Author Topic: Ethics of Psychically Influencing Other People  (Read 4017 times)

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December 27, 2015, 09:30:57 AM
Reply #15

Steve

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Akenu:
Yeah, I know you brought it up for a different reason. It's not like I'm blaming you for doing so :P I'm just mentioning it.

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If person is a slave of a system, who cares that you modify his day? There isn't anything valuable he would be doing otherwise anyway, unless, of course, you make it so.
That is exactly true. Thus we can ignore the extreme path of PreDestiny/PreDetermination and start with the assumption that humans have at least some degree of freedom or free will, but not "True Freedom" or "True Free Will" as there are limitations placed upon our existence, whether we want them or not.

But, as with Rayn, how do we tie that back to ethics? Can we say that "because we don't have True Free Will, we therefore can't be held responsible for our actions, and therefore the entire discussion of ethics can be thrown out the window"? I'd say not, and I'm sure most others would also say not as a plain viewing of humanity's actions and interactions show that ethics are a relevant topic. Even if freedom or free will are only illusions, we still operate our daily lives and interactions with one another under the assumptions of having freedom and free will, and thus I'd say we can actually skip that part of the discussion and go straight back to a discussion of ethics.

If people would rather have a discussion of freedom and free will, then we could start a different topic about that so as not to confuse other people who are reading (as Rayn mentioned "them", and was concerned with "them").


Rayn:
Here's some more simple descriptions of the efforts of actualization, written out for the sake of completeness. This way, if you have a problem with any specific ones, you can always point out the specific line you want to discuss.

Human decision to actualize X -> effort to actualize X -> X actualized.
Human decision to actualize X -> no effort to actualize X -> X not actualized.
No human decision to actualize X -> no effort to actualize X -> X not actualized.


Then, if you think any of the below situations are viable, you'd need to detail how they would come about. I'm sure there would be some circumstances where they just happen to happen, such as someone else entirely attempting to actualize it and you reaping the benefits, but those would be outliers and in a general sense the below don't make sense:

Human decision to actualize X -> no effort to actualize X -> X actualized?
No human decision to actualize X -> effort to actualize X? -> X actualized? (this is also the "Effort to actualize ?? -> ??" from my previous post)
No human decision to actualize X -> no effort to actualize X -> X actualized?


Oh, and one more thing, not for Rayn but for those people who Rayn mentioned who have been messaging him and thanking him for his scientific approach to things:
If you're not already, do Rayn a favour and applaud some of his posts. I'm not suggesting that you go around purposefully attempting to applaud him all the time just because you like him as a person, but if you see a post you like so much that you're willing to thank Rayn for it, applaud it.

~Steve
Mastery does not occur when you've performed a feat once or twice. Instead, it comes after years of training, when you realize that you no longer notice when you're performing a feat which used to require so much effort. Even walking takes years of training for a human: why not everything else?

December 27, 2015, 09:52:06 AM
Reply #16

Steve

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Double post:

New topic for discussion of Freedom and Free Will (as distinct from the Ethics of Psychically Influencing People)
http://forums.vsociety.net/index.php/topic,23599.new.html

~Steve
Mastery does not occur when you've performed a feat once or twice. Instead, it comes after years of training, when you realize that you no longer notice when you're performing a feat which used to require so much effort. Even walking takes years of training for a human: why not everything else?