Author Topic: Following others or personal discovery?  (Read 4821 times)

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December 27, 2003, 05:43:03 AM
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Void

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Do you follow another or do you go out and discover for yourself? Some things we need the help from others to learn - like dangers in life. The dangerous foods to have, the dangerous mindsets we hold within ourselves, the dangerous animals to have, the dangers in specificity, to our health. We need these types of education for certain, for without them, we would make foolish mistakes that others made - these are essential. Teachings however of a spiritual nature, are strictly personal and cannot be influenced by another and here is why. We are unique creatures, with our own inner being to understand. If we try to understand ourselves according to the ways of another, then we understand ourselves according to the limitation of that teaching and what it has to offer.

This teaching becomes ourselves, so instead of discovering what is within first, we absorb the outside first to reflect inside. This denies discovering for ourselves - for the methods, the outlines encouraged by others, actually are meant for that person. In the natural process, we have to discover without the assistance of another. Even if it has been said before in the world, it doesnt mean it is our own self knowledge, our own understanding. The words realised by another are NOT our understanding. They are that persons and belong solely to that person, much like this piece of information here. But we follow the teachings of others, because we do so for the first and think it customary to do so. Part of our traditions, our backgrounds, our society, our environment as a whole.

Personally, the things i happened to have revealed to this body and mind, came about through no specific course written by another. Indeed, these things simply happened - which shows me what you are meant to learn, you will learn, what is meant to happen to you, will happen to you. These lessons come naturally, the ones you are meant to learn. But we humans have a funny way, we want to influece others, to guide them in what we have found right for ourselves. We try to make the stupid smart by telling them to read books, to go to teachers and so on. Yet we havent found the root cause of stupidity within ourselves and thus will ultimately be stupid within until we do so. Your spiritual teaching, your discovery, is solely for you and not for anyone else.

Your truth is your truth and theirs theirs. In actual fact, understandings conflict, knowledge conflicts with another - this whole barrier of our fact vs your fact, my way vs your way, what i have seen against what you have not - this act of comparison, segregation, separation from the union between one another, is limiting the relationship within the world. Because of belief, because of knowledge, some people are separated - our belief pitted against your belief engages war, engages conflict, engages argument. Our knowledge is ultimately the limit that prevents unity - when you have no knowledge within you, when you are space, do you not listen to all things that come before you? If you hold nothing within yourself, do you not hear? Education in self knowledge is required, not education in religion, not education in tradition, not education in what we think we should do, but an education that this person must discover for themselves.

Teaching your spiritual discoveries to another, destroys their innate ability to see for themselves. They instead have your words echoing inside their head, and they try to see through your eyes, instead of their own. Thus the teacher destroys the student. The teacher is relying upon knowledge, which is of the mind, which is of all the things self is - which is the conflict of self, beyond the self, the teacher may be aware of this union that comes without the mind, and thus the teacher has to betray this to help another to see - thus the student destroys the teacher. Fact is, spirituality, is for self and self alone. The person needs to see for themselves without the influence of its environment. It has to see for itself what is. It has to listen to what is going on inside and thus discover.

Rather than tell someone the answer in terms of their spiritual evolution, it would be far wiser to just ask them to listen and see for themselves what is happening within. For if you tell them, then thats a chance of discovery you have robbed them of, which is an injustice to them. Sometimes we need to suffer to discover a lesson. But ultimately, all lessons are limitations and the place without the mind is the real truth. Which cannot be taught, only discovered, hence my purpose in telling you this.

The fact remains that people must discover for themselves, all the sages in the world have presented teachings, they have shown a certain light, inspired a small percentage, yet the whole has not change. That is because a human cannot inspire the whole to change, the whole being the energy, you cannot influence this because the energy is the one that teaches you! The knowledge you are, is the energy within. But the thing is this, the sages changed very little, no matter how profound they where. They changed very little, people still go to war, people still reside mostly in conflict, people still fear, people still hate and that is because of the mind and a mind that has not been understood.

A human being will never changed the whole, only a segment. The whole must decide to bring about a worldy change in itself - but this fact remains, that on your path, without the influence of another, you will see for yourself your truth, your purpose, your reality, and that may or may not be tied down to the mind. The energy will give you the self knowledge you need to live your life, hence you will discover this sooner if you do not follow another concerning spirituality. The best thing anyone can tell you, is to look and listen within yourself and listen to what is. You cannot be told the truth of your life, for your life is unique and must be understood solely by you. The sages get you looking for their perceptions, trying to relive their lives to understand what is, but it is our life we need to listen to to understand. But we dont do this mostly, we want the quick fix, we want it before us now, we want to know NOW!

