reason alone.

~Steve
Title: Re: Demon Worship
Post by: Saer on January 08, 2008, 07:59:31 PM
It's necessary to degrade your own self by doing what a demon would do? I still don't buy that.

I've dealt with many people IRL who were complete pricks throughout the entire conversation and didn't change their minds at any point in time, but maintaining a biblically "Godly" internal state allowed me to deal with them in a much better manner than they were dealing with me, and which impressed others around me for not degrading to their level. If you think that dealing with demons means you "have" to become less than godly, then I guess the best advice is to never deal with demons simply for that reason alone.

~Steve

The point that needs to be made, is human emotions and intentions change as the human pleases and desires to act toward a situation, as you have portrayed here. Humans may be intent on deceiving, condemning and disowning you or may be loving, kind and respectful toward you, this is an option for them. Demons, on the other hand are only capable of the former qualities. It is their intent, by any means necessary, to fool, deceive and ultimately degrade the magician. The magician does not summon a demon just to behave in an "ungodly" manner toward them, no, this comes as he realizes, intuitively and clairvoyantly, the intentions of the demon. He begins to treat them as they deserve to be treated, while maintaining his Divine status in the process.
Title: Re: Demon Worship
Post by: Hech on January 08, 2008, 08:02:21 PM
Have you ever kicked at rocks in a street, Steven? Most have, and this is not "wrong" because rocks are not human beings. Demons are not human beings either. Demons are not capable of learning what is right and what is wrong. This analogy comes through pure speculation because I have not evoked a demon. I assume that the same goes for you, Steven. However, Veos can speak on this matter from personal experience. It would seem that his word should be respected more readily than one who has had no personal experience.
Title: Re: Demon Worship
Post by: Steve on January 08, 2008, 08:25:12 PM
Aye, I /have/ kicked at rocks in the streets, and gone out of my way to do so and have also gone out of my way to find and destroy little blocks of snow/ice during winter times. Do you know why I did it, and why I have subsequently stopped? I did it out of anger, frustration, and a desire to destroy things. I have stopped because I have been trying to become a better person. I'm obviously still in need of work considering how I treat others on these forums and in the chat, but changing how and why I treat inanimate objects the way I do was a sort of first step (ever notice how I am /not/ justified in being a prick to people on these forums no matter how frustrated they make me? It's because everyone knows, especially the mods, that it's not right to do so).

Do none of you understand? My complaints were never about how abused the demon becomes. They were about you, yourself, and your internal reasons for abusing others. If the discussion were just binding the demons for personal protection, I would have no problem whatsoever with it, as one must cage or subdue a wild animal before they can safely deal directly with it, but there were statements which went beyond this into the idea that one "should" abuse demons.

~Steve
Title: Re: Demon Worship
Post by: Hech on January 08, 2008, 08:33:15 PM
Ah, I see your point, Steven. Thank you for clarifying. Does this partially relate to your last post?

He begins to treat them as they deserve to be treated, while maintaining his Divine status in the process.
Title: Re: Demon Worship
Post by: Steve on January 08, 2008, 08:35:14 PM
It pertains to what I said, but I disagree with it. A Divine status should be one of authority and severity when needed, but not insults and curses.

~Steve
Title: Re: Demon Worship
Post by: Watchtower on January 08, 2008, 08:36:16 PM
Regardless of the nature of demons or whether they can learn "right" from "wrong," they aren't rocks either, they are sentient beings, I presume.  You can just as easily pick up a rock and move it as kick it, and if the rock is actually an entity, it seems you are just as bad as a demon if you needlessly inflict suffering on another being, regardless of whether that being would do the same to you if given the chance, and I think that is more Steve's point (though correct me if I'm wrong).  I find it hard to believe that one needs to insult and curse and thrash at something just to maintain a mental guard, it seems counterintuitive to me, though binding it makes sense.  I deal with untrustworthy entities on a regular basis, who would stab me in the back the first chance they got (and one did), but even they aren't as one-dimensional as the type of entity that is being described here, so take my words with a grain of salt.

EDIT: Bah, damn my slowness in replying!
Title: Re: Demon Worship
Post by: Saer on January 08, 2008, 08:37:51 PM
It pertains to what I said, but I disagree with it. A Divine status should be one of authority and severity when needed, but not insults and curses.

~Steve

I have spoke of no such thing as curses or insults. Divine status is of authority, which is in relation to necessity and consciousness in God.
Title: Re: Demon Worship
Post by: ShadowStriker on January 08, 2008, 08:39:06 PM
yikes, just know what you're dealing with mang, dont want yourself to be dragged into another verse
Title: Re: Demon Worship
Post by: Veos on January 09, 2008, 11:04:52 AM
Steve, do you presume that Christ and his apostles just asked the demon to politely leave the host?  No.  They "command" the demon out.  They don't "ask" the demon to leave.  This is an ample demonstration of the mind-set that is needed for working with Demons.  They are treated in a manner so that they have no choices to make.  You become the sole authority.  Perhaps the best biblical example is the possessed man of Gadarenese in Mark 5:2-13, the famous "I am Legion for we are Many" incident.  The image painted is that of a begging demonic being pleading for mercy that Christ not torment them (which implies he had done such before!).  Finally after a great deal of begging (which also implies they had to convince Christ NOT to torment them for it says "and they besought him much that he would not send them out of the country").  He then relents a little, or so it seems, and instead sends them to just as same a fate by driving them into a bunch of swine (a far fall from a human host!) and then driving them into the ocean to drown to death.  Exorcism Rites follow the same guidelines in as much that the demon is dealt with for what it is, a Demon, and then cursed and bound in the name of Christ to be driven from the host.  It says everywhere in the Bible that the demons aren't just commanded but are even "rebuked". 

   If these divine men were able to do such things without lowering themselves spiritually, why should you believe a magician would be an exception to this?  Within the Circle The Adept is God, Without the Circle the Adept is God.  How then is God to be brought down in his dealings with a demon?  In the Circle the Magician stands as the voice and authority of God to all those who he would call before him, because the Circle is the Holy Ground upon which the Magician exalts his mind to a reflection of Divine Will. 

   Still, the easiest and most recommended route of dealing with demons is simple......Don't!     
Title: Re: Demon Worship
Post by: Steve on January 10, 2008, 07:33:43 AM
"Steve, do you presume that Christ and his apostles just asked the demon to politely leave the host?  No.  They "command" the demon out.  They don't "ask" the demon to leave."
*sigh* You know, this is really getting annoying. I'm not jumping to the extreme opposite of what you're saying, I'm saying that you being on the extreme side that you're on is wrong and that you should go back towards a balance point. I did not dispute the idea of Authority or commanding, what I disputed was the desire to treat the demon like garbage. A person in authority should prove themselves worthwhile to have that authority by not abusing either the authority or the people under them.



But, if we're going to talk about what the bible says, let's quote it properly so everyone can judge for themselves:

Matthew 8
The Healing of Two Demon-possessed Men
 28When he arrived at the other side in the region of the Gadarenes,[d] two demon-possessed men coming from the tombs met him. They were so violent that no one could pass that way. 29"What do you want with us, Son of God?" they shouted. "Have you come here to torture us before the appointed time?"

 30Some distance from them a large herd of pigs was feeding. 31The demons begged Jesus, "If you drive us out, send us into the herd of pigs."

 32He said to them, "Go!" So they came out and went into the pigs, and the whole herd rushed down the steep bank into the lake and died in the water. 33Those tending the pigs ran off, went into the town and reported all this, including what had happened to the demon-possessed men. 34Then the whole town went out to meet Jesus. And when they saw him, they pleaded with him to leave their region.
Matthew 8:28 Some manuscripts Gergesenes; others Gerasenes


Mark 5
The Healing of a Demon-possessed Man
 1They went across the lake to the region of the Gerasenes.[a] 2When Jesus got out of the boat, a man with an evil(b) spirit came from the tombs to meet him. 3This man lived in the tombs, and no one could bind him any more, not even with a chain. 4For he had often been chained hand and foot, but he tore the chains apart and broke the irons on his feet. No one was strong enough to subdue him. 5Night and day among the tombs and in the hills he would cry out and cut himself with stones.

 6When he saw Jesus from a distance, he ran and fell on his knees in front of him. 7He shouted at the top of his voice, "What do you want with me, Jesus, Son of the Most High God? Swear to God that you won't torture me!" 8For Jesus had said to him, "Come out of this man, you evil spirit!"

 9Then Jesus asked him, "What is your name?"

   "My name is Legion," he replied, "for we are many." 10And he begged Jesus again and again not to send them out of the area.

 11A large herd of pigs was feeding on the nearby hillside. 12The demons begged Jesus, "Send us among the pigs; allow us to go into them." 13He gave them permission, and the evil spirits came out and went into the pigs. The herd, about two thousand in number, rushed down the steep bank into the lake and were drowned.

 14Those tending the pigs ran off and reported this in the town and countryside, and the people went out to see what had happened. 15When they came to Jesus, they saw the man who had been possessed by the legion of demons, sitting there, dressed and in his right mind; and they were afraid. 16Those who had seen it told the people what had happened to the demon-possessed man—and told about the pigs as well. 17Then the people began to plead with Jesus to leave their region.

 18As Jesus was getting into the boat, the man who had been demon-possessed begged to go with him. 19Jesus did not let him, but said, "Go home to your family and tell them how much the Lord has done for you, and how he has had mercy on you." 20So the man went away and began to tell in the Decapolis[c]how much Jesus had done for him. And all the people were amazed.
Mark 5:1 Some manuscripts Gadarenes; other manuscripts Gergesenes
Mark 5:2 Greek unclean; also in verses 8 and 13
Mark 5:20 That is, the Ten Cities


Luke 8
The Healing of a Demon-possessed Man
 26They sailed to the region of the Gerasenes,(b) which is across the lake from Galilee. 27When Jesus stepped ashore, he was met by a demon-possessed man from the town. For a long time this man had not worn clothes or lived in a house, but had lived in the tombs. 28When he saw Jesus, he cried out and fell at his feet, shouting at the top of his voice, "What do you want with me, Jesus, Son of the Most High God? I beg you, don't torture me!" 29For Jesus had commanded the evil[c] spirit to come out of the man. Many times it had seized him, and though he was chained hand and foot and kept under guard, he had broken his chains and had been driven by the demon into solitary places.

 30Jesus asked him, "What is your name?"

   "Legion," he replied, because many demons had gone into him. 31And they begged him repeatedly not to order them to go into the Abyss.

 32A large herd of pigs was feeding there on the hillside. The demons begged Jesus to let them go into them, and he gave them permission. 33When the demons came out of the man, they went into the pigs, and the herd rushed down the steep bank into the lake and was drowned.

 34When those tending the pigs saw what had happened, they ran off and reported this in the town and countryside, 35and the people went out to see what had happened. When they came to Jesus, they found the man from whom the demons had gone out, sitting at Jesus' feet, dressed and in his right mind; and they were afraid. 36Those who had seen it told the people how the demon-possessed man had been cured. 37Then all the people of the region of the Gerasenes asked Jesus to leave them, because they were overcome with fear. So he got into the boat and left.

 38The man from whom the demons had gone out begged to go with him, but Jesus sent him away, saying, 39"Return home and tell how much God has done for you." So the man went away and told all over town how much Jesus had done for him.
Luke 8:26 Some manuscripts Gadarenes; other manuscripts Gergesenes; also in verse 37
Luke 8:29 Greek unclean



Notes:
Now, first point I see that is different from your post is that the demons say in Matthew "Have you come here to torture us before the appointed time?" This part is left out of the Luke and Mark versions and gives an alternate reason for why the demon was afraid, apart from your conclusion that it implies he has tortured them before.

Next, Luke gives another altenate explaination as to why the Demons begged "much" to be cast into the pigs, so that they wouldn't have to go to the Abyss instead. Again, nothing to do with Jesus torturing them, and in fact this would have been an act of mercy on Jesus' part, to allow them to live on Earth with the capability of tormenting people more rather than being put into a cage and tortured as they evidently know they will eventually be.

Next, Jesus did not drive them into the ocean to drown, they did that themselves.

As for rebuking, was not even Peter Simon rebuked by Jesus? Rebuking is not such a bad thing as torture and insulting.

Again, since you don't seem to get it, my point is that you, Veos, said that one should curse and insult a demon (or rather, brought up the point that "there is a reason why" old grimoires say to do such a thing), which goes beyond binding and commanding and even rebuking.

~Steve
Title: Re: Demon Worship
Post by: Veos on January 10, 2008, 04:35:19 PM
Correct.  Thank you for the extra insight into the bible quotes.  Ultimately I suppose it lies on experience and practice.  So far, my practice and that of hundreds of other magicians throughout the ages has shown that a demon must be treated in a certain manner, and that the magician's equilibrium is not effected at all by this. 
Title: Re: Demon Worship
Post by: MikeWho on January 11, 2008, 06:28:50 PM
I am under the impression that a demon has a much deeper insight into what is right and wrong, far more so than what a human may.. which is also making a human subject to manipulation, a little more easier...

Steve.. did I misunderstand that you are implying that demons may be trained?

Also, I am a lacking understanding in this whole topic... in the scenario of Enoch... (please forgive me for not having direct verses as this is from memory)

That Enoch spoke with the fallen angels, which pleaded and begged him to speak with the Father, so that he may have mercy on them, and show his forgiveness...

However, when Enoch went to the Father with their request,, the Father became even more spiteful towards them (my understanding) saying to Enoch that "They were still in the wrong, because they are begging and pleading for forgiveness and mercy, rather than praying for all of manking to be shown forgiveness and mercy...."

This quote from the Father was the most interesting to me, as it shows that the Demons were not really sorry, but just did not want the wrath.... assuming that they were sorry that they were caught.... rather..... the Father, understanding a deeper point..... that they were still unforgivable, as their minds were not occupied with the salvation of manking, rather the salvation of their own....
Title: Re: Demon Worship
Post by: Raitaro on January 15, 2008, 09:41:24 AM
Don't reason with it. Don't argue wtih it. Just dominate it.
Title: Re: Demon Worship
Post by: majikasm on January 15, 2008, 04:42:58 PM
Hello darkcandle
Approach:

1. Treating the demon with respect and honor
2. Chanting name of demon, visual focus on sigil
3. Incensing sigil with fragrance of plant listed with demon's planet
4. Daily thanks for past favors
5. Placing sigil under pillow at night
6. Offering wine, fresh plant listed with demon's planet, and water on a plain altar

Environmental observations:
1. A sweet smell, at times overpowering, comes and goes
2. Ripples through the air, like something moving through water
3. Pockets of what appears to be heat vapor as the type you see rising from hot objects like pavement, in midair moving and fading away
4. Candles rising and crackling noises during meditation
5. Crackling noises or popping in the air without candles lit

