Author Topic: So, whaddya guys think?  (Read 6231 times)

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December 09, 2013, 09:25:05 PM
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Constructman

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http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Local_churches_(affiliation)

The above link is the gathering which my family belongs to. Some more information is below:

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Normal_Christian_Life
http://www.lsm.org
http://www.watchmannee.org
http://www.witnesslee.org
http://www.ministrybooks.org

A while back, I posted a thread about how my belief in God was becoming shaky, and even now, I'm still seriously considering renouncing the faith on the grounds of the validity of the Bible. However, such an act would irreversibly damage the family balance, something that I cannot afford to let happen right now (seeing as I still live with my parents). So, I wanted to get an outside opinion not just in the Christian faith, but on the specific group that I belong to. So, whaddya guys think?
think?

December 10, 2013, 12:21:37 AM
Reply #1

Bugs

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How will you renounce your faith? Verbally, written or ritually? Your family is the type who go to church regularly and pray together right? If you will renounce your faith to them they will of course ask why. Just tell them you don't want a traditional Christianity, that you want a different path. I don't know your reason but God is not composed of religion nor should you have a religion to believe in God. Hope it helps  :)

December 10, 2013, 12:49:11 AM
Reply #2

Mind_Bender

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It's not necessary to renounce your faith. Even if you are coming from a place of love and true insight it can, most likely will, come off as an attack. I was raised by a Scientologist mother and I renounced that path (rather harshly) but these years later I now see the good it is doing her. Well, she did quit the Church, but she is part of an offshoot brance of a more fluid form of Scientology called the Free Zone (meaning Earth is the Free Zone).

Back on point, if you know it will cause imbalance than simply don't do it. Don't let a spiritual schism ruin your family dynamic. Don't renounce anything, just keep questioning until you find your path. Maybe slowly talk about your doubts and feelings and see how your family reacts. If they seem understanding then explain further your lack of faith in the family tradition/God. If they are not understanding, don't make it worse by renouncing their religion. You're they're child, and to very devoted parents a renunciation is like telling them you are a heroin addict who molests children. I'm not joking, especially if they are 'hail and brimstone.' Faith is a touchy subject. If you believe in God and know he exists to you than pray for advice. God, or whatever name or archetype you choose, loves you no matter what label humans put on it and hopefully that message will be given to your family through Grace. If you are just questioning your faith, is it because of your tradition and Biblical inaccuracies, or do you really not believe in any sense of God? Sit on that and maybe it will help guide your heart to the right decision.
"Spirit is in a state of grace forever.
Your reality is only spirit.
Therefore you are in a state of grace forever."

"As relfections of the Source, we are little gods."

"...part of me doesn't want to believe that auto-eroticism while crushing on a doodle (sigil) could manifest a check in the mail box, but hey, it did."

"Everybody laughs the same language."

December 10, 2013, 12:54:07 AM
Reply #3

Akenu

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Agreed with Mind Bender, don't mess your family relationships just because you feel unsure regarding the bible. Bible is just a book, written by hands of men and compiled by hands of other men, it says neither about the God, it's just a book. Don't let the book to split your family.

December 10, 2013, 07:37:39 AM
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Shadowx089

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Agreed with Mind Bender, don't mess your family relationships just because you feel unsure regarding the bible. Bible is just a book, written by hands of men and compiled by hands of other men, it says neither about the God, it's just a book. Don't let the book to split your family.

...wait what? Every worldview and religions from it has some type of book that they use to be the foundation of their view. What appears to be suggested here is that the Bible was written by man but not to document the events of God and its people. You suggesting that the Bible is just a book made by man, that has no historical credibility and has no truth about God so just let it go. 

Even an Atheist has to use a book to support its claims even if its just a research journal, if they didn't they would just be people talking about theory.

--------------------------------------------------------------------

As for the church, I see little wrong that would be any problem.

