Author Topic: My theory: Soul, Body, Mind / NDE's  (Read 6944 times)

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October 02, 2013, 01:12:57 PM
Reply #30

Mars

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I cannot fully describe what Mind Bender is talking about, but in my tradition there are following truths:
1) Body, Spirit and Soul are not separated, but seamlessly joined, one would hardly find where one begins and one ends
2) Astral and Material worlds are merged the same way as Body is merged with the Soul, one resembles the other and one is influenced by the other.
3) Ad 2, what happens in one world is reflected in the other world, therefore by working on one plane, other plane is influenced, same applies to laws, a law of one plane must have its counter-part in the other world (eg gravity, force, continuum)

This basically says that material and immaterial are one and the same thing, a Soul or not.

Thank you... someone who understands that just cause I think everything is connected and influences each other doesn't necessarily mean I believe everything is material :P ^^ + Rep

Quote
I can escape circular logic and contradiction.
- Magiscist

Ok explain without a shadow of a doubt with full evidence how the universe came to be, and find away round the infinite regression science discoveries, or the fact that God created himself, just cause I believe the world cannot escape contradiction and logical fallacy does not mean I am a materialist in the pure sense and that I don't doubt the divine, I am a highly devout believer in god and jesus I just don't like to shove it down peoples throats so I act as an indifferent person and I play devils advocate a lot as to avoid bias in my theories.
« Last Edit: October 02, 2013, 01:22:22 PM by Mars »
Experience: that most brutal of teachers. But you learn, my God do you learn. -CS Lewis
Cultivation to the mind is as necessary as food to the body. - Marcus T Cicero

October 02, 2013, 01:49:30 PM
Reply #31

Mind_Bender

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Rayn, if a stone or plant has a specific energetic frequency, and it is a frequency because there is an exchange of waves between the witch and objects being used, it is an act of physical magic; it also counts as a vibration because of the to and fro motion of the witches will and the energetic signature of the objects creating an energetic change. Another thing, and we have discusseed this, I am not using words to fit my paradigm, these are words that describe in the best possible explanation of magical interaction using American words. In  Chinese we would say the Yi is projecting from the Shen which is changing the Qi that creates an effect on the Jing world, which all stems from Dao. Intent comes from the mind which changes the energetic structure into something tangible, but it is only possible because all aspects are interrelated. They have terms to explain the unexplainable where we, Americans, have to use scientific and engineering words slightly out of context. To you it's using words to fit a paradigm, to me it's using common words to explain uncommon things. And my definition of materialism is the same as what you wrote. I really don't understand why you are posting a definition of my point to argue with me.


"Spirit is in a state of grace forever.
Your reality is only spirit.
Therefore you are in a state of grace forever."

"As relfections of the Source, we are little gods."

"...part of me doesn't want to believe that auto-eroticism while crushing on a doodle (sigil) could manifest a check in the mail box, but hey, it did."

"Everybody laughs the same language."

October 02, 2013, 02:54:39 PM
Reply #32

Mind_Bender

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Common words to explain uncommon things used out of context because they are the best definitions I have come across in modern American language... so it is unimportant if a physicist, scientist or you thinks I am wrong. Psychologists might think me psychotic and a medium think me quite spiritual. Everything has an essence we can tap into and I believe this essence flows between electromagnetic, thought and mysterious energies. Akenu summed it up quite nicely.

"Spirit is in a state of grace forever.
Your reality is only spirit.
Therefore you are in a state of grace forever."

"As relfections of the Source, we are little gods."

"...part of me doesn't want to believe that auto-eroticism while crushing on a doodle (sigil) could manifest a check in the mail box, but hey, it did."

"Everybody laughs the same language."

