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Why seek enlightenment?

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Rationalist:
Hello everyone.

So I'm an occasional lurker on these forums, and wanted to ask this question to all of you who seek enlightenment.

Let us, for the purposes of this thread, assume three things:
1. reincarnation is real, although everyone may not agree on the details
2. there is some time between incarnations, with some level of consciousness
3. enlightenment is reconnecting with this pre-birth consciousness

So, assuming these things to be true, I have a couple of questions:

1. Why should anyone seek enlightenment?
2. How would enlightenment improve one's life, afterlife, or the ability to be of service to others?
3. How would it be more noble to spend hours in meditation seeking enlightenment, rather than spending this time making the world a better place?
4. Since we're here, why not enjoy the things which can only be enjoyed here, and let us enjoy the spiritual worlds after death?

I hope someone can enlighten me :)

Shinichi:

--- Quote from: Rationalist on October 22, 2015, 05:58:36 AM ---1. Why should anyone seek enlightenment?
--- End quote ---

Because they want to. If you don't want to do something, there's no point in doing it.  :P

As for why you should want to, well. That's something very personal to everyone. Some people one to escape the suffering of the physical world. Some people want to become "whole" again, to put it one way. Some people chase the ecstatic bliss of the deeper meditations. Some people don't have a clue, and just go along for the ride. It's a very personal thing, and there aren't really any right or wrong reasons.


--- Quote from: Rationalist on October 22, 2015, 05:58:36 AM ---2. How would enlightenment improve one's life, afterlife, or the ability to be of service to others?
--- End quote ---

Self-Realization allows you to better understand not only yourself, but other people. This not only makes your personal life richer, but it also makes you better equipped to help others, because you tend to have a better perspective on the nature of many things, and so you can better counsel someone in regards to those things.

As for the afterlife, well. Self-Realized people tend to retain their conscious awareness after the first death, which allows them to continue being themselves in the Otherworld until the second death.


--- Quote from: Rationalist on October 22, 2015, 05:58:36 AM ---3. How would it be more noble to spend hours in meditation seeking enlightenment, rather than spending this time making the world a better place?
--- End quote ---

It's a "charity begins at home" thing. Spending a lot of time refining yourself does not directly make the world better, but by bettering yourself first, you are better equipped to make the world a better place.


--- Quote from: Rationalist on October 22, 2015, 05:58:36 AM ---4. Since we're here, why not enjoy the things which can only be enjoyed here, and let us enjoy the spiritual worlds after death?
--- End quote ---

One should always be grounded in the matters of mundane life while alive. But, given that we are more than our flesh, there is value in becoming a whole person while we are here. To enjoy both the physical and spiritual worlds while alive. Not everyone has an interest in this, understandably. But that is why mystics and magicians go this route. We are folk who live in the in-between, a living bridge between Heaven and Earth.

For me, in particular, it's not like I spend hours chasing just enlightenment or anything. I'm simply conscious of the spiritual world, and it is conscious of me, and that is just my life. I was pretty much born this way. The training only helps me make sense of it all.  :P



~:Shin:~

Shinichi:
A word or two from Sadguru:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o7YFWEJyJhg
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H0_-an5hio8



~:Shin:~

Rationalist:
Wait a minute. So I'm not the only person on this forum who likes Sadhguru? :eek:


--- Quote from: Shinichi on October 22, 2015, 10:39:15 AM ---Because they want to. If you don't want to do something, there's no point in doing it.  :P

--- End quote ---

 :biggrin:
I'm just trying to find out what benefits it brings to help me decide if I'm interested in it, and if so, how much time do I want to devote to it.


--- Quote from: Shinichi on October 22, 2015, 10:39:15 AM ---Self-Realization allows you to better understand not only yourself, but other people. This not only makes your personal life richer, but it also makes you better equipped to help others, because you tend to have a better perspective on the nature of many things, and so you can better counsel someone in regards to those things.

--- End quote ---

I can understand the general principle, but could you perhaps give a specific example of this?


--- Quote from: Shinichi on October 22, 2015, 10:39:15 AM ---As for the afterlife, well. Self-Realized people tend to retain their conscious awareness after the first death, which allows them to continue being themselves in the Otherworld until the second death.

--- End quote ---

Okay, that may be true. But, is it necessary to achieve self-realization to retain conscious awareness after the first death (I'm assuming that this is physical death)? What about NDE's? Aren't they evidence that it isn't necessary?

