Author Topic: Amount of energy - discussion  (Read 3502 times)

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March 18, 2016, 06:58:51 PM
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Steve

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This thread is pulling from the original posts found here http://forums.vsociety.net/index.php/topic,23717.msg225581/ I didn't want to clutter Akenu's thread.

Topic is regarding "amount" to energy. "Energy" among metaphysicsts come by split ideals: some think that it is a metaphor, others a real thing. I say it's a real thing based on my experiences.

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Interesting - I've never come across anyone with that perspective before. But maybe I've just spent too much time talking to Daoists who love getting into pissing contests over which system cultivates the most Chi/best Chi/etc etc:p
I've come across a few. As above, the thing about metaphors. Mostly, though, it's people who don't work with energy who seem to say that it can't/doesn't have an amount.

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I'm trying to think about how a perspective like that would work - it seems implicit in more or less all energetic systems I've encountered that energy is something quantifiable (at least theoretically or subjectively, I've never heard of any attempt to quantify it objectively). Thus cultivating, accumulating, condensing, etc.
Some of the ways I've seen it described (not exact quotes): "It's just *there*. It's infinite and literally *everywhere*. There is no amount. That would be silly.", "Qi doesn't refer to a real substance. It refers to your stance work, to the way that you move. (from martial artists)", or "it's useless to talk about it in amounts. You have it, you use it. 'More' and 'less' don't really matter because they don't make a difference. Using 'more' energy doesn't bring about 'more' results. (the idea that it is qualitative, not quantitative)"

From the perspective of it being qualitative, for instance, the concept of "accumulating" would them be semi-self delusional, as you're not really "drawing in more energy", but are instead using psychological trickery to make yourself change how you feel, and how your energy feels or is charged/impregnated/whatever. Condensing would then further be a concept of changing the quality that is imbued in the energy, but not by literally concentrating/compressing/making-more-dense anything. So for instance, exactly what you said with "although this could possible tie back to what was being said earlier about presuppositions influencing energetic phenomena - it could be that we structure our experiences with our expectations to a greater degree than we suspect" and other such things.

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And like you, this has definitely been my experience with these practices
Good to have feedback from people.

~Steve
Mastery does not occur when you've performed a feat once or twice. Instead, it comes after years of training, when you realize that you no longer notice when you're performing a feat which used to require so much effort. Even walking takes years of training for a human: why not everything else?

March 21, 2016, 02:57:06 AM
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Mind_Bender

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Energy is real in my experience. I do not know exactly what it is or how it works, but I do know it is there.

Some examples from my history of practices and their effects on me:

1) It is very light yet energizing and develops solid pressure and light heat, like the Hui Gong I just learned, that also gives me a good amount of vitality afterwards.

2) It has a very strong pulse or pressure that lasts only for a short time, but is quite comforting, like Reiki.

3) It is very electric and causes unforseen changes in my environment like Qabbalistic meditations, such as the Middle Pillar Ritual and the Lesser Banishing Ritual of the Pentagram.

4) It is very seductive and almost embracing, with a mist like darkness like vampiric or Qliphotic energies, also apathetic, anxious, and violent at times.

5) It is invigorating and inspiring, and gives a me a rush of endorphins and vitality, also causes a lot of heat and release of tensions, like martial qigong.
"Spirit is in a state of grace forever.
Your reality is only spirit.
Therefore you are in a state of grace forever."

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March 21, 2016, 11:59:33 PM
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Akenu

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As above so below. Despite the fact many people don't agree on this one, metaphysical energy must work the same way as the physical one. Consider that to lift a car 1 meter up you need a certain amount of force, to do so via pk one would need an amount of metaphysical energy to match the physical one needed for the same reason. Many people here say that metaphysical energy works completely differently yet I haven't seen any of them levitating a car so it's a word against a word.

As for the amount or density, I would reference readers to IIH, maybe the most useful material regarding thaumaturgy.

March 22, 2016, 06:44:16 AM
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Steve

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Thanks for the contributions, Mind_Bender and Akenu.