October 02, 2013, 09:08:53 PM
Reply #33

The magicist

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Quote from: Mind_Bender
Besides, no one can really say where magic stems from or what it really is. It works and we each have our theories and experiences concerning it. Using the witch as an example, those tools and focal points hold their own intrinsic energy (especially the herbs and animals) and the witch just brings forth the power. On the other side of the debate the witch doesn't really need anything but their intention because the power lies outside of space and time but somehow is connected to them. Both practices are correct depending on your chosen skill set.
Anything that lies outside of space and time is certainly not material.
True, we don't know exactly how it works, but according to Occam's razor my view should be given the benefit of the doubt, by virtue of it's relative intuitivity and simplicity.
Quote from: Akenu
This basically says that material and immaterial are one and the same thing, a Soul or not.
Material and immaterial are clearly opposites, and you can see from that the word "immaterial" consists of the word "material" plus a negating prefix, "im-".
Quote from: Mars
Ok explain without a shadow of a doubt with full evidence how the universe came to be, and find a way round the infinite regression science discoveries, or the fact that God created himself, just cause I believe the world cannot escape contradiction and logical fallacy does not mean I am a materialist in the pure sense and that I don't doubt the divine, I am a highly devout believer in god and jesus I just don't like to shove it down peoples throats so I act as an indifferent person and I play devils advocate a lot as to avoid bias in my theories.
  • If the timeline is infinite, then we should be able to just skip infinitely far back and demand a beginning. The big bang, since it was an explosion, by definition presupposes the existence of time, space, and matter, so it couldn't have created any of them. The only other explanation seems to be that some kind of God, whether or not this deity is omnipotent and omnibenevolent and all that, must have created time, space, and matter.
  • God did not create himself. He is outside of time, so he is not subject to the "infinite back-skip" argument that refuted the materialist picture of the universe earlier.
Quote from: Mind_Bender
Rayn, if a stone or plant has a specific energetic frequency, and it is a frequency because there is an exchange of waves between the witch and objects being used, it is an act of physical magic;
Just because magic influences physical things will not suffice to prove that it can be explained in terms of the physical.
Quote from: Mind_Bender
And my definition of materialism is the same as what you wrote. I really don't understand why you are posting a definition of my point to argue with me.
No, Rayn's definition 1 is completely different from what you said.
Do not become comfortable with the purposeless pattern of everyday life, for the life of Piety is full of adventure.
Do not indulge in morbid or otherwise abhorrent thoughts, for a mindset of Mysticism confers a far superior pleasure.
Do not fear to sacrifice a small good to accomplish a larger one, for the ends justify the means.
Do not obsess with material things, for only the immaterial exis

October 02, 2013, 09:53:07 PM
Reply #34

Mind_Bender

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You are thinking in terms of duality, I am thinking in terms of polarity. Duality is two opposing forces at war if you will, polarity is two opposing forces with a common unity.

Materialism is the acquiring or love of the the physical and does or does not negate the immaterial view. Both definitions follow that logic.

Using Occam's Razor as your fall back is no good because my Razor is different than yours.

[EDIT] To elaborate, your Occam's Razor says all metaphysical phenemonon comes from something outside of space and time. You being a theist and under the will of God I understand where you are coming from but expecting me, or anybody else, to give you the benefit of the doubt for your 'intuitivity and simplicity' is really not a logical argument and a bit, a lot, arrogant, because from my 'intuitivity and simplicity' all things are related, from the simple mass of rock to the unknown force or grace of a divine presence. That is how I was raised and what I have discovered along the way. I could argue to be given the benefit of the doubt for my own reasoning, but I don't expect anyone to follow my logic unless they have experienced similar situations for themselves. Even then, Occam's Razor comes down opinion. And as far as magic and mysticism are concerned, there are more opinions built upon personal experiences than absolute truth. This can be argued of course, but from the diverse views of the out spoken people of this forum alone, metaphysically and magically speaking, there is no room for argument just hard work, study and the sharing of ideas.
« Last Edit: October 02, 2013, 11:19:47 PM by Mind_Bender »
"Spirit is in a state of grace forever.
Your reality is only spirit.
Therefore you are in a state of grace forever."

"As relfections of the Source, we are little gods."

"...part of me doesn't want to believe that auto-eroticism while crushing on a doodle (sigil) could manifest a check in the mail box, but hey, it did."

"Everybody laughs the same language."