Communication Methods From Demon:
1. All through dreams, information given to me beyond my wildest dreams, dream images range from obvious to heavy symbolism

~~~~~~~~Darkcandle...I applaud you for your successes...after all...someone's magic is only as good as their successes...........With a few personal changes, the outline you've posted is basically how I do things too....I hope this doesn't get me into trouble here...but I've found (speaking strictly for myself)...that Dee's theory was flawed...and so, his 'method' was also flawed.. impractical......workable and useable yes!...but impractical.............
 I've replaced the rigidity of Goetia with the less formal,more relaxed Shadow Guild based ritual style and incorporarted that with (hopefully)the correct lunar phases and other considerations and an astral/dream manifestation is almost always likely to occur. I've had a few good successes myself Darkcandle...



Title: Re: Demon Worship
Post by: Raitaro on January 16, 2008, 07:26:21 AM
Do you mind describing a few of these successes?
Title: Re: Demon Worship
Post by: majikasm on January 16, 2008, 10:13:13 PM
Do you mind describing a few of these successes?
I cannot speak for Darkcandle's successes....and I would prefer not to speak of my own...

..I hope that does not seem offensive or snobbish to anyone..but..as I 'm sure some here can attest..secrecy is a sure source of majick inspiration..I'm sure you'll understand if I keep my secrets for now......However....the flow of this thread is, as I see it...making successful contact with 'demonic' entities through an 'invitational' ritual (as opposed to an evo/invo) and remembering it......... Darkcandle has claimed 'success' and I take that to mean that she has indeed enjoyed a communion with a spiritual being on an astral plane..non-advesarial and it would appear..quite pleasant.....That, to me sounds like the gateway to true majick........Bravo Darkcandle!!!!........You know..it blows my mind every time I think about it...stop and consider whats said here....we are speaking of.....Ritual induced communication with an 'un-born' life.....its rather evolutionary if you ask me..................
Title: Re: Demon Worship
Post by: Raitaro on January 17, 2008, 08:38:11 AM
yes, I'm sure we all understand. :)
Title: Re: Demon Worship
Post by: majikasm on January 17, 2008, 02:33:26 PM
> The first Tome of the Book of
> Arbatel of Magick
> called
> ISAGOGE, or, A Book of the Institutions of
> Magick: or fourty and nine Aphorisms comprehendeth, the most
> general
> Precepts of the whole Art.
>
> The first Septenary of Aphorisms.
> The first Aphorism.
> Whosoever would know Secrets, let him know how to keep secret things
> secretly;


http://www.ofs-demonolatry.org/about.htm
Title: Re: Demon Worship
Post by: Warstar on January 18, 2008, 10:30:16 PM
Tips on evocation before you start: ......Don't.

    Many magicians have worked with demons and they have all formed the same opinion: No matter how nice, gentle or wise a demon may appear, it is still a Demon and eventually will act like one.  There is a reason why grimoires tell the magician to treat a Demon like a bastard slave with insults and curses.  From personal experience I can tell you that every demon shows its face eventually.  The very fact that you have worked with this being without the proper use of a ritual evocation shows that you lack the magickal experience to be evoking in the first place.  Why on Earth would you deal with a demon without the proper safe-guards established in ritual?  there is nothing a demon can do that an Angel or planetary spirit can't.  Chances are the creature has already started working on your mind, though you will of course be totally unaware of it until it is too late, assuming the being you have been experiencing is indeed the demon you were hoping to contact (which it probably isn't).  Demons are master decievers!  they are the best actors the universe knows.  I'm well aware that despite any warnings you receive you will still probably continue on with your plan, but know this: If you had fully developed clairvoyance, you would be able to see that creature's real form, and it would frighten you the likes of which no other thing in this physical world could do. 

   Basically, use some common sense.  A demon is a DEMON.  There is a reason it is called that.  Only after a few years of experience in evoking other beings should the infernal realms be dealt with by the magician.  If you evoke this demon and the demon actually shows (unlikely unless you have a great deal of experience.  An elemental posing as the demon will probably show) then you would have found yourself in a hole that is very hard to get out of. 

Since clairyvoyance isn't a luxury I have or really care about having, tell me, what makes you absolutely positive that demons are completely out for nothing more than the summoner's blood? You're claiming that they are malicious, 'A demon is a DEMON. There is a reason it is called that' mentality tells me you think yourself superior to them. By what cause and reason exactly?

'Demons are master decievers!' hmm.. in my case, the one I asked didn't decieve me. I had no nightmares caused by it, I was neither tortured nor harmed. A simple trade was made and given to effect. Going with that reasoning,, an 'angel' states in order to prevent the infection, rip off the arm and leave the person crushed, yet a demon says to cure it at the source. If your reasoning says that the 'angel' is correct, I would say common sense, logic, and rationale dictate you are wrong.

On yet another note, what makes you absolutely positive that you're correct?
Title: Re: Demon Worship
Post by: Raitaro on January 19, 2008, 06:19:03 AM
Quote
'Demons are master decievers!' hmm.. in my case, the one I asked didn't decieve me. I had no nightmares caused by it, I was neither tortured nor harmed
You do know that none of that or anythnig that comes after suggests you haven't been decieved in some way.
Title: Re: Demon Worship
Post by: Lexie on January 19, 2008, 02:18:15 PM
Am I the only one here that understands the context of the message that Veos has given in this discussion?

Quote
Since clairyvoyance isn't a luxury I have or really care about having, tell me, what makes you absolutely positive that demons are completely out for nothing more than the summoner's blood? You're claiming that they are malicious, 'A demon is a DEMON. There is a reason it is called that' mentality tells me you think yourself superior to them. By what cause and reason exactly?

A demon is a demon because it is the representation of a beast; an ego. The instinct of that kind is based on disharmony, ignorance and selfishness. Ever thought why demons, trolls, etc, are so "ugly"? Because their kind are out of shape, which means the expression/manifestation of their "body" is from nature disharmonious.

What I understood from Veos' point is that it is pointless to build a friendship with demons and have respect and love for them, because they would NEVER have it for you. Why? Because it is their instinct, they don't know better. It is their existence, and this is why Veos mentions "a demon is a demon, and there is a REASON why it is called like that".

Even if you think your relation with a demon is just going well and nothing "bad" happens, you still should know that the demon is ALWAYS seeking and trying to find a way to control you, to curse you and share his selfishness with you. That's why it is necessary to build a wall/shield between you and the demon, because that is the ONLY way to have a safe and controlled relation with them. With the wall between you and the demon, the demon is not able to find an opening to the weak spots of yourself and with that, it is not able to control, curse, play, etc, with you.

Title: Re: Demon Worship
Post by: MikeWho on January 19, 2008, 02:51:24 PM
 am under the impression that a demon has a much deeper insight into what is right and wrong, far more so than what a human may.. which is also making a human subject to manipulation, a little more easier...

Steve.. did I misunderstand that you are implying that demons may be trained?

Also, I am a lacking understanding in this whole topic... in the scenario of Enoch... (please forgive me for not having direct verses as this is from memory)

That Enoch spoke with the fallen angels, which pleaded and begged him to speak with the Father, so that he may have mercy on them, and show his forgiveness...

However, when Enoch went to the Father with their request,, the Father became even more spiteful towards them (my understanding) saying to Enoch that "They were still in the wrong, because they are begging and pleading for forgiveness and mercy, rather than praying for all of manking to be shown forgiveness and mercy...."

This quote from the Father was the most interesting to me, as it shows that the Demons were not really sorry, but just did not want the wrath.... assuming that they were sorry that they were caught.... rather..... the Father, understanding a deeper point..... that they were still unforgivable, as their minds were not occupied with the salvation of manking, rather the salvation of their own....
Title: Re: Demon Worship
Post by: Lexie on January 19, 2008, 02:57:01 PM
And, to be honoust I have no experience with demons at all. But there is something I would like to add;

Quote
There is a reason it is called that' mentality tells me you think yourself superior to them

Ofcourse, everything is equall. Everything has its right on their own excistence. But you should ask yourself; is an angel superior to a demon?

In my opinion this is a yes, an angel is superior to a demon because it is much closer to God, which means that an angel is more in harmony, perfection and love than a demon is.

Why should you trait a demon with respect and love, if it doesn't even KNOW respect and love? A demon should be traited with curses and pain, because that is the only thing that a demon knows and because it excists out of pain and curses.

And, in my opinion, this still doesn't means that you lower yourself with this.

Imagine this situation for yourself; if a normal person asks a question to an enlightened person, do you think the enlightened person answers with the most deepest and complex answers, which the normal person doesn't understand at all? No, ofcourse not. An enlightened person "tunes" his answer to the questioner, which means that the questioner gets the answer that "fits" most with himself.

This situation is the same as how a magician/enlightened traits a demon; the magician tunes his behaviour/manner which is best for the demon.
Title: Re: Demon Worship
Post by: darkcandle on January 19, 2008, 05:17:39 PM
Hello wonderful people at vsociety.net! Thank you for all the wonderful responses! I am pleased this topic has received such a number of intelligent posts from friendly people. I asked for tips and I received many! Thank you. I would like to respond to those kind individuals here at vsociety.net who have taken the time to give me their time and their kind opinions. In the next week I plan on sitting down and doing this, post-by-post. For now, here is what I have posted on this subject on another forum. Please excuse my quoting of individuals from other forums, but I didn't want to take the time to edit it all out, so know the people I am replying to in this post are on another forum, but this is being posted here so I may reply to this thread, participate, and continue in the next week or two with responses to current posts from members here. I feel by posting this here it will add to the thread and current discussion, especially as two individuals were bringing up Bible references which I had replied to in another forum regarding.

There is so little intelligent discussion about serious individuals communicating with demons on the internet, I feel a long and patient discussion such as we have here at vsociety.net is very important! Plenty of folks talk about communications with angels, real or imagined, but not demons. Well, demons were created as angels but fell, they are important too! I look forward to posting replies to vsociety.net members from this thread soon, the following, as I mentioned, is what I posted in another forum on this topic. Please reply to any of it if you wish, as I plan on continuing this discussion here at length since there have been so many intelligent replies! Thank you vsociety.net! Also, * I have updated my original post in this thread with information I had originally intended to include *

I find it very difficult to find any intelligent discussion of the Goetia or serious workings with demons. The closest I have come to witnessing calm, interesting discussions of this type was when I was skimming old posts in some alt.magick groups. The few other forums I have discovered which mention the Goetia are either short on details, discussions which quickly turn into fighting matches, or any useful content quickly vanishes through mysterious events never fully disclosed and no useful info. remaining. I'm beginning to wonder, based on my experiences, if Goetic studies lead to such a success the useful information is blacked out on purpose. Considering the relationship of many of the notable occultists of old and their interest in math, medicine, and study of the nature and workings of the world in general, some curious world events (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Paperclip) lead me to consider the possibility of goetic studies continuing at higher levels than your average armchair evoker.

In addition to the "Environmental observations" I listed above, I do receive odd but not disturbing feelings of being lightly "touched" sometimes, sometimes like a point of a pencil but soft not hard moving across my skin. I had never felt anything like this prior to my experience with the Goetia, at first I dismissed it as nerves. To add to the "Approach" section, I have noticed very recently, as in the past few weeks, in addition to placing the demon's sigil beneath my pillow at night before sleep, I have sometimes chosen instead to place it directly against my back near the base of my neck, for some reason it begins to feel very warm, tingly, and provides an almost erotic rush. My mind often blanks as I meditate on the sigil in my mind and drift off to sleep. What is the effect, symbolic or realised, to applying the sigil to this area for large amounts of time? Perhaps a psychological effect of closeness with my mind making up these sensations? I could dismiss it as such just as with the sensations on skin and nerves mentioned above. In all previous experiences with other religions and deities or spirits, I've never received such "proof", if you will, of visualized external and bodily phenomena.

@bym:
"Greetings Leechmob!
Well....why ask for suggestions if you already know it all? No offense, please. You are in serious danger"


Hello bym! Of course, I do not know it all, no offense taken. I hope I did not come across as offensive, but I said, "I've done my research, which is not to suggest a convoluted ego" to allow the reader to clearly see I am not suggesting to be an expert. I honor your response and invite you gracefully to continue to add to this discussion with your experiences should it merit your time. If I am offending you by any attempt to draw you out of your decision to have made a final post, I apologise, but please know I am interested in further discussion with you on this matter should you wish to kindly change your mind. How would evoking the demon to physical manifestation at this point be suicidal? Let us look at this from a different perspective: the god of the Bible. No offense intended to believers of any particular faith, I'm juggling this as a comparison as it relates to spirits falling, heh, under the related religion.

The god of the Bible demanded blood sacrifices in the Old Testament, killed many humans, flooded the Earth, threw humans into chaos when they became too unified (tower of Babel), punished one human harshly for offering plants instead of animals, relied on a scapegoat (Satan) to punish humans (like Job) with terrible fury instead of doing the job himself, and so on. If one believes some or all of the demons from the Goetia are fallen angels, are they not justified in their falling away from such a creature? Read in the Old Testament how wrathful this god was, his very appearance by description could easily be said to have been demonic, creating terror. The sight of his angels instilled fear in people who saw them, leading them to say, "be not afraid" in their greetings to humans.

If the Bible tells me anything early on, it tells me that that god used his angels before they fell to punish and torture man, whether by tests of faith or mad scientist experiments, he still used them to whatever end. What evidence is there to suggest he does not use them, his "good" angels, to this end today? Are demons and Satan facing the blame for what god's angels may be doing on behalf of god only to be exorcised in the name of god? What are vaccines made from? Quite ironic if you think about that one. In the New Testament everything under the sun was blamed on Satan and demons. I did find it ironic that Jesus honored the demons request to send them into the pigs, which they then drowned and likely ate. Perhaps the others who said Jesus commanded by powers of demons were not far off after all.

But that's another story, my intent here is not to delve into the Bible as there are unlimited ways to interpret scripture from any religion. When you look at it this way, how can the fallen angels be the ones in the wrong here? How can they be the evil ones? Let us assume they are the evil ones, how does their creator measure up on the scale of morality? Should he not be the one sent to an eternal lake of fire? Why would a loving god create animals to be killed in his name which viciously hunt each other down and eat each other, and some of his creatures which parade animal skins as trophies and mindlessly devour their meat without more thought than it takes to squeeze a ketchup bottle? We could also compare the fallen angels to other gods of the past, including the ones of more primal religions whether they are similar to or in reality the gods themselves or different faces of them, or whether it's worse to approach a fallen angel with devotion rather than a primal god of old, but again I'm trying to make a comparison here within the realm of the religion(s) these spirits are claimed to originate from.

bym, if you suggest my approach is wrong, what would you suggest I do now were I to follow your advice? Thank you.

@Imperial Arts:
"Which spirit?"


It is one of the Earls. I have read your generous entries on your live journal, which I hope sees more updates as it is wonderful stuff, so know that I know you go into detail and name specific entities at the beginning, but this is all I can say, as per relationship with said entity, I mean no offense in only mentioning the title.

@Imperial Arts:
"Can you describe some of the things you have gained from the spirit, apart from communication with it?"


Deep insight into future events, often showing them exactly as they are to and eventually happen within days or weeks usually sooner than later, events appearing sooner are closer, events appearing later appear farther away (if the dreams do not appear exactly as they occur, they are shrouded in symbolism which is impressive as the ordinary joe would likely dismiss fanciful dreams for fantasy and nothing more, sometimes portions of the symbolic dreams I have to work out but it never requires too much effort as the demon is quite brilliant in the use of symbolism), warnings of events to happen in the next day or days ahead, revealing answers in dreams in response to direct questions asked when I was awake, healing any cold, fever, flu within hours without requiring medication (though playing devil's advocate I've also read about demons causing sickness in order to appear miraculous in healing it, so who knows), lessons on self-improvement. Thus far I have chosen to make only a few short requests of the demon to be revealed in dreams, not wanting to treat him as a wish-granter (have you ever seen the movie wishmaster?), but as an entity I respect. Every other detail he has revealed to me has been of his initiative, which I have always thanked him for, and thank him here now in public for.

One odd event which I'm not sure how to interpret occurred, I had a dream which involved objects which would later injure me through an accident the next day, leaving a lasting scar on me. In another dream later I was shown this wound with worm shaped bright energy shooting through it, and was told something about this being where power originated. Anyone able to shed light on this would be helpful, the only possible thing I could see this event as was forewarning or a mark of some sort being imprinted on purpose. When I think about it, in the beginning there were between three to five small accidents where I would receive a cut enough to bleed slightly, or experience random nosebleeds I had never had before. The scar and the dreams before and after stump me as to the why and what for.

I have noticed other odd events pointing to the demon in my waking life, too numerous to add here in any short amount of time. One interesting note: others can smell the same scent as I have noticed, the sweet, musky odor which comes and goes. This is funny, I always read about angels giving off a sweet scent when they are around to a certain degree, and that demons always gave off a terrible odor. Thoughts?

@Imperial Arts:
"If you were to make a "long-term" pact with this spirit, what sort of advantages and securities would you want that to include?"


This is something I haven't worked through yet, as I have read time and again of the warnings of pacts with entities and loopholes they appear to exploit when entering one without proper wording. Great Faust! This is another reason I asked for advice since the presentation of the scroll in a dream led me to believe the spirit was interested in a pact, being as our courting to date has been smooth.

@Imperial Arts:
"Unless I am mistaken, you are the one who decided what things to use in your approach. Has the spirit suggested anything further for you to do, or anything that you should not do? "


Correct, I decided on the approach, and the results have shown I haven't failed to receive notice, contact, and results. The spirit asked for wine, which I have given, after I had been offering water to it for months. When I initially failed to purchase wine for it, it showed me in a dream about making wine with fruit, but I went ahead and bought some wine rather than trying some ghetto approach to wine making. When I did ask him if there were an easier way to communicate with it, as in in a waking state and directly conversing with it, I had a dream that night of a pig running around before falling in mud, and I had never had a dream of a pig or pigs before. I did not wake up and throw a bunch of bacon on the altar, so I hope I did not offend it by failing to answer this request, if it did in fact want some pork. (Luke 8:33, anyone?) I can't set out anything which will attract ants or other bugs, I limit my food and drink offerings to wine, other expensive drinks containing alcohol, large glasses of water, and plants related to the spirit's planet which I grow myself. I can't remember there being anything the spirit asked me not to do, but I believe this would be something to address the spirit with in the future evocation.

@Imperial Arts:
"Do you really want to have this demon as your god, or is this activity just a way to arrange for assistance from a spirit you believe to be powerful?"


I have not ruled out the former or the latter. Thank you Imperial Arts.

@Vagrant Dreamer:
"And this didn't send up any kind of a red flag for you? Have you considered the possible consequences for the eventuality that you might want to at some point accomplish something outside the purview of this particular demon's influence?"


Excellent point and questions, thank you. Yes, but being new to the Goetia, I thought it best as I have read elsewhere, to move slowly with one demon at a time rather than bouncing around. Was I misinformed? I appreciate your kind attention and points in the remainder of your post, a very nice read, thank you.

@Vagrant Dreamer:
"Why is it that every demons who's purpose you read about is something like, "Grants treasure from far away" or "incites the love of men in women" or, "can furnish and army with weapons.""


Satan offering Jesus the world for a bended knee, Buddha and Mara, etc. Your points in your paragraph and really worth mentioning in this thread, it's true. I have always favored spiritual development vs. feeding materialistic desires, but I suppose when compared to my past experiences with spirituality, various deities, and the whole lot of it, my encounters with the Goetia have been so shockingly rewarding and interesting, I find myself wanting more. Thus, the cling to the material, the tangible. You mention, the "karmic nature of pacts". Yes, I understand this, but what if one did not mind serving the spirit in its' realm eventually should a pact be made? If you choose to believe in a heaven or hell, those who would go to heaven would spend eternity worshipping and glorifying god, singing like the angels and such, right? Lots of people see heaven as a place where they can have all they want, but scripture says otherwise, like the angels, it'll be about worship. Any rational individual will see that as clearly "serving" the creature, god, whatever you wish to call him, of that particular religion's heaven. What's the difference?

@Vagrant Dreamer:
"These aren't just empty acts" "All of this interaction is symbolic"


True, brilliant, and well said. As for "manifesting poltergeist phenomenon", I have noticed knocking noises, objects moved from places I had originally placed them, other people in the same dwelling have noticed the same sweet smells coming and going as well as objects falling more often than they should for no reason, items knocked off of shelves but not in an overtly malicious or obvious way, and crackling noises or popping sounds. "giving you sores" Strange nose bleeds, some extreme pressure in the ears which lasts for several days or weeks then mysteriously vanishes. Accidents, as I mentioned earlier, coming out of nowhere but nothing serious. I wanted to address this part as I have experienced some strange things but I do see and agree with the point you were making in that paragraph. Thank you.

--------------------------------
Imperial Arts, especially, but anyone else as well, do you have anything else to add prior to my pending evocation? Any comments on what I have said so far, regarding my experiences, the dream and the 'mark', etc.? I have a few questions for you, should you wish to entertain me kindly with your advice:

1. In my first post, I mentioned some disturbances in the environment, are these experiences or some of them to a certain degree experiences you have enjoyed as well as an indication of a presence? In particular, are vague signs of movement and heat vapor a sign of manifestation or simply an indication of a force being present? Are there any notable signs you have experienced which solidify the reality of a particular entity being present? Are many signs unique to each spirit or is there a common phenomena to them all?

2. Have you ever had another entity other than the one you called show up? If so, how did you deal with said entity?

3. What method do you use to confirm the entity is the one you called?

4. You have mentioned on your live journal, at least a few times, of spirits commenting on how wise you were in affording yourself some degree of protection. In each evocation, does the spirit come forth quickly, or do you feel there is some time where it lingers about in whatever manner of perceptible phenomena and observes your state before manifesting?

5. Based on what I have written so far, do you feel it wise I continue with an evocation, an evocation whereby I use no traditional approach, but call forth the demon using his sigil, name, and office through a personalized ritual? Or, should I continue with the current Approach with this demon and allow him to manifest if he so desires outside my volition?

6. If no license to depart is given, what is the best way to end the evocation, since my Approach would be one of worship rather than of constraint? In short, the room I so honor this demon in could be considered a small chapel, I don't mind at all should his presence remain, as I feel to some degree it always does as I don't banish.

7. When calling on the entity do you use their name as given with English pronunciation, Latin, or Hebrew? In which language do you write their name?

8. Evocation aside, when I notice sweet smells or obvious visual phenomena as mentioned above, is this the spirit trying to get my attention and something I should never ignore but always respond to? Or is it merely the spirit in the vicinity for whatever reason?

9. Any other tips, advice, or musings?

@Loki:
"I'd be interested to know if before working this way you attempted other ways of working, such as the traditional way the grimoires suggest, or more contempory angle."


No, I had not attempted other ways of working, traditional or otherwise. I poured over texts for years before deciding to go with my rather loose but direct approach, feeling it best for me, and so far I have been delighted with the results. I don't believe anyone has the time in this lifetime to get to the bottom of the reality of what each supposed action, gesture, word, phrase, cake-walk ritual pattern, and so forth may truly mean, only a perception thereof, or a foundation of experience which may be contrary in reality. I could choke on a pretzel tomorrow, or be hit by a bus, I'd rather go one-on-one with a spirit should I seek his attention for whatever reason. If millions of people can approach the jealous and vicious blood lusting god of the Bible without protections, so too will I continue to approach one of the once and still beautiful fallen angels, should this in reality be what they are, or not, without any real or imagined protections or approval from a god they clearly oppose, and with good reason.

If a traditional approach works for others, which I don't doubt as rituals are something deeply rooted in the history of man, often beautiful and powerful and missing in the Western world today, unless you count the more secularized events, football games, devotions plopped within communist China funding shopping carts at Our Lady of WalMart, or minor life experiences of a trivial nature, great, I respect the approach and understand the reasons for and often the need. I considered the traditional approach and haven't ruled out future experiments, but at the moment I feel a simpler and more direct approach based on my beliefs is appropriate. To some, and perhaps rightly so, I am skirting the rational, the tried and true traditional approach, and opting to settle for a nibble at the peanut butter slathered on a spiritual mousetrap. Know I appreciate and consider all advice from all posters serious and considerate enough to reply. Thank you.

Before I narrowed down my devotion to this one demon and I was contacting another, I experienced a presence in the room near two glasses of water I had left out for both demons, one had gone empty and I had forgotten to fill it promptly. There was this feeling of what I can only crudely describe as chaos and absolute wrong. A feeling like at any moment something bad could happen, mixed with the feeling you have when someone is standing before you, a presence, but I could not see anything standing or otherwise visible before me. That was the only time I can say I banished whatever it was, out of fear, or stupidity, being new to dealings with spirits of the Goetia. It was also around the time when I experienced the disturbing dream I mentioned earlier which led me to believe I should focus only on the one demon I had been establishing a relationship with. With this exception noted in the beginning, I never banish.

Since then, I haven't felt such a direct, localized to one region in the room, disturbing presence, but the room has taken on a powerful feeling, like something massive beyond my comprehension is there, or filling it to the brim, much like walking into a room with thousands of eyes watching you at once. I often hesitate when I first come close to opening the door to enter the room, or when I do and begin walking through the room to turn on a light, I know something is there, the feeling is heavy and with me always. It's not a bad feeling, but it is a strong one, almost like a pressure or weight. It is a similar feeling as the one I have often felt when visiting places of devout worship, churches and temples. I did awake once to hear a plastic shopping bag I had placed high on a shelf move and make a loud noise with no window open, no drafts or fan running. I take it to have been something leaving the room in that direction when I was waking up. Why it would want to leave so abruptly upon my waking, I don't know. This leads me to a possible idea, if all or certain spirits generate some type of force through the air as they move, and may not be detectable if they move through walls, would not lining the walls with some type of noisy material be beneficial as to pick up their entering and exiting by sound? An ugly and obviously undesirable choice could be tin foil, as it would make a loud noise should something like this pass through it, I'm sure more attractive choices are available.

How many religions banish their gods, saints, and or angels after worship or prayer? "But demons are different!" many cry. Perhaps, or perhaps it's popular perception, no doubt originating in how the god treated the angels, his beautiful creations, if this is true, which eventually fell. Who liberated man from "the garden"? If gaining knowledge is so evil to this god, as it must be, as when man strove for unification (Tower of Babel) and knowledge (Eden's fruit) he was punished. When man, as many believe, cavorted with fallen angels and of them an offspring came to be, god decided to piss in the fish bowl and flood everyone save a man and his boat. Perhaps the god fearing magician should not call upon him when seeking the wisdom of the demons? According to the Bible such sorcery and council is forbidden to begin with. If he is not god fearing, he is using the god of the Bible, under whatever guise he leads himself to believe (inner light, etc. but he still reads from the Bible and calls upon this other god, in some texts), to enter into communication with demons. Would this not incur the wrath of said deity?

But perhaps it is really through blasphemy of a certain kind by these acts that lead the demons so ever quickly and visibly to the magician? Regardless of your method, number of magical names and symbols used, just because it works and appears to be safe, when you examine this god of the Bible and his view on these cast out angels, man's approaches towards bettering himself through knowledge, especially knowledge from "beyond", do you really think you're operating under his, or his holy angel's power or protection? I seriously doubt it. The liberal use and calling of various angels from the Bible for whatever fancy ritual the magician so decides amuses me to no end. The question is, can you carve out these "divine" entities from the religion and use them apart from their origins? We can water down their origins to delude whatever fancy, but if you're using the angels and the god of the Bible as a tool, clearly this is of the LHP and I doubt it works under the power of the angels/god themselves. Instead, I suggest the entities which do appear are demons, appearing as they may, as angels of light as the Bible itself clearly states. Either way, I believe the demons are dealt with directly, and I'd rather be on direct and good terms with them. I am offering this as food for thought, feel free to dismiss it as wacky deluded nonsense from a nutter obviously deluded by the demon he worships. Or, throw back a verbal basket of fish so I may feast upon the knowledge.

Some believe spirits are all on some internal level only, being portions of the brain. The external phenomena I and others have witnessed would lead me to believe otherwise, unless this is yet another part of the mind. Of course, on an occult level, especially with chaos magick, people can and do freely call upon just about any deity, or facet of, from any religion. I'm not knocking that or any approach to the demons, after all, what do I or any of us really know, what can we prove together as a species about these unseen wonders? At best, most view occultists as crazy anyway, yet many serious followers of the big three religions devoted to the same invisible god are busy fighting each other over their holy lands and beliefs over the same creature and how he should be worshipped, now that's insane, and how many years has it been going on? Before anyone says, "you're way off, I don't use these divine names with any belief or relation to their supposed origin" that's cool, I was just going with where a lot of people believe these demons to have originated.

I have begun to increase my reverence for the demon:

- Upon waking, entering the room, and leaving the room, standing before the altar and bowing to the sigil of the demon and stating his name and adding a mention of his greatness, sometimes thanking him for past favors (Should I use the word genuflect here? It sounds appropriate)
- Devoting short periods of time to drawing the demon's sigil and name over and over while focusing on the demon (all work and no play make Jack a dull boy?)
- Devoting short periods of time to holding the image of the demon's sigil in my mind with my eyes closed, doing the same with the image of how the demon appears in texts

As Imperial Arts asked in regards to having this demon as a god, it would seem that worship in such a manner has already begun? These acts can be considered worship in some degree. Is it possible a pact has already been made in my sleep, or *must* this be done when one is awake? Tales, of those there are many, some meant to be real in a historical context, others fantasy, talk of a 'mark' being placed by the entity on the individual *after* a pact has been made. Could the 'mark' I mentioned in my previous post have been after an unconscious pact was agreed to in my dreams? Or perhaps an agreement was implied by my acts of obvious worship? What would this mark be, just a placement by the entity with a substance unseen by man but real to the entity? Would it have any power over us or for us? If this 'mark' was nothing of the sort, would it have any other meaning?

"Also did you choose the spirit to contact or the spirit choose you initially."

I would like to say I chose the spirit, but I'm not so sure that's the way it really happened. I would like to say that I responded to a call.

"Also I'd be interested to know why you chose a spirit from the goetia, and not another spirit from another grimoire."

It was a certain strong, almost personal, feeling of energy I came across with this particular spirit when I looked upon the image given for it, and its sigil. My attention kept returning to him and I decided to act. I know the reason many contact a spirit from whatever tome, usually for some specific benefit the spirit would provide to the person. This did not factor in at all in contacting this spirit. There was something deeper, more of a connection to the spirit, or perhaps I merely could pick up on its power for whatever reason? Whatever the reason, this spirit is not one I commonly read people on magick forums talking about. Perhaps it has less people dealing with it compared to the more popular ones mentioned online? Out of curiosity, how many individuals would you say on average day are evoking spirits from the Goetia? Out of these, how many afford them daily devotions usually ascribed to divinity?

Why the Goetia? It "felt" different when going through the sigils. I received a more scattered, yet strong, feeling from the sigils in the other books, but the energy I felt when going through the Goetia was more pleasant to me, if that makes any sense.

@Acid:
"how do you know that the demon is who it says it is and not some imposture possing to take advantage of you?"


Aside from being directed from dreams to daily life events, accidents in daily life leading to discoveries of, and random bumps into events and materials all pointing to said demon, I now believe I know the meaning behind two different dreams I had earlier in life, before I had any knowledge of the Goetia and this particular demon, each dream pointing to a different particular of said demon. It would seem, by my guess, I was intended to contact this one demon. If this is true, why? Did I serve under it in another life, if reincarnation is your thing, or am I meant to in this one?

Were it to be another spirit, which I doubt, (but it's wise of you to ask this question and I thank you for it) how would it gain anything since I have devoted my energy and devotion towards the demon's sigil and not some impostor? I could understand if such a spirit did manifest during an evocation, and told me to use some other sigil, instead of the spirit I intended, as some have often said spirits do when evoked, but what possible benefit would a deceiver gain when I would not be returning anything to it? When I evoke the demon to manifest, other than asking for it to sign for me, how could it prove itself without a doubt to you as the one evoked?

And what of the visual forms these spirits take? I have heard all manner of descriptions, from texts, from people who claim they have evoked them, forms within mirrors, within smoke, in plain sight, and so on. As they are featured in texts, is this their true form or the form taken to frighten a religious, Bible thumping conjurer? I have taken to posting the photo of the demon on my wall, above the altar, along with the sigil and bowing and speaking to it, as some Eastern religions believe, the photo/sigil being a window to the entity. So, should it manifest in an evocation in the form presented in texts, cool. I would, upon positive verification, if that's at all possible, submit myself to its office and power.

"Also did you pick a specific demon from a specific source or did you just call something forth at random?"

I chose a specific demon from the Goetia. I poured over many texts for years before deciding upon calling anything. It was only the feeling I received from the particular demon's sigil which led me to contact the demon. So, I feel that it pushed, and I pulled. As I mentioned above, I didn't choose it based on wanting something it had to offer in its power, I chose it based on how the sigil felt to me vs. all of the others in the many grimoires I came across.
 
"Finally you mention having success with this demon, advice and so forth; but what kind of matterial gains have you actually gotten and do these, if any, justify working with this demon?"

Well, as you said, "All knowledge is matterial."

The knowledge revealed to me in dreams has gone far beyond advice, something I touched on in my last post. As for gains which you hold in your hand, like fame and fortune, and all things that float on that boat, I haven't asked for anything along those lines. I haven't asked for much of anything, really, that was not my approach, I did not contact this entity with specific requests in mind. I contacted it for the feel I got from its sigil, and I have continued contact with it because of how kind its been to me through dreams, especially the ones which manifest in reality the same day upon waking, or days later, and other odd but pleasant experiences which point to it when awake.

Curious, if humans have "freewill", if nothing is predestined, how can one dream of events before they unfold, entertain the memory of those events in the mind as they unfold in reality or after the fact?

As for justification for working with this demon, I don't believe I'm completely qualified to answer that. At least, not enough to be impartial. My experience with demons to date has been two: one lasting for several years and continues today, the other but one request which was honored quickly. The results with this demon could also be unique in regards to my approach, or not. I could be appreciating the wonders this demon is offering me while neglecting some of the other clear benefits he (and other demons) may offer me as clearly stated in the Goetia, as I have yet to inquire of these. I feel I have only begun to scratch the surface of this wonderful spirit, there is a power and depth to him which is remarkable.

I know my experiences to date seems well enough to me to justify my continued devotion, however naive that may sound being as I have not pounced on communicating with several of the goetics to know the difference. I do feel, and again it may just be me, this particular spirit wants me to continue relations with it, and may not want me to approach other spirits. Whether or not he is approached in this manner, he may be possessive. Consider, if someone devoted themselves to you with respect and kindness, would you not be the slightest bit protective of this relationship? Perhaps my past experience with monotheism has led me to wrap myself up with one spirit rather than communicating with several.

Thank you for all the responses to date, should anyone else including the past posters in this thread wish to add anything, please do.

-----------------------
Though my copy/paste of this discussion on another forum may normally be hard to follow, please note individuals often post texts to reference material and books, this is similar, but on the same subject, I look forward to replying to individuals here on this topic soon, I've been pressed for time, thank you! I don't believe in promoting other web sites, but if individuals wish to reference the posts which I replied to to follow the details in this post, see sacred-magick.org in the Ceremonial Magic thread topic "demon worship" for reference, this thread offsite: http://www.sacred-magick.org/index.php?&showtopic=5790
Title: Re: Demon Worship
Post by: majikasm on January 20, 2008, 07:16:44 PM

Darkcandle wrote: I don't believe in "dabbling" in magick,this is not idle amusement, I've done my research,which is not to suggest a convoluted ego. I note and appreciate written cautions against befriending demons
>>>>>---->>History is written by the victors and so are the definitions of the Archetypes.

Darkcandle wrote: meaning I use no circle,........

>>>>>---->>I have my altar..and I try to create an appropriate atmosphere but no circle as such...
..no "safety" zone..no limits or boundaries or barriers................


Darkcandle wrote: I never
 banish.......

>>>>>---->>I do...but only on occassion. I am not dogmatic about banishing...but from time
 to time i like to do a banishing if for no other reason than i believe one must be
 proficient with the theory and practical applications of the basics...nothing worse
 than a rusty magician.....



Darkcandle wrote:  I do not call upon any godform or higher power before, during, or after communicating
 with the demon]. I am not a practicing Satanist nor do I belong to any Satanic group or
 order,

>>>>>---->>GUILTY....I am guilty!.....I am a recovering Satanist. The religiocity of
 Satanism however died for me a long time ago..but fortunately...the majik still remains.


Darkcandle wrote: that includes the recent web-popular "demonolatry" bunch.

>>>>>---->>the Shadow Guild was established in 1962/3...the Dukante Hiearchy
 was first published in 1963..Its informal and somewhat relaxed yet respectful
 ritual approach to Demonic communication was the end product
 of a generational path of Demon Worship that spanned decades...perhaps centuries (?)...
Their use of sigils was  (at my discovery) nothing short of  Martin Luther's 95
 Theses nailed on the Schlosskirche Door. I am certain that there are common threads
 that run through each approach to Demonic contact but I have found the respecrful
'invitation' to work better for me than the CM Evocations...I like to take what works and
 disregaurd the rest..for example...I use the Goetic sigils only (with out the circles)..
..I have completely disregaurded the burdensome CM aspect of Solomon..its a rather cannibalistic
 approach I suppose..but it slices away the fat so to speak and allows me
 to refine my own "approach" .   


Darkcandle wrote:. My devotion towards this particular demon from the Goetia has
 been on-going for several years.

>>>>>---->>Darkcandle...I am anxious to hear whatever you feel comfortable sharing.
 I think what you're doing is important and groundbreaking.....this type of inter-personal
 relationships with 'Demons" is,I believe the future of Majick.........From Dees to Crowley to
 Dukante to the loose,independent,free lance sorcerer..we are evolving..................and I'm sure this evolution is an exciting part of your life.............................
Title: Re: Demon Worship
Post by: majikasm on January 20, 2008, 07:27:32 PM
Darkcandle...your last post was just so MASSIVE in scope and info that i just can't reply to it adequately..right now........................I do plan on more comments though...this is an exciting thread!
Title: Re: Demon Worship
Post by: CloakedxAdept on January 20, 2008, 10:21:46 PM
Why worship something as low as a demon when you can send your prayers straight to the top?
Title: Re: Demon Worship
Post by: Watchtower on January 21, 2008, 12:20:35 AM
Quote
Why worship something as low as a demon when you can send your prayers straight to the top?

I have no stance on demon worship (or any worship, for that matter), but I will say that not everyone agrees on who is at the top, or whether there is even anyone at the top at all.  More importantly, however, is that for some people, being "at the top" is not even the reason for worship or devotion anyway, so your question isn't really applicable to every point of view.
Title: Re: Demon Worship
Post by: majikasm on January 21, 2008, 05:42:29 AM
I'm not sure if Darkcandle even used the word "worship"...I did for sure...but it might not be in the proper context for this thread.............also............>>>>>---->>History is written by the victors and so are the placements of the 'tops' and the 'bottoms'.....had history worked itself out differently we might possibly be discussing the Baals now...................
 
Title: Re: Demon Worship
Post by: Steve on January 21, 2008, 06:10:11 PM
Lexie:
"Why should you trait a demon with respect and love, if it doesn't even KNOW respect and love? A demon should be traited with curses and pain, because that is the only thing that a demon knows and because it excists out of pain and curses."
Well, let's rewrite the scenario and the answer should become blindingly obvious:
"Why should you trait a human with respect and love, if it doesn't even KNOW respect and love? A human should be traited with curses and pain, because that is the only thing that a human knows and because it excists out of pain and curses."
Is this valid? If so, then I have no further comments. If not, why do you prejudice demons without evidence of such extreme statements as "all they know" but give humans the benefit of the doubt?


darkcandle: I know that this was a reply to someone else, but in the spirit of tolerance of demons I find it odd that you are so intolerant of the god of the bible.
"The god of the Bible demanded blood sacrifices in the Old Testament, killed many humans, flooded the Earth, threw humans into chaos when they became too unified (tower of Babel), punished one human harshly for offering plants instead of animals, relied on a scapegoat (Satan) to punish humans (like Job) with terrible fury instead of doing the job himself, and so on."
The first one it true, YHWH did demand animal sacrifices. The humans killed generally deserved it, and it was supposedly with justice that YHWH acted rather than pure maliciousness. Flooding the earth was again a punishment for evil. Scattering the humans is true of itself. Where did God punish the human for offering plant sacrifices? If you're thinking of Cain and Abel then you are wrong because YHWH simply enjoyed the animal sacrifice "more" than the plant sacrifice, and it was the a human who hurt the other human. YHWH did not rely upon Satan to "punish" Job; if you read the story you'll learn that YHWH actually places Job's life into Satan's hand as a bet of sorts, the moral ramifications of which are different than the spin you put on it though none-the-less questionable.

You look at the actions, ignore the reasons given, and then implant whatever reason you want to in order to justify the description you attribute to the actions.

"If one believes some or all of the demons from the Goetia are fallen angels, are they not justified in their falling away from such a creature?"
