Author Topic: Believe.  (Read 5223 times)

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October 11, 2013, 05:04:32 AM
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Collidescope

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Believe.
The message has been to Just Believe and it will be so- Because You are God, One and all, the Alpha and Omega.
So how can we Just-ify Believing?
First we must believe that such a thing is possible..
But we need evidence for that..
Which we also need evidence to back that up with.
For it is the associations we make, to the experiences we have, that determine the emotions we associate to those experiences, which determines how we make associations to new experiences-and so on and so forth.
And we don't understand this about ourselves intellectually to start with, let alone knowing of past discrepancies, which create more discrepancy as you go- So it initially seems like everything is fine, but then turns out to be chalk full of holes, but oh well, it's deterministic and cant be changed anyway.
But remember- it was chalk full of holes, and many are seemingly invisible.. And if the state is true that
-To the degree that the perspective of the subjective is unreal to the perspective of the objective, is the degree to which the subjective with experience suffering.- An accurate perspective would create the most equilibrium..
Just Believe, but I am trying to prove to myself that if you just Believe in something that can't be proven without Believing in it first...
See this is a paradox.. and this is why Nobody can fly yet, let alone why we are all still on earth in war and suffering.

Now how do you overcome a paradox..?
..
First you must believe it is possible... :wink:


 :headwall:
« Last Edit: October 11, 2013, 05:11:05 AM by Collidescope »

October 11, 2013, 01:00:56 PM
Reply #1

Mind_Bender

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Not to burst your bubble, but beliefs only go so far. Although it is strange certain things only present themselves upon belief and certain paradoxes are quite unnerving and fantastic, there is much more than an 'agreement' to the systems and structures of the universe, physical and spiritual. Whether we are intelligently designed by a godhead, spewed from a starry butt hole or created this universe in a state of spiritual grace we no longer, in human form with human perceptions, have complete control over creation. We have a lot of control over our desires and abilities but we are not gods, we are humans; highly evolved, intelligent and powerful creatures, but we are not gods and cannot fathom their power or sense of awareness (why we all argue over what is spiritually true and real and what gods do what and rule over who, etc, etc). Gods are abstract, thus their power is abstract, thus as humans we have little control over these aspects of godhead although we do have amazing power none the less that are confused with godhood.

I'm not trying to make you wrong as I used to believe in what you posted, but as I tell a lot of the new members here- be ready to get your beliefs challenged, sometimes harshly, and hopefully learn something of value for yourself, your path and your loved ones.
"Spirit is in a state of grace forever.
Your reality is only spirit.
Therefore you are in a state of grace forever."

"As relfections of the Source, we are little gods."

"...part of me doesn't want to believe that auto-eroticism while crushing on a doodle (sigil) could manifest a check in the mail box, but hey, it did."

"Everybody laughs the same language."

October 11, 2013, 03:51:48 PM
Reply #2

Steve

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So, in this sense, Collidescope, what is the difference between believing versus pretending?

"I believe I am God. I believe I can fly."

versus

"I pretend I am God. I pretend I can fly."

Step 1) Believe you can fly.
Step 2) Jump off a ledge.
Step 3) Fly! Or fall to your death!
Step 4) Profit. Or, be carried away in a body bag.

~Steve
Mastery does not occur when you've performed a feat once or twice. Instead, it comes after years of training, when you realize that you no longer notice when you're performing a feat which used to require so much effort. Even walking takes years of training for a human: why not everything else?

October 11, 2013, 07:43:47 PM
Reply #3

Collidescope

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The bubble doesn't have to burst, and the problem is exactly just that.

Without Proof that just Believing would work, I can't make myself Believe.. But there is no proof that you can give yourself to really make you believe, because if you did- you would actually be able to fly.. but the fact is.. the proof is really already there.. We just cant see it.. Because we are it.. (like trying to see under your own tongue, or the back of your own head, without a mirror)- and in the meantime not seeing the proof that it's possible, is the proof it won't happen.
Cyclical Existence.

Ouch. My head hurts.




October 11, 2013, 09:28:44 PM
Reply #4

Mind_Bender

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Your 'head hurts' because you think too much about abstract concepts without any practical work on your theories, at least that's how it comes off.
"Spirit is in a state of grace forever.
Your reality is only spirit.
Therefore you are in a state of grace forever."

"As relfections of the Source, we are little gods."

"...part of me doesn't want to believe that auto-eroticism while crushing on a doodle (sigil) could manifest a check in the mail box, but hey, it did."

"Everybody laughs the same language."

October 11, 2013, 09:29:09 PM
Reply #5

Steve

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because if you did- you would actually be able to fly
This part right here is the danger. You presuppose that belief alone can reshape the laws of physics. Yet, you have no proof to offer to show that it works, instead using the logic that "proof isn't needed; only belief is needed".