But strangely, few ever look and listen for themselves. I would like to tell you all that this is the last piece of information i will be posting, purely because to post another lesson to you would contradict this one.

Be well.

December 27, 2003, 08:21:55 AM
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Neti Neti

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And thats the thing with truth, since it knows no duality, it uses all duailty, and contriditcs itself alot. Then again, it uses not answers, but questions, to show that all questions have utimatly the same answer.

Truth is vast, and as many people as there are, each hold their own truth, which is all truth,  but still unique. This unique does not mean seperate; if anything it shows that we are all one. Which is exteremely complex, but undoubtly simple. Creation never copies itself, but all creation is still one. Since nothing has ever been created nor destroyed.

This is also why I find posting at boards a bit pointless for me. Maybe others learn from it, but for me it does very little. I like to talk to people one-on-one; that way its more personal, you can learn and grow more. But then again, each to his own, since we are all heading to the same; but diffrent place.  :)
People only see what they are prepared to see.

Give all to love; obey thy heart.

Insist on yourself; never imitate... Every great man is unique.

Nothing can bring you peace but yourself.

Speak what you think today in words as hard as cannon-balls and tomorrow speak what tomorrow thinks in hard words again, though it contradict every thing you said today.[/I]
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December 28, 2003, 09:43:09 AM
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LadyKalee

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Very good.   ;) There are a few points at which sharing your experience helps others to recognize theirs more than fabricate it however.  Sometimes people need help broadening their view before they can go deeper.
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There is nothing in the universe with the power to hold the human mind in painful captivity except for the cage it builds for itself out of its own mistaken thinking.

"Natives who beat drums to drive off evil spirits are objects of scorn to smart Americans who blow horns to break up traffic jams."   -Mary Ellen Kelly

December 29, 2003, 11:23:01 PM
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Shinn

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I think it should be a mixture of both. Learn from others but take eevrything with  a pinch of salt.

January 01, 2004, 01:48:21 AM
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F8te

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While I do agree with Void, there is still room for a teacher.  However, I speak of a teacher that merely acts as a guide for the student to recognize that all they need is already at their (the student's) disposal.  We can go searching on our own, and we eventually will have to, but until then people at large can not seem to find the way (truly, their 'own' way) themselves. They need a system that will take them on a journey, undoubtedly into the self and beyond.  Something that will not only imprint itself in their mind as a command to do things for themselves, but rather something that will suddenly propel them - suddenly compell them - to reach for that inner sanctuary and truly see where they can go.

Something more than a simple command.  People require assistance, not simply commands.  The teachers that would really matter are the ones that could remind others of this in a certain way that reaches past the mind, and touches the greater self of the individual.

In addition, there are certain universal truths that apply for everyone - of course, on an individual level.  These things 'can' be taught by explanation.  Actually, they are not really taught but just conceptualized for the student/listener.  It is then the students journey to apply them and learn right then, not just think that they know because they can mentally grasp the concepts. They still teach themselves.

January 01, 2004, 02:54:05 AM
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Void

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For you f8te.

Be well.

January 01, 2004, 08:01:08 AM
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Neti Neti

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It is needed to see beyond it. If it wasn't for the church, you would never see beyond it. If it wasn't for the teacher, you would never see beyond him/her. You can come to this understanding without them; but they add confusion within your own mind. And confusion is always good--- it lets you see beyond what you thought you understood.

There are three types of people; those who reach truth on their own, those who don't want to see truth, and in the middle; those who need some outside insight that aids them with seeing their own.

If it wasn't for my words, his words, their words, then you would proberly never see the reality behind these words. Or you might, but someone else might not. Words act as a bridge, but they are not the destination. They mean diffrent things for diffrent people. It all depends on the person. But, never are words definite. Always see beyond the meaning. This is their only meaning.
People only see what they are prepared to see.

Give all to love; obey thy heart.

Insist on yourself; never imitate... Every great man is unique.

Nothing can bring you peace but yourself.