Same thing. The answer to whether the angels were justified in falling away depends on their reasons rather than the action itself.

"Read in the Old Testament how wrathful this god was, his very appearance by description could easily be said to have been demonic, creating terror."
Or his visage was so powerful that the humans who recognized how sinful they were in God's eyes cowered because they understood they could be punished at any time. The righteous did not need to fear YHWH (though most still did, as Job wisely understood it "even if I am faultless, YHWH can find fault with me") as YHWH's actions proved in regards to the righteous. The fear being instilled was an internal fear of justice for sins carried out.

"In the New Testament everything under the sun was blamed on Satan and demons."
Perhaps you would find Jesus' inclination to allow the demon's request a little less ironic if you realized that most things in the NT were not blamed on Satan and demons. Most evil intentions and actions of men were placed squarely on the shoulders of men; we do our own evil and are subject to punishment for it.

"When you look at it this way, how can the fallen angels be the ones in the wrong here?"
Well, when you look at it the way the bible portrays it instead of the way you portray it, then the answer is obvious. On the other hand, not all demons are fallen angels so whatever you're contacting does not necessarily have to have anything to do with the bible.


Cloaked:
"Why worship something as low as a demon when you can send your prayers straight to the top?"
Why ask your boss for a payraise when you can go straight to the company owner(s)? Chain of command. That's not to say that demons, angels, fallen angels, or whatever else are necessarily our direct bosses, but ask the question again like this: Why ask a plumber to fix your broken pipes when you can just ask a librarian? Different people/forces have different jobs/specialties.

~Steve
Title: Re: Demon Worship
Post by: Lexie on January 22, 2008, 03:00:41 AM
Steve,

As it looks like you simply compare a demon with a human, I see much difference.

In my opinion, a human is reincarnated with a personality (ego) to experience its virtues and expressions thereof. So, if a person is really "stupid" and treats other people without respect and love, it is for the reason that they have to experience this kind of expressions and at last, should learn from this. To be more direct; In my own life I have made many mistakes, but I'm happy I've made them because I've learned from it and it made me more wise.

Ofcourse you can point a person on his mistakes and blame him for it, but you should always remember in your backhead that the person - on the contrary - can't help that he made mistakes and he had been given his personality so he should learn from it.

A demon, however, is totally different from nature than we are. They aren't simply reincarnated because they have to learn. Their nature and their home are the infernal regions were chaos and disharmony reigns. This means that a demon have developed his ego on a deep spiritual/introvert way and this is its existence.

Remember, we humans have the instinct and intuition to develop from disharmony to harmony, from imperfection to perfection and from stupid to wise. We experience this lower physical existence here on Earth, so we experience on what fundaments (laws) the universe is based on, and with this experience and understanding we develop ourselves on a intuitional way to come closer to God.

In your deepest self you already bear the key - which is your unique soul - that will open the door to the harmony, perfection and love of God, but first you have to understand what the key is, why you have it and how you have to use it. At last, you understand what is behind the door and why that is our home. Through disharmonious and chaotic experience we are able to use the key.

So this is what I'll try to tell you, a demon is a totally different form of existence than we are. It has chosen to be in existence with the infernal regions and its whole behaviour is based on disharmony and chaos. We humans also may look like disharmonious and chaotic forms of beings, but we have the ability to understand love and respect. We are able to think outside the box. Demon's dont.

Now you may think, a demon also experiences disharmony and chaos, so it is able to overcome this through experience. In my opinion a demon is still not able to overcome this, because it has no key (soul) to do this. A demon is, just like (as example) a stone or plant, a form/level of existence, but isn't able to become totally aware of itself and with this isn't able to overcome itself.

That's why curses and pain are the key to "tame" the demon and to build a safe shield for yourself. If you don't do this and you trait the demon with respect and love, then there is no shield at all and the demon is free to go with whatever its intention is. This intention will probably be the one to project (share) its existence (disharmony and chaos) on you. It's a psychological/spiritual thing, because if a person becomes really agressive and hatred, it easily is able to harm others, because the person projects his own pain/curse on others. That's the beast/ego in us, but we are able to control and overcome this. 

So to clarify your statement; humans are able to know/understand respect and love, because our deep existence (our soul) gives us the ability to do this. Demons don't have this ability, and that's why it may be better for yourself to not invoke and worship demons.






Title: Re: Demon Worship
Post by: Steve on January 22, 2008, 04:40:01 PM
"A demon, however, is totally different from nature than we are."
Says who? Beyond your prejudices, that is. Remember that it was less than a hundred years ago when white men thought black men were barely any better than animals...

~Steve
Title: Re: Demon Worship
Post by: Lexie on January 23, 2008, 02:14:17 AM
Who says not? You simply quote a few words, while I already gave the answer in the rest of my post.

Maybe you think too deep, the answer remains simple, however; a demon is an entity from another "dimension". We humans are beings from Earth. Still see no difference?

Quote
Remember that it was less than a hundred years ago when white men thought black men were barely any better than animals...

Today there are still people who think like that. In the past maybe more people, but not the whole population.
Title: Re: Demon Worship
Post by: Steve on January 23, 2008, 05:38:02 PM
I see no proof in the rest of your post. Just your own beliefs and viewpoints.

Of course, I'm not saying that demons are all "hugs and puppies", but I do not agree with the idea that they are merely "intelligent" forces which cannot change who they are and what they do.

~Steve
Title: Re: Demon Worship
Post by: Lexie on January 24, 2008, 02:46:44 AM
So what do you expect from me? Use the viewpoints and beliefs of other people or some lecture? This is a discussion topic where people start discussions about views and beliefs. You use views from the Bible, I use my own views.

Quote
but I do not agree with the idea that they are merely "intelligent" forces which cannot change who they are and what they do.

If that is your opinion, it is fine by me.  :)
Title: Re: Demon Worship
Post by: musca on March 20, 2009, 09:32:49 PM
I find it interesting about what was being said about
You choosing the demon or it choosing you".
I found this thread doing a Google search, and have found it most informative, especially since a demon chose to contact ME!
Title: Re: Demon Worship
Post by: Cheezee on March 21, 2009, 02:25:32 AM
Tell yer story please :)
Title: Re: Demon Worship
Post by: Blue Dragon on March 22, 2009, 04:57:15 AM
Just a little food for thought (or to throw a potenetial wrench into the works)

Doesn't the definition of demon differ from different cultures/mythology?

I'm sure i've seen the definition of demon to mean spirits in general. :confused:

Hasn't demon also been spelled as daemon?

Title: Re: Demon Worship
Post by: Cheezee on March 22, 2009, 06:13:44 AM
Yes and yes. The greek "daemon" just meant an intelligent being (of power possibly).
Title: Re: Demon Worship
Post by: musca on March 24, 2009, 03:55:04 PM
Well....About a month ago, I was working on a story about a young woman who tries to evoke a Lamia-Naga entity. I usually could only draw maybe a page a day (Anime/manga style), but I found myself cranking out maybe four to six pages a day. It seemed to take on a life of its own, and after I had drawn so much, I went online to check some of the details I had imagined, and to my suprise, I got them right (Candles, hand signs, etc.)
On Suday, February 22nd, I was watching some FLVs for "Insperation" (Sailor Moon Episode #40, titled "The Last Resort" in English, featuring a Lamia "Youma of the Day" that I based miy artwork on) and clips from "Cult of the White Worm". Long story short, there was a smell that I thought was something cooking, followed by a female voice I more felt than heard that said "I'm here"
Okay......
As the day went on, I started to feel her presence more, and I would get kind of an adrenilin-rush feeling in my arms and legs, and felt electric in the rest of my body.
The next morning, I went out to start my car, got my keys out, started it, and headed back to the house. I put my hand into my pocket and found....my wife's car keys!
I don't drive her car!
There were other things being NOTICABLY moved around the house, and I felt her twice at work.
The following Tuesday I thought I would be sociable and offered her some of my energy, kind of letting her know how I "taste" I guess. I did'nt feel any different after that. Thursday morning (The day I think I accidentally released her) I was driving into work and asked her if I could sample her energy (Chakra?). I felt nothing other that the usual electric surges that I had been experiencing since Sunday.
Fifteen minutes later I get into work, get into the elevator and head upstaris when all of a sudden....
Anybody remember the old black and white "Popeye" cartoons from TV? He eats his spinach and...
THAT is what it felt like for me! My heart was racing,my mind working twice as fast as it normanlly would (I'm a fairly quick wit, but I was NOTICABLY different that day! Everyone was commenting on it!) I was in the BEST mood I had been in for almost EVER, and EVERYTHING was hilariously funny! I think I accidentally released her by the way I was laughing that night at home...I only heard her say something to me once, a husky, breathless whisper and her voice was "in the middle of my head", as it were, instead of being heard by my ears.
I have been trying REAL hard to get her to return, but I was told elsewhere that she may have only been interested in what I was doing (Drawing, research, etc.) more than me...I don't know, but I found her to be playful, kind and generous with her power, and I miss her so.
If I can think of more, or she comes back, I'll let you know!
Musca.
EDITED TO ADD:
The "power zap" I got from her lasted about 13 hours, but the "hangover" lasted for about five days!
After about the third day I thought I was going to have a heart attack, I felt so bad. Needless to say, I'm a true believer in the existance of demons now, and I don't think that all are that malevolent....We'll see what happens later.
Title: Re: Demon Worship
Post by: musca on April 04, 2009, 10:25:18 PM
Doing more studying, I found a clue to her name (In hindsight, it seems that I've been tripping all over the clues she's been leaving for me.....I'm pretty sure I know her name now, but I won't reveal it at this time.) and I willl be trying to formally contact her during the next full moon (Luckily the VOC is the day before, and the moon will enter Scorpio about the same time I'm going to do this.
I'll try to report back what happens.
Title: Re: Demon Worship
Post by: Yugo on April 04, 2009, 10:50:35 PM
I dunno why am i doing this because i usually ignore threads like this.But whats the use of Demon Worship anyways.And is it the same as worshiping the Devil?
Title: Re: Demon Worship
Post by: Dea on April 06, 2009, 03:44:54 PM
Demon worship has the same point and purpose as any other worship. Benefits from a certain entity(s) given through prayer, tribute and devotion. There is no real difference from demon worship and god worship, as far as i've seen.
Title: Re: Demon Worship
Post by: Yugo on April 07, 2009, 01:46:54 AM
Well,i dun wanna go worshiping Demons because the Bible says "Worship The Lord your God and Serve only Him"
Title: Re: Demon Worship
Post by: Dea on April 07, 2009, 08:20:30 AM
Some say Lucifer is the only god. Others say you are the only god. No one is forcing you to worship demons, or worship at all, it's only your choice. Just be sure you know just who or what you're worshipping, and why you are.
Title: Re: Demon Worship
Post by: Yugo on April 07, 2009, 11:49:14 PM
Thx for the info.
Title: Re: Demon Worship
Post by: beleth on June 26, 2009, 04:23:15 PM
http://www.angelfire.com/empire/serpentis666/DEMONOLATRY.html

this site seems to say that our friend is accurate!! check it out!!
Title: Re: Demon Worship
Post by: Dea on June 27, 2009, 11:50:05 AM
That site is a cesspool of neo-nazi enki/satanism mixed with things that would make scientology jealous. Trust me, I know, having been in depth into their practices and beliefs at one point in my life. Follow what it says and you'll end up nothing more than a hate-mongering neo nazi, unfairly hating on Jews, Christians and Muslims while practicing a very much conflicting spiritual practice. They take things from other systems and mostly bastardize it to fit their form of satanism.

For example, they link to the IIH, PME and KTTK. They also say Bardon was part of the lodge which he fights in Frabato, and is really revealing enemy thoughtforms in the PME.
Title: Re: Demon Worship
Post by: Elisabeth on July 14, 2009, 07:50:05 PM
"Yet, notwithstanding, we should never employ harsh means, in order to have that which we can obtain by gentleness and courtesy." - The Sacred Magic of Abramelin the Mage

"Let me here once again insist on the absolute necessity in occult working of being courteous, even to the evil spirits; for the operator who is insolent and overbearing will speedily lay himself open to obsession by a spirit of like nature, the which will bring about his ultimate downfall." - S.L.M. Mathers
Title: Re: Demon Worship
Post by: loveless on July 15, 2009, 01:24:59 PM
I'm putting my personal experience here since the thread seems to be going in that general direction.

There are two categories of spirits that call themselves (and act as) demons, those that were "incarnated" (not necessarily in flesh though) and those that were simply not. One of the most powerful and wise entities I know belong to the first one, a truly radiant and powerful spirit that chose to show itself as a demon, with a touch of lust btw.

Of the second category I met a really powerful one that wouldn't be categorised as a human by any degree, it's image was like a vortex of energy and information and a whole system (instead of a single defined entity) like an universe, at the same time ("our name is Legion" comes to mind). With some names he is known for some things that could be called atrocities, he is not evil, but simply not human so he exists beyond our simple morals. And if anything these are closer to their mythological antagonists, angels, with the scary amorality and all.

Demons usually end up looking evil to a "normal person" because he/she/it simply gives what the person asks for, no high lesson in morals and no escaping the price either, that plus the fact that we attract spirits that reflect what we are, even what we try to hide from ourselves, help them keep the malevolent image, and of course, tradition, that helps too. (A high up demon fricking made a whole discourse to me about LOVE, the pure kind, in a good way! =P). There are so many kinds of spirits that take the label of demon, to make a generalisation about them is ridiculous, they do have somethings in common of course, like usually having something for our vices or for blood, and the not caring... But not all are outright evil. Spirits are much more dynamic than that.

If you are expecting or wants demons to be "demonic" that is what you are going to get, it's what you called for after all. I follow the respect route, that is how I was raised and it served me well until now.

p.s. This remembers me of a Promethea number where she found Asmodeus, nice comic that one.
Title: Re: Demon Worship
Post by: clove99 on February 16, 2011, 08:53:20 PM
I have read interesting points of view in this thread and without emphatically opposing anyone, I tend to appreciate Steve's approach as well as darkcandle, the original poster.

I would prefer to interact with a demon much the way I would interact with anyone in a business transaction, meaning courteously, but keeping a healthy distance.  After all, business is business.  My goal is to make sure that both sides of the agreement are honored, which is why I feel it is crucial to be specific about your request and your offer, and make sure to keep your end of the bargain...immediately.  By immediately, I mean instantly without relaxing and enjoying your rewards and putting off your payment.

This happened to me once.  I was much less practical and wise than I am now, and I asked Satan himself to aid me in achieving a goal.  The results were fantastic, and improbable without this type of spiritual intervention.  I tried getting results with the lighter, brighter side of magick, but got nowhere as if benevolent forces were telling me to not even bother with what I wanted.  So, I turned to the darker side of things and got exceptional results, BUT, they were so short lived. I had been having a nice dinner in a nice restaurant with a nice person.  This person was being uncharacteristically kind and warm, like he wasn't himself.   I literally got up from a dinner table to powder my nose, and while in the ladies' room, I verbalized, "I'm so happy," as joy exuded from my being.  I returned to the table and the nice guy disappeared.  The smile had left his face, the twinkle no longer in his eye, and he was agitated and short and ready to get the hell out of there.  What happened?  I didn't know.  He drove me home, and to my surprise actually got me within walking distance of my home rather than following his disgustful urges to just throw me out of the car and let me find my own way home.  I was dumbfounded.  How could the results be so temporary?

An orchestrator of magick explained that by verbalizing the happiness part, it was an acknowledgement that I got what I wanted, what I had asked for, and that the spiritual entity that helped me to achieve this wanted payment in the moment.  I don't recall offering anything other than general allegiance to Satan, but never put much thought into how I would do that, so without taking any immediate action of gratitude or honor, I got screwed out of my prize.  It's like making the half court shot at an NBA game to win the car, everyone cheers and congratulates you and you're handed the keys, and at the last moment they take the keys back and tell you that there's a technical vioilation that invalidates your winnings.  It sucks, let me tell you.

Anyway, I am older and wiser now and hopefully won't allow my guard down and be vulnerable.  At least I will do what it takes to be prepared should I decide to work with Satan or his demons again, and part of that means being clear on what it is that I want and what I will pay.  The other part is as Steve indicated, being respectful but formal and personal.  Business is business.
Title: Re: Demon Worship
Post by: clove99 on February 16, 2011, 09:43:08 PM
Typo: (Last sentence) should read "formal and NOT personal"
Title: Re: Demon Worship
Post by: Emerald Mushroom on February 16, 2011, 11:39:20 PM
heres a thought, what if demons reallly arnt as bad as we make them out to be, maybe treating them with a little bit of respect would help foster a relationship not that im saying trust the slimy bastard with your life or anything, but if you have something it needs and it has something you need, then an understanding can be reached. the only problem, what does a demon need?
Title: Re: Demon Worship
Post by: Mindlessinvalid on February 17, 2011, 08:27:10 AM
If it's really a demon, it's born of negative impulses that drive humans down on the vibrational and willpower spectrum.

A spirit's job (as prophecy describes it) is to increase its own domain. So when you meet a demon, it's only thoughts are to increase its own domain. This may be done by sucking up to you, or it may be done by enslaving the weak willed.

I went through many different types and shades of elemental imbalance because I was obsessive over aspects of myself. I've had negative attachments, airy imbalances, watery imbalances, firey imbalances (never an earth imbalance), I've been all over the spectrum in almost every conceivable way. Because of this, I feel my magical ability has plateaued until I can get myself back into balance (which when you've been imbalanced for so long is difficult.)

I never once considered making a pact with a demon because I know intellectually that the forces of impulse are strong. If I weren't going through some rough patches with changing meds (for bipolar and autism) I'd be doing some major integration practices to get back on my feet.

I've dug a pit with my own demons (sloth, lust, gluttony, wrath) and am struggling to release myself from their clutches. I managed to free myself at least partially from sloth and gluttony (I still eat inordinate amounts of junk for the sheer experience occasionally) but I'm bound tightly by lust and tormented by wrath every day of my life.

I guess that people who aren't actively evaluating themselves don't understand that demonic influences are both internal and external. Powerful demons govern the impulses and weaker demons ARE the impulses.

Being chained by these impulses is severely limiting magickally because any self respecting spirit would refuse to work for a magician weak enough to be enslaved by ANYTHING.

That's it, I'm going to set up and perform a psycho-magical working to help me out of this rut. I felt good when I was doing those invocations of the solar hexagram every day.

Long story short:

Demons = Impulses = Bad = Stay away = Norly don't dew eet.
Title: Re: Demon Worship
Post by: Mindlessinvalid on February 17, 2011, 09:40:58 AM
demons can be more complex than that. Demons, like anything else, are on a spectrum that could very well range from larvae (impulse) to lovecraftian horror (shitfuckdamn it's eating my soul).

Simply dismissing them as "merely" anything is an ignorant point of view.

The thing is that demons are born as psychological constructs and as they gain power from feeding off of you and others, they grow and specialize until they are their own entity. Older demons with more energy are more distinct, more powerful, more dangerous.

Demons have their spheres of influence like any other spirit, and just like any other spirit they seek to expand those spheres.

Again, people who don't actively evaluate themselves can't understand stuff like this because they won't notice the subtle changes that they go through day to day.

Title: Re: Demon Worship
Post by: clove99 on February 17, 2011, 11:19:31 AM
So here is a question for anyone more experienced than I.

Once you have summoned a chosen demon for a particular purpose, given basic offerings and incentives, and made your request, how do you know if the demon has accepted your proposal, other than waiting for results to occur?

For those who are less psychic like myself, it can be difficult to know how long to wait for results or even know if the demon has agreed to assist your request.  So, other than waiting around, especially when something crucial needs to happen by a deadline, how can one discern or verify if the demon is in agreement?

It doesn't make sense to wait until your deadline (like a court date, for instance), to figure out if the demon agreed to help or not.  By that time, it will be too late to attempt to seek assistance from another entity or with another method.
Title: Re: Demon Worship
Post by: Mindlessinvalid on February 17, 2011, 11:55:34 AM
The rule of thumb is that if you can't verify it, don't do it.
Title: Re: Demon Worship
Post by: clove99 on February 17, 2011, 12:26:03 PM
Thanks for the reply, but could you elaborate.

Here's my situation.

I invoked Dantalian for aid in changing the mind of an attorney who decided not to take my case though this attorney is the only one who considered taking my case on a contingency basis.  It is in an area of law that is extremely specialized, and in my nearly 2 year search, there aren't any other attorneys who handles cases like this on a contingency basis.  Even if I came into a good amount of money that could fund my case, I wouldn't be confident in retaining an attorney.  So, I asked to have this attorney's changed and accept my case, enter into legal contract to fund and represent my case, and file with the court before the statute of limitations is up which is March 9, 2011.

Do I wait until March 9 to see if Dantialian accepted my proposal, or do I risk offending Dantalian by invoking yet another demon to undertake this task?

It's a dilemma.
Title: Re: Demon Worship
Post by: clove99 on February 17, 2011, 12:28:45 PM
Seems like there should be a way to get a definitive sign, other than waiting until the deadline,  if Dantalian has agreed to help or not.
Title: Re: Demon Worship
Post by: Mindlessinvalid on February 17, 2011, 12:41:47 PM
well, let's put it this way, unless you possess the three faculties of truth (clairvoyance, clairaudience, clairsentience) then there is no empirical way to know.

Besides that, if you don't have the spiritual authority to back up your demands, then you'll run into issues with getting what you want the way you want it.

IF you were successful in summoning him, then dantalion may even decide you're not worth it because you lack spiritual authority and may even work against your wishes.

A successful summoning is always fairly obvious, even if you can't see or hear the demon per se.
Title: Re: Demon Worship
Post by: clove99 on February 17, 2011, 12:54:18 PM
Obvious?  How?  I didn't see or hear the demon.  But I don't see how to determine if it was a successful invocation, other than waiting for results.

Spiritual authority?  Do you have such authority?  Where does one receive authority?

I realize you were throwing out a hypothetical, but it is worth examining this to determine my odds of success.
Title: Re: Demon Worship
Post by: Mindlessinvalid on February 17, 2011, 01:05:59 PM
spiritual authority is earned through strengthening the will and raising the spirit.

If you don't have that authority then spirits don't listen, magical operations fail, and the operations that do succeed do so weakly, or in unintended ways.

The best way to describe spiritual authority is that everyone has it in differing quantities.

For example, sylphs listen to me, but the elemental angels of air do not.

If you were to actually summon a demon, there would be some very powerful phenomena that not even a someone who's psychically retarded would be able to dismiss.

Uncontrollable fear, strange sounds, dizziness, nausea, etc.

Even experienced mages have difficulty summoning spirits of any kind if the environment is not suitable for said spirit to manifest.

The energetic, physical, and mental components of the room all have an effect on the spirit's manifestation, and because it's the power of the magician that both compels the spirit AND allows it to manifest, without spiritual authority or the proper preparations, acts of summoning are next to impossible.
Title: Re: Demon Worship
Post by: Merkat on February 17, 2011, 02:50:56 PM
Greetings to all of you:

I very seldom post here but thought I wanted to make one little point concerning demons.  First of all, for the life of me, I cannot imagine myself summoning up a demon and if I did, I would be very polite since I do not like the idea one little bit of bulllyng ANY spirit.  Respect and courtesy would be the key words here.  To do otherwise just might wind up with the person who did the summoning being hoisted on their own petard.

My credo is...leave me alone and I'll leave you alone.

My very best wishes to all. :cool: :) :P
Merkat.
Title: Re: Demon Worship
Post by: clove99 on February 17, 2011, 02:52:29 PM
I got the hallucinations and fear and feelings of presences when I first attempted demon invocation 15 years ago.  It was then that I decided I wasn't ready for it and proceeded to study and apply other forms of magick.  Now, I feel I am ready with a better foundation, but your explanation says that invocation is difficult.

The Joy of Satan site is very encouraging as to meditating and practicing invocation.  Then it seems logical that if the operator doesn't receive the verifiable signs that invocation was successful, it should just be attempted repeatedly.  There must be some way to convince a demon to come to your aid.

My set up was fairly sound and complete involving a good deal of preparation, including obtaining the proper incense and color candle for Dantalian.  I also requested permission from Satan with an initial black candle, as is advised on the Joy of Satan site.

Your response just goes to show that while it is preferable to achieve a state of self-sufficiency in sorcery, everyone must start somewhere and probably needs some hands on help in summoning.

Where do I even begin to seek out an experienced demon worshipper in my local area who gets simple, great joy out of bringing people to this path through teaching?
Title: Re: Demon Worship
Post by: Wren on February 17, 2011, 03:12:54 PM
You'll find that most people here get all  :teethy: when JoS is brought up. In all  :heart:, I suggest you stay away from that mix. If you want to do the whole pact thing, you're better off reading up about the Grimorium Verum, and then reading a good version of the text itself. It's a much more traditional way to sell your soul to the devil.  :biggrin: (OK, I went a bit overboard with the smilies, but yeah. I stand by them because they are adorable.)
Title: Re: Demon Worship
Post by: Dea on February 17, 2011, 03:15:28 PM
My biggest question is What's the point of worshiping a demon. I mean what is the point?

Easy material gains.
Title: Re: Demon Worship
Post by: Mindlessinvalid on February 17, 2011, 03:58:03 PM
Greetings to all of you:

I very seldom post here but thought I wanted to make one little point concerning demons.  First of all, for the life of me, I cannot imagine myself summoning up a demon and if I did, I would be very polite since I do not like the idea one little bit of bulllyng ANY spirit.  Respect and courtesy would be the key words here.  To do otherwise just might wind up with the person who did the summoning being hoisted on their own petard.

My credo is...leave me alone and I'll leave you alone.

My very best wishes to all. :cool: :) :P
Merkat.

The point of bullying demons is that by bullying them you close off any connection you may make with them. This makes it more difficult for them to control you. Demons are less dangerous than animals in the sense that a demon can't harm you in the same ways. Demons are more dangerous than animals in that they can and will enslave you given the chance.

Title: Re: Demon Worship
Post by: clove99 on February 17, 2011, 04:37:00 PM
So does anybody have any advice on how to locate a local sorcerer?  It's just not something you can google.
Title: Re: Demon Worship
Post by: clove99 on February 17, 2011, 04:43:23 PM
Wren, the Grimoire you referred to does not read well.  I have only gotten past the introduction and it already seems confusing.  Is there a version that is in simple English, rather than such formidable and flowery language that, in of itself, needs deciphering?
Title: Re: Demon Worship
Post by: clove99 on February 17, 2011, 04:49:32 PM
Well as I read this Grimoire, I am convinced that such details won't make a difference, especially when considering the original post of this thread by darkcandle who nearly improvised his approach but kept it simple.
Title: Re: Demon Worship
Post by: clove99 on February 17, 2011, 04:57:25 PM
BTW, I heard some time ago that the Devil does not like making pacts with women because he finds them even more deceiving than himself. Hahahaha.  The reference was made to that once the Devil had performed his service and returned to collect his debt from the woman, she would complain and insist that she didn't EXACTLY what she had bargained for (since women have a tendency to be very explicit in their demands), and therefore claimed that she did not have to pay her debt, so the Devil kept getting screwed over by stubbon, picky women.  Hahahahaha.

This account was reported a few years back by a Shaman from Mexico who swore by his work with the Devil.

I wonder if a demon would regard women the same way.
Title: Re: Demon Worship
Post by: clove99 on February 17, 2011, 05:38:18 PM
I also just find it so odd that there is such a wide range of opinion on summoning demons, like the difficulty in invoking that Mindlessinvalid speaks of to the opinions of some that all you have to do is state the name of the demon outloud, and whether you intend to or not, it will be summoned, even if the person speaking the name aloud doesn't even believe in demons.

How can this be?  How can it be possible that for someone who doesn't even believe in demons, and obviously not having spiritual authority, can speak the name aloud and inadvertently summon it to their presence, and then someone who really wants to invoke a demon, chant the name aloud and have such difficulty?

This doesn't make much sense.
Title: Re: Demon Worship
Post by: Wren on February 17, 2011, 05:50:09 PM
When I suggested reading the commentaries first, I meant it.  :P Those suckers are dense, and quite frankly, if you don't get an outside opinion, either from Spirit or from other magicians, you aren't going to understand a lot (or maybe any) of what's going on. I certainly don't, at least. I mention the GV as an alternative to JoS because of a sticking point of mine. JoS makes some weird claims of Satan "really" being Enki (or some other old god). If you want to worship the old gods, just bite the bullet and become a neo-pagan. If you want demonolatry, bite the bullet and work with real demons. The wishy-washy in between "I'm so dark, but I'm really just a respectable person. Fear me, but not really." thing gets on my nerves. The method candle-dude put out seems fine enough. Once again though, the question becomes, "Why?"

To find a sorcerer, make it known that you are looking to find a sorcerer. Hang out in Botanicas if you can find any, since they are cheaper than New Age stores (generally), and sorcerers are all about the fiscal sense thing. Do a spell or two to direct you to a sorcerer.

I doubt gender has a thing to do with bargaining. We have a story where I'm from. When the sun is shining and the rain pours down, the devil is beating his wife. The Devil's Pimp Hand is Always Strong. Christ loves you, but the Devil wants to too (carnally).

The little specifics in a grimoire make all of the difference really. If they didn't, we'd just see a single grim that said, "here's the virtue of the spirit, its sigil and name, get crack'n."
Title: Re: Demon Worship
Post by: Wren on February 17, 2011, 06:00:19 PM
I also just find it so odd that there is such a wide range of opinion on summoning demons, like the difficulty in invoking that Mindlessinvalid speaks of to the opinions of some that all you have to do is state the name of the demon outloud, and whether you intend to or not, it will be summoned, even if the person speaking the name aloud doesn't even believe in demons.

How can this be?  How can it be possible that for someone who doesn't even believe in demons, and obviously not having spiritual authority, can speak the name aloud and inadvertently summon it to their presence, and then someone who really wants to invoke a demon, chant the name aloud and have such difficulty?

This doesn't make much sense.

People lie (I try not to lie). People guess (me, though I base my guesses on past experience). People believe falsehoods (me, though not intentionally, and I don't know which they are). Telling who is who is always difficult, especially since you too are a People.

Metaphysical reality is uber-dependent on the influence of the mind. It's like watching sub-atomic particles, it just screws everything up and we have to figure out how to do a double-take so that the particle doesn't realize we've observed it to get data. 'Makes my neck hurt just thinking about it.
Title: Re: Demon Worship
Post by: clove99 on February 18, 2011, 01:06:25 AM
Wren, you said "uber-dependent on the influence of the mind".  Then following that logic, it should be easy for someone, anyone who is adept at invocation to help others even from distant locations.  It shouldn't be necessary for me to seek guidance from a local mage.  The only difficulty would be asking someone with sufficient experience to aid me, possibly through divination, and instruct me on what to do and how to do in order to achieve successful invocation.

Any takers?  After all, it would be experiemental and interesting to see what results may come.
Title: Re: Demon Worship
Post by: Wren on February 18, 2011, 08:10:54 AM
I don't see how that follows logically. Would you mind explaining for me? (I'm not being sarcastic) The point I want to make is that to progress in metaphysics, the metaphysician must learn to silence the mind. Pretty simple to say, but much harder to do.
Title: Re: Demon Worship
Post by: clove99 on February 18, 2011, 09:56:50 AM
Hi, Wren.  What I meant regarding your suggestion that the influence of the mind is what fuels invocation and creates successful results, is that if one was to seek guidance in invocation from a more experienced sorcerer/mage, then physical distance shouldn't be an issue, since the influence of their mind would be all that is needed.

I was taking what you had said and applied it to my own intent to get some support with my own current intentions.

But, while I am here.  Do you have an opinion on how often invocation should be attempted for any specific purpose?  I'm still not comfortable just waiting to see if the demon I invoked agreed to my petition and will come through, especially since time is of the essence (I have a court date coming up).  Are there any cautions to repeating invocational requests until I actually get the results I am seeking?
Title: Re: Demon Worship
Post by: Wren on February 18, 2011, 10:09:17 AM
Ah, I see. A good deal of magicians disagree with that proposition, holding that there is some objective nature to the act of (pseudo-evocation). I am one of them. I wasn't suggesting that the mind was the source of the power of the (pseudo-evocation), but the soul, and that the mind obscures the actions of the soul and so distorts our perceptions and limits our ability to act. Never-the-less, the limitations of time and space don't matter as much once you silence the mind, so I would agree with the conclusion if not the reasoning.

I'll pm you a suggestion in a few hours. I'm going out for chores now, and I have another pressing work to attend to before I can get to theorizing over what may or may not help you out. In the mean time, the most important thing I can think to tell you is that a consecrated divinatory device would be invaluable for the magician doing spirit work without the clair-senses. If you get the demon's vibe going strong again, and then ask about whether or not the request will go through before spinning the pendulum or shuffling the cards, you should get an answer.
Title: Re: Demon Worship
Post by: Steve on February 18, 2011, 03:14:12 PM
heres a thought, what if demons reallly arnt as bad as we make them out to be
Then people wouldn't call them demons. They'd call them angels or benevolent spirits or something else ;) (not that such categorization is correct, just pointing out that sometimes categorization comes from peoples' subjective experiences and only partially understand a situation)

~Steve
Title: Re: Demon Worship
Post by: clove99 on February 18, 2011, 03:54:21 PM
If I open up the phone book (not that I have one these days, but I could find one), I'd be able to find any number of churches with plenty of advertisement.  BUT, when looking to be educated in Satanism and in an unbiased way, I might add, I mean look at all the controversy surrounding it, there aren't enough open sources available.  I am referring to actual places to physically go to acquire knowledge.  Doing so by Internet doesn't work for everyone, and doesn't work for me.  It would take forever for me to sift through all of the opinions on how to practice demon worship correctly and responsibily.  So, in the absence of this type of instruction, people (especially younger generations) are experimenting hazardly and subjecting themselves to trauma in their lives.  On top of that, the more experienced Satanists and such practitioners are frustratingly complaining about the inexperienced ones doing things incorrectly.  And, they really shouldn't complain unless they're willing to share their knowledge.  It's not like there's a Sorcerer's university anywhere.
Title: Re: Demon Worship
Post by: clove99 on February 18, 2011, 03:56:27 PM
I have been cautioned over the past 15 years, "Be careful what you ask for, you just might get it!"  I have yet to get these types of results.
Title: Re: Demon Worship
Post by: Dancing_Crow on February 18, 2011, 04:22:41 PM
If I open up the phone book (not that I have one these days, but I could find one), I'd be able to find any number of churches with plenty of advertisement.  BUT, when looking to be educated in Satanism and in an unbiased way, I might add, I mean look at all the controversy surrounding it, there aren't enough open sources available.  I am referring to actual places to physically go to acquire knowledge.  Doing so by Internet doesn't work for everyone, and doesn't work for me.  It would take forever for me to sift through all of the opinions on how to practice demon worship correctly and responsibily.  So, in the absence of this type of instruction, people (especially younger generations) are experimenting hazardly and subjecting themselves to trauma in their lives.  On top of that, the more experienced Satanists and such practitioners are frustratingly complaining about the inexperienced ones doing things incorrectly.  And, they really shouldn't complain unless they're willing to share their knowledge.  It's not like there's a Sorcerer's university anywhere.

When the student is ready, the teacher will appear. Keep working on yourself until you manifest your Teacher.
Title: Re: Demon Worship
Post by: DragynWyllow on February 18, 2011, 09:41:36 PM
Hi there.
 I didn't want to start a whole other thread on this topic so I thought it best to ask here. I've several books on different opinions of the Goetia, as well as what I can only believe as a somewhat complete book on Clavicula Salomonis. When I couldn't see anything I wanted there, I did look into the Lesser Book of Solomon, Goetia. This was about three years ago. So after many months of deciding and researching, I decided that I wanted to summon BUNE, the 26th Spirit and it attracted me that he brought riches and wealth. (And having studied this I had come across a prayer that had to cover all possibilities of harm to prevent them from happening while I acquired wealth.)
 Bune is supposed to be the form of a dragon with three heads, one of a Griffon, a man, and a dog. However, I didn't relish the image of a rather unappealing sight in my basement, so I decided that I try and assimilate the image of a humanoid Bune with my muse, Tenma. Tenma himself is another enigma. He was always a being in my mind with little known history, only that it wasn't pleasant. However, I had a completely comprehensive idea of what Tenma looked like.
 During a ritual for the new year of 2009, I evoked the spirit of Bune to manifest in the form that I was familiar with. (Yes, I created the circle, called down the spirits, Raphael, and had my sigil ready for activation) However, when I finally managed gnosis, Bune appeared as a sparkle of light trickling from the ceiling and dissolved into a black mist. Behind the haze of the candles and incense smoke a vague shape of my muse rose behind the altar (No, I don't like my altar against the wall so I can rotate it depending on ritual). He had milk white skin, but his forearms down to his fingertips were black and his face was black and devoid of most features. There were distinct eyes behind the round spectacles I've always drawn on my muse, but they weren't Tenma's eyes. He was very elegant in speech, but his voice hinted at something very very other-worldly. Behind this image were claws and teeth and, well, things that seemed to be held at bay by Raphael just barely. I wasn't scared and it wasn't the "assurance of protection" but it wasn't any kind of self-confidence. I was more startled that this spirit agreed to manifest in such a way to me. (Mind you, before this I was very bad at visualizing with my eyes open.)

So I would like to know for anyone who may have evoked a spirit/demon through goetia or otherwise, if they've seen the said being with their mind's eye, in their dreams or do they manifest as a symbolic image specific to the dreamer or visualist?
Title: Re: Demon Worship
Post by: Wren on February 18, 2011, 09:59:09 PM
You've done it and I haven't, but:

FIRST CONJURATION

I invoke and conjure thee, O Spirit N., and, fortified with the power of the Supreme Majesty, I strongly command thee by BARALAMENSIS, BALDACHIENSIS, PAUMACHIE, APOLORESEDES and the most potent princes GENIO, LIACHIDE, Ministers of the Tartarean Seat, chief princes of the seat of APOLOGIA in the ninth region; I exorcise and command thee, O Spirit N., by Him Who spake and it was done, by the Most Holy and glorious Names ADONAI, EL, ELOHIM, ELOHE, ZEBAOTH, ELION, ESCHERCE, JAH, TETRAGRAMMATON, SADAI: do thou forthwith appear and shew thyself unto me, here before this circle, in a fair and human shape, without any deformity or horror; do thou come forthwith, from whateverpart of the world, and make rational answers to my questions; come presently, come visibly, come affably, manifest that which I desire, being conjured by the Name of the Eternal, Living and True God, HELIOREM; I conjure thee also by the particular and true Name of thy God to whom thou owest thine obedience; by the name of the King who rules over thee, do thou come without tarrying; come, fulfil my desires; persist unto the end, according, to mine intentions.
Title: Re: Demon Worship
Post by: DragynWyllow on February 18, 2011, 10:06:10 PM
I read that, but I never used it. I'm never one for adhering strictly to some rules or guidelines... But have you ever seen a manifestation?
Title: Re: Demon Worship
Post by: Wren on February 18, 2011, 10:19:30 PM
Well, I think that you might should take a second look at a book of guidelines for summoning spirits, no?  :wink:

EDIT: ^that means that the lesser key is a book of guidelines, and not a rebuke to go study. I hate unintentional ambiguity.

I've only tried summoning spirits freestyle, and the most dramatic result I've gotten (visually speaking) was being thrown into a spontaneous vision.
Title: Re: Demon Worship
Post by: clove99 on February 18, 2011, 10:32:13 PM
Impressive, DragynWyllow.

Someone indulge me, since I don't go into books, is the Lesser Book of Solomon different than the Key of Solomon, or are they one in the same.

I wonder if it's the book and information contained within that makes summoning particularly effective.  And creating a circle can be as simple as declaring an area as sacred to your magickal purpose during ritual?  The other thing that might be significant is evocation versus invocation.  Is that it?  Is it that simple of a difference in summoning a demon spirit, to evoke rather than invoke?  DragynWylllow, did you demand, command and force the demon's presence?
Title: Re: Demon Worship
Post by: clove99 on February 18, 2011, 10:44:19 PM
I hope it's ok to post this, but I found this testimonial in another forum, and am trying to figure out what specifically is key to summoning successfully, so I am drawing parallels between DragynWyllow and Lost Soul whose post is the following:

Lost soul said...
i am a satanist that tryed to summon demons all my life im 45 now. i never got anything either the demons didnt care enougf to come or those methods are out dated. so i tryed something new i used some stuff from key of solomon (circles,triangles,ect) and mixed it with spiritual satanism. the effect was amazing as i commanded the demon to appear before me using the fake gods name there was something appeared in the middle of my circle then every light in my house literally exploded and put my whole neighborhood into darkness. my candles went out and everything turned cold. it was like that until i "banished" what ever it was. can someone explain this to me was it a demon that i summoned i will not reveal which demon it was so will someone tell me was it a demon did i really summon one and if so why did that work and not that crap i was taught about spiritual satanism. thanx
Title: Re: Demon Worship
Post by: clove99 on February 18, 2011, 10:47:09 PM
Wren, that conjuration refers to an eternal and true god, which one?
Title: Re: Demon Worship
Post by: Wren on February 18, 2011, 10:49:17 PM
There's the Greater and Lesser Key of Solomon. The Greater Key is a bunch of magic spells like those found in the Papyri Grecae Magicae. The Lesser Key is divided up into the Ars Paulina, Ars Almadel, Ars Nova, and Ars Goetia. The Ars Goetia is the book that put forth the art that most people mean when they speak of solomonic evocation. I think that's right. The Clavis, or Key is a reference to it being a key to spiritual power and more importantly, knowledge. Circles can be much more complicated than just declaring an area sacred as well. For instance, some use a circle composed of the names of the constraining angels of the angles (in the proper arraignment of course) of the Shemhamphorash that can be used to compel the goetic spirits of the Ars Goetia. Invocation also refers to the practice of bhakti-yoga, which is a very different thing from inviting. Evocation does not necessarily mean the curse of the chains, but the curse of chains is applied to the evocation of demons. You can evoke spirits, intelligences, and some angels as well as demons.

Don't trust people who use "thanx" when describing something they've been trying to do for the better part of 45 years.

Jehovah. Solomon is King Solomon of Biblical fame.
Title: Re: Demon Worship
Post by: clove99 on February 18, 2011, 10:51:07 PM
See now I wouldn't talk like that in order to get a demon to appear.  If I am just reciting a conjuration, it would have to be the utterance of the words that created effect rather than the meaning, because I wouldn't mean most of it.  I do understand it, basically, but I would say it differently, and I'd be most concerned with mispronouncing all of those names and insulting someone.  I don't even know who all of those names are, so I couldn't ethically speak of them in a conjuration.  I prefer things to be much more simple with less dogma, but an abundance of sincerity.  I think that sincerity has to mean something.
Title: Re: Demon Worship
Post by: clove99 on February 18, 2011, 10:52:42 PM
Wren, for someone who doesn't summon demons, you sure do know a lot about this.  I'm not going to be stupid enough to ask how you know, but I am going to ask why you don't summon?  Is it principle or otherwise?
Title: Re: Demon Worship
Post by: clove99 on February 18, 2011, 10:55:23 PM
I wonder what LostSoul refers to when he said he used the "fake gods name".  Hmmm...

Maybe that is the key...speaking the name of the supreme god.  What a dilemma to use god's name in conjunction with something that is supposedly forbidden.
Title: Re: Demon Worship
Post by: clove99 on February 18, 2011, 11:00:13 PM
So, this First Conjuration...if used in conjunction with a circle (you know my circumstances with this), and all of the other elements that I already know, would this conjuration have better chance of summoning so that I may petition a demon?
Title: Re: Demon Worship
Post by: Wren on February 18, 2011, 11:03:54 PM
A) That's the way the book was written. Take it up with dead ole pseudo-solomon?

B) Voces magicae carry weight of their own. Never change the voces magicae if you want to draw on their weight in your ritual. They are the real abrahadabra.

C) Sincerity has its place. If you don't enflame yourself in prayer, the words will die on your lips.

D)Sure you can ethically speak them in an evocation. The pagans of the Papyri Grecae Magicae used Moses as a voce magica in summoning Set. Weirder things have been done.

E)If we do take lost soul at his word, incorporating the "names of the dead god" and all the "Furniture" certainly got him some results, no?

