Author Topic: The question  (Read 2758 times)

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January 04, 2004, 09:05:21 PM
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The question:

If the teaching is partial and it cannot lead to the truth – why teach at all? If the self is an illusion, perpetuated by an energy within ourselves, if all we know within is an illusion, a fallacy, what is the use in keep the knowledge of this self? What is the point in keeping any knowledge, if all knowledge acts as a hindrance to the truth? If truth is that of silence, of love, of peace, of freedom – then what purpose has the word describing these things? If the words are not the described, then what is the point in describing? If knowledge is the thing that creates mental imagery – then why keep it? If mental imagery is the source of fear, of illusion, of desire, of darkness – then why keep that? If the life we currently lead is false, then why continue leading it? If everything of body, of mind, is the illusion that creates the limitation to the actual truth – then why work with that? Why give that any attention at all? To give it attention means to listen to it, who is listening – for to listen is the imagery of self and thus, an imagery of bondage! Why listen, why do anything at all, if it is just going to serve, that which is false, that which is an illusion, that which is a lie? Any thought of self is serving to create another image, by which slavery, isolation, burdens can be born – thus why hear them at all? What is there to know, if knowing and knowledge are forms of imagery, are partial truths, not the whole, thus falsity? Why give this? If to seek is the work of fear, to gather security, if seeking is the known trying to gather the unknown, why seek at all? If any activity born from mind and body, is that of the illusion, why serve either the body or the mind?

If the truth itself, comes when all these things end – mind, thought, body, feeling – when all activity of self is dead – because it is that of the illusion that prevents truth, what activity of self is required then? There is nothing that self can do now, except die. For if all activity of self is that of the illusion, then why continue? Psychological death not the physical, but the psychological death, that ends all the illusion, that leaves the space, that creates the love – that ends the tyranny created by separation and false imagery.

Be well.

January 04, 2004, 09:13:58 PM
Reply #1

neijia

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so many questions and yet i can only think of one answer:  hopefully we come that much closer to the truth.  if that is your want out of life, the truth, then come closer to it and search for it.  otherwise,  it is too different for every person.
"If you make yourself more than just a man...if you devote yourself to an ideal...you become something else, entirely."
-Batman Begins trailer
 
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January 04, 2004, 10:55:34 PM
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Neti Neti

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lol, I cover all of that in my book. It's called "No-self". Very long. >.<.  Took me monthes to write it. PM me if you want a copy. (it's free!)

But, as long as there is a self, there is a no-self. Without the self, there is not a no-self. This is the thing. You have to rise above the concepts of self and no-self. You have to reach a state of existance where you exist; but at the same time you don't. As with all things, you must rise above them. Once you see self, you rise into no-self. This is natural in the enlightment path. But, you must rise more. For even with no-self and the awarness of nothing, the self still exists. They are not seperate. :)
People only see what they are prepared to see.

Give all to love; obey thy heart.

Insist on yourself; never imitate... Every great man is unique.

Nothing can bring you peace but yourself.

Speak what you think today in words as hard as cannon-balls and tomorrow speak what tomorrow thinks in hard words again, though it contradict every thing you said today.[/I]
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January 05, 2004, 02:44:58 AM
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mystic

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always void, have some excellently deep thoughts...here, have a cow man  :cow:

Quote

If the teaching is partial and it cannot lead to the truth why teach at all? If the self is an illusion, perpetuated by an energy within ourselves, if all we know within is an illusion, a fallacy, what is the use in keep the knowledge of this self?

I realize that self is an illusion perpetuated by energy, our entire life, everything we see is nothing more than an illusion. bohm proves this point very well by creating the holographic theory of the universe. When we go to school and such, we are given a zealous amount of information in our life. It is intriguing to discover that sometimes the information is inaccurate and very wrong. I rather enjoy proving information given incorrectly, however this doesn't answer the question.
I believe as though we (humans) are here for one purpose. To finish the objective we haven't finished in the life before that, or the life before even that. It is, in a lot of words, a reset button. The knowledge we gain from teachers (some) and books and such, is not accurate. the only thing that is accurate is the information that we receive from the greatest teacher, that is life. In a sense, that is the knowledge we need for passing over. However, in order to survive in this day in age, we also need the other facets of information. For survival. Fallacy, illusion, yes. But also, even the largest sharade is needed for balance.
This false information we gain, then will lead us to a greater truth, when we are ready to understand it. that is my take on it, at least

January 05, 2004, 01:35:18 PM
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Neti Neti

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That's right. ^_^ Threw false knowelge, truth is known. Threw aquired knowelege, inner knowelge is saught.
People only see what they are prepared to see.

Give all to love; obey thy heart.

Insist on yourself; never imitate... Every great man is unique.

Nothing can bring you peace but yourself.