Mind_Bender:
On the other hand, we have to be careful about ascribing feelings and sensations to the energy, as there are a couple of different theories about it. The first being that there are different distinct energies, but that some of them can be modified from one to another (ie, Qi condensed to Jing). The second theory being that all energy is neutral and can take on any quality/characteristic/feeling/sensation, and so any perceived differences from one to another is merely because the energy being felt has one (set of) qualities and not other qualities.

It's possible that the "complete truth" is somewhere between those two; energies are imbued with qualities, which then stick strongly to the energy and generally requires a working in order to remove or add new qualities, but overall there are no "types" of energy inherently (ie, the Astral Light is neutral energy that has certain qualities strongly stuck to it, and which qualities are stuck to it can be modified via an energetic operation such as what Akenu is doing by condensing it down). Or it may be that there are, inherently and naturally, certain distinct types of energies that can only be modified by certain types of energetic operations, and then there is also at least one form of neutral energy in abundance which can be easily imbued with qualities.

So because of the "imbuing qualities" aspect of energy work, there are some who would also say (and I disagree with them) that we're imbuing the "sensation" of amount into energy by expecting it to be like that. I find this to be a fallacious argument as it is predicated upon a presumption of whether we're expecting such a thing rather than an observation.

Akenu:
The idea that metaphysical energy "must" work the same as physical energy is a concept I've considered for a while, and so I've always been on the lookout for posts about people performing PK on larger objects; chairs, tables, doors. So far, from the people who've claimed to move those things, none of them have seemed to have suffered any sort of blowback (for every action, equal opposite reaction) that a similar use of physical force would cause. Of course, on the other hand, when's the last time you tried to push a chair and somehow fell over from it, or open a door and slammed yourself into the wall because of it? We tend to naturally brace ourselves against the opposing forces, and our societies tend to create objects in our daily lives that are easy to utilize, ie move.

My own personal preference is not to say that metaphysical energy "must" work like physical energy, but that until it displays any specific quality otherwise, I will compare any specific quality of metaphysical energy to physical energy because nature does have tendencies to do similar things in similar manners. So for instance, I'm still a proponent of the idea that the energy probably does travel through time and space, though maybe not in the way that we're used to (since, you know, we're not used to information or forces traveling backwards through time).

But, from my own personal experiences, amount is definitely an inherent quality that I would ascribe to energy work. It's kind of hard not to when you move to a larger city (from 70K people, to 1M people) and expect there to be a similar amount of energy and it turns out there's barely any natural environmental energy, and then wonder about whether your perceptions were off, but then each time you go back home for vacation you can gather large amounts of energy easily and then when you go back to the larger city it once again becomes a pain. For anyone wondering, I mean the difference between easily pulling enough energy to more than fill my body and create a volume of energy around my body, versus not being able to pull enough to even merely fill my body.

~Steve
Mastery does not occur when you've performed a feat once or twice. Instead, it comes after years of training, when you realize that you no longer notice when you're performing a feat which used to require so much effort. Even walking takes years of training for a human: why not everything else?

March 26, 2016, 11:37:27 PM
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Neeros

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In the Shaolin Qi Gong I learned from my Sifu, the three stages of Qi Development are: Cleansing, Building, and Nourishing. I've experienced the reality of Qi every day for the last several years. Whether I am delusional or not, the benefits of the training to my kung fu, my life, and my spirituality are very real.
The clever combatant imposes his will on the enemy, but does not allow the enemy's will to be imposed on him.
- Sun Tzu

[18:22] <Rayn> That makes it worst. If the people can't practically apply and create effects, it is not so good.
[18:22] <metalforever_> okay, and who in the oec can do that? i would say very very few
[18:22] <metalforever_> their too busy fondling their psiballs

March 27, 2016, 06:38:54 AM
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Hellblazer

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Whether I am delusional or not, the benefits of the training to my kung fu, my life, and my spirituality are very real.
This.