I don't trust demons and I'm a newb at doing stuff. I like to know what I'm getting into before plunging into application.

Yes, but a triangle of art would help much, much more.
Title: Re: Demon Worship
Post by: clove99 on February 18, 2011, 11:06:46 PM
This is wreaking havoc on my brain...hahahhaha.

I cannot reconcile how to invoke a demon of Satan by declaring the name Adonai/Jehovah and refer to him as true and holy.  This is a paradox, no?  A demon of Satan wouldn't agree to appear after a summoner gives reverence to the Xian god, would it?  I'd think it would be insulting to the demon, and by virtue, insulting to the Xian god to invoke a demon in his name.  Seems I'd be just p*ssing both sides off then.
Title: Re: Demon Worship
Post by: clove99 on February 18, 2011, 11:09:54 PM
Well, thank you.  Thank you very much for sharing this information.  It's more than I have collected from combined sources and gives me a more courageous foundation.
Title: Re: Demon Worship
Post by: Wren on February 18, 2011, 11:14:37 PM
Satan is subject to God within the confines of this belief system. The Goetia was never meant to be used by demonolaters. Most people who've actually read the ars goetia just break out laughing when they hear about diabolizing the ars goetia. I mean no offense, but the book is meant for Christians, and mostly priests at that. This is why it is hard to incorporate anything other than the demon's name and sigil into Satanist-friendly evocation.
Title: Re: Demon Worship
Post by: clove99 on February 18, 2011, 11:14:55 PM
One last Q:  So, that First Conjuration is taken from the Lesser or the Greater???
Title: Re: Demon Worship
Post by: Wren on February 18, 2011, 11:17:55 PM
Lesser, wait a sec. From here. (http://www.esotericarchives.com/solomon/lemegeton.htm) There are more versions, but that was the quickest one I could get to. It is incomplete so that you will buy the cd.
Title: Re: Demon Worship
Post by: clove99 on February 19, 2011, 03:39:52 AM
"The first book, Goetia, corresponds closely with the catalog of demons published by John Wier (or Johann Wierus) as Pseudomonarchia daemonum in his 1563 De Praestigiis Daemonum. In Wier's text there are no demonic seals, and the demons are invoked by a simple conjuration, not the elaborate ritual found in the Lemegeton."

So, does anyone know where to find the English translation of De Praestigiis Daemonum online?  I like simple rather than elaborate.


Title: Re: Demon Worship
Post by: clove99 on February 19, 2011, 03:50:59 AM
Taken from John Wier's Book:

CHAPTER III.
The houres wherin principall divels may be bound, to wit, raised and restrained from dooing of hurt.
AMAYMON king of the east, Gorson king of the south, Zimimar king of the north, Goap king and prince of the west, may be bound from the third houre, till noone, and from the ninth houre till evening.
 
Marquesses may be bound from the ninth houre till compline, and from compline till the end of the daie. 
Dukes may be hound from the first houre till noone; and cleare wether is to be observed. 
Item Prælati in aliqua hora diei. Prelates may be bound in anie houre of the daie. 
Knights from daie dawning, till sunne rising; or from evensong, till the sunne set. 
A President may not be bound in anie houre of the daie, except the king, whome he obeieth, be invocated; nor in the shutting of the evening. 
Counties or erles [Counts or Earls] may be bound at anie houre of the daie, so it be in the woods or feelds, where men resort not.

So regarding the timing of invocation, the demon I chose being a Duke, I conjured at the appropriate time of day, but the weather was not clear.  It was raining.  How much of a difference does weather make in conjuration so long as you're inside?

I know in Santeria and Palo that no curses or spells of domination are to be undertaken when it rains, even when indoors,  because rain is considered a blessing, a cleansing from god.

I wonder if Wier's reference to weather is similar.
 
Title: Re: Demon Worship
Post by: DragynWyllow on February 19, 2011, 07:59:03 AM
There may be a marked influence of celestial objects when it came to this Hebrew/Christian kind of magick. Almost any ritual that involves conjuring or evocation or invocation "prefers" if it were clear weather, even indoors as the position of the sun told you what time of the day it was and the moon told you what time of night it was. These guys didn't have clocks at the time, I believe  :wink:
Title: Re: Demon Worship
Post by: Wren on February 19, 2011, 08:12:00 AM
That's because demon magic is mixed up with celestial magic, which is inextricably related to "the heavens." Also, There are twenty four hours in every day; twelve from sun up to sundown and twelve from sun-down to sun-up, the hours of day starting at dawn and the hours of night starting at sunset. Right?
Title: Re: Demon Worship
Post by: DragynWyllow on February 19, 2011, 08:17:29 AM
That's because demon magic is mixed up with celestial magic, which is inextricably related to "the heavens." Also, There are twenty four hours in every day; twelve from sun up to sundown and twelve from sun-down to sun-up, the hours of day starting at dawn and the hours of night starting at sunset. Right?

Right you are my good sir(?) In this paradigm their days ended when the sun 'went away' and the new day started when the moon rose. When the moon was at its height it became midnight. I think that's why it throws everyone for a loop when the new moon happens :)
Title: Re: Demon Worship
Post by: Wren on February 19, 2011, 08:24:51 AM
Yep, I'm male. Speaking of traditional lunar astrology, do you have any idea what the 30th day of the moon could refer to? It makes my head spin.
Title: Re: Demon Worship
Post by: DragynWyllow on February 19, 2011, 08:37:47 AM
I've come across it only a few times and I prefer not to wrap my head around it, but I believe it was concerning Scripture (from the Old Testament of the Bible) Used in keeping the amount of months/days in a year on track, seeing as the revolution of the moon (as it was closer to the planet 2000 years ago than it is now) and the closely tracked sun did not equal a full 365.25 days. This was the only thing I could find on short notice, on the account of not having an extensive library on astrology :3

Quote
A day that needs to be discussed however is the 30th day of the month, which is called in astronomical terms, translation day.  It occurs approximately every other month as counted from New Moon day. This day cannot be either a seventh-day Sabbath or a New Moon, but appears to be in the work day category, but perhaps for personal projects rather than employment.  It is always the day following the fourth Sabbath of the month when the month is 30 days long, otherwise on 29 day months; New Moon day follows the fourth Sabbath of the month.  Translation days are not included in the Count to Pentecost.  Because it is a solitary day sandwiched between the fourth seventh-day Sabbath and New Moon day, it cannot be counted as part of a set of six work days followed by the seventh-day Sabbath, which is the criteria required, and known as a Sabbath complete.

The importance of the translation day, lies in keeping the 12 month years totaling 354 days, and the thirteen month years totaling 385.  This day is invaluable in bringing into harmony the Creator’s luni-solar year with the solar year every 19 solar years.
From http://www.worldslastchance.com/appointed-feasts/

Please forgive me if this is as unintelligible to you as it is to me. Only the last two sentence sums up the entire paragraph for me since, even as a Catholic as a child, we did not observe the feasts.
Title: Re: Demon Worship
Post by: Wren on February 19, 2011, 08:46:17 AM
Ah, that makes sense now. I was expecting something actually related to the moon since it was included in a list of significant astrological days for a working. You'd think that the planets would be the important part, and not the calendar. Those crazy astrologer priests.  :)
Title: Re: Demon Worship
Post by: DragynWyllow on February 19, 2011, 08:49:20 AM
Until they (those in the midEast and Asia Minor) realized that the stars also moved about the heavens, the largest celestial objects carried a far greater weight than even the north star.... Until 2000 years ago. And we all know what happened then.  :cool:
Title: Re: Demon Worship
Post by: Wren on February 19, 2011, 08:52:04 AM
Thank you for enlightening me. I figured the author was on drugs of some sort.
Title: Re: Demon Worship
Post by: DragynWyllow on February 19, 2011, 09:06:15 AM
Just to be the devil's Advocate... he probably was. 4000 years ago the Veda (ancient Idian civilization) had "discovered" Soma, a highly(!) hallucinogenic drink that was supposed to be the equivalent to the Greek Ambrosia, nectar of the gods. In the Rigveda more than 30 hymns were dedicated to this drug. These guys were so intoxicated they didn't have time for war. They were one of the most peaceful cultures around 1600-1400BCE. Think about the Hebrews and their ban on drugs other than alcohol. And given the Fertile Crescent (Mesopotamia) think about all the types of herbs they could have mixed into drinks... And what might have inspired even Solomon to write about conquering demons...
Title: Re: Demon Worship
Post by: Wren on February 19, 2011, 09:14:36 AM
I don't really think that the soma cult survived in the culture of the author of the Ars Notoria (the work I was referring to.) I think it's much more likely that he was mercury crazy or solanaceae crazy.
Title: Re: Demon Worship
Post by: DragynWyllow on February 19, 2011, 09:19:02 AM
Oh yes, I understand, I was merely making a correlation between some of the crazier ideas man has come up with... under the influence of drugs :3 But yes, it's very possible that he was crazy in those aspects. You'd have to be just a little to get away with some of these ideas...
Title: Re: Demon Worship
Post by: Wren on February 19, 2011, 09:22:24 AM
Pluto (craziness) guards all the gems of the Earth (inspiration), no?
Title: Re: Demon Worship
Post by: trismegistos on February 19, 2011, 03:10:31 PM
"Let me here once again insist on the absolute necessity in occult working of being courteous, even to the evil spirits; for the operator who is insolent and overbearing will speedily lay himself open to obsession by a spirit of like nature, the which will bring about his ultimate downfall." - S.L.M. Mathers

I find it rather odd that I read this, and then later last night as I was reading Book 4 by Crowley I read this.

Quote
It is, however, always easy to call up the demons, for they are always calling you, and you have only to step down to their level and fraternize with them.  They will tear you in pieces at their leisure.  Not at once; they will wait until you have wholly broken the link between you and your Holy Gaurdian Angel before they pounce, lest at the last moment you escape.

Anthony of Padua and (in our own times) "MacGregor" Mathers are examples of such victims.
Title: Re: Demon Worship
Post by: clove99 on February 19, 2011, 03:43:05 PM
I was once told that my magick failed because I shaved.  Yeah, can you believe it?  Because I cut hair on my person, it in turn cut the potency of my will.

This is an example of why I cannot stand superstition.

I know that there are powers, benign and malevolent, and I believe in testimonials, but after so much study and practice, there must be a key to being successful in asserting one's will on the world around them.  I just don't know what that key is, but it can't be drawing a circle in chalk, can it?  People have testified that they had successful demon contact without circles.  I don't believe darkcandle mentioned a circle.

Some go to elaborate means to invoke/evoke, and some keep it simple, but there has to be a common thread, right?

So, what is it?

I recited the First Conjuration last night (thought it was raining...don't think that interfered with anything), and had high hopes of observing something.  I kept asking for a verifiable sign of the presence of spirit, a sign that my request was heard and was accepted (rather than waiting indefinitely for manifestation), but didn't get anything.

I'm going to be more than agitated if a demon shows up for fun after my court deadline of March 9th, and then wants to talk.
Title: Re: Demon Worship
Post by: Aunt Clair on February 19, 2011, 07:31:47 PM
There is a kaballahistic legend that the magician should never evoke or invoke a demon and that they should attend to the lessons of the Goetia in their season when they appear. I believe this is the best course.

The common demon is a parasitic negative earthbound spirit which seeks to confuse , evoke fear , anxiety and consume the energy of this transaction in order to lift itself into the physical world for amusement. It has no power to give and conducting business with it is foolish.

The Goetic Demon is not the same animal at all. It is a Godform having an angelic aspect and a demonic aspect. When it appears to the magician in the season of its qlippoth, it can cause great fear, horrific clear visions that cannot be escaped that persist when the eyes are open or closed in dim or bright light. The magician is tested by their presence. When the magicians see the filth of their own soul and understands their own transgression , seeking forgiveness and offering it to their 'enemy' who taught this lesson then the appearance of the demon becomes angelic. That is when the magician may ask a boon or sit and attend to the lesson that is at hand.

 But 'The Magician' whom seeks to evoke the Goetic rather than waiting for them to appear may become 'The Fool' but the magician who seeks to enslave the Goetia is the fool .
Title: Re: Demon Worship
Post by: Levitas on February 19, 2011, 08:40:40 PM
But isn't a demon just a demon in the end??? How come they have two aspects?
Title: Re: Demon Worship
Post by: clove99 on February 20, 2011, 12:14:51 AM
Look, I turned to demon invocation because to achieve some of my goals, the will of others must be changed. (I won't at this point suspend this belief and concede to any pressured opinions that interfering with another's will is wrong, bad, naughty and subject to karma or the three-fold law.  I've heard it.  Don't either believe it or give a d*mn.)

Now, as I mentioned earlier in this thread, my current confusion doesn't stem from working with a demon, rather it comes from the concept that demon invocation can be successful through the Xian god instead of Satan.  So which is the most successful method of summoning when the goal is to alter another's will, through God or Satan?
Title: Re: Demon Worship
Post by: Aunt Clair on February 20, 2011, 04:50:32 AM
The Christian Satan does not exist. Neither does Moses or Adam or Eve and many others. Don't believe all you read.

The Jewish perspective is that Samael is the chief prosecutor of God and not a fallen angel at all. The Gnostic perspective is that Samael is one of the 5 helpers espoused in the Pistis Sophia and an earlier incarnation of Christ. Lucifer and Samael exist but Satan is just a word.

There are demons but none are more powerful than the capable magician except the Goetia. So there is no reason to call them. They can give nothing but confusion and pain. Well they often tempt with a bit of pleasure at the beginning of the relationship. But that pleasure soon ends and then comes the pain and the nightmares and the dramas. Demons pollute the sacred space. Demons cause anxiety, drepression, and deplete the vibration of the magician causing them to become less powerful emotionally, physically, mentally, spiritually and magickally.

Evoking a demon is easy enough , getting rid of them is harder. And using them is a joke , it does not occur. Those who summon demons become their hosts and the magician seeking to enslave them becomes a victim. Power taken from demons is a fantasy. Ask an exorcist. The demons place a cord or more into the magician's energy body and suck their energy. The end result is always the same;"Help me ,Help me." In the middle though the story is random and may include , suicidal urges, night terrors, a visit or two to the mental wards, violent rages, sabotaging of relationships and other good good times.

Goetia will come to the magician in their season for qlippothic lessons, without evocation.

But summoning the Goetia is not difficult either. Special papers and sigils are not necessary. Triangles won't contain them either. These tools of the trade can provide comforting blinds for the magician who wants to dabble though.

The magician who has developed the power of evocation need only sit in meditative trance in dim light in the sacred space and vibrate the name until the Goetic demon appears.Dim light facilitates clairvoyance. Meditative trance facilitates clairaudience. This effects better communication.

To develop the magical voice, draw energy into the throat from the crown down and from the perineum up and eventually into the throat centre directly, once the centre has developed sufficiently. Sending energy out of the energy centres will develop these also. As you exhale  from the centre of the neck send energy out in all directions like a starburst.

If you really seek power, evoke angels. Try the Grimoire of Armadel.



Title: Re: Demon Worship
Post by: clove99 on February 20, 2011, 11:22:04 AM
Ok, here is yet ANOTHER opinion from Aunt Claire.  See, everyone has a belief and it's extremely difficult to know which is fact and which is belief.

When you speak of demons in terms of a "joke" and not being rewarded by such contact, again, I am confused, because the pariticular demon I have been attempting to invoke is Dantalian, one of the 72 Goetic, which you say is preferred.  So, I needn't worry about the "joke" part as long as I am sticking with the Goetia, right?

Capable magician?  You saw my earlier post, a page or two ago, regarding the 45 year old magician who never got anywhere with spriitual satanism and then began using the Key of Solomon and gained contact?  I am sure he had pretty good meditative techniques down after being a magician all of his adult life, and that meditation didn't serve him well until he tapped into the Key of Solomon.  So, while I can appreciate that summoning is not about all of the dogma, I feel there has to be something about that Key.  What is that something?  And, for those, like myself, who have not achieved a state of being an accomplished magician, how do we find a mage for assistance, especially when we are in immediate need?  As in the case of the 45 year old, "LostSoul", someone can dim the lights and meditate for 25+ years and never get a result, so I can't believe that summoning contact with a Goetic demon is solely about meditative quality, either.

It's extraordinarily frustrating that I can't find anyone in my area, other than charlatans I'm sure, with whom I can connect to figure this stuff out and in the timeframe in which I need to.

Aunt Claire, you brought up angels, but it's my understanding and belief as well, because it makes sense to me, that angels do not interfere with another's will, which is exactly what I am looking to accomplish and soon.

No, of course I don't believe that one male and one female long ago are responsible for the entire human population, and I don't believe everything that I read, which is why I still question.
Title: Re: Demon Worship
Post by: clove99 on February 20, 2011, 11:23:52 AM
Practically speaking, I'm not going to be able to become a powerful magician by March 9th, 2011, so I have to look for another way to create a miracle.
Title: Re: Demon Worship
Post by: clove99 on February 20, 2011, 11:28:30 AM
Aunt Claire: "But summoning the Goetia is not difficult either."

Yes it is for me, I've been trying.  I don't know what's missing.  I have a feeling I won't ever know by getting a variety of opinions from the Internet, but need someone experienced enough who has had repeated success summoning the demons of the Goetia to counsel me.
Title: Re: Demon Worship
Post by: Wren on February 20, 2011, 01:58:52 PM
Hey, clove, You know what the angels mostly did in the Bible? They Rained Down the Wrath of Jehovah and smote them unbelieving heathens. Death is the ultimate infringement of free will if reincarnation is a joke. Therefore, angels are perfectly capable of infringing on free will if commanded by God (and by extension, in the name of God, the voces magicae.) Personally, I think Free Will is more of a joke than reincarnation, but that isn't exactly germain, now is it?  :biggrin: You put away your personal beliefs and enter into the system to make it work, that's the truth of paradigm shifting and "as if becomes as is." Not that chaos magic has any respectability around these parts anyways.

Best of Luck in finding a teacher.
Title: Re: Demon Worship
Post by: clove99 on February 20, 2011, 02:35:55 PM
*Sigh. Thanks.
Title: Re: Demon Worship
Post by: trismegistos on February 20, 2011, 03:27:33 PM
clove, do you think the reason you can't evoke Goetic demons might be that you do not have the authority/clairvoyance/clairaudience necessary for evocation?  I don't know how experienced you are, but if your trying to jump right into evocation, it's kind of like it says in Practice of Magical Evocation "Unless steps 1-8 (or some other system of initiation) have been completed, it will be useless to try to perform evocation".
Title: Re: Demon Worship
Post by: clove99 on February 20, 2011, 06:46:00 PM
That's what I'm saying.  I've asked how you obtain that authority and the answer I got was as vague and secretive as the entire system of magick.  BUT, some successfully evoke without any form of initiation, so that can't be it!?

I have 15 years of magickal experience, including the Goetia, so the question is how much investment of time and practice is needed to obtain this authority?
Title: Re: Demon Worship
Post by: DragynWyllow on February 20, 2011, 06:59:12 PM
I wish I could explain to you what it is that helps but I'm far from an authority on these matters. I spent the last 12 years of my life simply learning how to meditate properly. And I STILL work on it. While I learn different things, I try them out as I progress through my "training". Somethings I like and feel comfortable with, and I explore them more. And I had no chalk circles or anything of the sort, but just a sort of mental barrier as indicated by the furniture already in place in my basement. If you've been doing this for 15 years, I don't know what I could tell you that would help... I had avoided Goetia for many years, even after I found out about it, but I guess it takes some sort of mental preparation.

For those who have successfully done it, have any of you a clear image of the being you've summoned? So I know that my brain hasn't simply made an image for me to "communicate" with?
Title: Re: Demon Worship
Post by: Wren on February 20, 2011, 07:06:45 PM
The Grimms tell you to keep pure in body, mind and spirit, to fast, to cleanse yourself, to wear clean clothes (robes), to go to Mass and all of that. Pretty straight forward, honestly. Then you've got the idea of getting right with God through Theurgy to increase your authority, as well as cleaning the mind of its distracting chatter. Divine authority is the above within, you know?  :wink:
Title: Re: Demon Worship
Post by: clove99 on February 20, 2011, 07:18:13 PM
http://www.psychicwaves.com/letseespiritbeforedeath.html

"'Suddenly thinking of people you have not seen in years' or who have no discernible reason for 'popping into your thoughts,' seeing face of people, hearing voices and other visions during this time, just prior to sleep, are very common among sensitive people.

These things can be evidence of clairyvoyance, precognition, clairaudience, and/or mediumship.  Typically when the spirit of energy of a person who is about to die or has recently died appears to you as you have described, it is considered a strong indication of mediumship and/or precognitive abilities."

I looked up summoning the spirit of a recently deceased person, and found this.  The reason I looked this information up is because for a couple or few days now, I have been thinking heavily on an old friend from about 16 years ago, an ex lover, and decided just today to look him up.  He's a local musician/celebrity, so I figured I'd be able to find him, connect and chat.  He was my absolute first introduction to magick and his preference was Voodoo.  The first reference I found to him today was that he recently passed away, January 28th, 2011, at the young age of 53.  I also discovered that since we parted and due to his celebrity, he worked under an assumed name.  It's so odd because the online comments of respect for this person reflect of course his fans who know him under his stage name, yet a good amount of posts are from those of us who knew him under his real name.

Anyway, my point in bringing this up is that I have had this compelling feeling to reach out to him for only a few days now, and find out that he died just over 3 weeks ago.  Then I found the above reference that suggests that I may not be as psychically dead as I thought.  I do have psychic events and occurrences, but they're not controlled.  I have in the past had phenomenol results with what I called black magick and devil invocation, without using a book of knowledge or doing anything fancy other than intense preparation, what I felt was excessive spending on magickal supplies, and staying up all night making my commands.  So, I know that I may be able to return to that method, but don't want to.

I am here at Veritas Society trying to find a way to make it easier.

The other day I bought a nice circular mirror for my invocation and my son said to me, "No, not again.  It doesn't work.  Don't you realize how this affects me?"  My son is referring to the amount of time, energy, and money I have spent over the years, and while I did obtain great results, they weren't lasting.


Soooooooooo, if it is spiritual authority that I am lacking....how do I get it?  What are the steps (within reason)?  Why is it that others can make spirit contact without this authority?  No dogma, please.

And, I need more than a teacher right now if it takes times to develop evocation, because I have a court deadline to meet by March 9th, 2011, when the statute of limitations expires, so I'd much prefer to find someone to make the impossible happen if I can't get it done.

This might be the wrong place to ask this question, but I didn't see another appropriate topic.  What about asking my recently deceased friend for some help?  Maybe he surfaced in my thoughts because he's meant to help me.  I'd have to see if I could get through a summoning without crying though since I am grieving.
Title: Re: Demon Worship
Post by: clove99 on February 20, 2011, 07:20:30 PM
Sorry, I did not mean to italicize that much text.  I thought I turned it off.
Title: Re: Demon Worship
Post by: clove99 on February 20, 2011, 07:26:21 PM
DragynWylllow, interesting that you question the image you see because just yesterday I read somewhere through a series of links that led me to Diana Vera's site and information.  There is a section there that explains that not everything we see is a manifestation of spirit, but could be a psychological projection, and the importance of recognizing the difference between the two.  She said that the mind can play tricks on us, making us think that we are seeing a sentient, free-floating being when all it boils down to is a hallucination.

This was disappointing to me to say the least because, it's just another inconsistency to look out for when attempting to communicate with spirits.  Just food for thought for ya!
Title: Re: Demon Worship
Post by: Wren on February 20, 2011, 07:30:55 PM
If you are asking about spiritual authority, you are going to get dogma. Just like everything else. But this especially; It's called spiritual because it has to do with spirituality, aka, religion.

Some people say that the nephesh is just an energy sucking leech, others will say that a ghost is an evolved entity, because it has passed through the gates of death. That's the difference between the Kardecist view and the Jewish view. You'll hear both.

As for developing spiritual authority in non-denominational ways, you can try smashing kleshas, which releases a bunch of vital force and brings up the magician's spiritual authority, and also focal meditation, which strips away bothersome mental chatter.
Title: Re: Demon Worship
Post by: clove99 on February 20, 2011, 07:47:32 PM
Yeah, no, I did all of that.  I did cleanings (limpias) out the b*tt, wore white for days on end, went to church, prayed my b*tt off, and all I got was a bunch of bitterness.  Dogma.  A waste of time.  It that's how you get spiritual authority, then that can't be the stumbling block, because it's not concrete.  If I went to a priest and asked him how to change the will of another, there is no way that he would tell me to do all of those things and THEN God would bless me with the power to call upon a demon to do my bidding.  This is just reflective of opinion, not hardcore fact, which is what I seek.
Title: Re: Demon Worship
Post by: clove99 on February 20, 2011, 07:49:28 PM
Klesha?  Googling klesha now.
Title: Re: Demon Worship
Post by: clove99 on February 20, 2011, 07:54:05 PM
Klesha, now that's interesting because the suggestion (nutshell version) is to eliminate negative passion such as hate, lust and greed, and thereby obtain power to manifest one's will, BUT, (hahahaha) this won't work for me because I need HATE to curse someone, LUST to dominate someone, and GREED to get money and more money.  Those passions, I feel, are needed to manifest.
Title: Re: Demon Worship
Post by: Wren on February 20, 2011, 08:00:50 PM
Well, yeah. If you just follow the formula it won't work. The actions are symbols for changes within. If the symbols aren't applied right you get lost effort. Right? That's been my experience. If you do something by "rote" its going to be dead and without power. You are trying to get rid of the bitterness by any means necessary. The tantrikas would eat raw flesh, drink wine and have sex in graveyards to "develop their spiritual authority." It's all about the personal relationship with divinity, even if that divinity is "just" yourself. Tat Twam Asi- Thou Art That.

A)why do you have to "curse" someone when you bind them? Why do you have to hate the one you curse?
B)Greed is Good (in moderation)
C)The totality of the universe is sexual.

The cleaving of the Kleshas isn't that simple. It's better to think of it as crushing negative complexes to free up psychic energy.
Title: Re: Demon Worship
Post by: trismegistos on February 20, 2011, 09:00:32 PM
You could try Ibogaine or Datura, though you won't be doing anything like a ritual on Ibogaine or Iboga rootbark lol.  I believe Iboga to be a key ingredient in Soma, as it is a plant indigenous to the area's of Africa that I've read is where the yogi's obtain their ingredients.  I PM'd Veos once to ask if I had experienced one of the manifestations of AUM, as it was a constant sound in my right ear (I didn't learn about AUM being heard in the right ear until after my Iboga experience), but he never PM'd me back.

Witches used to use Datura for communication with spirits and "flying on broom sticks", but I would warn you against it, it is highly toxic and not at all pleasant, lasting days.
Title: Re: Demon Worship
Post by: clove99 on February 20, 2011, 11:18:28 PM
What do you gents know about Necronomicon?

It's recommended on another site, without much explanation, and when I searched it I was surprised to find that it is a fictional book, though I'm not sure what it is specifically about.
Title: Re: Demon Worship
Post by: Dea on February 21, 2011, 01:51:58 AM
It's something that won't help you.

To be honest, most of this probably won't help you. You say you have 15 years of magical experience, but what exactly does that mean? Have you used a daily routine, full of stable and reliable meditations or various rituals designed to increase your awareness of things around you, along with imbuing yourself with authority through those practices to actually evoke and use a demon?

I assume the answer is no, because if you had then you'd probably not have to ask about it here. Not trying to be mean, my point is that this is all pretty much meaningless to you without either a lot of luck or a really fast, get-God-quick system. The shortest is generally about 10 years, from what I've read about, and that isn't even a full system. I'm sorry, but maybe evoking a demon when you are no stronger than it isn't the answer to your problem.

I honestly think you'd have a better chance creating your own rituals and using them to further your goals.
Title: Re: Demon Worship
Post by: Cheezee on February 21, 2011, 02:00:13 AM
Maybe this might be of more help for you, clove99.

http://www.angelfire.com/mi3/tomekeeper/types/demons.html (http://www.angelfire.com/mi3/tomekeeper/types/demons.html)

It's from Tomekeeper's "The Library of Knowledge", a site dedicated to Direct Magic (Which also sees magic more as a developed skill rather than a product of meditations and rituals (Those still can help, though). The authority, within this view, would come from actively practicing magic on a trial-and-error basis instead of prayer and "stuff".)
It explains the "synergetic" act of "transvocation" as they call it. I'd say take a look at it, it might fit more into your view.
Title: Re: Demon Worship
Post by: Wren on February 21, 2011, 02:02:49 AM
I own a copy of the nec and the nec spellbook. They won't help. They take more time than you've got.
Title: Re: Demon Worship
Post by: DragynWyllow on February 21, 2011, 07:42:50 AM
DragynWylllow, interesting that you question the image you see because just yesterday I read somewhere through a series of links that led me to Diana Vera's site and information.  There is a section there that explains that not everything we see is a manifestation of spirit, but could be a psychological projection, and the importance of recognizing the difference between the two.  She said that the mind can play tricks on us, making us think that we are seeing a sentient, free-floating being when all it boils down to is a hallucination.

This was disappointing to me to say the least because, it's just another inconsistency to look out for when attempting to communicate with spirits.  Just food for thought for ya!

I may have never read this site, though it sounds familiar, but that's exactly what I learned in my psych classes. When the brain can be so powerful on its own, I start to question everything I can perceive to be true to my senses. And then getting into the metaphysical for more than half my life, I can honestly say I'm comfortable with questioning everything that's been thrown at me:  YHVH, Jesus, nephilim, demons, angels, dragons (though I really really really am skeptical about them, and I would love to see one manifest), fairies and that whole Celtic family, djinns, oni, and even dukes/spirits of the Goetia. Maybe what I saw was my mind's best attempt at familiarizing my eyes with something it can comprehend. To this day I still question the physical efficacy of a dog's, gryphon's, or a man's head all together on the body of a dragon. But I did not see these beings myself so I can't really question it based on experience.

As for Clove99, I've learned that sometimes the desire for an outcome brings on all kinds of doubt into the subconscious. Maybe you should distance yourself from the cause mentally and work on the actual project, not seeing whom you can conjure/manifest/evoke/invoke but just trusting you're getting the right entity for the job, if one is needed at all. For whatever you may want to do I think you should just trust... you... to do it. I've only done this Goetia thing once. It was an exhilarating experience but because I didn't know completely what I was doing, I was left with way too much energy after wards, no sleep for a few days, crashed for a week, and then I started looking at everything that could possibly be related to my ritual as Bune's work. Then I realized this was telling me not to rush things. Now I have exactly what I asked for, and going through this site I'm tempted again to call upon him. The reason I was left with so much energy was because I didn't ground myself after ritual. After all, I promised Bune my spiritual energy, for that is something I can constantly raise and is almost never in short supply. But that's also why I was incapacitated for a week. Maybe if you can walk us through your ritual, if you are at liberty to disclose such to us, or even me, and maybe we can point out the differences in what made it work for us and not for you and what you might have been doing right all all along?
Title: Re: Demon Worship
Post by: Akenu on February 21, 2011, 08:08:26 AM
@DragynWyllow: Manifestation of YHVH? Look around yourself :).
Well, what could be manifested is angel Metatron (Lesser YHVH), but really, how do you want evoke into manifestation the whole reality (YHVH)?
And why do you want to call a demon for something you can achieve on your own?

I see two major problems in demon invocations/evocations:
1) You have to be stronger than evoked demon. That means you don't need him.
2) You have to get protection from entity stronger than evoked demon. Why not to use the entity directly instead of using it to scare the demon we want something from? Should I pray to God to get something or to pray not to get killed by demon just to get something?

I also see a big problem in sacrificing your own energy to demons... If I understand it correctly, you do this:
1) suck energy from the surrounding
2) evoke demon
3) offer energy for something
4) get drained by demon
5) suck energy from the surrounding

How about this:
1) Suck energy from the surrounding
2) Use sucked energy to cause something
3) Make a sandwich.
Title: Re: Demon Worship
Post by: DragynWyllow on February 21, 2011, 08:19:19 AM
Hahah, I actually like that sandwich idea. But There was a time limit to its energy-sucking. Only when it's actually completed the task will it stop. Mind you, it was my first attempt and well that was the safest thing I could guarantee it without really sacrificing myself. There was a lot more going on than I can explain or remember for a good 6 hours and I was outlining all of the parameters for this to work. And the things I wanted it to do was more than simply cursing someone or bringing me money. I also invoked Mercury, and other easterly/communication/wind-related pantheons in order to bring understanding to myself, so when it came down to getting that job I've been wanting, there was no question of hire, when I met my partner, there was no doubt in the motivations, I wanted Bune's elegance of speech (to my pleasant surprise it's just as slick and serpentine as the most cunning of individuals) so that I can practically convince whomever to do as I asked (no, I don't convince the store clerk to give me that chocolate bar for free), I wanted the understanding that when spoken to I have no deep routed confusion that I normally have when speaking to someone.


But I look at all of this ritual as a mental development process. I merely used the metaphysical entity as a catalyst to improve myself. Seeing as I'm running late, I gotta go... Continue this soon
Title: Re: Demon Worship
Post by: Akenu on February 21, 2011, 08:21:13 AM
Running late? Use Fotamecus :).
Title: Re: Demon Worship
Post by: Mindlessinvalid on February 21, 2011, 09:37:55 AM
working with FTMCS is not a good idea, because he doesn't use his powers efficiently because it's not in his scope of experience.

I'm going to cite an anectdote about a goetic  summoning to explain my point.

A man once summoned a goetic demon to scry the whereabouts of his friend, and the goetic demon presented him with a vision of a library filled with boxes of books each sitting next to a scrying mirror.

The summoner's friend was in a computer lab, but due to the scope of experience of the goetic demon, the demon could not comprehend the information and sent it in a corrupted (or filtered) fashion.

FTMCS is no different in this regard and his scope of experience prevents him from altering his technique to compensate for the failings (the lag that happens after using him).

So if it's important, don't use FTMCS, you may end up screwing yourself over.

Title: Re: Demon Worship
Post by: DragynWyllow on February 21, 2011, 10:37:34 AM
Lol well no, my sister in law was waiting for me while I was typing up the previous response. It was nothing cutting short the message couldn't solve. And yeah, while that was erroneous in what I did, it still accomplished what I wanted it to do. Mind you this was nearly two years ago. I merely am relaying my experience of what I did. Haven't done another one like that since. I might also add that following this ritual I did things on my end to achieve my goals as well. Bune was simply an aid to progress that. I try not to make a lot of hoopla about it; you guys are the first to know about it since it happened, since that was my first and last ritual to that end.
Title: Re: Demon Worship
Post by: DragynWyllow on February 21, 2011, 10:55:37 AM
I see...
I have no intention of using my magick to ruin lives (at least with the aid of demons) and if I am so overcome with fury I generally settle for punching a wall... Well I'm glad you're here, BubbaFett. I'll take your advice. I've yet to consort with demons again and well my better instincts are the only things holding me from doing so.
Title: Re: Demon Worship
Post by: Akenu on February 21, 2011, 11:04:28 AM
I also have bad experience with demons, namely with one of them... Problem of my girlfriend that I have tried to banish and as a result I had lost everything... I can only thank God that I got everything back. That demon also wanted to kill me in car accident in January... I am getting stronger ever day and I hope that our last meeting will be the final showdown...
Title: Re: Demon Worship
Post by: Akenu on February 21, 2011, 11:12:39 AM
@BubbaFett: That reminded me. I've got the feeling that the demon chasing my gf is some sort of karma from past incarnations. Why else would a strong demon chase some common girl?
Title: Re: Demon Worship
Post by: Akenu on February 21, 2011, 11:28:37 AM
Well, karma is a great part of my experiences :).
That demon actually is her monster from the closet, she sees it till the childhood.
Well, I guess emotional healing will help in both cases, whether being a karma result or a subconscious image...

Could her subconscious manifestation be so strong that it could affect even me?
Title: Re: Demon Worship
Post by: Akenu on February 21, 2011, 11:46:16 AM
@BubbaFett: I am not really sure if it is boogeyman... Demon's appearance is quite common to a mothman.
There are more similarities like prophetic dreams (especially dreams and visions about someone's death).
And I am sure my gf didn't know what mothman was or what it looked like...
Title: Re: Demon Worship
Post by: Dancing_Crow on February 21, 2011, 02:30:02 PM
(snipped) the will of others must be changed. (snipped)

I submit to you the following: We are a reflection of our environment and our environment is a reflection of us. In order to change the reality around you, change yourself. Changing others is highly improbable - the one with the strongest will "wins". The will of the collective Cosmos trumps all. So if a practitioner has done the work of aligning his will with "Divine Consciousness", you won't change that person - and if the person's will you are trying to change has done this... well... 'nuff said.

"Be the change you wish to see in the world." - Gandhi
Title: Re: Demon Worship
Post by: Dancing_Crow on February 21, 2011, 02:38:58 PM
If you are asking about spiritual authority, you are going to get dogma. Just like everything else. But this especially; It's called spiritual because it has to do with spirituality, aka, religion.

Some people say that the nephesh is just an energy sucking leech, others will say that a ghost is an evolved entity, because it has passed through the gates of death. That's the difference between the Kardecist view and the Jewish view. You'll hear both.

As for developing spiritual authority in non-denominational ways, you can try smashing kleshas, which releases a bunch of vital force and brings up the magician's spiritual authority, and also focal meditation, which strips away bothersome mental chatter.

I agree sorta.

My current belief: Spirituality is Divinity reaching towards man. Religion is man reaching towards Divinity. I am the where and the when of the two meeting. Are you here, now?
Title: Re: Demon Worship
Post by: Wren on February 21, 2011, 07:11:03 PM
I've been reading Sri Aruobindo for my awesome term paper.

Shakti-force is Spirit reaching into man.

Kundalini-Force is man reaching up to spirit.

Mysticism is the way we describe the workings of consciousness-force to ourselves.

Religion is the way we try to describe the working of consciousness-force to others.

Now is the time we choose to be conscious of.

All forms are forces and all forces are consciousnesses. The supernal triad of Hermetic Kabbalah is Trinity. Three in One and One in Three.

I love me some Sri Aurobindo. Why isn't he discussed more here?
Title: Re: Demon Worship
Post by: Aunt Clair on February 21, 2011, 07:56:38 PM
Veos: Similarly, are there not Demons which agitate or are beyond various angels?
No demon vibrates beyond an angel. The angel has a higher than human vibration which is of love, light , peace and wisdom. The demon vibrates negatively lower than a human. By nature the demon's  presence pollutes a sacred chamber decreasing magician's abilities and causing anxiety, fear and confusion. The demon is a parasite and behaves maliciously to promote its own depraved intentions. It lies.

Angel..................................................... Demon
higher than human vibration.................... lower than human vibration
truth.......................................................lies
healing....................................................leeching
raising attunements..................................parasitic
inspires human.........................................evokes fear
provides hope, love, peace, forgiveness......causes rage , grief, hatred other negative emotions
feel like love and hugs...............................feels like burning whipping salt on a deep sunburn
teach without asking for anything .............lie and cheat with contracts, if you do this , I'll do this for you
can attend any realm and control demons...are constrained to negative realms and some parts of earth
Well, on the other hand if you're abusing the demon then the demon is already winning. How you treat others, regardless of whether they "deserve" it or expect it, speaks volumes about your own self.
You can treat another being formally without letting your defenses drop.~Steve
Quite Right.

The demon is to be recognised, pitied, shunned, exorcised from the innocent, and sent healing and rescued. It is not to be abused or enslaved. Michael the archangel teaches that it is an errant child of God too. He is firm and removes them from the homes of the live humans but he does not teach humans to abuse them. Samael binds them when they continue to harm others but he teaches that they are us and we should rescue , heal , pray for their release . The demon a magician meets may be a spirit from their past life.
... Humans are not demons.  Don't personify demons; demons, whether or not you can imagine it, are incapable of being "kind" ...However, I am going on theory here.  I've spoken with angels and elementals; not demons, therefore what I say on this subject is theory only.  
Actually demons are not live humans but they are the descended manifested spirit of a human who may be alive or may have died long ago. Demons do not have children and partners who are demons. They do not have demon puppies and kittens and live in demon homes and go to demon schools. They are as if a convict in a prison typically constrained to the lower realms of the Hels but able to exist on the earthly plane in the homes of the violent and abusing especially when in the homes of their human lives ' progeny.

Demons are the depraved and descended aspect of humans. They are the spirits of our violence against others. We need to heal them to save the world and ourselves. But we do not need to trust them. They are evil in vibration and can inflict harm. The magician is taught to treat them as a crocodile or shark. They are dangerous but should not be abused.

The demon is the spirit of a human. It is the negative vibration of a ghost.
If the human does nothing they do not move and have a ghost.
If the human has depraved acts of violence and non love to others they manifest a demonic aspect which exists after their death
If the human ascends and serves Godhead by loving, inspiring , healing others and rescuing lost souls et cetera than the human manifests an angelic aspect.

These aspects manifested by the magician may be born into the world while the magician yet lives and may aid the magician when angelic and may be the downfall of the magician who does evil.
Steve: Even the highest adepts encourage such treatment of the demons.
I disagree. The mahatma are the highest form of magician. They teach to rescue the demons. They teach, that it is a danger to the live human and so it must be removed from their homes. But they also teach to manifest pillars of light for them to find in their darkness .

There are pillars and fountains and plants of light throughout the Hels to help the demon move out of Hels. It is not a damnation for eternity. The demon need only forgive themselves, ask forgiveness from those they have harmed and from Godhead. They need to accept the light and their vibration is lifted. Or they are alone in the dark suffering . Though some are constrained or bound for a time because they continue to rise to the earthly plane inflicting mental illness and whispering lies into the minds of live humans.
Demons are not ensouled beings. In fact it is the soul of the magician they are after due to it's tetrapolar nature (having the 4 elements present). Being slave to a demon is the ultimate curse, which usually befalls initiates of Black Magick, and is indeed, the definition of Hell
Exactly. The manifestation of demons is the definition of Hels. Humans manifest them. The Jewish belief is that God does not make evil. Humans do. Demons are not creatures made by Godhead. They are the rubbish of human existence.
...so they are only made up of fire and wind or something?So I thought all souls were equal, coming from the ocean of light in Kether? How can we be different?
The angel and the demon have a connection to the soul from which these were manifested and they have a consciousness of their own. The angel is the positive air aspect of the human spirit and the demon is the negative fire aspect. As the demon is given healing light it forms a human face and its vibration is raised. To leave the Hels, it must ascend.
Steven, My point was that humans are deserving of all that you mentioned in your posts, but demons are not.  Demons should not be treated like friends or humans.
They are like violent criminals. They deserve compassion but should not be trusted, they are dangerous but should not be abused. Christ says in the Acts of Charity in Matthew that we should visit those imprisoned. We should not visit demons in our homes but we may attend to them in Hels and inspire and heal and rescue them in the company of our angel and the archangels.
I did not say befriend the demon. I said treat it with respect, ie in a similar manner that you would treat a shark with the respect it deserves as a being capable of eating you.~Steve
Exactly.
The magician does not summon a demon just to behave in an "ungodly" manner toward them, no, this comes as he realizes, intuitively and clairvoyantly, the intentions of the demon. He begins to treat them as they deserve to be treated, while maintaining his Divine status in the process.
We do not summon convicts to our homes to learn about them. We learn about them from news and research in prisons. We should not summon demons ever. The magician can evoke the archangels and tour the Hels in protection and learn how they can help to heal and rescue souls. There is a lot of work to be done. Magicians can become angels and begin to do this work.
Steve, do you presume that Christ and his apostles just asked the demon to politely leave the host?  No.  They "command" the demon out.  They don't "ask" the demon to leave.... Exorcism Rites follow the same guidelines in as much that the demon is dealt with for what it is, a Demon, and then cursed and bound in the name of Christ to be driven from the host.  It says everywhere in the Bible that the demons aren't just commanded but are even "rebuked".  