Speak what you think today in words as hard as cannon-balls and tomorrow speak what tomorrow thinks in hard words again, though it contradict every thing you said today.[/I]
Ralph Waldo Emerson

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January 01, 2004, 06:20:55 PM
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F8te

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I'm not certain if you understood my motives, Void.  

Foremost, what you just did -- presenting that document with your perceptions and such that have been articulated in words -- is exactly what I was referring to as teaching.  This is the system I refer to; a system that empowers the individual.  Of course it can be presented in a unique variety of ways, but all with the same purpose: to empower the individual onto a journey of self-discovery.  

You're telling me that there is no need for a teacher, but you're also - hopefully - noticing that amidst the things you tell me, it is never left at that idea.  And I already consider myself open to what you say, as I do not disagree with the essence of it; I’ve experienced many things already in the personal path.  Though, what about those that do not hold such perseverance in self-discovery by independent means – or even care to? How do you reach people - the general public - that are dependant on an external programming to reconsider their base motives for guidance, just by telling them what they've gotten themselves into?  Sure some people would gladly say "sure, I don't follow anyone," but would they even understand how to find their own path?  I'd bet money (well, not really) that they would still be influenced greatly by their "environment" and internal forces they do not yet comprehend.  Yes, they can solve this one on their own, but not before putting trust in their own path.  And that is not often accomplished through one lecture/article or meeting with them regarding what you've said to me.

I hope you realize that I do agree with what you've said, but have transformed the meaning of the traditional teacher.  It may not fall into your perception, but you yourself are acting like one of these alternative teachers with some your actions, in my honest opinion.  If you argue that 'initial' guidance (which is rather intended to make the student - or you can even say friend or peer - independent of others) is not needed, then what is the point of your documents such as the one you kindly posted?  Informing can be considered teaching,

Although I may be shifting things around here somewhat, it is only for the purpose of touching on something that you may have not considered.  Though, it is very possible you see it in a different way, and we are not using the correct words to communicate the same perception.  I would think that is closer to what is occurring, since you ‘have’ posted/communicated in the ideal way of an alternative teacher in my perspective. I am not elevating your status at all above myself or any other, however.  What I’m saying is that by ‘Teacher,’ it is someone that has the ability to reflect someone else’s innermost self back to them, so that they (the “student”) come to realize where the “true” sea of knowledge and experience lies – within them, inevitably finding their own path.  We are all students and teachers alike in life.

January 01, 2004, 08:21:51 PM
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neijia

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i again enjoyed what i read.  a teacher is someone who guides or assists the student, not someone they can lay on as a crutch.  this discussion is great, i have learned again, i'll save this as well.
 
thank you all very much.
"If you make yourself more than just a man...if you devote yourself to an ideal...you become something else, entirely."
-Batman Begins trailer
 
All Hail Huang.
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January 01, 2004, 09:09:02 PM
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Void

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Destiny is natural:

There is a story of a man, who left on his journey, knowing absolutely nothing about what was going on. As he walked, strange things happened to him. He began to hear things, see things, to wondered on many things. The mysterious happenings continued to manifest themselves, they piled up and up and up, until the person became misconstrued. Thus he turned to others for guidance. He looked to the religious people, he looked to alternative people, he looked to martial philosophers - he looked everywhere he could and gathered information about what he was dealing with. He examined closely what was going on within himself after reading others, he observed, gathered information about himself, rearranged himself to suit what should be, but these merely misconstrued him further - it was only when he let the words of others go, that he discovered what actually was. That he was a piece of energy, a small white light.

This small white light lies within each person, and each person must discover it. The fact remains that those who are meant to discover, will be shown by the energy that is guiding them along their path. Those that are not meant to see will not see in this life. You cannot teach the whole world, you cannot expose this small white light within oneself. The guiding energy that is the world, will show you what is required for your path. The guiding energy will teach you what you need to know - if your path leads to this small white light within, then consider yourself fortunate. It is not up to us where we go, but it is up to the energy to lead us to where we are meant to be. It is not the words of others that reveal the truth, but the truth is revealed by the energy itself, it shows itself to you! It is foolish to say that you have discovered - it is in fact, that it has been shown to you.