When I worked with the energy paradigm I noticed that if it was personal energy, such as sexual energy or nerve force (don't know what to really call it) I felt drained in that aspect. If it was sexual energy my libido dropped, nerve force I felt exhausted. If the energy was external I felt it but wasn't sure what it was. The more I really think on these things, I realize that any manipulation of physical matter is more than likely an accumulative effect.

I honestly think I had the more enjoyment when I was really into the energy paradigm. I just loved energy work. The accumulation of vital force or the concept of it, kept me balanced and energetic.

March 30, 2016, 07:13:52 AM
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mystic

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Great insights.

I just want to add a few things from my perspective both dependent of a school whose purpose is to bring the famed yin yang gong qi out and personal insight.

From the paradigm of our school, there is definitely an amount of energy that is measured in many ways. What many will consider the famed "level one" in the John Chang Mo Pai system (and yes John is no longer Pak of the school) is the channels being balanced (especially in the legs) and true qi (zhen qi) collected in the lower Dan tian. From the long men Pai, this is expanded in quite a few ways. When this process occurs, qi, jing and Shen coagulate creating the inner elixir (lower Dan tian) for the filling to take place which ultimately leads to a similar result (open channels, balanced meridians, qi in lower Dan tian). As far as "measures" are concerned, they're subjective.

How easy can you surrender in the lower Dan tian is the classic means of measuring how much qi you have in there. The more zhen qi in the lower Dan tian, the easier it is to enter the lower Dan tian. Many teachers will subjectively measure health to see if things are happening. This is certainly the case of mo Pai and other lineages for the level one process.

And yet, think about this a moment. The entire notion of amount of energy is subjective either in your practice or is reinforced by a teacher. You pray the teacher is good and provides a great level of insight and guidance and not steer you clear. But many on the path have teachers that are solely based on not being part of a noble system and perpetuate a mental trap. Be careful.

I suppose in this, does the amount of energy or the measure really matter in the grand scheme of things? It's a circle jerk in that it's a mental concept that clings to the 'I' and not into a depth of practice necessary to enter. If you cling to I, you will rarely ever enter properly.

I agree with Steve in that at this point it is imbuing these properties (or concepts) of what YOU think of energy as a concept outside of the mind. Don't fall into that trap. Just enjoy the ride

April 03, 2016, 09:20:38 PM
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sulphurcrest

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Hey,

I'd like to throw in my 2c.

First of all lets remember that there are several forms of energy, wielding the energy within environment is (relatively) infinite in the right place such as in nature, but the energy within your body is not.

If someone is saying they feel like they are running out of energy they are probably performing their practice incorrectly, you should only ever draw power from your center of gravity, aka your lower dantian, never try to use energy from any other part of your body as that will result in headaches and all sorts of things. This remains true even for the most basic, mundane acts such as thinking or looking at something, use energy from the lower dantian, think with your dantien (energeticly), if you think with your head you will get a headache, if you stare at things you will get sore eyes. You can think and act from the dantian and then through other sources but the dantian is your home base and should be the reservoir of your energy, even if you do use the energy in your dantian it can be replenished via simple meditation and eating food good food. The main point here is not to use the (jing) energy from your kidneys or brain in your practice*.

Energy within the body is quantitative, if you run up a hill you get tired because you are out of energy, there is no clear dividing line between metaphysical sources of energy and physical sources of energy. Energy such as Qi / Prana / Aether / Spiritus / Mana etc is a higher-level abstract concept, for example when I want to move myself forward I just focus my willpower in the direction I want to go and my legs move automatically, I don't have to think about lifting my feet. Energy does not relate back to one thing, sometimes it refers to heat within the body, a persons ability to hold concentration, physical momentum, the adrenaline produced above the kidneys, or even just the potential of oxygen from every breath you draw in.

Unless you want to be a traditional Chinese medicine practitioner then you are only concerned with a few main types of energy from two points within the body and the environment, the energy that you draw in with every breath and the energy in your lower dantian that is created by eating food and the latent energy within the environment.