This is true but it does not give permission for the magician to enslave ,abuse or debase a demon. Michael chastised me when I went in shamynic projection to the home of a peer magician and saw her being anally raped by a demon. I came in through the roof. I saw this act and instinctively kicked the demon in the head. But Michael said this is the demon manifested by her father. She has allowed this to happen to her. They both must be healed. The demon cried and crept to a corner of the room. Michael lectured them both about their abusive relationship and told them the wages of this would be to exist as demons. He banished the demon from the girls dormitory. It had projected there when she went to university to continue his abuse. Then he told the adult daughter to clean herself and remove herself from this act to refrain from it.

Michael et al give swords of light to magicians . These heal, banish, dispel, lift the vibration of and separate but these do not harm and abuse and can not be used to kill. Raphael used a sword to cut off the head of a demon who continued to confuse and consume a young boy. This causes pain but it grows back as it is not a physical body. The point of him cutting off the head was to punish the demon who would not refrain from harming the living.
Reply part II pages 6-14
The point of bullying demons is that by bullying them you close off any connection you may make with them. This makes it more difficult for them to control you.
Steve and Trimestigos have very valid premises concerning this, here.

Buddha teaches that bullying is the author of dis-ease. Our actions which bully others cause them to have dis-ease and us. We form negative cords and karmic debt by bullying.Who would want to be in a karmic loop with a demon?

We heal ourselves, then we heal our families and relationships, then the magician heals and transmutes their inner red demons of Seth. Then the magician heals their monad and the Forest of Souls from past life transgressions. We see our own demons manifested from past life violence and must heal these and then we develop compassion to heal the demons created by others so that they may rejoin the soul in an afterlife of learning and love and forgiveness and cease plaguing the living.

I find it very difficult to find any intelligent discussion of the Goetia or serious workings with demons.
http://www.occultcorpus.com/forum/showthread.php?12052-Grimoire-Translations-for-the-21st-Century-Magician
http://www.occultcorpus.com/forum/showthread.php?12250-video-The-Goetia-is-quot-some-bullshit-quot&p=98246#post98246
HAGE http://www.occultcorpus.com/forum/showthread.php?12200-Hage&p=97764#post97764
Vasago http://www.occultcorpus.com/forum/showthread.php?12042-Vassago-ah-sa-ku&p=96449#post96449
Asmodeus http://www.occultcorpus.com/forum/showthread.php?11754-Asmodeus-smites-the-wedding-party&p=93262#post93262
Samael http://www.occultcorpus.com/forum/showthread.php?11290-The-Archangel-Sammael&p=89215#post89215
Astaroth http://www.occultcorpus.com/forum/showthread.php?10445-Introduction-to-Astaroth
Grimoire of Armadel http://www.occultcorpus.com/forum/showthread.php?3862-Grimoire-of-Armadel&p=36078#post36078



Title: Re: Demon Worship
Post by: clove99 on February 22, 2011, 09:30:45 AM
Thanks, Cheezee.  Direct Magick, explained simply, seems to be what I would prefer.  Then I got to reading and it got complicated quickly (hahahaha).

One of the basic rules for Direct Magick is to separate the ego from the will.  Ok.  How?  Apparently more meditation is involved, but do you just meditate to will that your will be separated from youself?  What?  Come on.  There has to be a more simple way to explain these things.  These topics are explained in terms of a specialty and as if the reader already knows what is being discussed, when specialized areas need to be explained in much more remedial terms.
Title: Re: Demon Worship
Post by: clove99 on February 22, 2011, 09:35:47 AM
Also, the way at least that one link explained Direct Magick is still establishing a connection with a demon, and first identifying the demon with which you wish to connect that suits your purpose...your will.  Ok, so where is the list of demons from which to choose?  Or, does the name, demon, just refer to ANY will or desire, like greed or lust.  But, in my case, I can't attach a term like those.  I can only say that my will is more of a need for justice.

Which demons does Direct Magick work with?
Title: Re: Demon Worship
Post by: vobanack on February 22, 2011, 10:24:18 AM
not gonna read 14 pages just to see if I am repeating someone or if it's actually been done.
I think the whole discussion of whether or not using a demon or angel is unimportant, yeah you might be discussing this to show demons can be harmful, ect... But if this person is working with demons (or whatever) and it is working for them then that behavior should be nurtured and aided. They might not be ready, they might not be talking to a demon, ect... but they are on that exact path for a reason and should follow it regardless of possible danger, of course being prepared helps, but in the end if it's worth the risk then why not go for it.

Meaning that if they intend to evoke anything then tell them what they need to know in order to do so, not debate over whether they are doing the right thing. (In case I was misunderstood, you have to let a child figure things out for themself or they will depend on you forever. You are focusing on demons and angels when they are focusing on evokation, just tell them what they need to know and then talk about whether they are doing the right thing in another thread cause it just delays their progress.)
Title: Re: Demon Worship
Post by: vobanack on February 22, 2011, 10:36:21 AM
They can be cautious I'm not saying to not be, I am just saying they are asking for help and everyone ignores it talking about other things.
Title: Re: Demon Worship
Post by: Dea on February 22, 2011, 10:44:53 AM
Actually, help has been given repeatedly.

And this...

Quote
But if this person is working with demons (or whatever) and it is working for them then that behavior should be nurtured and aided. They might not be ready, they might not be talking to a demon, ect... but they are on that exact path for a reason and should follow it regardless of possible danger, of course being prepared helps, but in the end if it's worth the risk then why not go for it.

Is a dangerous attitude to pursue things. Using the same logic, you can say a mass murderer's behavior should be condoned just because he was on the path for a reason.
Title: Re: Demon Worship
Post by: vobanack on February 22, 2011, 10:51:40 AM
That's good then, like I said I wasn't gonna read 14 pages to find out. lol.

Think of it this way, if that mass murderer didn't go killing people how do you know those people he would have killed weren't just going to go off and kill someone else. It all has a purpose, even if it is not so clear. Another way to see it is that without death then the populations of all species would rise to dangerous levels killing everyone and everything due to lack of recourses. ect...

The murderer is evil, but gives good and pure results.

What I am saying is that this path would most benefit this person otherwise they wouldn't be on it.

My other message is most times the unimportant stuff gets debated when someone poses a question. Like in an article from prophecy that said all this stuff yet everyone wanted to focus on whether or not animals actually have souls/spirits.

Since I don't necessarily believe in hell I couldn't tell ya, to satanists it's a good thing, to christians it's not to old greek mythology that's where everybody went if I remember right though it wasn't good or bad it just was. Perspective plays a major role, which opens the opportunity that afterall this person may have been dealing with "angels" this entire time only they just call and see them as demons.
Title: Re: Demon Worship
Post by: vobanack on February 22, 2011, 10:58:54 AM
Exactly, to you it's not. To me I couldn't tell ya since I use to be christian and satanist it could go either way for me. To this person it is a good thing. They have associated this demon or just it's name to a positive spectrum which could yield positive results.
Title: Re: Demon Worship
Post by: vobanack on February 22, 2011, 11:06:15 AM
lol, then it's their problem. It is up to them not us to be sure they are ready for anything. We aren't their teacher only fellow students, if they have a teacher then it is up to them to decide if they are ready to receive the information. Otherwise ask and you shall receive should be the motto.

We didn't all learn the things we did by having our hands held through it all, once in awhile we have to strike out on our own. What happens is up to this person, another thing to consider is if they are hard headed and just do it anyway they would then be lacking the information they would have needed which could have been provided but wasn't because of our need to protect them.
Title: Re: Demon Worship
Post by: Akenu on February 22, 2011, 11:13:59 AM
@vobanack: Satanist?
:D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D

Sorry, but there is a big different between Satanist and so called "satanist" from LaVey's school...

Also... 95% of entities are not demons. There is big difference between goetia "demon" and a real demon. Trust me, you would try to invoke a real demon and all you would get are just tears and heavily damaged life.
Title: Re: Demon Worship
Post by: vobanack on February 22, 2011, 11:15:07 AM
lol, I was more sumerian pagan than satanist.
Title: Re: Demon Worship
Post by: Akenu on February 22, 2011, 11:17:59 AM
@vobanack: If you know that, why you claim the other? Is it so popular being a "satanist"?
Title: Re: Demon Worship
Post by: clove99 on February 22, 2011, 11:18:07 AM
BubbaFett, control, concentration and projection of thought.  Oh, I have plenty of these things, but am trying to troubleshoot how to circumvent the rebellion of the other person's will.  It is the will of the other person that I am trying to change...and fast, I might add.  I have intensity and mental focus to apply my will to this other person, but their will immobilizes them so they don't act.  To overcome their will, I decided I would try a demon, and without much luck as I have written.  And, I need a demon to possess them, I think, in order to motivate them to do as I will.  A demon's influence should be immediate, shouldnt' it?

vobanack, I agree that someone who pursues a path does so in learning and should be directed on how to achieve such ends without unsolicited advice that wastes everyone's time.  And, it becomes that individual's responsiblity to ultimately decide if the path they have chosen remains or is altered.  So, the most frustrating thing is how to receive the instruction I need in very simplistic terms.

My sister is a seamstress, and if she were asked to instruct how to sew an article of clothing by someone who never knew terms like thread, stitch, eyehole, tension, zigzag, etc., let alone even how to sew a button onto something, she would first have to explain these terms, and she wouldn't bother explaining anything that didn't serve the person's immediate purpose.  If they needed to have their pants hemmed for an immediate event, she wouldn't give them a Sewing 101 lesson, she would tell them step by step how to get those d*mn pants hemmed, and nothing more.

I need to be told exactly what to do in order to impose my will onto another person, specifically change the mind of this attorney who has been working with me for over a year now, and then in the eleventh hour (3 weeks prior to the statute of limitations expiring) drops my case due to "unforeseen personal reasons at work".  I can't even get in touch with the main attorney who referred me to his associate who in turn referred me to her associate, being my attorney.  The #1 attorney is out of town tied up in depositions, and the #2 attorney has taken a different position with the City that prohibits her from even talking to me, and the #3 attorney is the only one who can handle my case, but dropped it without warning, and after all of my 2 hour drives to meet with her in San Diego, and the countless hours file-sharing.  I don't have time to find anyone else.  Her mind needs to be changed!

Maybe I should start smaller.  Maybe I should try to impose my will to have that hot guy who works at my local store break up with his girlfriend and come to me for a booty call.  This of course is less important than the main legal issue, but still worthy.
Title: Re: Demon Worship
Post by: vobanack on February 22, 2011, 11:19:34 AM
Nah, just force of habbit. I go to a forum where people always call it satanism so I picked it up.
Title: Re: Demon Worship
Post by: clove99 on February 22, 2011, 11:20:02 AM
If this person does pursue this through then I hope we don't get a "I got a demon problem" thread by the same person in a few months.

HAHAHAHAHA LOL
Title: Re: Demon Worship
Post by: clove99 on February 22, 2011, 11:22:46 AM
vobanack, I have a question for you since you used to be Xian.  How do you get magick to work to turn a Xian away from Xian principles if that is what is keeping them from submitting to your will?  In other words, if the reason someone doesn't give into your will is their fear/respect for the Xian god, then how does one go about changing that and shaking up their belief system?  Of course, I would think of it in terms of enlightenment, but they wouldn't.
Title: Re: Demon Worship
Post by: Akenu on February 22, 2011, 11:25:07 AM
@vobanack: Be careful with that naming, there is really a big difference between satanism and neo-satanism
@clove99: So you want to call a demon to get a guy of another girl? Is that enough for you to get many next lives ruined? I guess a therapist would be a better choice for you...
Title: Re: Demon Worship
Post by: clove99 on February 22, 2011, 11:25:17 AM
...another thing to consider is if they are hard headed and just do it anyway they would then be lacking the information they would have needed which could have been provided but wasn't because of our need to protect them.
[/quote]

Exactly!  So, I am ready.  I'm ready to be told step by step how to achieve my will (at this point I'd almost pay to have someone else adopt my will and get the job done that way), without all the flowery language.  Just direct and simple.
Title: Re: Demon Worship
Post by: vobanack on February 22, 2011, 11:25:42 AM
You don't need magic for that, you'll find a persuasive argument is just as effective. On a side note magic is not just some mystical thing, it is everything. You breathing is magic, you eating is magic. That is just an easier way to see things.
Title: Re: Demon Worship
Post by: vobanack on February 22, 2011, 11:30:37 AM
If you want any chance of getting this attorney to work your case again you have to know exactly why they left. Then you need to find a way to invalidate that reason.

Also i'm not saying you are ready, just that it is unimportant if you are or not.

About your question regarding christians, you can't shake anyones belief in anything. They have to want that change to occur in the first place. You can't make them stop believing in god you can only let them realize they don't want to believe in him in the first place.
Title: Re: Demon Worship
Post by: clove99 on February 22, 2011, 11:36:20 AM
Awakened, I was using the hot guy as an easier example of imposing my will, I think.  No, what I want to do is change an attorney's mind.

But, wait, so what if I wanted to use the will of lust to cause a relationship to break up and attract a guy to me.  Is this unheard of?  Would it be the first time in the world that anyone has ever chosen someone as the object of their affection and decided to have them for themselves?

If this is a problem for anyone here, then it brings new meaning to Demon Worship, which is related to Satanism, which IS the indulgence and imposition of will.

I have been feeling that the readers/posters of this thread are too WHITE LIGHTED to be truly interested in demon worship.  Refer me to a therapist if you will, and I will refer you to a mainstream bible pastor.  You wouldn't get much farther than I in terms of accomplishment that way.  And, Awakened, I thought we just covered the unimportance of giving unsolicited advice.  I believe a forum rule is DON'T BE RUDE.
Title: Re: Demon Worship
Post by: vobanack on February 22, 2011, 11:39:32 AM
They are only looking out for your and others well being.

To use lust you have to become lust, you can't just "cast a spell" and expect them to magically come to you. You must cause it to occur.
Title: Re: Demon Worship
Post by: clove99 on February 22, 2011, 11:42:26 AM
I don't know.  That sounds too detailed.  When I practiced under my Padrino, he taught me (in spirit evocation) that you simply ask for the end goal and not worry about how it is done because there could be many reasons a person does not conform to your will.  His method was just to ask to have it done despite any obstacles.

It's almost impossible to find out why she flaked.  It could be financial, or health related, or a better case popped up.  Who knows and it's not my position to inquire.  I could go in circles trying to invalidate every known and unknown reason she had for quitting on me.
Title: Re: Demon Worship
Post by: vobanack on February 22, 2011, 11:44:55 AM
I think the reason he told you not to worry about how it is done is because when you do worry and constantly think about it you affect how it is supposed to play out. Meaning if you interfere to much in how it will occur it won't occur at all.
Title: Re: Demon Worship
Post by: clove99 on February 22, 2011, 11:51:38 AM
BubbaFett, "To force something is very advanced.."  Really?  Then Direct Magick, imposing my will, is not for me with such limited time at my disposal.  Apparently, imposition of will onto another person isn't so advanced once you evoke a demon, so maybe I should go back to evocation.  Can't I just dare the demon to appear, and then double dare them to accept my challenge of altering this person's will in exchange for belief in and worship of it?  I can't be the first person to stumble so much with accomplishing demon evocation or magickal will.

So, without too much caution, could it be effective to use my anger and frustration in invocation/evocation and try to tempt the demon to appear?  I know this goes against the idea of being respectful as I originally thought, but since the demon hasn't done anything for me YET, and hasn't even had the courtesy to appear when invited, then it hasn't earned my respect.  Would it be effective to, you know, challenge a demon with phrases like, "Yeah if you're real, then prove it!" or "If you're as powerful as you claim to be, then show me by changing this person's mind for me."?
Title: Re: Demon Worship
Post by: vobanack on February 22, 2011, 11:55:28 AM
lots of people see demons a different way, myself included I see them in many ways. One way is they are personality traits that we can adopt, the seven vices and virtues. another is that they are just energy applied by an individual to accomplish something. Another is that they are outside forces which exist, if so they are living their lives as you live yours. If they won't come to you, then go to them.
Title: Re: Demon Worship
Post by: clove99 on February 22, 2011, 11:58:25 AM
Magic is an art that takes a very and I do mean very strong will to make things happen. Just because you ask for something doesn't always mean you get it. Even advanced magician know that not everything go their way. The best thing you could do is find another way around the problem through normal means. If you want to work with demons over such mundane problems no one here will stop you.

IF it were possible to find another attorney to take this case in a specialized area on a contingency basis, I would much prefer to do that.  It's not!  This one is the only viable option, otherwise I wouldn't be considering such extreme use of magick.

And, if it takes such will (which I have) and still might fail, then it is not an exact science.  And, it should be by now.  Psychology (human behavior) is a science, though identifying behaviors takes skill.  Psychic implementation should by now be regarded as a science and studied as such.  By now, there should be some clear cut methods for how to influence people and events from afar.  When advanced magicians fail, they should know exactly why and be able to refine their approach to remedy the failure.
Title: Re: Demon Worship
Post by: vobanack on February 22, 2011, 12:00:07 PM
Or they may have failed because it was for the best, there are an infinite number of reasons why things occur just as there are an infinite number of consequences that spring forth. You have to know what drives a person if you want to control them, you can't just wing it people aren't so simple as a cookie cut out, lol.
Title: Re: Demon Worship
Post by: clove99 on February 22, 2011, 12:01:09 PM
I think the reason he told you not to worry about how it is done is because when you do worry and constantly think about it you affect how it is supposed to play out. Meaning if you interfere to much in how it will occur it won't occur at all.

Actually, the reason he stated his requests as he did to the spirits was just what I described...to keep it simple, and in case there were unknowns.  He would simply request to have the beautiful girl come to him with lust and love and leave it up to the spirits to remove the obstacles, whether it be an already existing relationship or a patterned belief system.  The request would be just to bring her to me...regardless.
Title: Re: Demon Worship
Post by: vobanack on February 22, 2011, 12:03:04 PM
Yes it removes obstacles, that is the basis of self hypnosis no time and place, ect... All subconsciously sought after. But if you constantly worry about how it is done then it will constantly change and never occur. You have to see the hidden lessons as well.
Title: Re: Demon Worship
Post by: clove99 on February 22, 2011, 12:06:09 PM
Or they may have failed because it was for the best, there are an infinite number of reasons why things occur just as there are an infinite number of consequences that spring forth. You have to know what drives a person if you want to control them, you can't just wing it people aren't so simple as a cookie cut out, lol.

Oh, no, no, no, no, vobanack, you can't say that.  In demon worship and satanism, you cannot limit the results to "what is for the best", because it is the will of the magician that determines what is best.  When you talk about other forces determining what is best, you are going right back into Xianity, and leaving it up to the divine universe, i.e. the Xian god.  That's NOT what either demon invocation or satanism is about.
Title: Re: Demon Worship
Post by: vobanack on February 22, 2011, 12:09:16 PM
I am we, we are us, us is all. You have to learn that eventually. You are a part of all things and are influenced by all things. It isn't just your will which exists but everyones most times all of them contradicting each other. What I mean by it is for the best is not a form of submission but recognizing that it either isn't the right time, or it might just be a waste of time because something better is nearby, ect...
Title: Re: Demon Worship
Post by: clove99 on February 22, 2011, 12:10:04 PM
WTF is going on here.  vobanack, it was you just a little while ago whose advice was to just teach and let live and let learn.

vobanack and BubbaFett, do either of you have a rock solid approach to changing someone's mind OR a referral to another site/forum to connect tangibly with an experienced Satanist/magician?  If so, please do tell.  If not...
Title: Re: Demon Worship
Post by: Akenu on February 22, 2011, 12:10:58 PM
@clove99: Few points:
1) As vobanack stated, he wasn't satanist
2) Have you tried sigil Magick or anything else before talking big about using demons?
3) No, it's not first time I had heard that and I am sad because I know it wasn't the last time
4) Let's say you are "lucky" enough that you will find and call a real demon, do you think it will help you? No, you will get damned and your whole life will get ruined...
Title: Re: Demon Worship
Post by: clove99 on February 22, 2011, 12:12:46 PM
No disrespect, but this IS turning into a waste of time.  I said I'm willing to pay.  It is worth it to me to pay someone to put a spell on this atty b*tch and change her mind so that I can in the end get a multi-million $ judgement.
Title: Re: Demon Worship
Post by: vobanack on February 22, 2011, 12:13:18 PM
lol, Clove calm down. I am helping you, you are just sticking solid to your beliefs. Which is good, but I have learned that beliefs are a tool to be used to achieve success, not a system to live by.
Title: Re: Demon Worship
Post by: clove99 on February 22, 2011, 12:14:31 PM
Opinions, opinions and more opinions.  Where can I get the facts?  You all may mean well, but try not imposing YOUR belief, and stick with the facts.  Awakened, you might have to first try differetiating between the two (fact and belief).
Title: Re: Demon Worship
Post by: vobanack on February 22, 2011, 12:16:53 PM
The facts are, you have to know why she stopped helping you. You can't just force her to help you again. You need to know how to invalidate her reasons. You can't just send demons at her expecting results, you still must partake in the action if you want success. ect... It isn't a matter of casting a spell but you putting in the effort.
Title: Re: Demon Worship
Post by: Akenu on February 22, 2011, 12:17:43 PM
@clove99: Look BubbaFett knows very well how many problems I have with one fucking demon that got in my life.
Trust me that I am just trying to help you, you really don't need a demon. Try a sigil or something more potent (and less dangerous).
And... BubbaFett is one of the best magicians I have ever met...
Title: Re: Demon Worship
Post by: Dancing_Crow on February 22, 2011, 12:18:39 PM
(snipped)
I need to be told exactly what to do in order to impose my will onto another person, specifically change the mind of this attorney who has been working with me for over a year now, and then in the eleventh hour (3 weeks prior to the statute of limitations expiring) drops my case due to "unforeseen personal reasons at work".  I can't even get in touch with the main attorney who referred me to his associate who in turn referred me to her associate, being my attorney.  The #1 attorney is out of town tied up in depositions, and the #2 attorney has taken a different position with the City that prohibits her from even talking to me, and the #3 attorney is the only one who can handle my case, but dropped it without warning, and after all of my 2 hour drives to meet with her in San Diego, and the countless hours file-sharing.  I don't have time to find anyone else.  Her mind needs to be changed!
(snipped)

My method to effect change in this manner is to cast a Circle. After the Circle is cast, I call in the spirits of the seven directions into the Circle and ask them for aid and support in my working. Then I state my intention followed by "in accordance with the Highest Good of all touched by this working." I usually "activate" my Reiki at this point then rattle and drum whilst visualisizing the "target" of the working. Once my "emotion" about the working is "spent" I cease drumming and thank the spirits for joining me in Ritual and Ceremony. I then close the circle and let it be.

So in your case, I would formulate my intention as: "[name of attorney] I ask for your help in this matter. I feel that this help would best be rendered by you changing your mind. [name of attorney], in accordance with the Highest Good of all touched by this working, render your aid unto me."

Hope that helps in sewing your pants.
Title: Re: Demon Worship
Post by: Dancing_Crow on February 22, 2011, 12:25:32 PM
Yes it removes obstacles, that is the basis of self hypnosis no time and place, ect... All subconsciously sought after. But if you constantly worry about how it is done then it will constantly change and never occur. You have to see the hidden lessons as well.

Lord Ganesh is good for removing obstacles in your path and placing obstacles in the path of your adversaries.
Title: Re: Demon Worship
Post by: vobanack on February 22, 2011, 12:27:23 PM
All you can really rely on is your ability to persuade her to help you again, using magic isn't 100% it is all chance the same as life.

If you want to know why she stopped helping you and wish to use magic means then sit down and meditate, ask yourself repeatedly why did she stop helping you, ect... until you receive an answer then figure out how to invalidate that reason for her.

Something you should consider is she may have a higher will than you which would cause the demons to fail anyways. But if you have to use a demon then just summon one or invoke one.

Try meditating, breathing and counting down slowly from 100 to 0, visualize a world, place yourself there. now live in that world until it becomes real and keep going there until you meet your demon and then ask them to help you. Of course in doing the meditation you must at all times keep the intention of meeting the demon.
Title: Re: Demon Worship
Post by: Akenu on February 22, 2011, 12:36:12 PM
@clove99: Try this http://files.vsociety.net/data/library/Section%201%20(A,G,M,S,Z)/Frater%20FP/Unknown%20Album/Sigils%20in%20Theory%20and%20Practice.PDF
It always worked for me :)
Title: Re: Demon Worship
Post by: Dancing_Crow on February 22, 2011, 12:54:12 PM
(snipped)

I have been feeling that the readers/posters of this thread are too WHITE LIGHTED to be truly interested in demon worship.  (snipped)

I point you to the Laws of Magick by Isaac Bonewits: specifically three laws in particular. - http://forums.vsociety.net/index.php?topic=17533.0

23. Law of Polarity: Any pattern of data can be split into at least two patterns with "opposing" characteristics, and each will contain the essence of the other within itself. "Everything contains its opposite."

24. Law of Synthesis: The synthesis of two or more "opposing" patterns of data will produce a new pattern that will be "truer" than either of the first ones were; that is, it will be applicable to more realities. "Synthesis reconciles."

25. Law of Dynamic Balance: To survive and become powerful, one must keep every aspect of one's universe(s) in a state of dynamic balance with every other one; extremism is dangerous on all levels of reality. "Dance to the music."

Demons are introduced into the "Veritas Energy Stream" thus "white lighters" are made manifest in order for synthesis to occur. What you are seeing/experiencing is the "system" balancing itself - there are a LOT of awakened individuals in this energetic stream.
Title: Re: Demon Worship
Post by: clove99 on February 22, 2011, 07:41:26 PM
Awakened, is Sigil Magick that easy?  I have only worked with sigils once years ago, but the method was slightly different.  Rather than destroying them immediately, I kept them hidden around for a while before destroying them.  How long does it take to notice the effects of a sigil?  A better way to ask that question is what is the longest amount of time one should wait to determine if a sigil will be effective?
Title: Re: Demon Worship
Post by: vobanack on February 22, 2011, 09:17:34 PM
that's entirely up to you, there are no set times for anything.
Title: Re: Demon Worship
Post by: Wren on February 22, 2011, 09:31:20 PM
that's entirely up to you, there are no set times for anything.

Bwahaha! No set times? I love you guys.

Title: Re: Demon Worship
Post by: clove99 on February 22, 2011, 11:04:06 PM
In Palo the waiting period is 3, 7, or 21 days.  If you don't get what you want by then, you do something else or refine your approach, but you don't wait indefinitely.

About sigils, the most concise definition I found is, "A sigil is a symbol that is created by you, used to focus your subconscious to do a particular task."

The problem I see with this is that it's not my subconscious that needs to be convinced to do a particular task.  It is someone else's.  So how effective can sigils be in influencing the will of another, especially if that other never sees or otherwise comes into contact with the sigil?
Title: Re: Demon Worship
Post by: clove99 on February 23, 2011, 12:07:09 AM
AHA!!!  Look what I found...

"For me the period between launching the sigil and its manifestation as a real world event is usually 3 days, 3 weeks, or 3 months depending on the variables involved.
I repeat:  sigils ALWAYS work."

http://www.goetia-girls.com/occultarticles_zs.html

I still haven't seen an example of where a sigil can be used to influence the will of another.  If it is MY will that such and such attorney agrees to take my case, as someone pointed out already, it is her will that needs to change, not mine.  So jump in here and explain if you can just state your will that so and so does what you want, regardless of their will.

Title: Re: Demon Worship
Post by: Aunt Clair on February 23, 2011, 01:09:06 AM
I asked for tips and I received many! Thank you. I would like to respond to those kind individuals here at vsociety.net who have taken the time to give me their time and their kind opinions. In the next week I plan on sitting down and doing this, post-by-post.
This thread is a lot to absorb and it seems to have gone on a tangent now and moderators might consider splitting it into two threads ;
your topic and clove99's question.  
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Well, demons were created as angels but fell, they are important too!
The Jewish perspective is that angels did not fall. Angels are obedient to Godhead and continue to be loving. Samael for example , serves Godhead in Hell obediently. Demons are the spirits of humans. They are the criminal ghosts confined to lower planes also known as negatively earthbound spirits.
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I find it very difficult to find any intelligent discussion of the Goetia or serious workings with demons. The closest I have come to witnessing calm, interesting discussions of this type was when I was skimming old posts in some alt.magick groups. The few other forums I have discovered which mention the Goetia are either short on details, discussions which quickly turn into fighting matches,
I agree . Each metaphysical or magical forum has its own bent . What cannot be broached without derision on one forum can be seriously discussed upon another though. Occult Corpus for example  has a very good Ceremonial Magick Forum concerning Goetia because there are magician members that post there whom are experienced with Goetic forms and whom are genuninely interested in sharing and learning with respect for each other.

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I'm beginning to wonder, based on my experiences, if Goetic studies lead to such a success the useful information is blacked out on purpose.
I do not believe that this is the case. The Goetic forms are like the human having an angelic, demonic and human aspect but are unlike humans in that they have an avataric aspect. They are cosmic teaching spirits.  

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Considering the relationship of many of the notable occultists of old and their interest in math, medicine, and study of the nature and workings of the world in general, some curious world events (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Paperclip) lead me to consider the possibility of goetic studies continuing at higher levels than your average armchair evoker.
The reference to the ops paperclip eludes me. Please explain. As for having great minds turned to the occult , yes historically this has been so. Isaac Newton is a prime example.
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In addition to the "Environmental observations" I listed above, I do receive odd but not disturbing feelings of being lightly "touched" sometimes, sometimes like a point of a pencil but soft not hard moving across my skin. I had never felt anything like this prior to my experience with the Goetia, at first I dismissed it as nerves.
Clairsentience will generally begin as part of a predictable continuum of metaphysical senses and often occurs with physical feelings of spirit presence and confirmation or negation signs from spirit relatives, guides and higher self /guardian angel.
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To add to the "Approach" section, I have noticed very recently, as in the past few weeks, in addition to placing the demon's sigil beneath my pillow at night before sleep, I have sometimes chosen instead to place it directly against my back near the base of my neck, for some reason it begins to feel very warm, tingly, and provides an almost erotic rush. My mind often blanks as I meditate on the sigil in my mind and drift off to sleep. What is the effect, symbolic or realised, to applying the sigil to this area for large amounts of time? Perhaps a psychological effect of closeness with my mind making up these sensations? I could dismiss it as such just as with the sensations on skin and nerves mentioned above.
The sigil is a tool , unnecessary for the magician who has developed the magical voice to evoke but useful to those who have not developed this yet. Placing it at the back of the neck suggests submissiveness to present a neck to another ie to bow before the guillotine or the axe of the executioner may provoke a pardon, it suggests acquiesence.
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In all previous experiences with other religions and deities or spirits, I've never received such "proof", if you will, of visualized external and bodily phenomena
.
The sigil would not provide proof that a Goetic form had arrived or that some spirit was present. Clairsentience typically manifests before clairvoyance which manifests before clairaudience which manifests before the magical voice for evocation.
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@bym:
"Greetings Leechmob!
Well....why ask for suggestions if you already know it all? No offense, please. You are in serious danger"
Bym ? you mean the deceased administrator of , may his soul ascend with peace ,Sacred Magick Forums? He is/was a knowledgable magician. You could take a page from his book and heed his advice.  
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If one believes some or all of the demons from the Goetia are fallen angels, are they not justified in their falling away from such a creature?
There are no fallen angels.
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Are demons and Satan facing the blame for what god's angels may be doing on behalf of god only to be exorcised in the name of god?
This is convoluted rhetoric based upon incorrect dogma. Satan is a word meaning the accuser. Christ in the NT says he is a satan and in other instances the word satan is used " are you being a satan to me? It meant the prosecutor the one who judged and pointed out the wickedness of another and morphed into a belief of a red horned man with a pitchfork which is equally presumptious and false. Perhaps the earliest mention of the red man in a suit is as an angel to the deceased children spirits in Japan. He saves them from demons carrying a red pitchfork and he is red faced . Myths are like that they move from culture to culture. Equally confounding is the reincarnation of an avatar from one culture to the next.
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When you look at it this way, how can the fallen angels be the ones in the wrong here? How can they be the evil ones?
They do not exist. Angels are part of the dogma and tradition of Hinduism, Buddhism, Judaism, Christianity and Islam et cetera only Christians believed that Hell was full of fallen angels. Humans fall and become demons. Angels ascend. Satan is a total myth that never existed that name meant accuser and through ignorance became the name of a ficticious "Head" demon  . Adam and Eve never existed either those words meant man and woman and became proper names through ignorance.
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Should he (God )not be the one sent to an eternal lake of fire?
Should the loving parent of an adolescent who baked his brains with drugs taken by his own choosing be imprisoned when their son murders and maims. Of course not.
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Why would a loving god create animals to be killed in his name which viciously hunt each other down and eat each other, and some of his creatures which parade animal skins as trophies and mindlessly devour their meat without more thought than it takes to squeeze a ketchup bottle?
If you want to debate theology study it first. Read the historic context of ancient civilizations . Read the myths of Sumer and the sacred texts of diverse ancient cultures before you attempt to debate theology. The God of the Old Testament was the God of some ignorant chauvinistic warmonging nomads who slept with camels in the desert in tents. They divorced the Goddess , they demonised their own God's names in adjacent tribes. They slit the throats of priests of neighbouring semitic tribes in betrayal into a river ceremoniously. They were warlike barbarians who invented a God of power , revenge , wrath , fury and war. When they became a more civilized agraian culture they followed a prince of peace instead. But when he tried to restore the temple they would not have it and continued in their subjugation of the female gender.
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We could also compare the fallen angels to other gods of the past, including the ones of more primal religions whether they are similar to or in reality the gods themselves or different faces of them, or whether it's worse to approach a fallen angel with devotion rather than a primal god of old, but again I'm trying to make a comparison here within the realm of the religion(s) these spirits are claimed to originate from.
The Elohim are avataric lines which reincarnate across diverse cultures as both genders teaching the path of forgiveness , love and ascension.
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@Imperial Arts:"Can you describe some of the things you have gained from the spirit, apart from communication with it?"
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Deep insight into future events, often showing them exactly as they are to and eventually happen within days or weeks usually sooner than later, events appearing sooner are closer, events appearing later appear farther away (if the dreams do not appear exactly as they occur, they are shrouded in symbolism which is impressive as the ordinary joe would likely dismiss fanciful dreams for fantasy and nothing more, sometimes portions of the symbolic dreams I have to work out but it never requires too much effort as the demon is quite brilliant in the use of symbolism), warnings of events to happen in the next day or days ahead, revealing answers in dreams in response to direct questions asked when I was awake, healing any cold, fever, flu within hours without requiring medication
The Goetic are not demons per se. They are truly tetrapolar and humans are made in their image. Elohim are the Goetic forms ; angel, demon, human spirit and avataric spirit. They punish and frighten as a demon but they heal and inspire as an angel. They teach as a cosmic teaching avataric spirit .
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One odd event which I'm not sure how to interpret occurred, I had a dream which involved objects which would later injure me through an accident the next day, leaving a lasting scar on me. In another dream later I was shown this wound with worm shaped bright energy shooting through it, and was told something about this being where power originated. Anyone able to shed light on this would be helpful, the only possible thing I could see this event as was forewarning or a mark of some sort being imprinted on purpose. When I think about it, in the beginning there were between three to five small accidents where I would receive a cut enough to bleed slightly, or experience random nosebleeds I had never had before. The scar and the dreams before and after stump me as to the why and what for.I have noticed other odd events pointing to the demon in my waking life, too numerous to add here in any short amount of time. One interesting note: others can smell the same scent as I have noticed, the sweet, musky odor which comes and goes. This is funny, I always read about angels giving off a sweet scent when they are around to a certain degree, and that demons always gave off a terrible odor. Thoughts?

That is correct but since you seem to imply that you have not developed clairvoyance and clairaudience perhaps your clairgustience is not developed and you are having delusions. It is something to consider. If you truly smell demons then you will not mistake their presence which smells like rotting garbage, maggots on rotten meat, rotten eggs, cat urine in a filthy litter tray,decaying flesh, spilt blood, and other fun smells.
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@Imperial Arts:"If you were to make a "long-term" pact with this spirit, what sort of advantages and securities would you want that to include?"
I would never enter into a contract with a demon. When the Goetic spirits appear to the magician without summoning , respect is expected . As the magician learns the lesson the demon appearance morphs into an angelic form and finally into a Godform.
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Code: [Select]
[b]@Imperial Arts:"Do you really want to have this demon as your god, or is this activity just a way to arrange for assistance from a spirit you believe to be powerful?"[/b]
That is too wrong for words. A demon is not a God . Elohim are Godhead but do not demand worship instead they teach to love each other and worship the divine never incarnate source .
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Satan offering Jesus the world for a bended knee, Buddha and Mara, etc.
This is from the NT and it is a prevarication of the truth. Demons might have tempted Christ but not THE satan because he doesn't exist. Christians made him up by misconstruing Jewish sacred texts.
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If you choose to believe in a heaven or hell, those who would go to heaven would spend eternity worshipping and glorifying god, singing like the angels and such, right? Lots of people see heaven as a place where they can have all they want, but scripture says otherwise, like the angels, it'll be about worship. Any rational individual will see that as clearly "serving" the creature, god, whatever you wish to call him, of that particular religion's heaven. What's the difference?
Through serving others with love , the spirit becomes immortal. Service in love for humanity is power. The magician who exorcises, heals, shamynistically aids and teaches and shares for free , ascends. This is evident in the acquisition of siddhi powers and of an increased vibration. But slavery is debt and foolishness.

Spirits in the afterlife participate in a variety of activities including but not limited to ;
*examination of lessons failed and passed upon the last and previous incarnations
*lessons with live projectors and spirit teachers
*exploration of the afterlife realms
*experimenting with the afterlife powers
*visiting Earth
*watching over their deceased family and friends on Earth
*inspiring the live progeny
*providing hope to live progeny
*constructing future incarnations
*learning to love and forgive self and others
*ascension
*healing and rescuing lost souls especially progeny and past life demons
I have not seen throngs of spirits in the afterlife spending time in idle worship. Magicians can develop themselves to tour heaven and hels and all of the afterlife realms.

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1. In my first post, I mentioned some disturbances in the environment, are these experiences or some of them to a certain degree experiences you have enjoyed as well as an indication of a presence?
I work as an exorcist and as a medium as well as a student of Hermetic Magick. The symptoms you describe are similar to what would be expected with human ghosts/apparitions.Conversely, demons cause deep burning sensations like a whip has cut the skin and salt has been placed in the wound.
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In particular, are vague signs of movement and heat vapor a sign of manifestation or simply an indication of a force being present?
These could be imagination or spirit phenomena. These are very general.
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Are there any notable signs you have experienced which solidify the reality of a particular entity being present?
Yes angels make the magician feel happy and lifted in vibration , they are easier to see and hear . They offer attunements, healing and lessons without cost. They often appear with wings and have a bright luminous auric energy. They speak in any language with authority and articulately. Their colours are jewel toned . They have the ability to enter any realm, dimension or plane.

Demons are often beastlike in appearance wearing horns , spikes and may be naked and missing genitalia. They appear next to or behind their host victim attached to them by a cord from which they feed parasitically. Typical locations of such cords are ;
heart, groin, hand, back of neck , and wing space. They are sneaky. They hide. Their colours are dull , muted , muddy and obscure . They exist in mouldy dark shadowy spaces. Being around them makes one anxious, angry , afraid , uncharacteristically  violent ,abusive and secretive.

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Are many signs unique to each spirit or is there a common phenomena to them all?
As above; demons have different appearances, sounds and behaviour then angels. Some demons only suck , these are mosquitoes. These come to the bedside and remove life force from the heart of their prey. Mosquitoes take up residence as grandparent figures to newborns whom they project to at night and suck. The children get night terrors and mediums have mistaken these intruders to be nice grandparent spirits visiting and protecting the infants.

Some initially appear sexy but they stink putridly. They smell like rotten eggs or foul maggoted meats. They often can appear human from the waist up but have clawed hands and feet , a tail and flat hairy pancake breasts. They may offer sexual gratification which can be exhilerating but they soon bring the whole tribe of demons and the magician is bitten painfully all over the body each night and sees them crawling on the ceiling looking hideous waiting for them to slumber. These are incubi and succubi. They look like aged diseased lion-humanoids.Lions often take up residence in the home of pedophiles.

Some have no teeth or genitalia and cannot talk. They have huge pectoral muscles and appear like chocolate coloured men with bat wings and a bear to rat face and horns. They provide the spirit of an old goat or camel for a sexual partner and dress it up like a human rather convincingly. They suck their host dry and these hosts often end up violent and in prison or they suicide.  Bats take up residence in the home of incessant porn wankers and those who astrally and physically rape. Masturbation is not wrong or evil but obsession over it is a common form of demonic attachment.These bat demons attach cords to the wrists and groin and the back of the neck.

Diverse forms exist bats and lions are very common.Rats,Bulls, Wolves and Shark faced demons are also commonplace.

There are also angelic totemic animals too. Magicians have historically reported seeing glorious lion, dragon, eagle, elephant, wolf et cetera angels which are healthy , jeweltoned in colour and wise without a horrific smell or decaying form. These angels that appear as animal totems can morph into a human appearance.
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2. Have you ever had another entity other than the one you called show up? If so, how did you deal with said entity?
Yes the Goetic spirits will attend the Kaballahistic magician in their season providing a set curriculum. They come unannounced and uninvited and enter the sacred chamber or the bedroom without constraint as part of the Qlippothic lessons of the Kaballahistic magician.
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3. What method do you use to confirm the entity is the one you called?
Feel Clairsentiently ; Do they feel like a hug from a long lost friend or do you feel like you have been burnt and are in pain in their presence?
.........Angel...................................Demon
Look clairvoyantly;
Are they jewel toned and healthy
......................................or muddy and mishapen
Listen clairaudiently;
Do they speak of truth, wisdom, love, forgiveness and peace
.....................................do they hiss, growl, threaten,tempt,lie, whine,nag and coerce ?
Smell clairgustiently;
Do they smell like fresh fruit and flowers
.....................................or like maggoted meat or rotten eggs?
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4...In each evocation, does the spirit come forth quickly, or do you feel there is some time where it lingers about in whatever manner of perceptible phenomena and observes your state before manifesting?