The problem is that if a person believes, and then jumps off a cliff, one of two things will happen: 1) they will fly, 2) they will splat.

If they fly, then you are totally correct and you will have your proof.

If they splat, then you just declare that they didn't believe "properly", or strongly/purely/whatever enough. There is no way to prove the claim wrong. It is unfalsifiable by simply stating that anyone who splats "didn't truly believe... but if they had, then they would have flown."

~Steve
Mastery does not occur when you've performed a feat once or twice. Instead, it comes after years of training, when you realize that you no longer notice when you're performing a feat which used to require so much effort. Even walking takes years of training for a human: why not everything else?

October 11, 2013, 10:05:44 PM
Reply #6

Koujiryuu

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This is a fundamental problem with metaphysics and the nature of objective truth that I have difficulty quantifying.

Proof is often subjective and limited to our direct experiences. Sure, we can set up scientific situations to show proof of certain abilities like psychokinesis, heating up the hands, and so on to others. However, many more abilities are entirely subjective because they are only experienceable directly by the person doing them, such as clairvoyance, clairaudience, astral projection, OBEs, telepathy and so forth. There are ways of confirming whether or not your information is real, such as remote viewing a place near you and then actually going there in reality to confirm what you saw, but many of things operate on an abstract level that makes it difficult to prove to others (such as leaving the body and going to other dimensions/realities and so on).

How does belief factor into this?

Simple. People believe in their direct experiences, which is totally natural to do. However, oftentimes this makes those people sound crazy to others when they talk about their astral projections and so on. Belief fuels these experiences, and though I can't believe some of them myself, I don't doubt that those having them honestly believe that they happened. To me, it may sound like a hallucination or even a delusion, but to them, it's something that really happened. However, there seems to be no real way to prove these things actually happened and aren't some kind of psychosis or hallucination.

I can only come to the conclusion that there is a subjective reality and an objective reality, where the subjective reality is fueled by experience and belief, and the objective reality is fueled entirely by truth. What we experience, we believe in. This is subjective and different for everyone.

One person might have experiences that prove to them that God is real and communicable on a personal level in the form of Jesus Christ. Another person may have no success with this method, and instead find God an impersonal force that they tap into through meditation. Another different person might not have success with either of these, and become an atheist instead. These are all subjective truths and are deeply personal. How can we possibly say which one of them is correct?

With something like the laws of physics and the nature of reality, it's a little easier, because as pointed out, either you fly or you fall. I'm 100% sure that every single time, the person is going to fall. That's the nature of objective reality and the truth of the principle of gravity. In this kind of situation, it is easy to see that belief cannot possibly influence reality. However, in the examples given above, belief definitely DOES influence reality, at the very least the reality of the person having the experience. That belief may even lead to them having access to information psychically that they can then verify in reality, thus making the experience more objective.

The more I think about these things, the less I understand. However, I know this much- until we can resolve the subjective nature of psychic experiences, metaphysics will continue to remain an unproven fringe activity. Personally, I like it better that way, but I know others want to see it become available to humanity on the whole.

Kouji
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October 11, 2013, 10:32:45 PM
Reply #7

Koujiryuu

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I disagree.

Don't you have anything better to do than to respond to every single post I make on the forums and tell me I'm wrong? All the time?

Get a life.
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Gone from Veritas forever. Blame the staff.

November 08, 2013, 02:31:29 AM
Reply #8

Collidescope

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Manifest the evidence for you to believe,,, The evidence for you to believe.
That manifesting the evidence to believe, by believing there is evidence,
manifests the evidence in which would make you believe, so as to Know
that believing actually works, which is actually Knowing.

 :HA!:
 :D

November 08, 2013, 02:43:12 AM
Reply #9

Enchia

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What you keep saying doesn't make much sense and it seems to me that you don't really have a clear conception about what you are talking about. It seems like you are just putting words on feelings and claim them as knowledge. Which I think is the core issue of what believe is. The problem is that such kind of reasoning is not very likely be able to deal with what is actually true instead of what feels to be true.

November 08, 2013, 02:51:01 AM
Reply #10

Mars

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I think non of us have the definitive answer on truth, otherwise that would make us God.

So far I think that we don't know any absolute truths when it comes to the more complex questions of the universe, like why are we here ? what are we doing ? how did everything come to be ?  a lot of spiritual things require your own truth, I think you would only truly know when you pass on to the great beyond if you were mentally capable of ascending from your physical form, but I know of no-one who has been capable of that.
Experience: that most brutal of teachers. But you learn, my God do you learn. -CS Lewis
Cultivation to the mind is as necessary as food to the body. - Marcus T Cicero

November 14, 2013, 11:04:42 AM
Reply #11

Collidescope

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Quote
Which I think is the core issue of what believe is.
Seems to me that anything and everything we concede is a belief...
Based upon presumptions, that may be conscious or unconscious..