Speak what you think today in words as hard as cannon-balls and tomorrow speak what tomorrow thinks in hard words again, though it contradict every thing you said today.[/I]
Ralph Waldo Emerson

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January 05, 2004, 06:10:12 PM
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Imagery is division:

The cause of human suffering is the denial of the actual root of ones being, which is perpetuated by the false imagery we hold of ourselves. The images of ourselves deny the root that is, even this note is an image of self, and thus is denying the root. When the imagery is seen as false, there is no suffering, no burden, no anything. There is just what is. Thus, to die psychologically means to die to all separate images of self that we have obtained over the many years, our memories, our likes, prejudices, our knowledge even - until it reveals the truth within ourselves. Fact remains - fear, desire, suffering, sorrow, puruit of pleasure - all these occur within the imagery of the self, perpetuated by the energy itself, so that something can realise its falseness, because to say that self has realised its falseness, is to live within its imagery and thus to live in denial of truth.

Therefore - when the separate self, that is apart from the whole dies, there is nothing known as fear, as sorrow, as despair, as desire, because these where all born from a separate imagery, they where born of falsity. Thus what is true, lies beyond the imagery of thought, the imagery of who we think we are, when the imagery dies, what we actually are is born. Suddenly, the world is clear - the declaration of self is again imagery, thus we, must be watchful of what dwells within, what affixes itself to our being - if we become an image again, we suddenly become an illusion, a separate self, and the pursuit of pleasure, desire, fear and all these things come into being again. Thus, the actual and what has to be done is to listen when things are born, see its falseness and be done with it. The thing is though, the thought then and there is an image that will cause resistance, thus it is not something to be lived by.

Do you see? All wisdoms, all thoughts, become images the self is associated with, thus are associates of division and separation - therefore, all thoughts of self deny the actual essence that is. The truth is you, but you are not it, for you to say you are it, is to live as an image, a memory, an idea and that is not actual. See the falsity within, which is your imagery that divides and separates you from the actual root. As soon as it becomes a piece of knowledge, it becomes an image within, thus the image becomes the thing lived by and not the actual root. Thus the knowledge of the root is a denial of the root, the imagery is all false, but the actual holds no image, and simply is. Suffering is because we are. When we are not, where can suffering be? Without the image to suffer, who is suffering?

Be well.

January 05, 2004, 07:51:43 PM
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Neti Neti

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Just To elaborate somemore...

The image is "I" btw; for without the "I" the he, she, it, etc. does not exist. But then again, they do. It's just no one is aware to be aware of seperate objects. The thing is, and always have been, is to stop thinking you are seperate. It's just a thought. Thoughts are things, and things are thoughts. Drop the thing that is the thought.

Thoughts are the mind. In reality, there is no "mind". The mind gives itself an illuision. All there is is thoughts. And not a continuaty of thoughts. Each thought is broken up.

It becoems pointless to argue however. Once you realize the self, you realize the no-self. Even calling it the "No-self" gives it imagry. Which as Void has already pointed out as a falcity. So, you have to go beyind it.  Then everything becomes an expression of self; but not the seperate self that you are now, but one of the source. In truth, there is one center, and one center only.  But, to call it no-self is correct, since in all essence it isn't a "self" at all. But, why do "I" still say "I"? When self realized, why say "I" at all? Point blank, it makes things easier. It is used to identify with the body. Since most of the world is still in the "I", you have to use the "I" to communicate with them. Other than that, it it pointless.

People have been trying to reach this state by commiting sucide, body percings, and other forms of body mutilization. I will always defend the body; never has it done wrong. All the worlds problems lie in the mind, all your problems do too. Race, gender, sex, etc., is all in the mind. You say "Im fat", "Im horney", "Im this and im that". Does the body say this? No. It comes from this "I". Neti Neti means "Neither this nor That". It descriebes something totally wordless. Never has the body done wrong, it never will. It only does as it should. Never will the body do wrong. It is a spiritual vehical. Although we all use it as otherwise.

But, back to my orgional point. There is no sense arguing it. If if's were but's and maybe's, we would all be in the maybe's and but's, but what is, just is, without the if.Yes, it is something to give you a headache, but more honestly, its something to destroy you head all together.
People only see what they are prepared to see.

Give all to love; obey thy heart.

Insist on yourself; never imitate... Every great man is unique.

Nothing can bring you peace but yourself.

Speak what you think today in words as hard as cannon-balls and tomorrow speak what tomorrow thinks in hard words again, though it contradict every thing you said today.[/I]
Ralph Waldo Emerson

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January 05, 2004, 08:47:07 PM
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It is the images we hold within ourselves, identify ourselves as, act from that create the destruction within the world. Arguments are created over images and the whole fiasco of proving this and that point become apparent. My image VS your image - the knowledge ive learned, VS what you have seen - thus conflict is born. The images within ourselves create conflict, they create suffering - comparing themselves to one another, jousting with one another to gain a vantage point. The wrongs, the rights, the prejudices, the judgements, the things we have learned, all battle within themselves, creating more and more trouble. But fact remains - why do they joust at all? Why do they compare? Why do they create conflict? Why do they suffer? Because in the inner workings, these images are desiring something, desiring some sort of satisfaction through their existance.