As for the family I understand why you must wait.  Don't be fearful of changing your world view and accepting a different belief. Everyone is suppose to doubt what they think they know to see if it really has substance and truth. Keep it to yourself until you feel it is right to let you family know if you ever wish to. World Views are extremely important, for it decides how you behave in any given situation and what you say to others and for some it also is about the afterlife and your soul. (Which is extremely important), Everyone should seek the truth for if the stakes are indeed that high, because If you don't keep seeking the truth, your basically condemning yourself to a guess that your sticking with based on a theory.
Comfort of the Lord, comforted by God.
If nothing existed but the Source and the Source - Created everything - Is the Creation from the Source? - If the Creation can behold intelligence - Then does the Source also have intelligence? - After all - The Source was far more than its Creation.

December 10, 2013, 08:06:37 AM
Reply #5

Mars

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I think the point is that the Bible isn't the be all or end all of a true christian's faith. The same with many religions and philosophies, If you take the book 100% to the letter than you are restricting yourself.

I too have qualms with some areas of the bible and conventional christianity, but I recognize that the bible has been for years edited and is not the whole word of God. I see Jesus as a incarnation of God and a Magus and Teacher, much like I respect Buddha as a teacher ect.

A true christian is supposed to pray to God and Jesus and maintain some form of faith in them and friendship with them more importantly, not worship a old book.
« Last Edit: December 10, 2013, 08:10:05 AM by Mars »
Experience: that most brutal of teachers. But you learn, my God do you learn. -CS Lewis
Cultivation to the mind is as necessary as food to the body. - Marcus T Cicero

December 10, 2013, 09:29:04 AM
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EllyEve

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A while back, I posted a thread about how my belief in God was becoming shaky, and even now, I'm still seriously considering renouncing the faith on the grounds of the validity of the Bible. However, such an act would irreversibly damage the family balance, something that I cannot afford to let happen right now (seeing as I still live with my parents). So, I wanted to get an outside opinion not just in the Christian faith, but on the specific group that I belong to. So, whaddya guys think?

I think you should get a copy of Craig Thompson's autobiographical graphic novel Blankets, and read it. It's good.

As for causing irreversible damage to the family balance, I can only sympathize. You know them best, though. How well can you live a lie? If you would be honest with them, how much can you trust them not to harmfully interfere as you figure this stuff out? Where on the spectrum of behavior between doubt and hatred of faith would they disown you?

December 10, 2013, 10:44:21 AM
Reply #7

Constructman

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I'm not sure how this answers everybody's questions, so forgive me if this is off topic.

The reasons why I'm becoming so doubtful of Christianity are that:

1. Some of the propositions in the Bible are absolutely absurd from a scientific standpoint. While the authors can be forgiven due to ignorance, in today's modern era, such blatent inaccuracy shouldn't be tolerated.

2. Some of the propositions in the Bible I find that I cannot agree with from a moral standpoint (I'm not talking about the OT 600-however many laws; rather, I'm talking about stuff such as the nature of good and evil, the concept of Original Sin, the ultimate fate of the Universe, etc).  The thing I take the most issue with is the concept of salvation; "believe in Jesus and you will be saved, for your spirit has been regenerated; don't believe and you will ultimately persih, for you are a sinner". I find this extremely inconsiderate of other viewpoints and an extremely disproportiate reward/punishment. I understand the rationale behind it (our inherent nature is sinful, so we can not live in the presence of God), but it is this very rationale that I take offense to.

3. The Brothers in the Church talk about "meeting the person of Christ", "transformation and conformation of the soul to God", "seeing the vision"; I'm concerned that these "spiritual things" may just be delusions formed by the mind. In the church, we are educated in spiritual matters and we are more or less told what to vaguely expect; I'm worried that these experiences of God may just be our mind creating what we expect to experience.

4. Children don't really have a choice of what they're taught by their parents and their teachers. As such, I can't help but feel that I've been "dragged" into the Church at times.

5. I can't get over the similarities between Christianity and other spiritual paths however, when I talk with my mom about this, she will affirm that the path of Jesus is the true path. I. Can't accept this at face value.