Quote
not very likely be able to deal with what is actually true instead of what feels to be true.
Therefor I am attempting to suggest through a process of deductive reasoning, that do to the nature of consciousness, with the consideration of many interpretations and observations in quantum mechanics, that the environment responds and can be altered through a certain mechanism of belief..
That just believing that something is possible, gives rise to possibliy of a way being discovered and understood, through the the potentiality of an infinite reality.

See the problem arises when the paradox is reached, but the paradox is itself the nature of Reality..
That a seeming contradiction appears- that there is an objective perspective separate from subjective perspectives..
But in reality, the Subjective Perspectives are what determine the Objective Reality.

Quote
I think non of us have the definitive answer on truth, otherwise that would make us God.
That when one comes to understand the depths of how everything, you, me, this, that, every atom and particle and anti-matter in existence- Is God.. That we are the cosmos evolved into beings that can ponder and contemplate it's own (the cosmos') existence, and even contemplate that we can contemplate about it..
When we awaken to an undeniable realization of Unity with the cosmos, that the cosmos only exists through Consciousness, and that consciousness is the Self. Then we are free to be Who and What we truly are, with all the power and potential that entails, instead of being inhibited and disassociated through a misconception/misidentification..

This is all with consideration towards the repeated historical anecdotes of theologians and philosophers repeating implying such Interconnection and Transcendentalism.. as well as modern equations and experiments in quantum physics, conceptualizing the Source and Fabric of Reality.


November 14, 2013, 12:26:54 PM
Reply #12

Mind_Bender

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You realize the mystics of past and present put themselves through grueling physical, mental and spiritual training? Mystics, past and present, did not formulate the pragamtic books and theology on beliefs but on principles they noticed in Nature (being the whole of their known existence).

Subjective reality helps one understand and formulates abstract equations and excuses of misunderstanding towards objective reality. Subjective reality is powerful on a basis of individuality and understanding the external universe through such an understanding, but it does not altogether formulate objective reality (althouh I would like to believe this).

Your idea that beleifs can literally become things seems to be based on mistranslated and perverted mystic teachings. They were written with obscurity for a reason, so the public defines it personally not what it really represents. We can each intetpret what any given scripture means based on personal gnosis and what our teachers may have taught us, but those teachers are not the ancient mystics, scribes and code- makers of the original scripture. All that to say, interpret what you must, but their is a reality beyond our own subjective reasoning and desires, althogh the subjective aspect can be quite powerful in manifesting desires.
"Spirit is in a state of grace forever.
Your reality is only spirit.
Therefore you are in a state of grace forever."

"As relfections of the Source, we are little gods."

"...part of me doesn't want to believe that auto-eroticism while crushing on a doodle (sigil) could manifest a check in the mail box, but hey, it did."

"Everybody laughs the same language."

November 15, 2013, 11:36:22 AM
Reply #13

Feint

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This is my own opinion of how it is. Belief is like a fact until proven, therefore it is a theory. Once it is proven, it is like a law of physics where everything that goes up must come down. It is in fact proven, though in space, the law doesn't seem to work because of gravity not really pushing on you there. Fact cannot be proven unto a person no matter how many times someone tells them it worked. Most likely nowadays people need to experience what had gone at that moment because now special effects are within reach to the regular consumer. I believe everything that a mystic could do as well as a yogi, but I had not really experienced much to justify if they're legit. I still have to do my 3 day lemon water fast. I know that astral projection is legit because I have projected before, but you probably have not so you could only believe it works without putting it into action to know it works. Believing: Accept as true. Knowing: Done in Full awareness in consciousness.

November 15, 2013, 02:05:29 PM
Reply #14

Impervious

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Belief is like a fact until proven
Not quite. Definition of a fact (Google): "1. Something that is indisputably the case." This means that a fact is something that -definitely- happened. Most things accepted as facts have large mountains of evidence backing them up. A belief is more like an assumption that something is true, with or without corresponding evidence. Basically, a fact will almost always be held to far more rigorous standards than a belief will.

(If I say "I believe that it is not the case that gravity exists," it is a far cry from being "a fact until proven." Actually, something is usually only a fact once it HAS been proven.)

though in space, the law doesn't seem to work because of gravity not really pushing on you there.
To the contrary, gravity will always affect you, regardless of the distance between a planet and yourself. The law certainly works in space; a specific planetary body's influence will simply weaken the farther you get from it. (Though its influence will never completely dissipate over any distance).

Fact cannot be proven unto a person no matter how many times someone tells them it worked.
I would say that the large majority of facts can be rigorously proven. It's just that some people don't understand basic concepts like "proof" and "evidence". So, really, if people choose to disregard facts that have ridiculous amounts of evidence supporting them, those people are... dumb.
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