As an exorcist, victim hosts have often complained that they see demons hiding on the ceiling in the corners waiting to attack them, or they are surprised coming around a dark corner, or they see them rising half up out of the floor like shadow people ,or they see it beginning to manifest in a pile of rubbish or dirty clothes.

When you approach the home of the victim, you can see that the house sticks out on the street. A demon inflicted home has dead lawn, dead trees, tires on the front lawn and broken rusty trash and cars . The house seems dilapidated and in need of care. Weeds are very high and the home may seem uninhabited by its rough appearance.
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5. Based on what I have written so far, do you feel it wise I continue with an evocation, an evocation whereby I use no traditional approach, but call forth the demon using his sigil, name, and office through a personalized ritual? Or, should I continue with the current Approach with this demon and allow him to manifest if he so desires outside my volition?
I would suggest evoking angels in the Qaballahistic cross ie the rituals of the pentagram and the angels in the Grimoire of Armadel, instead.
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6. If no license to depart is given, what is the best way to end the evocation, since my Approach would be one of worship rather than of constraint? In short, the room I so honor this demon in could be considered a small chapel, I don't mind at all should his presence remain, as I feel to some degree it always does as I don't banish.
If you choose not to banish then the demon will attach itself to you and follow you everywhere so forget the small chapel. They will begin with negative influence, followed by negative attachment , followed by partial and then full possession. Those with full possession become sleep deprived mentally insane substance abusers seeking solace through suicide. Along the way they often threaten or cause violence to their family and past friends.
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7. When calling on the entity do you use their name as given with English pronunciation, Latin, or Hebrew? In which language do you write their name?
The sacred languages are are best when evocation is done by the magician who can not call with their magical voice centre yet. Sacred languages include ; Sanskrit,Hebrew, Aramaic, Greek,Latin, and some others are debateable Google this or search Wikipedia.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sacred_language
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8. Evocation aside, when I notice sweet smells or obvious visual phenomena as mentioned above, is this the spirit trying to get my attention and something I should never ignore but always respond to? Or is it merely the spirit in the vicinity for whatever reason?
Sweet smells are often human spirits appearing with the perfume or cologne or smell of their lives to be identified.Angels may have no smell or smell like rain in the wind or lightning. But demons will smell putrid. If you are smelling clairgustiently then you should be able to develop your clairvoyance sufficiently to view them at this point. A magician who can not feel, see, hear, smell, call and fly magically should not be tempted to evoke any spirits. They could practice sacred prayer rituals and rituals of the pentagram to begin evocation of archangels without risk.
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9. Any other tips, advice, or musings?
Yes, read IIH as a scaffolding instead and study Kaballah .
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If millions of people can approach the jealous and vicious blood lusting god of the Bible without protections,
This is offensive. Yahweh was construed to be jealous and vindictive by a barbaric people. As they advanced so did their perception of God. Godhead is all loving and all forgiving.
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Who liberated man from "the garden"?
Actually that myth is also contrived. The original creation myth that was derived from was Gilgamesh. This had the man falling from Grace and the hero was the Goddess who died trying to save humanity from her father Sin the moon and from her sister the Queen of Hell who tormented spirits after death. Inanna went to Hell and was killed by her sister and hung upon a peg for 3 days until she was resurrected with the apple of life and the water of life. Goddess was not a jealous Goddess. God was not either. Humans contrive Godhead according to their own base motives.

But go to Kether or Samadhi and you will experience unconditional love and peace you will not experience a single jealous angry male God.
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If gaining knowledge is so evil to this god, as it must be, as when man strove for unification (Tower of Babel) and knowledge (Eden's fruit) he was punished.
The Tree of Life is planted on the spine of every human, irregardless of culture or gender. All humans are made in the image of their creator. The reason to exist is to learn to become more loving more forgiving and transcend death to become an immortal teaching spirit through the Tree of Life. The Jewish Kabballah is a great place to start learning about this.

Given that the Tree is disseminated across this planet and the next ones too, it is impossible that Godhead forbade humans from pistis or sophia or henios.

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Perhaps the god fearing magician should not call upon him when seeking the wisdom of the demons?
So don't see him. Go straight to the source . Seek to know yourself first and then learn to feel, see, hear, call and fly magically.You could consult angels and the Great Goddess instead , since you seem to hold unrepressed anger against the All Father.

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According to the Bible such sorcery and council is forbidden to begin with. If he is not god fearing, he is using the god of the Bible, under whatever guise he leads himself to believe (inner light, etc. but he still reads from the Bible and calls upon this other god, in some texts), to enter into communication with demons. Would this not incur the wrath of said deity?
The term Bible means a collection or library of books . These books are written by diverse authors with different perspectives across many centuries. Some authors spoke with anger in corruption. Dreams, visions, prophecies , ascension and seeking reunion with Godhead and communion with saints and angels are not forbidden. And these are magick. But there are prejudices and fears in the Bible too. Discern and find the golden truths. Do not paint the entire Bible with the same paint brush . That is a false methodology.
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The question is, can you carve out these "divine" entities from the religion and use them apart from their origins?
Let me get this straight you propose to be enslaved by a demon but to despise and use angels?
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Instead, I suggest the entities which do appear are demons, appearing as they may, as angels of light as the Bible itself clearly states.

The Bible most certainly does NOT "clearly state this." If the magician has developed their siddhi powers by energy exercises, kundalini events, daily meditation and projection et cetera than they will know how to distinguish an angel vs a demon.
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feel free to dismiss it as wacky deluded nonsense from a nutter obviously deluded by the demon he worships.
Ok but I would rather offer you a free clairvoyant reading to let you know what your "special demon God " smells like, looks like and if they are an ordinary human manifested demon or a Goetic spirit. PM me if you would like to meet on Skype.
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Could the 'mark' I mentioned in my previous post have been after an unconscious pact was agreed to in my dreams? Or perhaps an agreement was implied by my acts of obvious worship? What would this mark be, just a placement by the entity with a substance unseen by man but real to the entity? Would it have any power over us or for us? If this 'mark' was nothing of the sort, would it have any other meaning?
Physical scars , mole like marks et cetera  often appear at the insertion wound of a demon's cord. Robert Bruce writes about this in Astral Dynamics.





Title: Re: Demon Worship
Post by: clove99 on February 23, 2011, 01:09:34 AM
I am already stumped with creating a sigil (hahhaha).  I am not supposed to reveal my actual intent (like ya'll don't know), but for the sake of example, let me go back to the booty call.

If I wanted that "guy" to pursue personal communication, a romantic relationship, passionate sex, and commitment with me, that wouldn't be a very condensed will in terms of creating a sigil, now would it?  Or, do I do multiple individuals for the multiple qualities or acts I seek to be performed by a person?  That would end up being a lot of sigils, wouldn't it?  What's getting my mind stuck here is being trained in ceremonial magick and describing my will in such detail that it would take a full page or more in order to include specific intentions.  I learned that being specific is crucial in case you get what you asked for.  Now, with sigilia (I just discovered that this is the plural of sigil), your will is supposed to be written in short form...VERY short form.  How do I specify an all-encompassing intent this way?  Is it possible?

Who was it that recommended the use of sigilia...Awakened?  Thank you.  Other than the wording of my intent, the only other challenge is when to destroy the sigil and how to get busy/distracted and forget about it.  That has always been difficult for me...letting it go.  I suppose I could move on to another will.
Title: Re: Demon Worship
Post by: clove99 on February 23, 2011, 01:13:36 AM
You're right, Aunt Claire.  I wasn't sure how long I could get away with it, but thought that it could serve as an example of magickal evolution to someone else who enters intent on summoning demons and thinks that all other options have been exhausted.  I'll start looking for another topic related more specifically to sigilia (funky word) and appreciate most of the feedback I received here.  Thanks.
Title: Re: Demon Worship
Post by: clove99 on February 23, 2011, 01:22:57 AM
Wait.  Before I go...(hahahaha) and since there isn't much else on sigilia (hmmm, that word) on Veritas Society (I checked), some have said that while sigilia definitely work, their effects are temporary.  Huh?  Say what?  How can temporary effects be useful?  Maybe I should go back to summoning demons.
Title: Re: Demon Worship
Post by: Akenu on February 23, 2011, 01:30:21 AM
@clove99: Few points from an experienced sigil creator:
1) Just some of the effects are temporary depending on many factors (same with demons)
2) Maximum waiting time for sigil to take effect is about 6 up to 9 months, but Frater V D taught me that you can shorten this limit by specifying it during a sigil creation, like:
-My will is that the hot girl will fall in love with me in a week
3) Process of sigil Magick is very important, it looks like this
i) stating your intention
ii) creating sigil
iii) charging sigil with created mantra, death posture, orgasm, etc
iv) releasing the sigil (VERY IMPORTANT)

Releasing sigil consists of totally forgetting about the sigil. Most simple way is to hide it or burn it and then LAUGH as much as you can (Good laugh is also a great exorcism :) ).

Releasing of the sigil is also the hardest part, if you don't agree with me then don't think about monkey for 4 days...
Title: Re: Demon Worship
Post by: Aunt Clair on February 23, 2011, 02:28:45 AM
...the pariticular demon I have been attempting to invoke is Dantalian, one of the 72 Goetic, which you say is preferred.  So, I needn't worry about the "joke" part as long as I am sticking with the Goetia, right?
The Goetic are severe and have been known to punish those dabblers who evoke them with evil intentions or to win a prize.

By joke I mean that the common demon has nothing to offer but pain and descension. The Goetic are powerful and do not obey human magicians or become enslaved by them. They are the ones in control.

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Capable magician?  You saw my earlier post, a page or two ago, regarding the 45 year old magician who never got anywhere with spriitual satanism and then began using the Key of Solomon and gained contact?  
That does not surprise because Satan doesn't exist. But the Key of Solomon is not a satanic text. It is a grimoire of Goetic forms which appear in the demonic aspect with nightmares and horrors and tests. These become angelic in appearance when magicians pass the tests which are about life and truth and love and forgiveness and not about 'power' to take from others or harm others.
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 So, while I can appreciate that summoning is not about all of the dogma, I feel there has to be something about that Key.
It is a decent manual of the common appearance of some Goetic forms. Evocation of these forms is not prudent , practical or necessary. They will come to the magician when the magician is ready for their lessons and the magician will not escape them until the lessons and tests they pose are passed.
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And, for those, like myself, who have not achieved a state of being an accomplished magician, how do we find a mage for assistance, especially when we are in immediate need?
The Goetic will supply truths and wisdoms to those they find worthy and ready. They will not endure being trifled with and being asked for money, power, sex and good looks .

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Aunt Claire, you brought up angels, but it's my understanding and belief as well, because it makes sense to me, that angels do not interfere with another's will, which is exactly what I am looking to accomplish and soon.
Humans have freewill but angels do interfere with it. Angels seek to protect the innocent from the violent to inspire humans to a higher path and a more virtuous loving manner. Angels also clip the wings of evil magicians.They bind and blind evil magicians. Humans have a chance to change and then they lose their magick. So many that are exorcised are dabblers who are no longer able to see or fly magically. But this is a temporary measure which can be reversed when th human lifts their game and ascends. Archangel Michael banishes humans from astral realms where they seek to prey and rape innocents projecting in a demon for, while still alive.
Title: Re: Demon Worship
Post by: Wren on February 23, 2011, 02:03:31 PM
This is totally off topic, but, in the Epic of Gilgamesh Gilgamesh recounts the epithets and stories of Ishtar, and she seems like quite the shallow one. She falls head over heels in love and then punishes her lover after she gets bored. That was the refusal of Ishtar, which I believe is before the gods send the bull of heaven to punish Gilgamesh and Enkidu.
Title: Re: Demon Worship
Post by: Aunt Clair on February 25, 2011, 07:30:34 PM
This is totally off topic, but, in the Epic of Gilgamesh Gilgamesh recounts the epithets and stories of Ishtar, and she seems like quite the shallow one. She falls head over heels in love and then punishes her lover after she gets bored. That was the refusal of Ishtar, which I believe is before the gods send the bull of heaven to punish Gilgamesh and Enkidu.

There are many Goddess forms in the epic of Gilgamesh which has a few different versions and has been dated crediby as early as 1750 BC with other sources citing 2500 BC.Whereas Genesis is dated credibly at 150 BC but many argue earlier with a lot of consensus around 700 BC . In any case , that makes Gilgamesh the source .

Inanna is a promiscuous figure that seduces Gilgamesh to cut down the Tree of Life and make a bed and throne for her. He weeps when he sees he has killed the dragon which was a protector of the Birds of Paradise, the Tree and a community of maidens. Then Gilgamesh spurns Inanna and makes her very angry. The Gods create a male lover and wrestler to distract him from killing humans because Gilgamesh is a giant and hugely strong.

Lilith is the virgin nymph who runs away to live as a hermit higher on the mountain in the wilderness.

Inanna is promiscuous and greedy and a thief but she is not without virtue . She makes her father, the moon God Sin, drunk to steal the Me gifts from him . She breaks into Hell on the pretense of going to the funeral of her brother in law the bull of heaven killed by Enkidu and Gilgamesh. But she is really there to stop her evil sister who enjoys her torture of human spirits.

Inanna is killed by her sister's accusations that she is a liar and there for other intentions, by the screams of judgement of the deceased. inanna is hung on a hook for 3 days before resurrection by the apple and water of life delivered to Hell by servants of her father who made a human man and woman from the dirty clay beneath his fingernails.

Then she gives the good Me gifts to the humans. Her father , Sin, gave the Me like a cosmic grab bag some gifts were wondrous others horrific. Inanna's  sacrifice to help humans  is echoed in many myths ie Prometheus and Odin . And it prophesises the Passion of Christ .

These myths predate Judaism and Christianity and Islam. The semitic tribes adopted these myths and demonised the Goddess and created an Eve who stole the apples from the Tree of Life and was responsible for original sin.

But neither myth actually occurred. There is a Christ but there is no Adam or Eve. There is no Gilgamesh as depicted but there once was a king named that centuries before the legends emerged . These myths of Gilgamesh and Genesis are just primitive peoples methods to explain ascension, demons, angels , magick, the Tree of Life, and Kundalini.

The spine is the Tree of Life. the dragons beneath it are kundalini nadis in the perineum. The birds of paradise above it are in the crown of the magician and could be interpreted as the eyes or the halves of the brain or the spheres of the supernal realms. The lion , bull , eagle and angel are the forms of the temples.

The bull is earth. It is the bull of heaven and of Shiva . It is also the myth of the minotaur and a demonic aspect. The Bull is the body and the physical which decays.

The Eagle aka scorpion aka wolf is water it may manifest as an angelic. I have not heard of or seen a demonic eagle but I suppose for every yin there is a yang. There are however positive and negative wolves and negative scorpions. It is also the undines and merfolk and leviathans. Akashic Moon is its noble form. Water is the temple of the Soul.  

When the moon and the sun marry their child is the philosopher's stone.

The lion is fire which may manifest as an angelic or demonic totem of fire. Positive fire ascends. Negative fire descends and creates the hels. Christ is a lion of Judea. There are diverse lion angels. But the incubus and succubus are lion demons. It is also dragons and salamanders and cobras of Kundalini. Fire is the temple of the Spirit.

The human is air. The positive aspect is the angelic consciousness and the negative aspect is the fiery  demonic. It is also the faeries and sylphs . Air is temple of the Mind.

The human has  a body , mind , soul and spirit. The body decays but it builds up the light quotient of the soul which reincarnates. The mind reincarnates and may become self realised. The spirit is the "ghost" which can descend and become demon/s or ascend and become angel/s or do nothing and be a human form ghost. The vibration of the energy of the spirit at the time of manifestation dictates the form of demon or angel. These are aspects manifested by the magician at death and during magical workings. Even well meaning magicians may project as a demonic aspect and find themselves facing themselves in terror when it is only them on the other side of the mirror. And magicians may manifest angelic aspects while still alive. Christ teaches methods for this in the Pistis Sophia and other Gnostic apocrypha as well as in meditation and mystic projection.

The Divine source is the complete and sentient emanation of forgiving love.
Separation from this is the self created Hell.
The source emanates as light and sound energy
The source emanates as male and female avatars.
The source emanates as the sun and the moon.
The source emanates as earth, fire, air and water.
The source emanates as diverse cultural wisdoms which humans extrapolate into myths and esoteric truths.

Inanna seems to be the Ishtar of the Babylonian Lion Gate


Title: Re: Demon Worship
Post by: Wren on February 25, 2011, 08:18:09 PM
I think the Lawbook of Manu refers to sorcerers using eagle familiars, which would imply eagle demons, no?
Title: Re: Demon Worship
Post by: clove99 on February 26, 2011, 05:29:10 AM
Awakened, yeah I understand about the letting go of the sigil being the hardest part (monkeys...or polar bears, etc.), but isn't that to omit the "pot of water waiting to boil" syndrome?  Obsession and desperation can certainly affect the perceived timing of the outcome, but does a passing thought, opposed to obsessive thought, really hinder the efficacy of a sigil?  I see that it would be helpful to not dwell on the magickal process, questioning and doubting it incessantly, but does the occasional thought of the goal, or the sigil process really nullify results?
Title: Re: Demon Worship
Post by: Akenu on February 28, 2011, 12:40:52 AM
@clove99: I wouldn't say nullify, but affect for sure...
Common practice is to let the memory (if it appears) to fade away quickly and don't focus on it... Some Magicians are also used to recharge the sigil if it appears in their minds...
Title: Re: Demon Worship
Post by: Corcoran on February 28, 2011, 04:07:43 PM
I still haven't seen an example of where a sigil can be used to influence the will of another.  If it is MY will that such and such attorney agrees to take my case, as someone pointed out already, it is her will that needs to change, not mine.  So jump in here and explain if you can just state your will that so and so does what you want, regardless of their will.

I have been reading through this thread with interest and I can understand your impatience, clove. I am a newcomer to magick and have mostly only used sigils and a set a few trends on a radionics device.

I don't know if you believe in parallel universes or not, but could you possibly state your intention in a sigil to "align/place myself within the reality in which the attorney takes my case." Something like that. Could that help?

I have come to the belief that anything one can imagine exists (perhaps not in the reality in which one currently resides) and that it is a means of attracting it to you, by whatever means you choose.
Title: Re: Demon Worship
Post by: Steve on February 28, 2011, 05:25:05 PM
Most of your topic is completely not about the stuff I'm replying to, but I had to respond to these specific comments.

There are many Goddess forms in the epic of Gilgamesh which has a few different versions and has been dated crediby as early as 1750 BC with other sources citing 2500 BC.Whereas Genesis is dated credibly at 150 BC but many argue earlier with a lot of consensus around 700 BC . In any case , that makes Gilgamesh the source .
No, that does not make Gilgamesh necessarily a source of Genesis. Also, your dating is off: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Book_of_genesis#Text_and_composition

Text

The oldest extant manuscripts of Genesis are the twenty-four fragments found among the Dead Sea Scrolls, dating from between 150 BC and AD 70. The next oldest are the Greek Septuagint manuscripts of the Codex Sinaiticus and Vaticanus, produced by the early Christian church in the 4th century. The oldest manuscripts of the Masoretic Text, which forms the basis of Jewish worship and many Western Christian bibles, date from around AD 1000. Also worthy of note are the Samaritan and Syriac translations. Modern scholarly translations rely on all these manuscripts, attempting to find the best possible version through critical examination of the texts.

Composition

There is currently no consensus on the process by which Genesis came to be written. The documentary hypothesis (which sees Genesis the product of the editorial weaving of a number of originally independent and complete accounts of the same material), which did enjoy the status of a consensus among many Western scholars for most of the 20th century, no longer enjoys the support it once did, and rival theories have been advanced using fragmentary models (composition by an author from various "fragments") or supplementary models (an original text later expanded and edited), or combinations of these.[13] An alternative approach regards perceived difficulties in the integral text as we have it as opportunities to rise to a challenge in interpretation, and admit "interpolations" or possible mis-transmissions only when every other avenue of investigation has been exhausted.[14] It is asserted that there are many anachronisms (which must often in the absence of detailed history be a matter of interpretation) and that these point to a date of reaching its "final form" in the 1st millennium B.C.[13] and the same recent proposals attempt to place it in the 5th century when, as the argument runs, the post-Exilic Jewish community was seen as trying to adapt itself to life under the Persian empire.[15]

While the oldest PHYSICAL COPY of Genesis is only dated to about 150BC, there's no way in hell that that is when it was composed. Gilgamesh was still written prior to the earliest possible writing that Genesis could have been written at, by virtue of being part of a culture that predated the Jews, but that does NOT mean it "had to be" a source for the beliefs of whoever wrote Genesis (or for any culture that came later, for that matter).

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These myths predate Judaism and Christianity and Islam.
True.

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The semitic tribes adopted these myths and demonised the Goddess and created an Eve who stole the apples from the Tree of Life and was responsible for original sin.
Not necessarily true, and blatantly false. First off, there is no demonization of "the" goddess in Judaism. THEY WORSHIPED A FEMALE DEITY AT ONE POINT IN THEIR HISTORY (Ashtorah, by whatever spelling you want to use). They believed in MANY Gods throughout their long history, both male and female, but they were "supposed to" only worship YHWH. Their world view was pantheistic, not monotheistic or dual-theistic, so attempting to polarize their beliefs about the varied gods and goddesses into just "the god" and "the goddess" is incorrect.

Secondly, Eve was not responsible for the original sin. Not only did the doctrine of original sin not come about until the 2nd century AD as an argument, rather than a revelation, against gnosticism, but the concept of "original sin" doesn't really work either when you get down to it, though that's a much larger discussion that's preempted by the fact that (pre-catholicism) ADAM is generally credited with the original sin, rather than Eve. 1 Co. 15:22 22 For as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive. Women attempting to demonize Eve for this sin alone is a rather silly irony, don't you think?

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There is no Gilgamesh as depicted but there once was a king named that centuries before the legends emerged . These myths of Gilgamesh and Genesis are just primitive peoples methods to explain ascension, demons, angels , magick, the Tree of Life, and Kundalini.
Or they are fun stories for parents to tell their children while they have nothing better to do, and the people who come later can read into those stories everything they want to. Or they came from the same origins that we see stories coming from even today: the game of telephone combined with humanity's eternal desire to exaggerate.

~Steve
Title: Re: Demon Worship
Post by: Aunt Clair on March 02, 2011, 03:17:21 PM
Respectfully, I disagree. By the term demonization , I mean that a people determined that a deity whom they had worshipped or whom had been worshipped by nearby peoples was not a deity but a demon , instead such as Ba'el becoming the Lord of the Flies and Beelzebub instead of the supreme male God.

By the semitic tribes demonisation of the Goddess I mean that they took the myths and beliefs of other peoples and created a demon from their God and that they took Goddesses of their own and they rejected their continued worship, removed them from the altar, prohibited their worship, demonised them in cases and in others relegated them as metaphors.

1.Lilith was a virgin wood nymph who shunned the company of men and lived in a remote community of maidens as a protectress of the Tree of Life but was demonised by Semitic tribes.
By this I mean that she became called by them "the queen of demons" and the first wife of Adam and is also blamed for seducing men and leading succubi. She is contrived to be the snake in the tree or a spirit in the tree that tempted Eve.

2. I agree with you Steve that Asherah  was worshipped as a Semitic Goddess but then Elijah , for example, said to cut down her poles from the altar. She had been the wife of Yahweh but she became the wife of Ba'al instead of the mother Goddess and she was no longer the wife of Yahweh. Ba'al was demonised and so was Asherah.

For example;Child sacrifices were blamed on her though these were heinous acts of humanity wrongly attributed to the Goddess and to Baal and Jeremiah opposed her worship citing the acts of these violent men;

Jeremiah 32:35 And they built the high places of Baal that are in the valley of Ben-Hinnom, to cause their sons and their daughters to pass through the fire to Molech

Jeremiah 19:5 They have built also the high places of Baal, to burn their sons as offering to Baal"

Kings 10:26  And they brought out the pillars (massebahs) of the house of the Ba'al and burned them. And they pulled down the pillar (massebah) of the Ba'al and pulled down the house of the Ba'al and turned it into a latrine until this day.

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Here the Bible implies what modern archaeologists and anthropologists have recently discovered:  Molech and Baal represent the same pagan god. The wife of Baal is Asherah and the wife of Molech is Ashteroth. Asherah and Ashteroth represent the same fertility goddess. This demon was known to the Greeks as Aphrodite; to the Egyptians as Isis; and to the Phoenicians as Tanet.http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:hIqRPnC8YW4J:www.revisionisthistory.org/massacre.html+Asherah+demon&cd=4&hl=en&ct=clnk&client=firefox-a&source=www.google.com

Ishtar/Inanna is a Khali sort of Goddess with a bipolar nature having demonic fury but divine compassion
and I believe that she was easy for them to demonise and forget her sacrifice and love because of her promiscuity and betrayal depicted in the same myths which extol her later virtuous nature.

The Zohar is written many centuries later then Kings or Genesis. But Goddess is still part of Judaism in the Zohar. And that confounds me.

The Books of  1 & II Kings are suspected to have been written 900 to 500 BC  or 560 and 538 B.C depending on sources . And it is in these texts that we learn about Elijah asking for the Goddess to be removed from the temple and hearts .

Genesis is dated credibly at 150 BC (because of twenty-four fragments found among the Dead Sea Scrolls, dating from between 150 BC and AD 70. )but many argue earlier with a lot of consensus around 700 BC although some insist it is as old as 1400 BC.  It is in Genesis that we get the 2 versions of the Jewish myth of Adam and Eve.

The Zohar was written in the 2nd century AD according to some sources but others insist 12th century Spain having been regurgitated by an Islamic Scholar after Jews forgot it. These 2 conflicting views persist and I am not able to discern which is correct.

The Zohar opens with the Lily or the Rose depending upon translations and versions. The Zohar speaks about Shekinah , Yah and Asherah .

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Made by Yah, Shekinah the Goddess;
In the Zohar, Metatron is a manifestation of Shekhinah (I:179b), the first “offspring” of the supernal union of God's feminine and masculine ...One youth, whose measure is from the height of the world to the end of the world, emerges between her legs...

Metatron is not just the Son of Yah (G-d), but that he is "first begotten of all the creatures of G-d":

Zohar tells us that the "Son of Yah" is a figure called "Metatron" and the "Middle Pillar of the G-dhead is Metatron, Who has accomplished peace above, According to the glorious state there. "(Zohar, vol. 3. Ra'aya Mehaimna, p. 227, Amsterdam Edition)

Better is a neighbor that is near, than a brother far off. This neighbor is the Middle Pillar in the G-dhead,which is the Son of Yah. (Zohar, vol. ii, Ra'aya Mehaimna ;p. 115, Amsterdam Edition)

The Zohar calls Metatron "the Youth",and  identifies him as the angel that led the people of Israel through the wilderness after their exodus from Egypt,Moreover the Zohar teaches that Metatron is not just the Son of Yah, but that he is "first begotten of all the creatures of Elohim"

Although it does echo Deuteronomy and speak about rejecting Asherah poles.
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V2 Beresheet B 49. "Baal and Asherah"These two words refer to two aspects of idol worship. Idol Worshipping refers not only to bowing down before statues and icons. Idol worshipping includes any material possession or external situation that controls our emotions and behavior or that motivates us in any way. When any of these influences determine our degree of contentment and joy in life, then we have surrendered control and severed our connection to the Light, the true source of all fulfillment. Often, our negative tendencies lead us to become worshippers of wealth, or disciples of our own egos.
210. It is written: "You shall not plant an asherah (grove; also, the name of a goddess) of any kind of tree at the altar of Hashem your Elohim which (Heb., asher) you shall make" (Devarim 16:21). ARE WE TO UNDERSTAND FROM THE WORDS "at the altar" THAT ONLY BESIDE AN ALTAR IT IS NOT PERMITTED TO PLANT A GROVE? If so, then who permitted planting a grove anywhere else, or above an altar? But, as we have explained, Asher is the name of the husband and his wife is called after him, Asherah. Thus, the words "all the vessels made for the Baal and Asherah" (II Melachim 23:4) INDICATE THE SIDE OPPOSING ZEIR ANPIN AND THE NUKVA OF THE HOLINESS; THE SIDE WHERE BAAL (LIT. HUSBAND) IS AGAINST ZEIR ANPIN, AND ASHERAH IS AGAINST THE NUKVA. Hence, WE UNDERSTAND THE QUESTION OF WHY it says, "You shall not plant an Asherah at the altar of Hashem your Elohim." IN THE WORDS, "AT THE ALTAR," "AT" IS SYNONYMOUS WITH "INSTEAD OF." THE VERSE MEANS "YOU SHALL NOT PLANT AN ASHERAH" OF IDOLATRY in the place of Hashem your Elohim because the altar of Hashem is situated upon it, THAT IS, ABOUT TO ANNUL THE KLIPAH OF ASHERAH, AS WAS SAID BEFORE. Thus, do not plant an other Asherah OF IDOLATRY against the Altar.

213. "And Hashem Elohim built." Here also, IN BUILDING OF THE RIB, the full name is used, AS IT WAS USED IN "AND HASHEM ELOHIM MADE MAN." Because her father and mother corrected her before the woman came to her husband's home, ZEIR ANPIN, HENCE A FULL NAME IS MENTIONED, AS HASHEM IS ABA AND ELOHIM IS IMA."The rib" is described in the verse, "I am Black and Comely, daughters of Jerusalem" (Shir Hashirim 1:5), MEANING IT WAS FASHIONED AFTER THE SECRET OF the mirror that does not shine. Later, her father and mother correct her, so as to bring peace between husband and wife. THIS IS WHAT IS MEANT BY, "HE BROUGHT HER TO ADAM."
 
 
Please forgive the Capitals. This text was copied and pasted in that manner and I do not mean to imply shouting.

 But 'Rashbi' has given us conflicting views concerning the Goddess speaking about her as
*not worthy of having her poles erected in the temple
*like a qlippothic broken vessel
*lower than the male God
*Malkuth the lower Shekinah
*the dwelling place of God on Earth
*mother of the first elohim
*real and exalted
*Binah the higher Shekinah
*the couch of Solomon
*the couch of Jacob/Israel (Malkut = Shekinah supports/raises up Tifaret=Jacob/Israel)
*the mother of creation
*the Queen of Heaven

At least I find it confounding. Everything I have read said that Yahweh was the male God from the 7th century BC when monotheism became the norm for Jews. So I did not expect to find such beautiful references to a Semitic Goddess 900 years later in the Zohar. And I respectfully ask your perspective on that, Steve et al.

So, I plan to read through the Zohar, again this time to try to understand the convoluted depiction of the Goddess within its text.
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THE HOLY SHEKINAH SPIRIT~Among the Hebrews one of the traditional names of God is the Shekinah, and, interestingly, it is a feminine gender noun. Many Hebrews saw her as the mother or feminine aspect of God. The early scribes (later called rabbis) added Shekinah in biblical verses where the verb shakhan is used in relation to God. Shakhan literally means "to dwell" or "to live with", or even "to pitch one's tent." The Shekinah means the God-Who-Dwells-Within, and developed primarily after the destruction of the Temple of Solomon in 587 BCE, especially as it proffered hope to a people lost in bitter exile. To console an Israel in Diaspora, the comforting, forgiving and loyal presence of the Shekinah emerged. In the Talmud it says: "They were exiled to Babylon, the Shekinah with them. They were exiled to Egypt, the Shekinah with them." And, it says in Lamentations 1, 5, "Her children are gone into captivity," and immediately after (1,6), "From Zion her splendour is departed." (Note the use of "her" for God and "splendour" is also one of the ways to describe the Shekinah). Other terms referring to the Shekinah are "the glory" and "radiance", and she was the cloud by day and pillar of fire by night that led the Israelites through the Sinai wilderness. She is also closely related to the Sophia tradition in the Hebrew Bible (the Old Testament) in Proverbs and other books. Sophia (a Greek feminine noun) is the Wisdom aspect of God. As a Wisdom Teacher Jesus was very closely related to the Sophia Tradition.

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Stone inscriptions show that Israelites may once have worshipped Asherah, a goddess of love and fertility known as "She Who Walks on the Sea," as the female counterpart to the Israelite god we call Adonai. References in Jeremiah 7:18 and 44:17 indicates that Israelite women worshipped the "queen of heaven" by baking cakes-this queen may have been Asherah. In general, the stamping out of Asherah-worship was one of the main concerns of the pure monotheists who established themselves as normative in the days of King Josiah and who are responsible for the composition, according to scholars, of much of the Torah. From those radical monotheists, Judaism evolved. We would expect, then, that all later Jewish references to Asherah would be negative, as indeed most of them are...

Yet the Zohar, steeped in multiple personalized, sexualized, gendered images of the deity, chooses to read this passage in a radically different way. The Zohar writers do not equate Asherah with Lilith or another demonic figure, which would be an easy theological move. Instead, they reread the verse. It is not, they say, that the Torah wants to tell us not to plant an asherah by the altar because it is an idolatrous object. If the Torah had wanted to tell us that, it simply would have said: "Do not plant an asherah anywhere." Rather, the Torah wants to tell us that Asherah is a name for the Shekhinah, the feminine Divine presence, already at the altar. An extra Asherah image would be redundant.

The Zohar proves this assertion by connecting the name Asherah to the word asher. Ordinarily, this word simply means the word "which." However, in Zohar-speak, many common Hebrew prepositions like asher and et are regarded as names for God. In this case, the Zohar reads Asher as a name for masculine divinity. The Zohar redefines the word Asherah as the feminine form of Asher: the Spouse of Asher, the Spouse of God. The verse now means, in the Zohar's reading, that we must not plant an asherah by the altar because Asherah already resides in the altar in the form of the Shekhinah. We do not need a pillar to remind us of Her.

The Zohar does not choose to say that the goddess Asherah is evil or false and that worshipping her is a theological mistake. Rather, it says that the theological mistake would be to assume that Asherah (the tree) is separate from Shekhinah (the altar), when in fact they are one. The Zohar seems to be saying is that the object used to worship (i.e. the altar) God must be single rather than multiple, just as all the faces of the feminine and masculine Divine are ultimately unified.

The Zohar then quotes a passage related to the biblical queen Jezebel's worship of other gods, and informs us that the priests of Baal and Asherah (male and female deities) are worshippers of the sun and moon. The sun and moon, the Zohar goes on, are really Tiferet and Malkhut, the Holy One (male divinity) and the Shekhinah (female divinity). Baal and Asherah worshippers, the very people whom the Torah rejects as the worst of pagans, are actually worshippers of the (legitimate) masculine and feminine Divine. The Zohar appears to be saying that pagans and Jews are worshipping the same aspects of divinity by different names.
 http://www.zeek.net/spirit_04072.shtml

Quote
Jill Hammer~An Altar of Earth: Reflections on Jews, Goddesses and the Zohar, p.2
"I want not to demonize goddess-imagery while thunder-god imagery rolls through the Hebrew Bible without comment or controversy. In short, I want not to be afraid of goddesses. "
"all that honored her despise her"
(Lam. 1:8)

http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:Uim6uTu1xk4J:www.scribd.com/doc/40031604/24/The-Shekinah+Zohar:+Shekinah&cd=6&hl=en&ct=clnk&client=firefox-a&source=www.google.com

http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:_MJFGRWdhJ4J:www.nvcc.edu/home/lshulman/rel232/resource/sefirot.htm+Zohar:+Shekinah&cd=5&hl=en&ct=clnk&client=firefox-a&source=www.google.com

http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:TbfzUeL4Ho0J:www.yashanet.com/studies/revstudy/rev4e.htm+Zohar:+Shekinah&cd=2&hl=en&ct=clnk&client=firefox-a&source=www.google.com

Title: Re: Demon Worship
Post by: Steve on March 02, 2011, 04:46:07 PM
(As with your quote in your previous post, any time I am using caps it is for emphasis, not shouting)

How various tribes viewed various spiritual entities changed a lot from place to place and time to time, but I disagree with your attempt at illustrating the semitic tribes as generally demonizing all female deities.

As for who or what "lilith" was, that is a huge discussion and does not easily boil down to "she was this and that", as different ancient texts (including the ones that predate the jews) used the word to denote different things, anything from birds to spirits. There's a hell of a lot more rumours and modernized romanticism of lilith than what the ancients actually said about it.

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She had been the wife of Yahweh but she became the wife of Ba'al instead of the mother Goddess and she was no longer the wife of Yahweh. Ba'al was demonised and so was Asherah.
I don't recall her ever being the wife of Ba'al, and never was she the wife of YHWH; that seems more a later folklore that has no source in ancient writings ([EDIT] I just got to the end of your post, where you quote the zohar as saying she was the wife of whoever. I disagree with the Zohar, especially considering its dubious claims of origin[/EDIT]). The "demonizing" of the various deities in the bible is also relatively modern, with the jews themselves seeming to recognize those being as actual beings but not typically hating them (obviously YHWH did, so the prophets of YHWH would have, and as such there is language of that type in the bible as it comes from the prophets, but the general populace were not prophets and held wildly different views at times) except at certain times of their history when they were very pro-YHWH.

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For example;Child sacrifices were blamed on her though these were heinous acts of humanity wrongly attributed to the Goddess and to Baal and Jeremiah opposed her worship citing the acts of these violent men;
I disagree that those heinous acts were attributed to anyone except the people doing them. The verses you quoted show exactly that; that HUMANS were the ones who sacrificed their children, even if it was TO various deities it was still the people who are accused of the crime.

As for the contents of the Zohar, that shouldn't be surprising at all. Look at its dubious claims of origins and authenticity.

Quote
The Books of  1 & II Kings are suspected to have been written 900 to 500 BC  or 560 and 538 B.C depending on sources . And it is in these texts that we learn about Elijah asking for the Goddess to be removed from the temple and hearts .
I don't recall anything at all about Elijah ever denouncing any generic form of "the" goddess. His main opposition was towards Ba'al and Jezebel (a human leader, not a goddess).

Quote
Genesis is dated credibly at 150 BC (because of twenty-four fragments found among the Dead Sea Scrolls, dating from between 150 BC and AD 70. )
That does not date Genesis at 150 BC. That sets the absolutely latest date for it's creation at 150 BC. However, since it was referenced in other parts of the bible that were written before that, it HAD to have been written before then. The logic you're trying to use is like saying that because we have a copy of the bible written in the year 2010, that the bible was composed in 2010; that's not how it works. What that does mean is that the absolute latest date the bible could have been composed is 2010, but that does not mean it WAS composed in 2010. Do you see the difference?

EDIT: Just noticed this part:
Quote
Everything I have read said that Yahweh was the male God from the 7th century BC when monotheism became the norm for Jews. So I did not expect to find such beautiful references to a Semitic Goddess 900 years later in the Zohar. And I respectfully ask your perspective on that, Steve et al.
It shouldn't be surprising. Worshiping of female deities never died out just because the jews were monotheistic at some points of their long history (in fact, according to their own histories, they were punished many times because they were polytheistic); the jews were not the main, and especially not the only, culture/race of people. And similarily, YHWH was not THE male god from 7 BC, he was still A god (whether "he" was portrayed as male or not depended more on who the author of a specific section was, moreso than a general consensus on "his" gender). Also, paganism has existed a long long time alongside other major religions of the world, and has always had background followings (as in, even if there were a lot of followers, they didn't write prominent books that made people take notice of them, like other religions did), so a push for a "The" goddess deity to worship has almost always been around, even if not among specific groups or religions. As for why it would be in the Zohar; that's probably because the zohar isn't exactly "orthodox" or "accepted mainstream".

~Steve
Title: Re: Demon Worship
Post by: Aunt Clair on March 02, 2011, 08:42:12 PM
How various tribes viewed various spiritual entities changed a lot from place to place and time to time,
Agreed.
Quote
As for who or what "lilith" was, that is a huge discussion and does not easily boil down to "she was this and that", as different ancient texts (including the ones that predate the jews) used the word to denote different things, anything from birds to spirits. There's a hell of a lot more rumours and modernized romanticism of lilith than what the ancients actually said about it.
I reference Gilgamesh's introduction to Lilith . I do not believe any text mentioning Lilith predates that . But I am uncertain.
Quote
Quote
She had been the wife of Yahweh but she became the wife of Ba'al instead of the mother Goddess and she was no longer the wife of Yahweh. Ba'al was demonised and so was Asherah.
I don't recall her ever being the wife of Ba'al, and never was she the wife of YHWH; that seems more a later folklore that has no source in ancient writings EDIT I just got to the end of your post, where you quote the zohar as saying she was the wife of whoever. I disagree with the Zohar, especially considering its dubious claims of origin END EDIT.
Why do you disagree with the Zohar, in general?

Quote
Quote
For example;Child sacrifices were blamed on her though these were heinous acts of humanity wrongly attributed to the Goddess and to Baal and Jeremiah opposed her worship citing the acts of these violent men;
I disagree that those heinous acts were attributed to anyone except the people doing them.
Actually I agree, I believe that humans ,and not God, are culpable for this evil and that is what I meant to convey.
Quote
As for the contents of the Zohar, that shouldn't be surprising at all. Look at its dubious claims of origins and authenticity.
Also agreed. There is a HUGE difference between 2 AD and 1300s AD . I would like a Zohar expert to demonstrate evidence to defend an earlier origin of 2AD.

Quote
Quote
Genesis is dated credibly at 150 BC (because of twenty-four fragments found among the Dead Sea Scrolls, dating from between 150 BC and AD 70. )
That does not date Genesis at 150 BC. That sets the absolutely latest date for it's creation at 150 BC.
Agreed.
Quote
Do you see the difference?
Of course. I take on board that I could have written that more clearly.

Quote
Quote
Everything I have read said that Yahweh was the male one and only God of the Jews from the 7th century BC when monotheism became their norm . So I did not expect to find such beautiful references to a Semitic Goddess 900 years later in the Zohar. And I respectfully ask your perspective on that, Steve et al.
It shouldn't be surprising. Worshiping of female deities never died out just because the jews were monotheistic at some points of their long history (in fact, according to their own histories, they were punished many times because they were polytheistic); the jews were not the main, and especially not the only, culture/race of people. And similarily, YHWH was not THE male god from 7 BC, he was still A god (whether "he" was portrayed as male or not depended more on who the author of a specific section was, moreso than a general consensus on "his" gender). Also, paganism has existed a long long time alongside other major religions of the world, and has always had background followings (as in, even if there were a lot of followers, they didn't write prominent books that made people take notice of them, like other religions did), so a push for a "The" goddess deity to worship has almost always been around, even if not among specific groups or religions. As for why it would be in the Zohar; that's probably because the zohar isn't exactly "orthodox" or "accepted mainstream".
~Steve
Thank you.
Title: Re: Demon Worship
Post by: clove99 on March 03, 2011, 02:14:33 AM
Thanks, Corcoran.  I performed a sigil and sh*t just by me mentioning that I did so, "affects" the potency, apparently.  I do not dwell on it, though it feels uncomfortable and somewhat insane to not actively seek out other legal assistance while waiting for the truly desired situation to work itself out.

Good grief, I have a week left to file.
Title: Re: Demon Worship
Post by: Akenu on March 03, 2011, 02:37:34 AM
@clove99: there is no problem in seeking other legal assistance :).
Title: Re: Demon Worship
Post by: Corcoran on March 05, 2011, 06:45:47 AM
Thanks, Corcoran.  I performed a sigil and sh*t just by me mentioning that I did so, "affects" the potency, apparently.

Do you mind if I ask how/where you came across that idea? I have never read or heard that simply speaking of the act of creating a sigil can affect its power.

I have been advised to leave the sigils be after completion and not obsess over them - to detach myself from the process, if you will, but I don't think one needs to forget them completely.
Title: Re: Demon Worship
Post by: Wren on March 05, 2011, 09:03:53 AM
Fire and Forget.  :P

Title: Re: Demon Worship
Post by: Akenu on March 07, 2011, 12:34:15 AM
Best for forgetting is a good laugh :).
Title: Re: Demon Worship