The energy carefully selects who is meant to see, thus, what purpose of a teaching do you have if you have already had your life laid out for you? What you are meant to see you will see - what you are shown you are shown - do you understand yet? It has nothing to do with teachers, with your own rearranging of thoughts, it is what the energy itself leads you to see. There is nothing a teacher can really do, it is entirely the energy that unlocks the doors within and permits you to view it! This is why my being expresses begin with yourself - because if you are meant to see you will! The teaching to follow oneself, i see where you are coming from with this. Needing to guide people to it, because most have lost their way. Many sages have graced the world, and the masses have not changed - that is because an offspring of the energy, cannot directly influence the root of the world.

The root of the world, will not change because a branch has made it so, after all, the branch is the thing that came from the root! Thus the root is aware of what it is doing, yet influences people to try and change it all. When you realise that the world is doing what it is meant to be doing, you are shown that there is nothing that can really be done for other people - what they see is what they see - you cannot change the world, or other people, if they are to be changed, then the dynamics within the energy will do so. There is nothing we as humans, offsprings of this energy, can do. The energy has its own will, own motive. I would dare not call this god. This would be foolish. It is unclear as to whom or what this energy actually is. Although certain elements would try to claim it as theirs, it is still unknown as to what it is. Fact remains - sages will never change this world, they will become part of history, where they influenced a small minority and taught a small minority, but the minority can never change the whole!

It is not because of anything else, but the fact that the energy is unwilling to change itself in terms of human beings directions and destiny. What happened to me, happened naturally, the energy brought me to the realisations i have had. I did not seek them, and when i did, nothing was ever really found. The fact remains that a teacher is trying to influence the energy within the person, and honestly cannot do so - because the persons own intitial energy must act on its own. Are you following? We do nothing, the energy does everything! If we are meant to see, we will see, if we are meant to be blind, then we will be blind. The sage he desperately lunges at the world to try and influence it, is effectively fighting himself. To try and change the worlds root within each individual - to try and awaken then, if they are to be awake, the energy will make it so. But still, we try and unknowningly express the energies will. Fact remains is that we are puppets to the energy of the world - if you are shown this, then there is something unique for you to see here.

My hoping for you to see is folly - in fact, meaningless - if you are to see, you will see. The world will not change because one human says so. If the world is to change, then the whole world must wake up at once - the energy must awaken us, enlighten our beings. For naturally, enlightenment can be, but seldom is, because that is just the way it is. Thus, the one who has seen, relinquishes the need to teach, to guide, to preach, to do this and that, purely because there is an understanding of the fact that if they are meant to see, then they will see. It is essentially out of ones hands. Just like if the person is meant to teach, then they will do so. It is purely the will of the energy as to what happens in each and every life within this world. I do nothing, the energy does everything. What you wish and what you see, is the product of this energy - if you feel for a certain direction, if you think a certain way, it is because of the energy. Though i may tell you it comes from fear, then your desires, then your self accumulated images - and another teacher may tell you something else, you are simply walking the path the energy has dennoted for you.

This is all an expression of the worldly energy. Walk your path - see what is shown to you.

Be well.

EDIT: In short, some will learn from teachers, others will learn from themselves. It all depends upon what is on your path friend:)

January 01, 2004, 10:04:15 PM
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It is said that when Buddha became enlightned, three angels approched him.

The angels said "Buddha! You have made it to the world of the enlightened. Now, we would like you to stay on Earth to teach others the way as well." Buddha replied, "Why?" The angels discussed the issue some, and reported back to Buddha. They said "What about the people who are on not on the path, but need or want to be?" Buddha replied, " If they need to be, then they will, and if they want to be, then they will not. They need not a teacher; for they will learn neither way." The angels left to discuss this some more. The came back and said "What about the ones who are on the path?" Buddha replied, "If they are on it, then they will see as I did. All people on the path do. They need not a teacher; they are their best teacher." The angels left to discuss once again. They had to find a reason to get Buddha to stay. Suddenly, it hit them. They asked him, "What about the ones who are looking for it, but will not find the path without a light to guide them to it?" Buddha thought about it for a moment. He could not come up with an answer. He then said, "Alright. You have made your point. I will stay."

 :) . Like I said before, words are meaningless. Teachings aren't meaningless. But you make them so. Your mind conflicts; that is all. You must approch everything with a clear mind. The seeker is one who is always in conflict. But, if there is any truth in any teaching, he will always see it. For the truth lies in hiself. This is just helping to awake it; help him see this for hiself. For all he sees is simply a manifestion of what he is. Of what everything is; and he is as well.
People only see what they are prepared to see.

Give all to love; obey thy heart.