Energy work the same as weight lifting, in lifting weights there is essentially one rule, don't curl your back, don't risk hurting your spine, keep your abs tight and work from your center of gravity, stick to that rule and as long as you don't do something really weird you'll be fine.

In energy work it's almost the same rule, work from your center of gravity, COG aka lower dantian; cultivate energy into the dantian through meditation and abdominal breathing, then send that energy to other parts of the body or use it in your psionic practice, magick, reiki etc.

I've got a lot going on in my head with "what about this situation or that situation", like what about vampirism or kundalini or other dodgey practices that use jing, however I don't want to go into that, I just want to address the OP,  the most important thing is just to cement that concept of the lower dantian being the storehouse of energy and that energy from there is sent to other locations in the body or used for outwards cultivation (such as the hands in reiki), if you are on vsociety.net then you are likely willing to experiment with energy; even basic exercises like focusing on your third eye can cause problems such as headaches or worse, so make sure you have that energetic link back to the lower dantian and as long as you don't do anything too extreme or weird then you'll safe and you should not have to worry about energy depletion or debt or hurting yourself in someway.

* The exercises that people do which use jing usually relate to circulating jing around the body especially in the brain, the joints, kidneys, genitals and that maybe as simple as rotating your joints in qigong or performing the microcosmic orbit exercise; however it is only ever circulated around the body (or between 2 bodies in sexual practice) and is not outwardly used or expelled.

April 05, 2016, 05:41:24 PM
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mystic

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not to be that guy but...
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If someone is saying they feel like they are running out of energy they are probably performing their practice incorrectly, you should only ever draw power from your center of gravity, aka your lower dantian, never try to use energy from any other part of your body as that will result in headaches and all sorts of things.

Can you clarify on your context? I ask for a few reasons.
Exhaustion isn't indicative of proper practice per se. It can be indicative of a lot of different things. As such, the argument with the more qi you have doesn't necessarily mean you have more to decrease exhaustion. That is not actually what many different schools of dao don't have in mind both from a TCM perspective or a nei gong (alchemical) perspective. If anything, I would be slightly concerned if someone wasn't tired after my practices. They're generated to use qi and open channels and so on. Naturally, opening the channels can result in a lot of different responses including exhaustion and heat and so on and so forth.

Secondly, depending on the lineage, you will have other sources of focus other than the lower dan tian. That doesn't necessarily mean the practice is incorrect. You seem to be confusing the rough location to the lower dan tian with the TRUE dan tian. That's not the case since the true dan tian has no location. Feelings (absent or otherwise) are used as a means of focus, but that's only a door to the true dan tian. I make the distinction between lower dan tian and true dan tian for a lot of different reasons. Mostly, this is due to the nature of esoteric practices by several lineages. Many authors write lower dan tian, but in reality, they refer to the shift of conscious both outside of the body and inside of the body. True focus on the lower dan tian has less to do with location and much more to do with a shift of consciousness accessed through the kinesthetic feelings of the lower dan tian.

So to say, draw qi from the lower dan tian is a misnomer for a lot of different reasons both from an alchemical perspective and a medical perspective. Can you clarify on what you mean on that point?

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The main point here is not to use the (jing) energy from your kidneys or brain in your practice*.

It seems like you're confusing a few things again. Keep in mind jing has many many interpretations. That said, which jing are you referring to? Are you referring to the generative lubrication of the body that cools shen fire? Are you referring to the force created where qi and shen coagulate into usable martial force? There's a lot of jing. And we use / lose jing all of the time. There's very little classification, however, of kidney jing from an alchemical perspective. Postnatal jing? Sure. Prenatal jing? Governed by heaven, karma, and a lot of other things? Absolutely.

There is a lot of TCM documentation on kidney jing I understand and frankly, my experiences do not mesh with the TCM (I mean heck the alchemical practices don't mesh with something only 50 years old).