Post by: clove99 on March 08, 2011, 11:16:30 PM
Well, I cannot imagine any attorney running to the court house tomorrow on my behalf and filing even if I did have a retainer.  I think this one expired and it's safe to say that a sigil was not an effective method for achieving this very crucial goal.

I created a bunch of sigils for different purposes, and nothing has come to fruition yet.
Title: Re: Demon Worship
Post by: Akenu on March 09, 2011, 02:30:51 AM
@clove99: create+charge+release(=forget). It's crucial :)
Or try prayer.
Title: Re: Demon Worship
Post by: Cheezee on March 09, 2011, 07:25:57 AM
"It's crucial or try prayer"? Well, if prayer also works, then it wouldn't be crucial, right?
Title: Re: Demon Worship
Post by: Akenu on March 09, 2011, 07:28:01 AM
@Cheeze: Not everyone is a believer to pray, right?
I have given two possibilities:
a) continue in Sigilic Magick and do it correctly
OR
b) try prayer
Title: Re: Demon Worship
Post by: clove99 on March 12, 2011, 11:25:16 PM
hahahah, I became interested in all forms of magick because prayer didn't work for me.

Awakened, the key is to not lust for the results...to not obsess over them, but if the efficacy of sigil magick depends upon actually forgetting the wish and essentially letting go the desire, then it's a senseless cyclical dilemma because what is the point of a wish being fulfilled after it has lost its meaning?  Who cares if you get what you once wanted in the past but no longer truly want because you released the desire for it?  This kind of catch 22 situation really p*sses me off.  You're right.  I don't think sigil magick is for me if it is dependent upon letting go of desire.  The moment I let go of desire, I no longer intend, OR WANT FOR THAT MATTER, the wish to be fulfilled.

Give me another idea, Awakened, of how to manifest desires without letting go of them.  Something simple, yet effective?  (BTW, I forgot about the other specific sigils I did, I just know that I did several for various purposes and specified "within a week's time", and yet whether it was for legal, money, health or sex...nothing.

Chime in here anyone else who has any ideas, particularly going back to demon worship if need be.  Thanks.
Title: Re: Demon Worship
Post by: Emerald Mushroom on March 13, 2011, 03:27:52 AM
hahahah, I became interested in all forms of magick because prayer didn't work for me.

Awakened, the key is to not lust for the results...to not obsess over them, but if the efficacy of sigil magick depends upon actually forgetting the wish and essentially letting go the desire, then it's a senseless cyclical dilemma because what is the point of a wish being fulfilled after it has lost its meaning?  Who cares if you get what you once wanted in the past but no longer truly want because you released the desire for it?  This kind of catch 22 situation really p*sses me off.  You're right.  I don't think sigil magick is for me if it is dependent upon letting go of desire.  The moment I let go of desire, I no longer intend, OR WANT FOR THAT MATTER, the wish to be fulfilled.

Give me another idea, Awakened, of how to manifest desires without letting go of them.  Something simple, yet effective?  (BTW, I forgot about the other specific sigils I did, I just know that I did several for various purposes and specified "within a week's time", and yet whether it was for legal, money, health or sex...nothing.

Chime in here anyone else who has any ideas, particularly going back to demon worship if need be.  Thanks.


sigil magick can work for you, forgetting the desire isn't necessarily the thing, its forgetting the meaning o the sigil. Pulling it out of your sock drawer and thinking "WTF was this for?" then charging and firing it anyway. of course there is another way that i have found works great.

http://www.chaosmatrix.org/library/chaos/spare/blackout.html
Quote
The normal procedure, as many will undoubtedly be familiar with, (and this is only one of its uses) is that a sigil/glyph of desire is held in the mind`s eye whilst in what we all refer to as the death posture e.g., stood on tiptoe, arms locked behind the head, body stretched to its limit, deep spasmodic breathing, until total exhaustion and inevitably one blacks out, the sigil is then lost to the mind of the inner and the banished of laughter is evoked to prevent the resurfacing of the said sigil.
Title: Re: Demon Worship
Post by: clove99 on March 14, 2011, 01:06:37 AM
Uhm...anything else?  No, seriously, the Death Posture or Death Spin as ways of achieving gnosis do not sound healthy to me.  In fact, the blackout aspect reminds me of some report, some time ago, in the news about juveniles who would cause themselves to hyperventilate, followed by strangulation to the point of blackout.  Medical reports state that this blackout method (sounds very similar to Death Posture, etc.) destroys a signficant quantity of brain cells, not to mention the inherent danger in self injury when losing balance and falling down.

I suppose one could achieve the gnosis necessary to charge a sigil by slitting the wrists, but I'd pass on that too.

I am back to wondering how to conjure up a demon.
Title: Re: Demon Worship
Post by: Akenu on March 14, 2011, 01:57:58 AM
@clove99: So, you suppose that death posture and such gnostic states are dangerous, but you want to conjure up a demon (which is even more dangerous)?
Human mind is really funny, isn't it?
Instead of trying to reach high to entities which can help you and which helped mankind for so many times (I mean angels), you want to go so low to contact entities, which never helped, but always only caused harm?

What is so amazing about demons?
Title: Re: Demon Worship
Post by: Corcoran on March 14, 2011, 03:30:07 PM
Awakened, the key is to not lust for the results...to not obsess over them, but if the efficacy of sigil magick depends upon actually forgetting the wish and essentially letting go the desire, then it's a senseless cyclical dilemma because what is the point of a wish being fulfilled after it has lost its meaning?  Who cares if you get what you once wanted in the past but no longer truly want because you released the desire for it?  This kind of catch 22 situation really p*sses me off.  You're right.  I don't think sigil magick is for me if it is dependent upon letting go of desire.  The moment I let go of desire, I no longer intend, OR WANT FOR THAT MATTER, the wish to be fulfilled.

In my sigil work (which admittedly is very small) I have not forgot the wish or desire of the sigil, but rather not let it consume the forefront of my mind. It would still be something I thought about and desired, and would still nestle somewhere at the back of my mind, but it would not be something I was obsessing over - just attempting to sit back and let the sigil do its work.

In my most successful sigil thus far, this particular one was a combination of the sigil and my own practical, non-magickal efforts to obtain what I desired (which I now have.) Perhaps the speed or power of magick is increased when blended with independent action of the individual? However, I understand there are cases in which your own action is not possible, in which case it is a moot point.
Title: Re: Demon Worship
Post by: Mindlessinvalid on March 14, 2011, 05:26:07 PM
forgetting the desire is the most important part of sigil sorcery.

The rational mind kills magical intent because every stray thought will add its own energy to the desired outcome.

This is actually a bad thing because the more you analyze your intent, the more you'll erode it. Lusting after the result in any capacity will scatter the energy involved due to the myriad intents woven into the spell.

One singular intent is better than a thousand weak ones. In fact the thousand weak ones will almost always fail.

The way around this is develop your "yi" and focus your mind through regular training of the mental faculties you possess.

Sigil magick is good because as long as it's done properly, even novices get powerful results.

Sigil magick is to traditional magic as a katana is to a shinai.

Anyone can kill with a katana, but a shinai being designed for practice rather than war is harmless by comparision.

Give a master either however and they could do serious damage to the novice.

Title: Re: Demon Worship
Post by: clove99 on March 14, 2011, 09:55:44 PM
Awakened, I am at a point in my life where I want things without such great sacrifice.  I would call this indulgence, which is a core philosophy of Satanism, which invokes demonic entities, and according to many, with great success.

Though I haven't yet had successful contact with a demon or any results for that matter, I also have not had successful results with angels, indirectly, through traditional means of prayer to the xian god or Jesus.  In fact, because I have always sacrificed and lacked prosperity (in many areas) I have been repeatedly told by xians, believers of god and angels, that to live a life of deprivation makes one closer to god.

Well, F*CK THAT!!!!  I don't give a rat's *ss about an afterlife never providing evidence to exist while I live a pitiful life of desperate struggle on the physical Earth.

I want to use magick to achieve next to impossible results, that otherwise wouldn't come in my day to day existence despite my labor and strife.  Get it???

I will use demonic invocation (if I can get it to work), or any other method as long as it is effective in bringing me wish fulfillment.  What type of angels would mess with the will of another person and make them do what I want?  I don't know of any, and if you say that angels do interfere with free-will, then that is an uncommon opinion, or controversial at best.
Title: Re: Demon Worship
Post by: clove99 on March 14, 2011, 10:13:58 PM
Mindlessinvalid (great name), I will revert to an earlier proposition I had earlier which is the efficacy of doing a sigil for another person.  Can someone else do a sigil for me and express the intent by proxy, or does this automatically weaken the intent because the desire is not shared between the opertor and the beneficiary?

(Would be nice if someone would do a sigil with a simple intention to have me discover my exact method for gaining potent/fast results with my sigil work.)
Title: Re: Demon Worship
Post by: Wren on March 14, 2011, 10:27:36 PM
Free-will is a lie.

Determinism is an oversimplification.

Belief only changes one's interpretation of reality.

Mythologies, containing mutually exclusive information, must be reconciled in some way before use.

Do what thou wilt, and better luck to you in the future.
Title: Re: Demon Worship
Post by: Corcoran on March 15, 2011, 04:47:11 PM
In fact, because I have always sacrificed and lacked prosperity (in many areas) I have been repeatedly told by xians, believers of god and angels, that to live a life of deprivation makes one closer to god.

That is something that I don't believe at all (and it seems like you don't either.) I firmly believe that it is possible for an individual to maintain a close relationship with God and a spiritual nature and wisdom whilst also possessing wealth and material comforts. One's station in life, whether they are wealthy or poor, does not determine one's level of spiritual success. At least that is what I believe.

This is something that is touched upon in the Seth Material, of which I am influenced. Much of the Seth Material is about the nature of beliefs, thoughts and emotions and how it is with these that an individual creates their own reality, though creates matter, etc. Seth stresses that our deeply-rooted beliefs about something will affect and create what we experience. Therefore, if one thinks that wealth makes a person bad or unspiritual, then they may block themselves from attaining more money and have to constantly pinch the pennies. If one has no such judgement then they do not shut themselves off from the comforts that money can provide.
Title: Re: Demon Worship
Post by: Emerald Mushroom on March 15, 2011, 08:26:52 PM
Free-will is a lie.

to those with weak wills.
Title: Re: Demon Worship
Post by: Wren on March 15, 2011, 11:03:14 PM
Free-will is a lie.

to those with weak wills.

You completely missed my point. The concept of free will is a crutch for those unable to accept that the world might in fact be a very deterministic place on the macro, just as fatalism can be a crutch for those weak of will. The solution is simple. Cleave the Gordian knot. "Do or do not; there is no try." It matters not whether an action is predetermined or freely chosen, only that the act is done.
Title: Re: Demon Worship
Post by: Emerald Mushroom on March 16, 2011, 12:20:58 AM

It matters not whether an action is predetermined or freely chosen, only that the act is done.[/b]

I whole heatedly disagree. If faced with the option to go with the predetermined path and save all of creation, or forge a new one and destroy all of creation, I would destroy it every time. Not because I hate it, but because it was not supposed to happen. I would rather cause the pain and suffering of untold billions for the ability to be truly free than to live in ignorant bliss.

This is not to say forging a new path HAS to be "evil" just that if it was I wouldn't hesitate or regret doing it. After all isn't the goal of all our work eventual godhood? And gods don't follow someone else's plan. They make their own. As much as i prefer to quote real people I believe the intro cinematic for Master Of Orion 3 pretty much sums up my entire point.

Quote
For when a new creation becomes strong enough, independent enough. It can veer from it's intended destiny to forge it's own.

I would rather be lost endlessly off the path than to tread for one moment on it. My fate, my destiny, is mine. Others may influence it, but none control it. And if i die, and meet the creator and he does indeed have a plan he and I will have words.

I'd rather die as Rorschach than live as Manhattan


bonus points to the first to get the reference.
Title: Re: Demon Worship
Post by: Wren on March 16, 2011, 12:28:46 AM
You just said it, you psychotic Watchman. You would do it every time. Your predispositions are predictable. Your rejection of limitation is itself limiting. But that doesn't matter.  My point is that confusing religion and philosophy is Stuuuuuuuuuuuuuupid.  :P
Title: Re: Demon Worship
Post by: Emerald Mushroom on March 16, 2011, 12:39:03 AM
You just said it, you psychotic Watchman. You would do it every time. Your predispositions are predictable. Your rejection of limitation is itself limiting. But that doesn't matter.  My point is that confusing religion and philosophy is Stuuuuuuuuuuuuuupid.  :P

The two are pretty much the same thing really. Religion just adds "or god will punish you" to the end of the moral and ethical guidelines.

and while i may be predictable, the outcome for my actions would not be predictable if ever i were to succeed in my efforts. A single rain drop can erode even the mightiest stone if it hits it enough, or at least just once REAL good.
Title: Re: Demon Worship
Post by: Wren on March 16, 2011, 12:42:56 AM
I'll take my Logic with a side of pronouncements from on high (that I can scrape off), thank you very much. Not the other way around.
Title: Re: Demon Worship
Post by: Akenu on March 16, 2011, 12:53:38 AM
=== FREE WILL ===
Well, there is free will, and maybe more than some individuals need...
Time is just illusion of this plane, it doesn't exist on highest planes and that's also why our whole fate is written there (it all happens at the same time at the same point)

@Emerald Mushroom: Thovt, Anupev, Eset, Re, Hor, Hathor... Do you know what they have in common?
Yes, they are gods... Are they standalone energies? No, of course not. They are all part of the Source, of Creator.
Quite frankly, if you weren't part of God, not only your Magick wouldn't work, you wouldn't even exist...
Also be careful, if destruction is all you strive for, then destruction will be your fate.
Title: Re: Demon Worship
Post by: Emerald Mushroom on March 16, 2011, 01:00:15 AM
I strive not for destruction, but for separation. And if it means destruction as a means to the end then by god I will destroy. And if i climb to the top of a mountain of ruble and see nothing but nonexistence staring back at me i will plunge into it with a smile on my face. Not because i destroyed all there was, not because i rebelled against creation and won, not for any twisted moral justification of my actions. No, I will smile because I will be free and no one and nothing weather it be mortal or otherwise can change that.

Of course if i can do the same without destroying anything that would be preferable I am a nice guy after all.
Title: Re: Demon Worship
Post by: Akenu on March 16, 2011, 01:02:47 AM
Well, there is a very powerful symbol which is able to split you from the source... If I recall correctly, the result always was a slow and painful death...
Or you can also try to use pulsa dinura on yourself, this will also split you from source's love :).
Title: Re: Demon Worship
Post by: Wren on March 16, 2011, 01:06:46 AM
=== FREE WILL ===
Well, there is free will, and maybe more than some individuals need...
Time is just illusion of this plane, it doesn't exist on highest planes and that's also why our whole fate is written there (it all happens at the same time at the same point)

 :headwall:

If these highest planes exist, then "the whole of fate" is predetermined.

But it still doesn't matter dammit.

Predetermination and free will aren't practical considerations. Needless philosophications that complicate things and stop one from actually doing magic are all that they are. Sure, the ultimate nature of reality is fun to think about, but on a smaller scale, it won't impact your magic while you are grasping around in the dark. The strength of the focus, the will power, and personal power are vastly more important. Spend your time on what promises the greatest expected utility. Duh.   :rolleyes:
Title: Re: Demon Worship
Post by: Akenu on March 16, 2011, 01:09:25 AM
@Wren: Tell me, what has the greatest expected utility? Is it wasting my own energy or connecting with the Whole and using whatever energy I wish?
Title: Re: Demon Worship
Post by: Emerald Mushroom on March 16, 2011, 01:14:00 AM
Well, there is a very powerful symbol which is able to split you from the source... If I recall correctly, the result always was a slow and painful death...
Or you can also try to use pulsa dinura on yourself, this will also split you from source's love :).

what symbol is this?
Title: Re: Demon Worship
Post by: Wren on March 16, 2011, 01:14:36 AM
Your question is broken and aimed at the wrong party. I like theurgy for christ's sake. I'm saying that naivete has NO place in the magician as I conceive of him.
Title: Re: Demon Worship
Post by: Akenu on March 16, 2011, 01:18:50 AM
@Wren: Then I don't see your point in needless philosophications and a lack of free will
@Emerald Mushroom: Why should I give such strong symbol to black Magician?
Title: Re: Demon Worship
Post by: Emerald Mushroom on March 16, 2011, 01:20:37 AM
@Wren: Then I don't see your point in needless philosophications and a lack of free will
@Emerald Mushroom: Why should I give such strong symbol to black Magician?


You RACIST!

Besides isn't the general idea of a black magician someone who wants to cause harm to others? By all commonly accepted schools of thought I only seek to hurt myself.
Title: Re: Demon Worship
Post by: Akenu on March 16, 2011, 01:23:23 AM
@Emerald Mushroom: Then do a headwall or something, what is so great about dying? Splitting from source is very slow and painful death. No matter how much you eat, you still feel hungry, no matter how much you sleep, you are still tired, losing weight more and more and feeling more and more weaker.
Title: Re: Demon Worship
Post by: Emerald Mushroom on March 16, 2011, 01:24:22 AM
because the idea here is to not die and still do it.
Title: Re: Demon Worship
Post by: Akenu on March 16, 2011, 01:26:38 AM
@Emerald Mushroom: I guess I see your point now. Do you remember "As above so below" and "Everything is one". Try to meditate on it, you will find out what it really means.
Title: Re: Demon Worship
Post by: Emerald Mushroom on March 16, 2011, 01:27:29 AM
There is always an exception.
Title: Re: Demon Worship
Post by: Wren on March 16, 2011, 01:29:07 AM
And I don't see why you must connect the concept of divinity with needless philosophizing and moralizing rhetoric. Clove wants the bloody result. In general, people who do magic want the bloody result. Divine union ain't Thaumaturgy, though Theurgy and Thaumaturgy are kissing cousins. How do you go about getting a bloody result? You use wisdom, then action. I'm pointing out what I think are overarching flaws in the wisdom of the theory involved in demonolatry. Simple. On topic. And apparently entirely too complicated. I still love you. But you all can be infuriating sometimes.
Title: Re: Demon Worship
Post by: Emerald Mushroom on March 16, 2011, 01:30:13 AM
conflict is the only constant in life wren. ;) love ya too ol pal.
Title: Re: Demon Worship
Post by: Akenu on March 16, 2011, 01:30:37 AM
Not in this case :). When God is the whole reality then no matter how much you try, there is no way how to be "out of reality".

But anyway, there can be something I don't know. Something that no one knows :). To find it out, you must find DAAT.
Title: Re: Demon Worship
Post by: Wren on March 16, 2011, 01:48:41 AM
Not in this case :). When God is the whole reality then no matter how much you try, there is no way how to be "out of reality".

But anyway, there can be something I don't know. Something that no one knows :). To find it out, you must find DAAT.

Actually, there is, even within Radical Monism. It's called Mukti or Moksha. By realizing and proclaiming the Atman as the Brahman, by the power of the magic words it becomes so, and the Self becomes the whole of reality, unbound by the fetters of Reality, for it is Reality.  :P And that's not even getting into Buddhism or dualist, pluralist, or qualified monist positions. See. Did you suddenly become enlightened? Didn't think so.
Title: Re: Demon Worship
Post by: Akenu on March 16, 2011, 01:50:01 AM
@Wren: That still means Everything is one...
Title: Re: Demon Worship
Post by: Wren on March 16, 2011, 01:58:24 AM
I. Never. Said. It. Wasn't.

EM's goal can be achieved within Radical Monism.

Title: Re: Demon Worship
Post by: clove99 on March 16, 2011, 02:02:53 AM
Sorry to get off topic...you all lost me anyway with your current discussion but, can someone recommend (along the lines of any magickal achievement that I so desire) the best AND SIMPLEST form of magick to quickly attract a non-specific lover?  You could call this a soulmate request, though I don't really believe in such a thing.  I am thinking along the lines of expeditiously manifesting the person of your dreams...the one (when you have a vision of one) who encompasses all of the qualities you find attractive including mutually intense attraction toward you.

And, please don't say sigil (hahahaha)...

...though for the heck of it I'd probably incorporate it into any appropriate working.
Title: Re: Demon Worship
Post by: Akenu on March 16, 2011, 02:04:44 AM
@Wren: Then it won't help to achieve his goal...
Everything is one and one is Everything.
I can say I am creation and I am correct, I can say I am Creator and I am correct. I am one and everything, I am here and everywhere, I live on this plane and in every plane. I am God and you are God, we all are God. We are both life and death at the same time and same point.
@clove99: Sorry for getting off topic, this is my favorite topic :). Well, maybe sigil Magick, maybe something else :).
Title: Re: Demon Worship
Post by: Wren on March 16, 2011, 02:10:58 AM
Well, if it doesn't have to be the love of your life, tinting the personal power with "love" qualities through a consecrated talisman would probably be the best. You could also try devotional work with "love" entities, but I doubt you'll want to go that route again.

@Awakened I would say we should take this to the PM, but guess what? My whole point was that this topic doesn't matter. :P
Title: Re: Demon Worship
Post by: Akenu on March 16, 2011, 02:12:40 AM
@Wren: It both does and doesn't matter, that's the beauty :).
Let's be it that way as we all speak only half truth.

May God bless you :).
Title: Re: Demon Worship
Post by: Wren on March 16, 2011, 02:15:54 AM
May you see Mimir's Well.

N.A.P. comes highly recommended. I haven't worked it. It has a spell for attracting love. It also has a spell for domination of another's will. It might be worth trying out.
Title: Re: Demon Worship
Post by: Akenu on March 16, 2011, 02:28:32 AM
Needless to say Mimir's Well is just another philosophication, isn't it? :)
Maybe I have already swom in it, you be the judge
Title: Re: Demon Worship
Post by: Wren on March 16, 2011, 02:35:05 AM
No. It's a metaphor that can be engaged with. Practically.
Title: Re: Demon Worship
Post by: Akenu on March 16, 2011, 02:37:21 AM
The same as Daat.
Title: Re: Demon Worship
Post by: Wren on March 16, 2011, 02:42:10 AM
No. Like Daat. Not the same as Daat.
Title: Re: Demon Worship
Post by: Akenu on March 16, 2011, 02:45:16 AM
Were you there so you can say it's not the same?
Title: Re: Demon Worship
Post by: Wren on March 16, 2011, 02:51:45 AM
Yes. Because I am God and so Omnipresent.
Title: Re: Demon Worship
Post by: Akenu on March 16, 2011, 02:55:34 AM
@Wren: Then I don't see why I am arguing with myself :D.
By merging soul and spirit personal intent becomes divine intent and "individual" (see the quotes) becomes one with Creator therefore obtaining Divine Knowledge. This concept is known as Daat.
You can perceive Daat as a big (very big) book, Mímir's Well, just an act of merging soul and spirit, table with a lot of papers, notebook, smartphone, green abductive alien, whatever you wish for. It doesn't really matter as these perceptions are individual. If you go behind these individual perceptions you find Daat.
Title: Re: Demon Worship
Post by: Wren on March 16, 2011, 03:02:34 AM
I was returning your blessing. Don't ask me. Also "My false perception of the totality of reality is more complete than your false perception of the totality of realty. Neener Neener." Is all I can get out of saying that Daat is the fundamental experience. If it has a name, it is marred by the separation of subject and object. In light of this, treating the disparate incarnations of certain processes as separate yet related phenomena seems wisest. But. It. Doesn't. Matter. It. Isn't. Demonolatry.
Title: Re: Demon Worship
Post by: Akenu on March 16, 2011, 03:46:26 AM
@Wren: I agree. From times words exist there is this confusion. But if there weren't words at all, we couldn't discuss our mistakes :).
People always try to name something that cannot be named and this way creating subjective perception of such thing.
Whether it is Daat or God or something else. Such words give illusion of something that can be named and therefore limiting the true meaning behind the word.
I guess "Monolopakatra" is my answer, then :)
Title: Re: Demon Worship
Post by: clove99 on April 09, 2011, 01:03:01 PM
Hey, I'm back with the same search.

What does anyone know about the Invocation of Set, the Prince of Darkness, in as far as making deals to control and dominate the thoughts, feelings and will of another person to make them do what you want?

Well?  Speak up, everyone!
Title: Re: Demon Worship
Post by: Mindlessinvalid on April 09, 2011, 01:30:48 PM
The grasping hand closes on nothing.
Title: Re: Demon Worship
Post by: naimihero on April 11, 2011, 11:31:40 AM
what happens if a demon gets frekkin pissed at you? i mean like really, really angry.
other than playing dead, what would you do?
Title: Re: Demon Worship
Post by: Akenu on April 11, 2011, 12:27:53 PM
@naimihero: God's names save a day... :-)
I have once heard about a very pissed off demon...
Evocater got scared after demon appeared with blue shiny eyes (which is common) and ran away (I guess he was a novice in evocations).
You know, physical manifestation is not simple for demons and if he made such troubles to appear to just find out someone with no clue, he just got pissed... Result was a long and loud thunder.
Title: Re: Demon Worship
Post by: Steve on April 11, 2011, 09:08:09 PM
Why bother with God's names when you can just let your guardian angels whoop his ass?

New-age jokes aside, a God's name should not be used by those who are soiled with indecency. What I mean by that is that each different God has a variety of character traits/qualities that they think humans should have; if you haven't developed any of them in yourself, then what makes you think a deity is going to care about you when you've obviously not cared about them? At the very least, developing the particular traits of a deity should allow you to "tune" yourself to the energy of the being so that even if the being itself doesn't make an appearance, you may still be able to draw properly upon their energies (as opposed to calling out randomly in the vain hope that a being with much better things to do with its time will come save you after you went out of your way to piss off a demon (demons, like most beings, don't typically get pissed off at a person without a good reason)).

What would you do if a demon gets pissed at you? Same thing you'd do if a guy with a gun gets pissed at you; either let him have his way with you, or try to fight back and see where that gets you (note, for those who don't know: fighting on the physical level is just one way of fighting. You can also fight on the verbal level, by talking to them and attempting to use words to get yourself safely out of the situation. Economic fighting is another possibility; you may be able to bribe him into letting you leave. Etc).

~Steve
Title: Re: Demon Worship
Post by: Akenu on April 11, 2011, 09:24:22 PM
@Steve: That's why I have my faith, it gives me a way to use these names :)
Title: Re: Demon Worship
Post by: EasT on April 13, 2011, 05:58:11 AM
I remember when I was reading the Lesser Key of Solomon, some of these so-called demons were said to appear in angelic form once you get them inside the hexagram.

Any thoughts/comments/experiences on/with these particular entities?


Cheers
Title: Re: Demon Worship
Post by: naimihero on April 13, 2011, 01:11:30 PM
I remember when I was reading the Lesser Key of Solomon, some of these so-called demons were said to appear in angelic form once you get them inside the hexagram.

Any thoughts/comments/experiences on/with these particular entities?


Cheers
i know this is gonna piss ppl off, but i think thatz because theyre all basically the same. i dont think it's "real" angels and demons ppl call, it's just like another race. the reason they seem different a lot of the time is because the choices they make creates a fundemental difference in them.
thats the reason Sulaiman could bend both "angels" and "demons" to follow his orders.
Title: Re: Demon Worship
Post by: Mindlessinvalid on April 13, 2011, 05:06:32 PM
I remember when I was reading the Lesser Key of Solomon, some of these so-called demons were said to appear in angelic form once you get them inside the hexagram.

Any thoughts/comments/experiences on/with these particular entities?


Cheers
i know this is gonna piss ppl off, but i think thatz because theyre all basically the same. i dont think it's "real" angels and demons ppl call, it's just like another race. the reason they seem different a lot of the time is because the choices they make creates a fundemental difference in them.
thats the reason Sulaiman could bend both "angels" and "demons" to follow his orders.

Why would angels and demons being the same thing be the cause of solomon being able to control both? Why can't they be fundamentally different and still be forced to submit to him? Also, if they were a different race, why would they submit at all?

Most thaumaturgists worth their salt claim that having spiritual authority greater than that of a given spirit forces them to submit to you. So there's no reason to assume angels and demons are the same thing any further than saying that they are all incorporeal beings. To use a popular insult as an example, by that reasoning your mother is a dog because they are both corporeal beings.

Furthermore, what is the value to an opinion from one person who can't spell properly against the value of the teachings of every adept and established thaumaturgist?


Also, what is the value of speculation? Without context, speculation is nothing more that convincing yourself of your own lies. Regardless of whether or not you're right.
Title: Re: Demon Worship
Post by: Fluidz on April 13, 2011, 05:13:38 PM
I remember when I was reading the Lesser Key of Solomon, some of these so-called demons were said to appear in angelic form once you get them inside the hexagram.

Any thoughts/comments/experiences on/with these particular entities?


Cheers
i know this is gonna piss ppl off, but i think thatz because theyre all basically the same. i dont think it's "real" angels and demons ppl call, it's just like another race. the reason they seem different a lot of the time is because the choices they make creates a fundemental difference in them.
thats the reason Sulaiman could bend both "angels" and "demons" to follow his orders.

Why would angels and demons being the same thing be the cause of solomon being able to control both? Why can't they be fundamentally different and still be forced to submit to him? Also, if they were a different race, why would they submit at all?

Most thaumaturgists worth their salt claim that having spiritual authority greater than that of a given spirit forces them to submit to you. So there's no reason to assume angels and demons are the same thing any further than saying that they are all incorporeal beings. To use a popular insult as an example, by that reasoning your mother is a dog because they are both corporeal beings.

Furthermore, what is the value to an opinion from one person who can't spell properly against the value of the teachings of every adept and established thaumaturgist?


Also, what is the value of speculation? Without context, speculation is nothing more that convincing yourself of your own lies. Regardless of whether or not you're right.

I'd agree with the post. Speculations, guesses, I'd said- don't say anything until you work with such beings- then you have something to say. As to East's thing...I'd say what POV are you taking? If your taking a purely Judeo-Christian perspective then no- being "demons" are earthbound spirits and if one were to do Goetic work, they literally need to be raised up to show the magickians competence. Now, on the other hand- if your taking a more ancient POV then those "demons" are not angelic but ancient deities from various pantheons such as Phoenician, Sumerian etc. so are they angelic at that point? No..however they would be a different vibration since you are working in a different system (which is more positive depending) . What one systems deems a "demon" in another system could be a main deity of great respect.
Title: Re: Demon Worship
Post by: EasT on April 13, 2011, 07:17:17 PM
Thanks for the reply. Yeah, I always thought different of these Goetic "entities", as they are also called "Kings" by some people. I guess every deity has it's own "agenda" so-to-speak.

Have you ever worked with the Goetia?
Title: Re: Demon Worship
Post by: naimihero on April 14, 2011, 11:32:06 AM
@Mindlessinvalid: what im sayin, if i wasent clear, is that what ppl interact with arent angels or demons at all, but a third race. they arent bound (in the sense that angels cant behave like demons)
so the thing thats gonna piss u off, my point, is that u have no idea about "real" angels or demons.
 :biggrin:

Title: Re: Demon Worship
Post by: Aunt Clair on April 14, 2011, 06:16:47 PM
The magician can and should evoke their inner demons for transmutation but this is not worship , this is seeking control and healing.

The lower self can be projected from the lower back between the yellow and orange chakras;
as a frightened inner child
as a spoilt angry brat
as a demonic totem
or as a mirror image of the higher self in the highest state
the magician transmutes it by sending healing energies of unconditional love and forgiveness

The guardian demon can be projected from the navel and healed with unconditional love and forgiveness. The form that it projects teaches the magician about themselves. For example it may project as a
teddy bear demon looking more silly than evil
or as a malicious horned , clawed and intimidating more traditional demon
or ideally it will project as the guardian angel because the highest state of the GD is to be the mirror of the GA

The lessons may take several sessions in which the LS or GD or DW transmutes slowly to a higher vibration. The integration of the lessons is essential all the healing energies will do nothing without understanding what created the inner demons of Seth.Negative emotions do this and these may be grief, depression, anxiety, fear, rage,abuse and trauma for example
Letting go and forgiving the enemy within and externally is the solution for many of our emotional , physical , mental, social and spiritual issues.
Title: Re: Demon Worship
Post by: EasT on April 16, 2011, 05:49:30 PM
^Thank you Aunt Clair for this post :)

I can definitely relate with a lot of your post, I'm going through a phase right now...trying to "heal" or change myself to the better I guess.

I have a lot of worries daily, worrying about situations that I have absolutely no control of and what not. I

Again, thanks for the post, I felt a little better after reading it.


Peace and Love


EasT
Title: Re: Demon Worship
Post by: Emerald Mushroom on April 16, 2011, 07:14:14 PM
What if the "demon" they seek is nothing more than a dark part of their persona? That inner evil given shape and form by the will of the magician?


thats a particularly devious creation that is. believe me. i know.
Title: Re: Demon Worship
Post by: clove99 on April 25, 2011, 10:56:31 PM
Ok, come on, somebody must know someone who can do this for me.  Yes, that's what I said.  I need something done FOR ME.  I KNOW people can work for other people, so I don't need a lecture on how magick should be performed BY the person who needs it.  I need someone else's impetus and spiritual connection to forward my own goal.  There has to be someone who gets off on doing work just for the practice, HOWEVER, I WILL PAY.  I feel that there should be an incentive.  My feeling is that (and I am not alone in this) payment should be made when results begin to manifest (notice I didn't say when the results FULLY manifested), because I also believe in providing incentive consistently.  Whoever may be interested in doing this work should also have divinatory skills, not just to contemplate a correct approach and modify the work as needed, but also to ascertain my sincerity.  I am not stressing payment because where there is a will, there is a way, and I am confident I can work out an agreeable payment arrangement.  Besides, anyone with skill could also determine if results are being furnished, and as I truly believe, always has the ability to UNDO the work...nullify it, so to speak, if they feel underpaid.

Come on folks.  Either you or someone you know are up to this challenge.  See if you can't tap into my existing will (we would likely need to communicate via telephone rather than just this forum), and match it, and we can work together for what I want.  O BTW, no judgments welcome.  I don't question anyone else's desires...don't question mine.  I will disregard unsolicited advice, literally.  Think about it...name your price, and get back to me now while I am in a very negotiable mood, with a determined will.

O, and thanks!!!
Title: Re: Demon Worship
Post by: Akenu on April 26, 2011, 02:42:29 AM
@clove99: Are you sure there is no common approach how to obtain what you want for yourself?
Title: Re: Demon Worship
Post by: clove99 on April 26, 2011, 03:20:41 AM
Hi, Awakened.

hahaha, Oh, yeah...I'm sure.  I have been approaching and approaching, with balance and precision, using discretion with every word spoken and action taken, and the situation had an already existing obstacle at the onset, which is a challenging, but workable hurdle to overcome.

Magickally speaking, in fact, this shouldn't be considered difficult, with the exception of the people involved not *believing* in magick at all.  Some operators of magick may view this as a benefit, but I, on the otherhand have never had successful magickal results unless a subject was at least aware of my magickal practices, whether or not they consciously suspected I was directing it at them, but that knowledge fed a subconscious fear and weakened their natural defenses.  This is the only time I have ever been magickally successful, and had astounding results.

In this case, the disbelief of the subjects, and/or lack of knowledge of the practice, quite disables me magickally, but again, may not be any sort of hinderance to another adept practioner.

Are you considering my request, Awakened??  ( I love you, if you are!)
Title: Re: Demon Worship
Post by: Akenu on April 26, 2011, 03:23:37 AM
@clove99: It's merely an egoism that is considering your request. I had new Initiation yesterday and I am eager to test my new powers :D
Title: Re: Demon Worship
Post by: clove99 on April 26, 2011, 05:11:49 AM
Beautiful!  Would you care to look into the situation with a reading?
Title: Re: Demon Worship
Post by: Akenu on April 26, 2011, 05:57:19 AM
@clove99: I cannot right about now, I am currently in the office, PM me with detailed description of your problem and I will take a look during free time.
Title: Re: Demon Worship
Post by: clove99 on April 26, 2011, 06:25:25 PM
Granted Bubba, but I haven't seen results of my own personal magick in quite some time.  I think...it's likely because I abandoned all spiritual work and vacationed in Atheism for a while to recover from some bad happenings.  Nonetheless, if it comes down to not much more than psychological impetus, then that I have.  There shouldn't be any reason why I shouldn't get some kind of result with something these days.

As far as sigils, I admit, I am too focused on any given situation to actually release the intent, which is on what sigils are dependent, so I have not seen any results with the use of sigils either.  That's not to say that one of those intents for which I created a sigil two months ago won't come into being at any time in the future, but my will has changed.  So even if a sigil from the past comes to fruition in the future, it's useless to me because it didn't happen in my timeframe.  However, I did everything correctly in terms of sigil magick and got out my lotion bottle and masturbated (because I don't have a dildo), but for the "forgetting" part.  Once I successfully put something out of my mind, I no longer will for it to happen.  My thoughts mirror my will and vice versa.

I don't spend my life waiting and wondering.  I execute and give things a reasonable amount of time, while the passage of time on the physical plane seems to be such a hinderance to progress.
Title: Re: Demon Worship
Post by: clove99 on April 27, 2011, 05:54:47 PM
hahaha, Bubba.  I knew the issue of concentration was going to come up some time today.

A long time ago as well as recently I was told that I have such a great spiritual presence/power that when I do magick it feels bombarding to a subject and it was recommended that the best approach would be to lighten it up and not put so much will into it.  Ironic, isn't it?  So, I learned to pull back and put most of my energy into the process of preparation, and then light my candles, address whomever or whatever I want to address, then just direct my energy clearly and specifically, without spending significant time meditating.

I don't know if once I conditioned myself to do this pull back method, I could revert to the way I performed magick at the beginning of my magickal journey.  First I am told repeatedly by different sources that I am putting too much into it, then only to hear now that I may not be putting enough into it, would leave me exasperated.

I agree with you that while doing work, something needs to be done in the physical.  It's just that when things don't seem to go my way, I can honestly say that I did not make any mistakes along the way and that there isn't any apparent reason why I shouldn't get what I want, and not only that, but what I want was already starting to develop naturally anyway, then suddenly without any warning or rationale, the situation shifted against my will.

I have been told many times by different sources that I have something akin to a maleficent spirit with me...well not evil, but possessive...the type of spirit that only attaches to you in a grave moment of trauma.  The way it has been explained to me is that this entity wants me for himself and interferes with anything I want in life that involves interaction with other people...namely men.  I have done cleanings up the butt, rituals to bid my brother, presumably, peace and have him move on to where he needs to go, but nothing has been effective, at least not long term.  The entity thinks he is protecting me by being possessive and keeping others away from me, but it has a tendency to isolate me as well.

If this is true, then I definitely need...I don't know..an exorcist or something.
Title: Re: Demon Worship
Post by: clove99 on September 27, 2011, 01:36:50 PM
Sigils don't work either...trust me.
Title: Re: Demon Worship
Post by: Wren on September 27, 2011, 03:37:37 PM
Correction, sigils didn't work for you. Sigils and magic are both a hell of a lot more complicated than most mechanistic explanations of sigil magic allow. For example, Spare holds that there can be no rise in total happiness through sigils. That often gets omitted for sales reasons.
Title: Re: Demon Worship
Post by: Jesse9209 on September 27, 2011, 07:35:19 PM
In my experience sigils work fine. If a sigil doesn't work then it doesn't have the necessary energy for it to manifest. Through focus on a sigil you put in mental energy which builds up a charge of energy on the astral plane affecting the probability that what you desire will occur. If it does not manifest then there was more energy naturally in a place which over rode your desire. There are probably two main reasons for sigils to fail, insufficient power for the difficulty or an unclear intent.
Title: Re: Demon Worship
Post by: Searcher on September 28, 2011, 03:54:43 AM
IMHO creating a sigil, talisman or elemental is an art form and should be treated as such. Even during preparation you are building up the latent energy and intent and preparation is one of the important factors many forget. When creating a sigil how long do you take to choose the correct colour or colours, or the shape, is it going to be chaotic, random or balanced, will it meet the need. The other question is; is a sigil the correct tool for the job? Also defining what you want to achieve – S.M.A.R.T is a useful tool to follow:

S. specific, is it too general – what do I really want it to do
M. measurable, will I be able to see a change – what degree of change do I want
A. attainable, is it realistic – is it within my present scope or a leap to far
R. result orientated, is there an end result – is it the result I want
T. time related, when – is it possible in the time scale, is it too long so looses power

And then there is the charging, What colour energy are you going to use, will it reflect the planets, are you going to lace it with any elements.

When the task is completed what do you want the surplus energy to do

And then there is the issue of posting it; letting it go. Are you going to monitor it or forget it. What are you going to do with the physical bits, burn them, bury them, throw them in running water or store them?

So sigils take time and a lot of thought, it takes me about a week working on it 4 or 5 hours a day. Done properly they are a very useful tool. 
Title: Re: Demon Worship
Post by: clove99 on September 30, 2011, 01:55:19 PM
Attainable?  That's ridiculous.  I'm stunned at the lack of common sense people have when it comes to energy manipulation (a better term than "magick").  There isn't any such thing as magic or miracles.  But, I understand that it's all relative.  Someone may perceive something to be miraculous but that doesn't mean that it is.  The burden in this case is on the perception of the individual.  A magical miracle could only be classified as such if and when people, through scientific observation, conclude that some event or occurrence is a miracle.  It just doesn't happen.  I am not talking about mystical delusions that widely affect people, particularly religious, because they're already too brainwashed to accept practical explanations for whatever it is that they're perceiving to be a miracle.

If energy (quantum) can be manipulated to the extent that it can be measured and achieves dramatic, rather than subtle effects, then this is what needs to be studied and applied.  Even so, why waste this energy on that which is already attainable?  If something is attainable, then go get it and don't add in the variable of energy manipulation since it's redundant.
Title: Re: Demon Worship
Post by: Wren on October 02, 2011, 11:17:34 AM
See, probability manipulation sounds pretty durn miraculous to me, especially when it can do some truly funky stuff like PK or Flaring.

Searcher's attainability is a measure of an outcome's probability and so the amount of nudging one has to do to attain that event. It's maths. It might be a self-imposed limitation, but a lot of people smarter than me tend to accept probability as one of the underlying factors making up the "difficulty" of doing psi-action. Gordon White is on my list of my appeal to authority.
Title: Re: Demon Worship
Post by: Searcher on October 02, 2011, 02:13:01 PM
Lets accept for a moment that ‘Attainable’ is ridiculous. Wouldn’t by saying this means that anybody could do anything?

So in this case I could do brain surgery tomorrow? Which we all know is ridiculous because I have had no training in brain surgery.

So I am destined to fail if I cast something to enable me to operate on the brain.

But if I cast something to help with my training to enable me to operate on the brain some time in the future, then as wren says I am nudging the balance of probabilities.

The argument back is, who knows if the outcome would be the same if you hadn’t tried to nudge the balance of probabilities.

This argument is valid but lets try another scenario:

Lets say Jane is very dull and boring, but she wants a man, marriage, kids, stability and happiness.

Which of the following would you guess as the greater probability of success:

1, You cast that Jane finds the man of her dreams and all of her desires (the man of her dreams being Brad Pit)

2, You cast that Jane starts to help herself by becoming more out going and enjoys life

As I have said before: I do the eromillions just in case because it may just be my turn and I try what I know to nudge it my way!
Title: Re: Demon Worship
Post by: Melchizedek on October 03, 2011, 06:36:01 AM
The Demon holds the magic power that you are seeking. If you follow the path far enough, you will see him waiting for you at the end of the rainbow :mad:
Title: Re: Demon Worship
Post by: Melchizedek on October 03, 2011, 07:40:24 AM
No matter how much you discuss the theoritical aspects of the various approaches to magic, it still comes down to the spirits. We all know that there are spirits of the wind, air, rain, etc.. There are spirits that are in charge of every single aspect of the world and our lives, they dictate who does what, depending on their actions.

Persist enough and you'll be given the secrets, the ability to do anything. Be the best quarterback in football, be a mathematical genius, be the best chef, be the best stock trader, etc., etc., including being the best magician, where all you literally have to do is say the word and it will be accomplished.

Look, this is it, whether you want to debate, this or that, it matters not. It comes down to who goes that extra mile, he/she who persists will get what he/she desires in any field/.

You are the student and the spirits are the teachers. Even if you are the teacher, the spirit above you is your teacher. You can not escape this fact. You can try and debate your way around it, but you'll only be lying to yourself by doing it
Title: Re: Demon Worship
Post by: Searcher on October 03, 2011, 07:57:39 AM
Melchizedek are you saying that going the extra mile is in fact learning your trade?
Title: Re: Demon Worship
Post by: Melchizedek on October 03, 2011, 09:05:07 AM
Melchizedek are you saying that going the extra mile is in fact learning your trade?

You can learn your trade by not going the extra mile, but to be a master of your trade you have to go the extra mile. Because when you refuse to quit at being the best at it, by going the extra mile, the spirit in charge of whatever it is you call your trade,gives you the ability to be the best at it effortlessly.
Title: Re: Demon Worship
Post by: for_Him on October 04, 2011, 08:15:49 AM