As for my family, my Dad isn't very involved in the faith. My Mom, however, is extremely devoted; not in a dogmatic sense but in that she has a very deep spiritual understanding of the faith and is devoted to it. She has attained a certain degree of spiritual evolution and has a very intuitive and organic understanding of of the Christian life. This is in no small part due to the fact that the group that my family belongs to has an emphasis on recovery; their aim is to restore the Church to its original state, disposing of dogma and "dead law".

If I were to leave the faith, my mom would be extremely distressed (I'm not sure how my Dad would react). This could partially be because I'm the only member of the extended family in the Recovery; if I leave, then I would sort of terminate the "lineage" of my family. She wouldn't go so far as to disown me but she would probably never get off my back.

Right now, I'm currently fluctuating between an agnostic, a hard atheist (of a nihilist bent), a quasi-Buddhist, and a combined Hermetic/Kabbalistic view of the world. I'm finding that these views make more sense than the view that my parents hold. However, this clash of views is causing me mental strain, and since I don't have the time and the focus required to sit down and do a self-philospphizing session, I can't reach a resolution. I also feel that it is impeding my magical development as it's one of the biggest distractors to my practice (Step 1 of IIH is taking forever).

On another note, what do you guys think of Watchman Nee, Witness Nee, and the Lord's Recovery specifically? (information in the links)?

December 10, 2013, 11:35:24 AM
Reply #8

Mars

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Well I certainly understand where your coming from, I went through a Nihilsm phase, but It never gave me the adequate answers.

My personal opinion is that Jesus was an Incarnation of God, and maybe even Buddha, trying to do what he can to enlighten people. But as far as the bible goes I see it is a huge but very misinformed attempt on his teachings, so I only take that which I need or think is good out of the bible. You can't blame people for trying to grasp it, but the politics behind it were so great the Roman Empire -> Roman Papacy probably have misconstrued it so much that it looks nothing like the original religion. Draped in fables and stories they concoct or edit old more accurate ones for their own ends.

My view of religion is a very complex one and possibly seemingly New Age, though i don't think it is.

I also think its silly for christianity to believe God is all powerful, and Jesus is God yet you can't get to heaven without worshipping Jesus, any other God is not worshiping jesus so you won't be saved.... Buuuut... If all Gods or most Gods were the same God in a different mask or appearance or maybe even angels in a persona to pass on, to worship them is to still worship god and therefore still worship Jesus, but many believe that if you don't worship Jesus directly you will be lost ? As if God isn't an important part and it almost makes it man worship in a way, almost robbing Jesus of his divine element in my opinion. Surely God being Jesus wouldn't care what name he was worshiped under ?

In the end I still pray to God and Jesus, but I don't follow any current christian denomination, I just try and do good and follow what I believe I'm being told by God in my heart and try and use reason and logic and my own conscious by which I run my life.

You don't have to leave Christianity all together but rather place less stock in the bible, and try and attempt to speak to Jesus or God directly see what they say, or what you feel they are telling you. (It is a doozy though)
Experience: that most brutal of teachers. But you learn, my God do you learn. -CS Lewis
Cultivation to the mind is as necessary as food to the body. - Marcus T Cicero

December 10, 2013, 12:26:32 PM
Reply #9

Mind_Bender

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No religious scripture is based on science because they are based on faith. I know just about every member here is trying to find an absolute connection between metaphysics and while they may be connected in degrees, many degrees, they are different, at least in my eyes.

Science can't explain why I need to see a family member and suddenly they are at my doorstep to give me the message I was asking for. Why does science need to explain that? Religious scripture is teaching us about trust in our true nature (Buddhism) and/or a higher power (Christianity/Yoga). Science muddles alot of miraculous things, mainly because we spend too much time questioning instead of having faith through experience (not blind dogmatism).

When it comes to impurity, I completely understand the feeling of disgust, but remember scripture (at least in the Eastern hemisphere) is talking about the impurity of the body, not the spirit. Your spirit/true nature  is percfect, we are born into sin and illusion because the body is impure- it gets hurt, grows old and dies. Chemical and electrical sensations are taken as feelings of anxiety and emotions, so many emotions, are constantly trying to balance themselves out. Our drives, through a human lense, are often confused. Your situation, case in point. Basically, because we are flesh and are finite we are in 'sin' and all sin is is distance from the Divine, and illusion distance from your true nature, not bad karma and stupid decisions. When we align with our Divinity/true nature we are in line with our spirits, thus we are perfect once again.