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Energy within the body is quantitative, if you run up a hill you get tired because you are out of energy, there is no clear dividing line between metaphysical sources of energy and physical sources of energy.

Isn't that qualitative by nature then?

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Energy does not relate back to one thing, sometimes it refers to heat within the body, a persons ability to hold concentration, physical momentum, the adrenaline produced above the kidneys, or even just the potential of oxygen from every breath you draw in.

Not...quite? The heat and so on usually refer to the by products not in as much energy itself. And the physical sensation you identify as energy you can't necessarily say it's yang qi (for instance). It can be dampness, phlegm, yin vacuity, lots of different sensations to denote heat (for instance). So I'm just unsure what you mean by that.

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In energy work it's almost the same rule, work from your center of gravity, COG aka lower dantian; cultivate energy into the dantian through meditation and abdominal breathing, then send that energy to other parts of the body or use it in your psionic practice, magick, reiki etc.

I'll just take a mo pai approach here (well really chan buddhist but semantics considering there's a lot of overlap between the foundation methods). It can't be controlled. Simple as that. At higher levels of cultivation, you really can't control the energy. Simple as that

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I've got a lot going on in my head with "what about this situation or that situation", like what about vampirism or kundalini or other dodgey practices that use jing,

They don't use jing :)
But just to provide an alternative perspective (especially related to the vampirism), people with a weaker dan tian pull xie qi from others which in turn pulls their sickness. It isn't indicative of vampirism per se, but more so indicative of the nature of their body. The dan tian acts as a protective mechanism so that isn't pulled since it becomes your own.

Said in another way, empathy.

There's a lot of things that we interact with every single day. Let's not describe it as jing. Since you lose jing every single day. Heck, lost some writing this post! That doesn't mean my practice will suffer, however. It's just the nature of jing :) Don't get obsessed with conserving jing. It's almost impossible.

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* The exercises that people do which use jing usually relate to circulating jing around the body especially in the brain, the joints, kidneys, genitals and that maybe as simple as rotating your joints in qigong or performing the microcosmic orbit exercise; however it is only ever circulated around the body (or between 2 bodies in sexual practice) and is not outwardly used or expelled.

Still. Not jing. I recommend you read this
http://forums.vsociety.net/index.php/topic,20895.msg225334.html#msg225334

April 06, 2016, 03:16:20 AM
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sulphurcrest

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Hey Mystic, sounds like you know more about the traditional details than I do.

The reason I advise against using energy that is not from the dantien is because in situations where myself and others have done there have been reports of problems, especially in the cases of meditation when people focuse "from their head" and may do something such as furrow their brow leading to headaches, this is something I observed in practice aswell. The other situation which made it clear to me to focus using energy from the dantien was when I would have particularly emotional feelings during meditation I might have had either heart palpitations or adrenaline racing through my body, whilst these are enjoyable to some extent they can leave me feeling drained, I found that constantly returning focus to the dantien gave a more stable, healthy effect that also gave a better overall feeling that was well grounded.

My definition of Jing isn't correct based on what you are saying, what I am really trying to talk about is vital energy that can't be simply restored by meditative practice, the fundamental life force of which you only have a certain amount which is tied to sexual activity.

In conclusion I am careful in my energy practice where I use energy from, I particularly don't want energy to spill out from my kidneys or brain, the only energy kind of vital energy I would use is circulating the sexual energy from the genitals in sexual meditations towards the brain.

Like I said, I don't want to pretend I know more than other people around here, but focusing on the lower dantien has been a generally good safety precaution for me over the past 10 years, it's really all I've had to do in my energetic practices.

April 06, 2016, 03:42:27 PM
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mystic

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The reason I advise against using energy that is not from the dantien is because in situations where myself and others have done there have been reports of problems, especially in the cases of meditation when people focuse "from their head" and may do something such as furrow their brow leading to headaches, this is something I observed in practice aswell.

It seems like the issue may not be due to focus but over concentration. One thing that a lot of people do is over concentrate on a specific area / koan with the expectation that focus == concentration. Sadly, that's not how it works.