Also, what is the second death? Is there any good web site, book, or a forum post which explains this? Preferably something short without lots of symbolism?


--- Quote from: Shinichi on October 22, 2015, 10:39:15 AM ---It's a "charity begins at home" thing. Spending a lot of time refining yourself does not directly make the world better, but by bettering yourself first, you are better equipped to make the world a better place.

--- End quote ---

I understand and agree. I'm just trying to decide how far to go with this.

...

Concerning the first Sadhguru video, I believe he's arguing that most people should not strive for enlightenment, but just reach a certain point, and then become enlightened at the moment of death. Is this correct? And what is this certain point that results in enlightenment at the moment of death?

Concerning the second Sadhguru video, he's saying that if you cultivate your body, mind, emotions and energy to their peak possibility, then "an absolutely wonderful flower blossoms within you".  And this is enlightenment, correct? If so, why wouldn't it result in you leaving the body, as he was talking about in the last video?

Thank you for your answers, by the way!

Shinichi:

--- Quote from: Rationalist on October 25, 2015, 04:54:43 AM ---Wait a minute. So I'm not the only person on this forum who likes Sadhguru? :eek:
--- End quote ---

Nope. :P


--- Quote from: Rationalist on October 25, 2015, 04:54:43 AM ---I can understand the general principle, but could you perhaps give a specific example of this?
--- End quote ---

My pursuit for Self-Realization has only made me a more honorable and empathetic person. I do not easily lose my temper, I listen to people better, I learn things more easily, and I am not bogged down by unconscious self-sabotage as much as I used to be. When I want to learn or do something, I just do it. And when I find myself in a situation where it is difficult to think about solutions, such as counseling situations where one must tread carefully, I can either Invoke my Higher Self or let it speak through my intuition so that I am able to give words that are from a higher part of myself. I do this last one quite often in forum posts and such too, because at this point it's very easy to let my HS speak through me and give advice. Most of my unique insights and a great deal of what I say comes directly from speaking and writing this way, connected to my HS. I haven't quite reached that union point yet, the "proper" self-realized state that most call enlightenment, but I'm close enough that I can do this much.


--- Quote from: Rationalist on October 25, 2015, 04:54:43 AM ---Okay, that may be true. But, is it necessary to achieve self-realization to retain conscious awareness after the first death (I'm assuming that this is physical death)? What about NDE's? Aren't they evidence that it isn't necessary?
--- End quote ---

NDE's are very different for different people. Some people experience nothing, some have fully conscious OBE's, and some people dream during them.


--- Quote from: Rationalist on October 25, 2015, 04:54:43 AM ---Also, what is the second death? Is there any good web site, book, or a forum post which explains this? Preferably something short without lots of symbolism?
--- End quote ---

The second death is the death of the part of you that functions in the afterlife. The first death is the death of the body, the second death is the death of the soul and previous personality. It occurs right before reincarnation.


--- Quote from: Rationalist on October 25, 2015, 04:54:43 AM ---Concerning the first Sadhguru video, I believe he's arguing that most people should not strive for enlightenment, but just reach a certain point, and then become enlightened at the moment of death. Is this correct? And what is this certain point that results in enlightenment at the moment of death?
--- End quote ---

The opposite. Not everyone who dies reaches enlightenment suddenly, but when someone experiences enlightenment for the first time they usually die. Because when your consciousness expands to encompass a great part of the cosmos, it is very hard to muster up the volition to compress all that back into the tiny shell of the human meat suit. Some people simply choose not to, let go of their flesh entirely, and so the body dies while they go on to do other things.


--- Quote from: Rationalist on October 25, 2015, 04:54:43 AM ---Concerning the second Sadhguru video, he's saying that if you cultivate your body, mind, emotions and energy to their peak possibility, then "an absolutely wonderful flower blossoms within you".  And this is enlightenment, correct? If so, why wouldn't it result in you leaving the body, as he was talking about in the last video?
--- End quote ---

Bardon approaches it in a similar way, with more detail if you wish to read the IIH. Elemental Equipoise reaches its peak when you cultivate Volition, Intellect, Sentience, and Character, each of these represented by an Element. When the corresponding Element is refined to a high grade of purity particularly in the mental body, and these are all in harmony with each other, you experience "the magicians enlightenment." Which is much like what Sadguru touched on with his story of the four Yogis.



~:Shin:~

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