A sense of pleasure can be born through learning and reaffirming facts we have learned cant it? The whole motive of desire, the images, is to gain pleasure. We derrive a sense of pleasure in conquering things within ourselves - to beat a problem, to realise an error, we derrive a sense of pleasure from this dont we? So our images duel with one another, one conquering the other, feeding the self knowledge one has obtained within, feeding the falsified image we hold of ourselves - feeding the illusions within that create a blockade to the truth that actually is. Fact remains is that these images are irrelevant, to reaffirm them holds no real purpose, for the purpose of them is to create conflict, suffering, burden, desire - all because the illusions of this separate self, fear non existance. If these images do not exist, we are love, peace, freedom, goodness, gentleness and so on.

But so long as these images remain, we are jousting with life, for a better position, for more pleasures, for more power, to conquer, to be an authority, to gain more knowledge, more more more - our desire propels us forward - all the while creating more and more suffering within ourselves, for when we do not get what we want we are sorrowful, thus our images, our desires, our fears promote sorrow - so the whole idea of people gratifying their desires so they dont feel sorrow, so they dont feel anguish, so they dont feel left out on the edge, basically, inspired by the insecurity caused by feeling sorrowful, which comes from the fact that desire cannot have, so the fact that desire cannot have, creates sorrow, which inspires fear - the fear of not being something - not being powerful, not being wise, not being as a whole - so inspired by desire, fear, sorrow, in our pursuits for pleasure - we create more and more trouble for ourselves, just so we can gratify a falsified image we hold within ourselves, an image that we have not observed, but further fed as we have lived.

So long as our images go unnoticed within, they will continue to create burdens, they will continue to create disorder within the world. When the images vanish, suddenly there is order, there is peace, there is love, a sense of goodness within the world. Because finally, all the images have come to rest, purely because the truth, the root of this energy, has come to be - which sounds a little philosophical - but it is a fact. The energy that is all things, has come to rest within our being - the image of the energy coming to rest will also prevent it from resting, thus there is nothing to say about the energy and its workings within, for these would become images that would prevent it from being and thus falsify our existance once more, where we would joust for a better position, to act fearfully, to avoid what it is we are actually dealing with. An image. To say that the energy is to blame for our falsified images, creates an image of a self that is being persecuted, that is being judged, that is being condemned - but is it not the image of the self that is bringing the condemnation, the suffering, the burdens within?

We humans are most quick to condemn the surroundings for our inner problems - but factually seen - it is our own self imagery, our own psychological hindrances we hold dear within ourselves, that cause all the suffering, the burdens, the trouble within this world. Without imagery, would their be war? Would their be gangs? Would their be violence? Would their be poverty? We dont know do we, because none of us have ever lived without images - a few have, but most have not. Fact is that this energy has its own kind of intelligence, its own truth, that is not bound to imagery, or ways of the mind as such. To conceptualise it is to bring it about as an image, which destroys the truth of it. Concepts of the energy, really say nothing about it, for the words become images that people live by - thus the words become the lies that deceive the person from actually seeing. To identify within ourselves the course of the images, when they are born, when they die - who is it that is identifying? We cannot identify something without knowledge, without knowledge - who exists?

To know what is going on within you, is a limitation. But it cannot be known it is a limitation, without knowing what is going on. The images are born, then they die. The act of seeking out the original image, why it keeps coming forth, is the driving from the separate self, to gain security, to finish this once and for all - an image in crisis, an image that is out of control, an image that is not in order - a separate self, that defiles the truth. But strangely, the separate entity does not exist, when truth is - when order is, when love is - there is nothing but these and these elements are not known, they simple ARE.

Be well.

January 06, 2004, 02:18:30 PM
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Neti Neti

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Agreed. ^_^. That's why I said it is pointless to argue. Arguments are pointless. You see it, I see it. Many do not. One image aginst another. One "I" aginst another "I". And the image swells into groups, political parties, countries, governments, etc. Then it becomes massive, it becomes more and more leathal. The images of the world keeps you from being.

Love is love, Truth is truth; neither need for you or me to defend such. They are as they are, they exist as they are. Thats why I ask people to not believe what I say; for I have no beliefs. Believing always allows doubt. Belief, faith, etc. is doubt. It's ludciris to do so. The realization of them alone is their being. And when you come in contact with this, all of "you" dies. One person once told me I was telling her to commit sucide; and that I am. Mental sucide, death to SELF. And it is death. This is the very root of death. Death of the false existance. This is the only death.  

You and I are saying the same thing, conveying the same message, just diffrent words. And do words matter? Nope. So why continue this post? No need. :)
People only see what they are prepared to see.

Give all to love; obey thy heart.

Insist on yourself; never imitate... Every great man is unique.

Nothing can bring you peace but yourself.

Speak what you think today in words as hard as cannon-balls and tomorrow speak what tomorrow thinks in hard words again, though it contradict every thing you said today.[/I]
Ralph Waldo Emerson

Place Of Heart Board