There's a lot of different texts on meditation (Pantajali Sutra for instance, and wonderful daoist meditation), but meditation is NOT about focus. It's also about letting your senses absorb into the area of concentration. That requires a point of being (or yin thought) with sustained concentration (yang thought). Vipassana helps with building both. Or actually receiving transmission from a proper teacher helps immensely. It's extremely important because they can direct you in ways not many (or anyone online can do). Even if it is just to receive the transmission of information and you practice on your own, that is still important.

 
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The other situation which made it clear to me to focus using energy from the dantien was when I would have particularly emotional feelings during meditation I might have had either heart palpitations or adrenaline racing through my body, whilst these are enjoyable to some extent they can leave me feeling drained, I found that constantly returning focus to the dantien gave a more stable, healthy effect that also gave a better overall feeling that was well grounded.

I'll bite with a perception question? Where is the lower dan tian? Are you aware depending on the body location that area moves? So when you say lower dan tian, do you mean lower dan tian or do you mean your expectation of what the lower dan tian represents? The question is one that is not meant to spurn thought, but to reiterate something I've said.

The lower dan tian (or the TRUE dan) is not found 3 inches below two inches inward. In any practice, the more you let go and enter a state of sustained shifting of conscious, the doorway doesn't matter. What matters is how long you can let go.

The feelings you have in meditation are impermanent and are due to a variety of different reasons. Too many to count! But each reason reflects the nature of the mind impeding the process of letting go. Be with the feelings you have. That shouldn't necessarily break your concentration!

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My definition of Jing isn't correct based on what you are saying, what I am really trying to talk about is vital energy that can't be simply restored by meditative practice, the fundamental life force of which you only have a certain amount which is tied to sexual activity.

But what is meditation? I mean truly? Most of us don't ever actually get into proper meditation actually.

I highly recommend reading the Pantajali sutras actually. It could be a great help.

As far as sexual practices goes, you are mixing up a lot of things incorrectly. Jing isn't (or has never been) related to sex. You lose jing whenever your body is not in balance or in your original state - formless, thoughtless (or in deep meditation). If you're not in that state, you're losing jing, qi, and run risk of breaking shen depending on the activities you perform.

I use you as an example, but there is a HUGE belief in terms of what you're referring to. And it couldn't be any further from the truth. The silly notion that losing jing == retaining semen does have merit. Yes. But we lose jing so much, it rarely matters in a person's foundation's stage. What matters truly is sustaining a true meditative state to transform the shen, coagulate qi, jing and shen, and form the lower dan tian. Once you have that and you can progress to nei gong, worry about the sex because then it becomes an issue. There's a lot of misconception about jing which is why I referenced a post I made a few months back on it because a lot of people erroneously assume the aspects of the big bad jing and losing a tiny bit of semen and so on and so on.

Just practice. Seriously. Don't worry about it

June 01, 2016, 12:53:46 PM
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Senkoujin

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As above so below. Despite the fact many people don't agree on this one, metaphysical energy must work the same way as the physical one. Consider that to lift a car 1 meter up you need a certain amount of force, to do so via pk one would need an amount of metaphysical energy to match the physical one needed for the same reason. Many people here say that metaphysical energy works completely differently yet I haven't seen any of them levitating a car so it's a word against a word.
Good point here!

I have 10 years experience with energy manipulation, and I must say that throughout my endeavors, I've discovered that there is a limit to which your body could amass.  It is a problem, really...to solve it, the mind AND body must be conditioned to draw any further in attempts to reaching the next "level".  I could imagine drawing in beyond my limit, but when actually doing it, it is quickly realized where my limit truly lies.

In a nutshell without going too much into detail, let it be known that it takes energy to draw and manipulate energy.  I have been out of practice for quite some time (3+ months now), and I'm kinda disappointed at myself about that.  I'm not getting any younger, and I feel that I must continue to pursue breaking the limits....I'd need to get back into practice once again.