Even with all of that said, I agree we are not born in sin nor should scripture push this. I find comfort in my signature for this very reason- once we become aware of Grace and Loving Kindness, we are perfect, and as babies, we are in complete alignment with Grace and Loving Kindess. We are not born into sin or illusion, we create it for ourselves as we believe the conditioning of society and muddle our inner truth for external ignorance.
"Spirit is in a state of grace forever.
Your reality is only spirit.
Therefore you are in a state of grace forever."

"As relfections of the Source, we are little gods."

"...part of me doesn't want to believe that auto-eroticism while crushing on a doodle (sigil) could manifest a check in the mail box, but hey, it did."

"Everybody laughs the same language."

December 11, 2013, 09:00:05 AM
Reply #10

Steve

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Constructman: You are not your parents. You do not have to believe what they believe or do what they do. Renounce Christianity if you want to, but if you are in a delicate family setting then I would suggest NOT telling anyone else until you are no longer dependant upon them (ie, moved out of the house).

I noticed in a couple of posts that you mention some ideas that you dont believe in, such as Original Sin, and that you have a hard time believing in Christianity because of them. I am on my phone right now, so I will go into detail later, but many "christian doctrines" like those dont come from the bible. You can still choose to not be christian even if such points are addressed, so I hope I wont come across as trying to "keep you in the faith" if you dont want to be.

~Steve
Mastery does not occur when you've performed a feat once or twice. Instead, it comes after years of training, when you realize that you no longer notice when you're performing a feat which used to require so much effort. Even walking takes years of training for a human: why not everything else?

December 11, 2013, 11:29:09 AM
Reply #11

Constructman

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Thank you for the responses.

What everybody seems to be talking about is about me making my choice whether to stay in the faith; what nobody seems to have touched on is what they think of the group ispecifically mentioned in the original post. What do you guys think of them?

December 11, 2013, 11:41:27 AM
Reply #12

Mind_Bender

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The path itself sounds nice, reforming from pure doctrine to actually spiritual experience. Mary Baker Eddy did a similar thing, only used the faith and scripture for healing, not so much reformation. If two dudes from China in the 1900's can reform an archaic religion, why can't you forge your own path?

All I see is two devotees with one vision creating a new path from ancient practices. Jesus did that with Judaism, Buddha did it with Brahmanism.
"Spirit is in a state of grace forever.
Your reality is only spirit.
Therefore you are in a state of grace forever."

"As relfections of the Source, we are little gods."

"...part of me doesn't want to believe that auto-eroticism while crushing on a doodle (sigil) could manifest a check in the mail box, but hey, it did."

"Everybody laughs the same language."

December 11, 2013, 04:45:05 PM
Reply #13

Steve

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Thank you for the responses.

What everybody seems to be talking about is about me making my choice whether to stay in the faith; what nobody seems to have touched on is what they think of the group ispecifically mentioned in the original post. What do you guys think of them?
They're a church, like many others. They have the people who dictate the principles of the church, and they have the principles themselves, and they have the group of people. They believe various core precepts that christians of most denominations believe in. They miss out on various core precepts, as various denominations tend to do. They have their own translation of the bible. They have certain beliefs about their religion which other denominations would think is pretty odd.

From the little I read up on it, they seem fairly "dime a dozen" as a christian denomination. And in that sense, I'd still say ignore them. If you don't want to be a christian, or don't want to be part of that church, then you don't have to do either.

~Steve
Mastery does not occur when you've performed a feat once or twice. Instead, it comes after years of training, when you realize that you no longer notice when you're performing a feat which used to require so much effort. Even walking takes years of training for a human: why not everything else?

January 18, 2014, 03:57:00 PM
Reply #14

Constructman

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Necropost, but I thought I'd dump this here as well, just for reference. (It's a page with web links to recordings of various video messages, for anybody who's curious).

http://churchincalgary.org/downloads.html