Insist on yourself; never imitate... Every great man is unique.

Nothing can bring you peace but yourself.

Speak what you think today in words as hard as cannon-balls and tomorrow speak what tomorrow thinks in hard words again, though it contradict every thing you said today.[/I]
Ralph Waldo Emerson

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January 01, 2004, 10:53:06 PM
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Void

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Words do try to convey the meaning of something, which is the expression of a said feeling pertaining to a situation. Feeling has no voice, it is purely private. The fact is that the mind and the feelings exist with one another - thus so long as people feel this and that, there too will be the thoughts of this and that. What are most teachings born from? The desire to lead others, born from the insecurity that others will not see. Why else would you write down your notes? Why else would you seek to enlighten others? Teachings wish people to discover a truth do they not? They wish them to find what has been found in these notes, so they too can experience what the original writer experienced. The teachings of the world are born out of fear. Or are they? Is a teaching born from fear? What is the purpose behind the words of the teaching? What is the point on conveying notes, conveying meanings?

What is it all about? Lets discuss this.

January 02, 2004, 12:06:13 AM
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neijia

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while i need more time to think about what was said, let me ask you this:
 
in the first paragraph of void's post before last, the story about the man on the journey, i wonder:  would the man have found the light had he not learned all of that information only to then have to discard it and regain himself?  maybe there is a need for all of that.
"If you make yourself more than just a man...if you devote yourself to an ideal...you become something else, entirely."
-Batman Begins trailer
 
All Hail Huang.
http://www.geocities.com/huangskungfu/Intro.html

January 02, 2004, 11:41:04 AM
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Neti Neti

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You say out of fear; but I would say the oppsite. People would hold knowelge aginst others; its been happing since the beagining of time. The less you know, the better off you are. Knowelege is power, and people in this world know such. They hold back knowelge of fear that if someone did find out, then they could surpass them and make theirself obsolete.

Smart people are always praised. They always are put above others; for what? Are they more important because they know more than the others? It appears so. Even since grade school, certain children are picked out and given special oppertunties over the others. Grown-ups feed them, inflate their egos; tell them that they are "gifted". And it may be so, in fact its truth.

People with knowelege are always "on top". They are ment to run their lowers; and in a way to make sure that they don't understand what they do. People think knowelge makes them unique. Who and what they are depends on what they know. If someone else knows, then that does not make you an individual. it does not make you "special". Even the teachers in today schools have an superiorty over their students. An ego trip. This is why many people become teachers; to have the advantage over their students. They know stuff they don't, and that gives them power.

When an enlightend person teaches, all this goes out the window. He knows truth is universal. There isn't any need to teach, or a superior feeling. Why does he/she teaches? Fear that others won't see what he does? No. An enlightend person only sees enlightened people. Everyone is. He is just aware of it. The thing is; there isn't any will to do anything. To teach, or do not teach.

Alot of enlightened people don't teach. Alot do. What's the diffrence? Who says there is one. Intuned with the universe, an enlighten person only does. He has no method or need to; he just does. Hes reached some understanding to where he lets go. If anything; at this point it is love which he is sharing. Yes, it maybe in the form of words or feelings, but love non the less. Love is a universal thing; it is in everything, yet it has its own substance. An enlightened person has no self will, no need to do anything. If he does, then it is something higher. Something beyond.
People only see what they are prepared to see.

Give all to love; obey thy heart.

Insist on yourself; never imitate... Every great man is unique.

Nothing can bring you peace but yourself.

Speak what you think today in words as hard as cannon-balls and tomorrow speak what tomorrow thinks in hard words again, though it contradict every thing you said today.[/I]
Ralph Waldo Emerson

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January 03, 2004, 12:43:25 AM
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Lightbringer

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Just to comment on the original post: I believe you can learn how to further your own spiritual development from others.  It makes no sense that you can't learn things about yourself from others, we are all human after all.  And if there are things about our spirituality that we share with others, then not learning from others would be foolish.
 
Finally, a bit of food for thought: since we are all basically the same at the physical level (we all have 2 eyes, 1 nose, we need to drink water, etc.) why wouldn't our spirits have some similarities between them as our physical bodies do?  We are indeed unique, but we are still the same on many levels.
The thing that really fascinates me about people is their ability to have no idea what's going on even though it's going on in plain sight all around them and the even more amazing tendency to argue violently when one of these obvious things is presented to them.