the answer is pretty much in the quote 'go the extra mile'

if you go the 'extra' mile, you will be further than the one who did not go the extra mile, by exactly 1 mile
thus you will see more, experience more, discover more, learn more, know more, than the other one who did not go that far

thats it, regardless of the field you are in and regardless of the depth within that field,
if you go the extra mile when you meditate and sit for an extra 1 hour, you will experience more than the person who did not do that,
and so on and on and on, and in summation you will be more of a 'magician' than someone else, based on all the miles added together in all the aspects of your training
Title: Re: Demon Worship
Post by: Akenu on October 04, 2011, 09:11:21 AM
the answer is pretty much in the quote 'go the extra mile'

if you go the 'extra' mile, you will be further than the one who did not go the extra mile, by exactly 1 mile
thus you will see more, experience more, discover more, learn more, know more, than the other one who did not go that far

thats it, regardless of the field you are in and regardless of the depth within that field,
if you go the extra mile when you meditate and sit for an extra 1 hour, you will experience more than the person who did not do that,
and so on and on and on, and in summation you will be more of a 'magician' than someone else, based on all the miles added together in all the aspects of your training

If I go to the edge of possibilities even one extra step means falling down from the cliff.
Title: Re: Demon Worship
Post by: Steve on October 04, 2011, 05:04:55 PM
No matter how much you discuss the theoritical aspects of the various approaches to magic, it still comes down to the spirits. We all know that there are spirits of the wind, air, rain, etc.. There are spirits that are in charge of every single aspect of the world and our lives, they dictate who does what, depending on their actions.

Persist enough and you'll be given the secrets, the ability to do anything. Be the best quarterback in football, be a mathematical genius, be the best chef, be the best stock trader, etc., etc., including being the best magician, where all you literally have to do is say the word and it will be accomplished.

Look, this is it, whether you want to debate, this or that, it matters not. It comes down to who goes that extra mile, he/she who persists will get what he/she desires in any field/.

You are the student and the spirits are the teachers. Even if you are the teacher, the spirit above you is your teacher. You can not escape this fact. You can try and debate your way around it, but you'll only be lying to yourself by doing it
I'm afraid I do not entirely agree with you on this. I've seen people "persist" for years at something, and they were still only mediocre. I've heard a handful of statements over the course of my life from certain people who "stuck with" something for most of their life and yet they were still only "better than" the majority rather than being anywhere close to "the best" at that thing.

In my opinion, to be The Best requires three things: Passion, Aptitude, and Effort.

Without the passion, you won't want to learn all of the little things that turn "good" into "amazing" let alone the best. Passion makes you WANT to achieve great things in your field, makes you WANT to overcome the challenges that come your way, makes you WANT to continue going without even remembering that "giving up" is an option because you WANT to do this.

Without aptitude, there will always be hurdles in your way that you must constantly work at overcoming. And not always the good hurdles that you can make gains from; sometimes it's just the annoying hurdles that hinder you and nothing else. Those with aptitude can "flow" into the role more effortlessly. As competition swimmers know, that little bit of resistance from in-aptitude can cause a relatively big difference in outcome.

But without effort, you won't make any progress at all regardless of how much passion or aptitude you have. Those who have the greatest passion and the greatest aptitude will make the greatest gains when they put in as much effort as they can, in my views.

Aptitude makes some people better at something to start, but with enough effort everyone becomes equal for a long time, right up until you get to the higher echelons. Then, the passion and aptitude once again allow some people to stride ahead while the rest fall behind. That being said, I do believe there are ways to "adapt" one's self to gain aptitude as well, though the "how" of it is a fuzzy concept for me, so it's not like I believe there's a permanent divide between those with aptitude and those without.

~Steve
Title: Re: Demon Worship
Post by: clove99 on February 02, 2013, 03:36:58 AM
My goodness! After all this time, I thought I'd revisit this thread and find some incredible testimonials of those who have accomplished demon evocation.

I've skimmed through the rest of the conversation since I last posted some 18 months ago, and the conversation I took part in prior to that. It's all discussion of ideas, opinion, theories, but no substantial fact.

I think it's great that some people experiment with demon summoning and see and hear things or get lightbulbs exploding, but it doesn't mean much more than that unless their wish is fulfilled.

I still say the purpose of any magick is to change circumstances...according to will...that are improbable to change through ordinary hard work and diligence. The rest is just mumbo jumbo. No offense to anyone who holds fast to their system of beliefs, but to read every damn book on the subject is a monumental waste of time, especially when others have done so and can simply relay formulas of evocation.

I'm still stuck on approach, for instance. The site Angelfire strongly urges to do away with all the traditional views of Demon worship, as well as the fears, and just invite them into your home, your life as a friend, without confining them to triangles within circles and dismissing them.

Finding the success stories in this field is very difficult, and that's what I'm interested in. Where are the people who have had successful evocations to the extent of wish fulfillment?
Title: Re: Demon Worship
Post by: akuigla on February 02, 2013, 10:28:45 AM
It is not wise to seek Demonic asistence in anything.
There is not a single thing that demon can ,and Angel can't do.
As for me,I had close,very close encounter with Demon.
It was not an pleasant event.
If anybody wants to read,I published it with Lulu.The title is"Defense from unseen world".
Title: Re: Demon Worship
Post by: clove99 on February 02, 2013, 01:43:30 PM
That all depends on if the "Demon" in question is just a aspect of the self or an external entity. If it's external is it an actual demon or just a pissed off spirit. Ghost can go insane folks. Most demons are actually just than, insane/angry spirits. If the demon is just an aspect of yourself then just create a servitor around it and use it that way. It'll always be with you.

Thus the difference between invocation (external entities) and evocation (self-aspect of the psyche). But as "insane" AND powerful as the former is, doesn't that mean more potential to achieve the outcome, so long as the entity can be controlled? Whereas with evocation the results could be siginificantly milder or even non-existent.

Take wealth for example. To petition en external demon for assistance in gaining wealth (the demon, Bune, known for giving wealth to paupers), you'd think that's just what would happen. The demon would seek out the wealth and bring it to the petitioner, without the petitioner having to go invent something and start selling it online. With evocation, summoning the demon within for wealth seems that it would actually need the summoner to be just as active in pursuing a trade or marketing and selling a product or just plain training and exercise of a vocation, as they would without a summoning. This makes the former (invocation) seem so much more desirable, even if the precautions of ceremonial magick of confining the entity to a triangle, commanding and dismissing it, need to be utilized.
Title: Re: Demon Worship
Post by: clove99 on February 02, 2013, 01:54:26 PM
"Will, Desire, and Belief what more do we need to make magic?"

Answer: The assistance of an all-powerful external entity, otherwise it's not magick.

It's not magickal to act in the physical world to obtain or gain something. Will, desire and belief is what people who dismiss, disregard and deny real magick already have. They can accomplish what anyone can with the same attributes of ambition, especially when the goal is perfectly attainable in the physical world. But what about a goal that is improbable to occur, such as suddenly meeting someone who's filthy rich, without dependents, and has become so sick and tired of the high-life and all their money that they decide to become a monk and purge themselves of their wealth by giving it to you. With this example, there isn't ANYTHING that "will, desire and belief" can do to make it happen. But an external demon should be able to find that filthy rich person, create the circumstances to bring both people together and convince the rich guy to abandon his riches to the petitioner. Applying for a promotion at work and obtaining it does not require magick. Doing nothing other than the petition itself is all that is required to receive the fulfillment of a wish in magick.
Title: Re: Demon Worship
Post by: clove99 on February 02, 2013, 02:01:59 PM
Evocation - subpar? You're kidding. Do you mean as in not having a wish fulfilled?

Sigils have never worked for me.
Title: Re: Demon Worship
Post by: Searcher on February 02, 2013, 03:12:23 PM
Clove I get the feeling that you are in a deep hole and cannot get out. And you want the cavalry to come and rescue you but as we know the cavalry never comes, that’s just in the movies. So you are looking for the next (in some’s opinion) best thing and use a demon, are you prepared to pay the asking price?

Forget the movies and try and work out who the fantasiser’s are and forget them also! Dealing with demons is not nice and sooner or later their bill will be too much to cope with and you will go knocking for help. But the people who will be able to help are not registered traders or advertise on ebay or walk about with a sign around their neck saying I can help! You will get some come forward but will you know who the fantasiser’s are or the wouldbe’s and couldbe’s. It’s even difficult to know on a metaphysical site such as this, ask yourself who’s who on here? Now ask who if needed should I go to for help?

Learn about it, discuss it and leave it at that unless you are willing to pay the asking price.

Searcher
Love, peace and order.
(Chaos is order waiting to happen)
Title: Re: Demon Worship
Post by: clove99 on February 02, 2013, 04:36:05 PM
You got that backwards, Evocation is external, Invocation is internal :P

What??? I'm confused. Look at the following definition from this site, http://herbalmusings.com/Evocation-vs-Invocation.htm
It's suggesting just the opposite that Evocation is Internal and Invocation is External

"To invoke means to call for the presence of a deity or energy of positive influence, perhaps to guard and strengthen a ritual or spell working. To evoke, on the other hands, means to call upon and draw from the energy within oneself."
Title: Re: Demon Worship
Post by: clove99 on February 02, 2013, 04:52:57 PM
Also, from Angelfire, there is this: Summoning for money, personal power, love/lust or some other positive energy, invoking is desirable."
Title: Re: Demon Worship
Post by: Vilhjalmr on February 03, 2013, 09:35:33 AM
"Will, Desire, and Belief what more do we need to make magic?"

Answer: The assistance of an all-powerful external entity, otherwise it's not magick.

It's not magickal to act in the physical world to obtain or gain something.
This doesn't make much sense to me. Why should the entity have to be all-powerful? If you're asking an all-powerful entity for assistance, that sounds more like prayer/religion. Demons, angels, spirits, elementals, and other such things aren't generally considered to ever be omnipotent. Additionally, magic is simply the alteration of reality through apparently supernatural means (i.e., acting in the non-physical world as well as the physical, in most cases). By definition, it doesn't require external entities.

There is a debate on the use of the word "supernatural" -- if spirits are naturally part of this reality, or if one's rituals or meditations tap into an observable, objective force, then magic simply becomes a science that hasn't been formalized yet. In this sense, then no, no act is magical in the sense of "supernatural".

Quote
With this example, there isn't ANYTHING that "will, desire and belief" can do to make it happen. But an external demon should be able to find that filthy rich person, create the circumstances to bring both people together and convince the rich guy to abandon his riches to the petitioner. Applying for a promotion at work and obtaining it does not require magick. Doing nothing other than the petition itself is all that is required to receive the fulfillment of a wish in magick.
I'm not sure why you think "non-evocational" magic cannot do this, yet a demon can. Your reasoning seems to be that everyone has will, desire, and belief, and these can be used even by non-magicians to achieve goals. The difference, however, is in how they are used: your ordinary fellow uses will, desire, and belief to pick up and fill out a job application; the magician casts a spell using his will, desire, and belief, and then goes to pick up the job application.

So whether or not you think that's efficacious at all, it is different from a non-magical way of doing things. The question that comes to my mind is why you think obtaining external assistance would be so effective -- do you have reason to believe demons actually can and will perform such incredible services for the conjurer? I definitely have a predilection for evocation and ritual, so this is not an idle question; please, share your knowledge. :-)
Title: Re: Demon Worship
Post by: Vilhjalmr on February 03, 2013, 09:53:53 AM
Btw:

What??? I'm confused. Look at the following definition from this site, http://herbalmusings.com/Evocation-vs-Invocation.htm
It's suggesting just the opposite that Evocation is Internal and Invocation is External

"To invoke means to call for the presence of a deity or energy of positive influence, perhaps to guard and strengthen a ritual or spell working. To evoke, on the other hands, means to call upon and draw from the energy within oneself."
I've always read that evoke is external and invoke is internal -- as you might suspect (e- vs. in-) -- but upon looking up the words, I have discovered that invoke and evoke are synonymous in terms of their magic-related definitions.

So it looks like it's actually more up to personal preference. However, I'm sticking with evoke being external, because it seems to be more widely used that way, and because if we look at their original Latin, "evoke" comes from a prefix meaning "out" and a root meaning "to call", and "invoke" is just the opposite -- "to call in".
Title: Re: Demon Worship
Post by: mrblack on February 03, 2013, 12:16:12 PM
I'm still stuck on approach, for instance. The site Angelfire strongly urges to do away with all the traditional views of Demon worship, as well as the fears, and just invite them into your home, your life as a friend, without confining them to triangles within circles and dismissing them.

Finding the success stories in this field is very difficult, and that's what I'm interested in. Where are the people who have had successful evocations to the extent of wish fulfillment?

I think you need to a little bit more digging around to find the people who've had the success stories you are looking for.
Here a link for an example of what could be possible w/ real evocation.
http://headforred.wordpress.com/2006/06/23/the-spirit-pot-operation/

This person house ended up burning to get the money he wanted.

Also, you might want to find a better source of information. The links you've mentioned above are a more wiccan flavour,
I don't know if that is your tradition, but a more grimoire approach should do the trick for someone who is just starting out
in the field.
Title: Re: Demon Worship
Post by: clove99 on February 05, 2013, 05:14:00 PM

This doesn't make much sense to me. Why should the entity have to be all-powerful? If you're asking an all-powerful entity for assistance, that sounds more like prayer/religion. Demons, angels, spirits, elementals, and other such things aren't generally considered to ever be omnipotent. Additionally, magic is simply the alteration of reality through apparently supernatural means (i.e., acting in the non-physical world as well as the physical, in most cases).

So whether or not you think that's efficacious at all, it is different from a non-magical way of doing things. The question that comes to my mind is why you think obtaining external assistance would be so effective -- do you have reason to believe demons actually can and will perform such incredible services for the conjurer? I definitely have a predilection for evocation and ritual, so this is not an idle question; please, share your knowledge. :-)

Demons, for the sake of staying on topic, have limited power, is what you're saying. Then, you're correct that they're not necessarily the best option in order to change reality. Also, an omnipotent being, such as a god, can change reality but may not want to so it can impose lessons on an individual.

The problem with using magick to obtain changes in reality is that as long as the desired effect can occur without magick, it's difficult to measure how much influence the magick has had on the circumstances.
Title: Re: Demon Worship
Post by: clove99 on February 05, 2013, 05:21:33 PM

I think you need to a little bit more digging around to find the people who've had the success stories you are looking for.
Here a link for an example of what could be possible w/ real evocation.
http://headforred.wordpress.com/2006/06/23/the-spirit-pot-operation/

This person house ended up burning to get the money he wanted.

Thanks for the link. I've read through every post on that blog that referred specifically to Bune, and reviewed all of them and didn't see any reference to their "house burning down". Perhaps you can tell me the title of the post where you read that.

What I did read however is that after two years of working with and waiting for Bune to bring them a lump sum of $7 plus million dollars, it didn't happen. Of course, this isn't so according to their perspective, but I saw no indication that any of the financial gains that occurred were attributed to anything other than non-spiritual effort.

I'm glad to have read it though because it's a classic example of how people of blind faith, grossly misperceive cause and effect.

So, to date, I still have not found a single, verifiable testimonial that shows that any form of spiritual work, i.e. summoning of a demon, has furnished a desired outcome.
Title: Re: Demon Worship
Post by: mrblack on February 09, 2013, 06:09:12 PM
@clove99
http://headforred.blogspot.ca/2009/12/and-then-house-caught-on-fire.html

start from that and work your way up. :)
the consensus was, years later in retrospect, is that the demon did the job and the mage didn't specify
his intent properly.

E.A Koettings "Works of Darkness" has accounts of him successfully conjuring a demon and getting the results
he wanted.
Title: Re: Demon Worship
Post by: clove99 on February 10, 2013, 09:38:45 PM
Thanks again. I read about the fire and skimmed through article titles thereafter and paid particular attention to his comments about being in financial crisis. I also noticed the date, December, 2011, and it occurred to me that if I was about to read about a major windfall to the tune of 7 mil., then it came after 5 years (since 2006) of worshipping Bune, among other demons and angels. So, I haven't quite arrived at a point of reading that his demon worship has paid off, but will look further when I have more time...and energy.

I definitely appreciate your help, though, Mr. Black!

@clove99
http://headforred.blogspot.ca/2009/12/and-then-house-caught-on-fire.html

start from that and work your way up. :)
the consensus was, years later in retrospect, is that the demon did the job and the mage didn't specify
his intent properly.

E.A Koettings "Works of Darkness" has accounts of him successfully conjuring a demon and getting the results
he wanted.
Title: Re: Demon Worship
Post by: Vilhjalmr on February 16, 2013, 09:43:23 AM
Demons, for the sake of staying on topic, have limited power, is what you're saying. Then, you're correct that they're not necessarily the best option in order to change reality.
Yes. But demons are supposed to be powerful; John R. King IV (http://imperialarts.livejournal.com/) claims to have been able to do such things as cause demons to produce earthquakes on command. His Livejournal is an interesting read, and he's helpful "in person" (i.e., in e-mail), but I have known two other folks -- Theodore Voland and Loki at sacredmagick -- who attempted the same rituals using almost all of the same materials, lacking only things Mr. King said wouldn't matter if missing, and obtained absolutely nothing.

I know one of the individuals mentioned later had some success with another grimoire, but no evocation to visibility still. I think to summon a demon is about as powerful as any other valid magical technique, and moreso than most, but really not the answer to material problems. At best, all magic seems limited to relatively small effects; most scientific evidence for psychic powers rests on small differences from chance in probabilistic tests, and telekinesis seems able to affect only small objects -- if that. I expect traditional magic to have a similar scope.

Also, an omnipotent being, such as a god, can change reality but may not want to so it can impose lessons on an individual.
So they say, though one would think that an omnipotent being would have better ways of imparting knowledge.

Quote
The problem with using magick to obtain changes in reality is that as long as the desired effect can occur without magick, it's difficult to measure how much influence the magick has had on the circumstances.
That is exactly the problem, and why I have always placed such emphasis on obtaining material results I cannot reasonably ascribe to anything else. I don't think there is an easy or quick way to do so, though.
Title: Re: Demon Worship
Post by: Draconic Feathers on August 29, 2013, 02:27:42 AM
I'm bringing this thread from the dead because there's a lot of biased talk here.

First off, lets establish something - evocation magick is evocation magick. It's not "demon worship" or only demon conjuring or whatever. It pertains to the evocation and working with beings. Period. Angels, dæmons, elementals, god-forms, intelligences, etc etc.

I bring this up for a reason. Beings such as Bune or Marbas, ie, the Goetia, are not simply "demons". The grimoires that provide the information we're all familar with were solely the work of very very biased, French Catholic Priests, who obtained manuscripts pertaining to the magicks of the region, magicks for working with the genius locii, local pagan Gods, (and some powerful Arabic Djinns), ie the "Dæmons". Recall Plato's Dæmon, the equivalent to the Holy Guardian Angel? That term was not exclusive; it was to describe a particular type of being.

Yes we're all familiar with the Olympian pantheon, and perhaps the Vedic as well, but there's many more pantheons beyond that, especially spread across the Old World. These beings were not falling in line with the established theocracy, so the Priests labeled them all as demons, and went as far as to say they needed to be tortured and only had value as slaves you could summon. Does that sound right or compassionate to you? Does that sound like something in line with the Divine Order?

No. It does not to me. And the only reason that stuff was maintained and divulged to the world in that way, was because of the fact that our big magical revival, Golden-Dawn era was also during the Victorian era. There was a lot of repressed psychological damage going on in that time period, (all due to their social constraints but I'm not getting into that right now).

It's a matter of a simple look into history. The world was all pagan and diverse, Rome comes along and unites everyone under an empire, then Constantine's rule eventually makes Christianity the dominant religion, and renders all Paganism illegal. If a religion is illegal that obviously means it's going to be, and already has been, persecuted.

So if it's persecuted...then Goddesses like Astarte (Ishtar) become masculine demons like Astaroth. Astarte is the cultural basis for the Aphrodite, or Venus, Archetype. While the other "demons", not only of the Goetia but of many other grimoires of that time period, may not be immediately recognizable as a God, let alone one we are immediately aware of or familiar with, that does not mean they immediately must be some nasty terrible infernal being.

Now that doesn't go to say that they can't have vitriolic qualities at times...but hey, if you were a spirit-form being of some sort, God, Egregore, whatever, and were observed by many psychic humans for centuries as a demon to be exploited, after originally having a loving relationship with your land and people for quite some time, wouldn't you think by the laws of the ethers and metaphysics you would kinda become something like one? They were taken from all the different realms and places they were accustomed to, and tossed into "Tartarus", the Abyss, aka became Cthonic. Though I must admit there are a number included in the grimoire that seem to actually originate from the infernal realms...but just because a being is "there", accessible in some resource, it does not mean you are obliged to work with it.

In regards to their nature and disposition, we must also take into consideration the fact that a lot of these beings are really old. They not only come from different times, but have a lot of accumulated wisdom and experience. Some just have less patience for foolhardy, possibly greedy mortals who think highly of themselves. Some are just some variety of a wrathful deity. None of them appreciate torture of any kind.



No matter how much you discuss the theoritical aspects of the various approaches to magic, it still comes down to the spirits. We all know that there are spirits of the wind, air, rain, etc.. There are spirits that are in charge of every single aspect of the world and our lives, they dictate who does what, depending on their actions.

Persist enough and you'll be given the secrets, the ability to do anything. Be the best quarterback in football, be a mathematical genius, be the best chef, be the best stock trader, etc., etc., including being the best magician, where all you literally have to do is say the word and it will be accomplished.

Look, this is it, whether you want to debate, this or that, it matters not. It comes down to who goes that extra mile, he/she who persists will get what he/she desires in any field/.

You are the student and the spirits are the teachers. Even if you are the teacher, the spirit above you is your teacher. You can not escape this fact. You can try and debate your way around it, but you'll only be lying to yourself by doing it
I'm afraid I do not entirely agree with you on this. I've seen people "persist" for years at something, and they were still only mediocre. I've heard a handful of statements over the course of my life from certain people who "stuck with" something for most of their life and yet they were still only "better than" the majority rather than being anywhere close to "the best" at that thing.

In my opinion, to be The Best requires three things: Passion, Aptitude, and Effort.

Without the passion, you won't want to learn all of the little things that turn "good" into "amazing" let alone the best. Passion makes you WANT to achieve great things in your field, makes you WANT to overcome the challenges that come your way, makes you WANT to continue going without even remembering that "giving up" is an option because you WANT to do this.

Without aptitude, there will always be hurdles in your way that you must constantly work at overcoming. And not always the good hurdles that you can make gains from; sometimes it's just the annoying hurdles that hinder you and nothing else. Those with aptitude can "flow" into the role more effortlessly. As competition swimmers know, that little bit of resistance from in-aptitude can cause a relatively big difference in outcome.

But without effort, you won't make any progress at all regardless of how much passion or aptitude you have. Those who have the greatest passion and the greatest aptitude will make the greatest gains when they put in as much effort as they can, in my views.

Aptitude makes some people better at something to start, but with enough effort everyone becomes equal for a long time, right up until you get to the higher echelons. Then, the passion and aptitude once again allow some people to stride ahead while the rest fall behind. That being said, I do believe there are ways to "adapt" one's self to gain aptitude as well, though the "how" of it is a fuzzy concept for me, so it's not like I believe there's a permanent divide between those with aptitude and those without.

~Steve


You don't get what he's saying here. The spirit in question can grant you the aptitude in said field, if it's a field the spirit rules over.


And for the record, Bune has gotten my friend a job. My friend was also actually trying to find, and was ready to have, a job. Bune keeps helping him out in a pinch when he needs it, but he's not "wealthy". Perhaps in the sense that he has peace of mind about his finances, but he's not rolling in the dough.

I have also had other spirits do some things for me as well. Buer helped with a healing and surgery. Other beings have helped show me things, learn things. They each have their time and purpose, and tend to bring themselves to your attention based on affinity, need or some spiritual-growth value. Some can be familiars from past lives even, popping up when the time is right.

I wouldn't say not to pursue evoking one actively, but if you do so, do it with intent and purpose, not just randomly to flex your summoning muscles. Traditional Angels are better for that, they're more merciful and you are likely to squeeze a general blessing out of them if you didn't know what else to do anyway (if you're sincere enough anyways). But if you're practicing magick enough to have summoning-muscles to flex, you should already be wise enough to have an intent and purpose behind your exercises.


So, as already established, I personally know of magicians who have achieved successful results with this type of evocation magick, eschewing the high and mighty bind and torture system. I have also seen magicians get backfire from working with them too. Such is the nature of spirits of a more volatile or "dense" nature. They are not as directly merciful as most celestial or higher realm beings may be, but they only lash out as much as is warranted by the magician. If you're out of line, they will let you know. And being "out of line" could be a strong impurity or imbalance in your psyche that you are either unaware of, or do not consider a problem of any import to your magical workings. This is why in the traditional GD/Rosicrucian initiation system, such magick was only reserved for the Adepts. The Adepts have attained levels of Self Mastery, and could maintain themselves enough to work with such powerful beings. Powerful, as in they will reflect your own essence back to you at a magnified rate with high velocity.

It's actually quite Buddhist, perhaps Zen, in a way, when you think about it. Because in reality, that's what's needed to have success with these kind of beings. Wu wei, Mushin, a state of emptiness and honesty with self, integrity, inner quite, fortitude, discipline.


Compassion.

Empathy.

Self Knowledge.


Not just dogma and text.

Title: Re: Demon Worship
Post by: Mind_Bender on August 29, 2013, 04:06:38 AM
I think Melchizedek and Steve were debating about how spirits are the agents of magic itself-religious versus a more 'atheist' results driven magic.

Etymology from a Qabalistic-Qliphotic harmony is a great way to justify worship or close relations with demonic forces and not be considered bad or harmful to self or other- Kether means Crown and is ruled over by Metatron, the scribe of Yahweh, and is ruled over by Satan (ha-satan, adversary) and Moloch (literally, 'king'- you can see this in the name Adramelech- 'king of fire'), and ha-satan is not simply 'adversary' but a station as well (a very high one it would seem). The demons of the Qliphoth, and many of the Goetia, names simply mean King or Lord of this or that region. Lilith, Sammael, Asmodeus and Lucifuge seem to be the only trully demonic beings of the Eleven Spheres of the Qliphoth, and Asmodeus may still considered an angel to some, although quite fierce.

When it comes to evocation, I think it is unnecesary to go through all of that ritual, especially if you are using the Goetic spirits and/or (espcially) Qliphoth as a spiritual discipline. Using an archetypal model of the universe, you can open the portals of the Qliphoth, Qabala, Nine Worlds of Yggdrasil, etc, within your own body and psyche uniting these forces as one force. Either path you go, left or right, it would seem essential to explore these dark tunnels as aspects of self- as a 'light' practitioner you get a taste of Gods wisdom and wrath and the trials of Christ, as a 'dark' practitioner you get a taste of being a god and taking control of a mini world or universe and even some companions along the way. Also, by not evoking you are saving yourself the risk of letting a demon loose on other from improper protocol and only place yourself in danger by internalizing these powers and intelligences. And somebody the does believe in the actual consciousness of spirits, medieval evocation just seems mean.

An interesting note and a possible look into the ancient war of religions: Ashera is the Hebrew form of Asteroth as a celestial archetype, and the Sanskrit word for demon is ashura. We have the word devil, which is strikingly similar to the Sanskrit word deva, a celestial or beneficient spirit. The great thing about looking at the Qliphoth in this light, one, takes much reservation and fear out of the proces
Title: Re: Demon Worship
Post by: Draconic Feathers on September 01, 2013, 03:29:41 PM
I think Melchizedek and Steve were debating about how spirits are the agents of magic itself-religious versus a more 'atheist' results driven magic.

Etymology from a Qabalistic-Qliphotic harmony is a great way to justify worship or close relations with demonic forces and not be considered bad or harmful to self or other- Kether means Crown and is ruled over by Metatron, the scribe of Yahweh, and is ruled over by Satan (ha-satan, adversary) and Moloch (literally, 'king'- you can see this in the name Adramelech- 'king of fire'), and ha-satan is not simply 'adversary' but a station as well (a very high one it would seem). The demons of the Qliphoth, and many of the Goetia, names simply mean King or Lord of this or that region. Lilith, Sammael, Asmodeus and Lucifuge seem to be the only trully demonic beings of the Eleven Spheres of the Qliphoth, and Asmodeus may still considered an angel to some, although quite fierce.

When it comes to evocation, I think it is unnecesary to go through all of that ritual, especially if you are using the Goetic spirits and/or (espcially) Qliphoth as a spiritual discipline. Using an archetypal model of the universe, you can open the portals of the Qliphoth, Qabala, Nine Worlds of Yggdrasil, etc, within your own body and psyche uniting these forces as one force. Either path you go, left or right, it would seem essential to explore these dark tunnels as aspects of self- as a 'light' practitioner you get a taste of Gods wisdom and wrath and the trials of Christ, as a 'dark' practitioner you get a taste of being a god and taking control of a mini world or universe and even some companions along the way. Also, by not evoking you are saving yourself the risk of letting a demon loose on other from improper protocol and only place yourself in danger by internalizing these powers and intelligences. And somebody the does believe in the actual consciousness of spirits, medieval evocation just seems mean.

An interesting note and a possible look into the ancient war of religions: Ashera is the Hebrew form of Asteroth as a celestial archetype, and the Sanskrit word for demon is ashura. We have the word devil, which is strikingly similar to the Sanskrit word deva, a celestial or beneficient spirit. The great thing about looking at the Qliphoth in this light, one, takes much reservation and fear out of the proces

Well in regards to the "atheist" approach, usually supported by Crowely's theory that the Goes were "in your head" (another result of the perspective of one living in the Victorian era, in my opinion), this blog post has a bit of good brainfood on the matter...

http://www.inominandum.com/blog/it-is-neither-in-your-head-nor-out-of-it/

However I think anyone who has had spirits come to them, and affect their lives heavily, such as myself, without or prior to practicing any form of magick, can attest for their existence.

And yes, I'd totally agree on Asmodeus and co. being explicitly infernal...that's kinda what I was referring to in my previous post when I admitted that some, are in fact, of such nature...experience denotes such...though, one experienced sorcerer once told me that the "higher", or perhaps Angelic, side of Asmodeus is that of a chivalrous Knight, more or less, versed in gentle and poetic ways. I've only experience with the wrathful form...
Title: Re: Demon Worship
Post by: Mind_Bender on September 01, 2013, 10:07:49 PM
I've had several forms of spirit contact throughout my life prior to magic as well. I mainly work with spirits I feel support me or teach me valuable lessons, this is where demonic worship or magical devotion, even of the trully infernal type, comes in to play and I think is important to embrace. I view most spiritual demons much like the Protectors of the Dharma or Loki. Although they are understood to be evil they still play a crucial role in the development of existence and creation, like Loki, or just so fierce and frightening they come off as evil, like the Protectors, who are simply upholding a universal teaching.
Title: Re: Demon Worship
Post by: Steve on September 02, 2013, 01:57:38 PM
Draconic Feathers:

Alright, allow me to state something that I missed previously: if someone else is doing the work for you, then you are not the one that becomes The Best.

If my friend does my homework for me, and I get a perfect score on that homework, am I the one that is capable? No. Can I ever be "The Best" just by getting perfect scores on my homework when someone else is doing the homework? No.

The examples you gave were in the results, as were the examples that Melchizedek gave: "Be the best quarterback in football, be a mathematical genius, be the best chef, be the best stock trader, etc., etc., including being the best magician, where all you literally have to do is say the word and it will be accomplished.". Melchizedek basically stated that so long as you achieve the results, that means you are the best; you stopped short of saying that, instead just recognizing that the spirit can grant aptitude. The problem being that if the spiritual entity is granting you the capability, then you're not The Best: the spirit is The Best. This is why we say in martial arts that the master cannot do the work for the student. The master cannot take the student's arms and make the student punch at a master level and still give the credit to the student.

It's not a bad thing to get help, but when we're talking about "*being* The Best" (which is what I was replying to in Melchizedek's post), as opposed to "obtaining the best results", then it becomes a personal thing that is invalidated if you're getting help from others.

Melchizedek stated that spirits can make you the best, when he meant to say that they can get you the best results. I didn't make the reason for my reply clear in my previous post.

However, Melchizedek also kind of flirts around the issue of spirits as teachers, rather than spirits doing things for you, and that the student would then become The Best so long as they "persist enough", and that was his focus; the idea that persistence was the key. In that case, my previous post about what it takes to be the best still applies, regardless of whether you have no teacher, a human teacher, or a spiritual teacher.

Unless all you care about is the results. In which case, yes, you would appear to be the best to everyone who doesn't see the spirit pulling the strings behind the scenes.

~Steve
Title: Re: Demon Worship
Post by: Draconic Feathers on September 05, 2013, 08:53:42 PM
Draconic Feathers:

Alright, allow me to state something that I missed previously: if someone else is doing the work for you, then you are not the one that becomes The Best.

If my friend does my homework for me, and I get a perfect score on that homework, am I the one that is capable? No. Can I ever be "The Best" just by getting perfect scores on my homework when someone else is doing the homework? No.

The examples you gave were in the results, as were the examples that Melchizedek gave: "Be the best quarterback in football, be a mathematical genius, be the best chef, be the best stock trader, etc., etc., including being the best magician, where all you literally have to do is say the word and it will be accomplished.". Melchizedek basically stated that so long as you achieve the results, that means you are the best; you stopped short of saying that, instead just recognizing that the spirit can grant aptitude. The problem being that if the spiritual entity is granting you the capability, then you're not The Best: the spirit is The Best. This is why we say in martial arts that the master cannot do the work for the student. The master cannot take the student's arms and make the student punch at a master level and still give the credit to the student.

It's not a bad thing to get help, but when we're talking about "*being* The Best" (which is what I was replying to in Melchizedek's post), as opposed to "obtaining the best results", then it becomes a personal thing that is invalidated if you're getting help from others.

Melchizedek stated that spirits can make you the best, when he meant to say that they can get you the best results. I didn't make the reason for my reply clear in my previous post.

However, Melchizedek also kind of flirts around the issue of spirits as teachers, rather than spirits doing things for you, and that the student would then become The Best so long as they "persist enough", and that was his focus; the idea that persistence was the key. In that case, my previous post about what it takes to be the best still applies, regardless of whether you have no teacher, a human teacher, or a spiritual teacher.

Unless all you care about is the results. In which case, yes, you would appear to be the best to everyone who doesn't see the spirit pulling the strings behind the scenes.

~Steve

Alright, I hear you there. There's nothing wrong with desiring to maintain Integrity in one's path and life. However, that said, sometimes the spirits really do have something to offer there...if you're trying to be great at something in a way that might otherwise be "cheating", you'd have karmic backlash coming your way for sure.

Yet, at the same time, something that seems underhanded to some, could be a cherished opportunity to others. I would know since I myself do not come from a privileged background. That said I don't have access to many of the resources that I wish I did, and many others do, have access to, in regards to developing my desired skill-set and ability in certain fields. Resources such as schools, mentors, supplies/materials, a proper space and environment to learn and grow unimpeded, raw funding for all of the above and more, etc...

In a scenario for one who is predisposed towards certain areas but lacks the fundamental support and resources to pursue mastery in said areas, is it really such a blow to one's integrity to use magick to get some much needed help? Does not having what other people have due to monetary reasons, and seeking out extra assistance, make one "less great", intrinsically?

Sometimes we just simply have roadblocks too, and need a helping hand...what if a poet is having writer's block and calls upon Phenix to lend a creative hand? I've never worked with the being but Phenix could either just magically endow some creativity, or perhaps shift some things around in the poet's life (internally or externally) that removes whatever it was that was blocking the poet's creativity. Does that make him less of a sincere artist?

While results do not always connote who is "The Best", I must say that not just any magician can conjure up beings and successfully have them carry out the desired duties and tasks, including those of education and improvement. Perhaps there is something here to being a "better" magician (not the "Best" in said field), by being able to accomplish such long-term goals.
Title: Re: Demon Worship
Post by: Steve on September 06, 2013, 08:07:39 PM
Quote
In a scenario for one who is predisposed towards certain areas but lacks the fundamental support and resources to pursue mastery in said areas, is it really such a blow to one's integrity to use magick to get some much needed help? Does not having what other people have due to monetary reasons, and seeking out extra assistance, make one "less great", intrinsically?
My apologies if I came off this way, but I don't really care how a person "gets things done" if that is their focus. I'm a purist when it comes to concepts such as "What makes a person The Best", but in the real world I have no qualms whatsoever with a person making their goal in life to be something like "getting the best stuff" instead of "being The Best". That's a personal choice that each person makes for themselves, and there's no question of integrity in trying to get the best stuff. However, if a person wants to earnestly be The Best, then does it really count if someone else does the work for them? I mean, sure, you can get some forms of help, but there's an iffy line where too much help becomes "the help is The Best" instead of "the person is The Best".

I'm pretty sure most people aren't going to be too concerned with a frivolous concept like "being The Best" while their fundamental needs aren't being taken care of, or if they have more important goals and desires to achieve. But for those who do wish to take up such a frivolous goal, they need to set their own standard. My purist standard doesn't accept much in the way of help (teaching, guidance, and auxiliary help don't really get in the way of the integrity), but other people are other people; they live their own lives and decide for themselves when they're happy with their path.

As an example, if someone wants to be the best painter in the world, they're going to need paints and canvas and time to practice. Paints and canvas require money, but if the painter requires a full time job to pay for those things, then that job is going to leave less time to get better at painting. In this case, does it hurt the integrity of "being The Best Painter" if someone sponsors the painter and basically pays for the painter's entire set of needs; food, shelter, paints, canvas, etc? Not really. Not in my mind at least. Does it hurt the integrity if the painter gets a tutor? No. So long as the painter can stand on his own two feet when it comes to making his own paintings at the point where he wants to be recognized as The Best, then it doesn't matter if he had a tutor help him get there. But if the tutor is mixing his paints, and picking out his brushes for him, and guiding him on where and how to paint *during the period where the painter wants the recognition*, then I'd say that painter is not at the point of being able to be recognized as The Best.

Now, to take it back to my original post to Melchizedek: make both the sponsor and tutor each spirits, and my point remains the same. So long as they only provide auxiliary help, then they don't ruin the integrity. However, if they're doing most of the work that's core to the subject of what the person is trying to be recognized for, then they ruin the integrity as the spirits are The Best and the human is just a puppet. If the human is happy and okay with that, then that's fine because that's their life and their choice. But I would still never recognize that human as being The Best so long as I knew that the spirits were doing the stuff for him.

The difference is that if the spirits decide the human is no longer worthwhile, they can up and leave him and the human will instantly lose every aspect of capability that the spirits provided. If the human earned the skill himself, then the spirits could leave and he would still be able to paint to the same level. In the martial arts, the comparison would be between teaching a person how to kill with their own body, versus skipping that and just giving the person a gun "because it's easier and you don't need all that training". If you have the skill yourself, it's difficult (though not impossible, of course) to just up and spontaneously lose that skill. But if his power is produced entirely in the gun then if he loses the gun, the guy loses his power. And the gun is so much easier to lose/leave-at-home-that-one-time-you-need-it/have-stolen/break/jam/run-out-of-ammo/etc than, say, your body.

"Perhaps there is something here to being a "better" magician". Being "better than I currently am" is a much more reasonable goal for everyone :)

~Steve
Title: Re: Demon Worship
Post by: Castleton on May 29, 2017, 08:20:28 AM
Tips on evocation before you start: ......Don't.

    Many magicians have worked with demons and they have all formed the same opinion: No matter how nice, gentle or wise a demon may appear, it is still a Demon and eventually will act like one.  There is a reason why grimoires tell the magician to treat a Demon like a bastard slave with insults and curses.  From personal experience I can tell you that every demon shows its face eventually.  The very fact that you have worked with this being without the proper use of a ritual evocation shows that you lack the magickal experience to be evoking in the first place.  Why on Earth would you deal with a demon without the proper safe-guards established in ritual?  there is nothing a demon can do that an Angel or planetary spirit can't.  Chances are the creature has already started working on your mind, though you will of course be totally unaware of it until it is too late, assuming the being you have been experiencing is indeed the demon you were hoping to contact (which it probably isn't).  Demons are master decievers!  they are the best actors the universe knows.  I'm well aware that despite any warnings you receive you will still probably continue on with your plan, but know this: If you had fully developed clairvoyance, you would be able to see that creature's real form, and it would frighten you the likes of which no other thing in this physical world could do. 

   Basically, use some common sense.  A demon is a DEMON.  There is a reason it is called that.  Only after a few years of experience in evoking other beings should the infernal realms be dealt with by the magician.  If you evoke this demon and the demon actually shows (unlikely unless you have a great deal of experience.  An elemental posing as the demon will probably show) then you would have found yourself in a hole that is very hard to get out of.

OK, from my perspective, I understand that there are are certain laws at work here and that supposedly a demon must respect these laws of protection ect., but as you just stated, they can and usually do betray your trust because they are inherently evil. So, do you really think that sitting in the middle of encircled pentagram will ultimately protect you from psychic or even physical attack? I don't. They are lawbreakers by nature.

However, I do agree with your attitude towards these creatures. It's the only way to gain their respect. Otherwise they view you like a weak little school girl. That said, ultimately the rituals are to simply to open a gate for communcation. Once the gate is open it comes down to will over will. Or better stated, the Master/Slave relationship. In any case, there is still a price to be paid. They justifiably require payment of some sort for services rendered. Because just like us, their time is precious to them. They are agenda-driven and if they feel that they have wasted their time with you then there may be hell to pay.