October 03, 2013, 01:44:37 AM
Reply #35

Mars

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Quote
    - Magiscist
    • If the timeline is infinite, then we should be able to just skip infinitely far back and demand a beginning. The big bang, since it was an explosion, by definition presupposes the existence of time, space, and matter, so it couldn't have created any of them. The only other explanation seems to be that some kind of God, whether or not this deity is omnipotent and omnibenevolent and all that, must have created time, space, and matter.
    • God did not create himself. He is outside of time, so he is not subject to the "infinite back-skip" argument that refuted the materialist picture of the universe earlier.
Points to add
1.  In your logic God exists because he exists... - Circular logic saying he is outside time and exists eternally is not escaping circular logic you are just saying god exists because he exists. (Which I may add Is a bad way to prove his existence from a neutral point of view) or maybe we cannont escape circular logic cause God iis circular logic, like ouroburos, beginning and and a circle, the endless cycle.
2. You didn't prove without a shadow of a doubt, no evidence.
3. You argue like I don't believe in a god
4. Anything that lies outside time and space is not material ? So what is it made up of ? nothing. Just because something is a extremely complex and almost virtual entity does not mean it is entirely 'Immaterial' , you define material with what we have in our 4 Dimensional existence, but things outside this like with unified field theory and string theory says you can have virtual particles that are made up of things and are specifically beyond our 4D existence but are still made up of things and therefore material.
5. You assume that because I think something can have material(Made of substance) explainations it suddenly takes the magic and the astral and the arcane and the beyond out of it.
6. The higher planes could not exist if they were made of nothing with substence, otherwise your opinion or version of heaven and god would be oblivion.[/list]
« Last Edit: October 03, 2013, 01:57:22 AM by Mars »
Experience: that most brutal of teachers. But you learn, my God do you learn. -CS Lewis
Cultivation to the mind is as necessary as food to the body. - Marcus T Cicero

October 03, 2013, 06:18:35 PM
Reply #36

The magicist

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Quote from: Mind_Bender
Materialism is the acquiring or love of the the physical and does or does not negate the immaterial view. Both definitions follow that logic.
No, materialism is the belief in only material substances. Any decent dictionary or wikipedia will tell you that.
Quote from: Mind_Bender
Using Occam's Razor as your fall back is no good because my Razor is different than yours.
First, I'm not falling back. You haven't pushed me into conceding anything at all.
Second, you appear not to have the slightest idea of what Occam's razor is. Occam's razor is the principle that given two possible explanations of a fact, if both have equal merit than the more intuitive one should be believed.
Quote from: Mind_Bender
You are thinking in terms of duality, I am thinking in terms of polarity. Duality is two opposing forces at war if you will, polarity is two opposing forces with a common unity.
What "common unity" do physical things have with immaterial things?
Quote from: Mars
Points to add
1.  In your logic God exists because he exists... - Circular logic saying he is outside time and exists eternally is not escaping circular logic you are just saying god exists because he exists. (Which I may add Is a bad way to prove his existence from a neutral point of view) or maybe we cannont escape circular logic cause God iis circular logic, like ouroburos, beginning and and a circle, the endless cycle.
2. You didn't prove without a shadow of a doubt, no evidence.
3. You argue like I don't believe in a god
4. Anything that lies outside time and space is not material ? So what is it made up of ? nothing. Just because something is a extremely complex and almost virtual entity does not mean it is entirely 'Immaterial' , you define material with what we have in our 4 Dimensional existence, but things outside this like with unified field theory and string theory says you can have virtual particles that are made up of things and are specifically beyond our 4D existence but are still made up of things and therefore material.
5. You assume that because I think something can have material(Made of substance) explainations it suddenly takes the magic and the astral and the arcane and the beyond out of it.
6. The higher planes could not exist if they were made of nothing with substence, otherwise your opinion or version of heaven and god would be oblivion.
1. No, I did not say God exists because he exists. I said the first cause thingy doesn't apply to God because since God is non-temporal It's existence is not an infinite regression.
2. You asked me to escape circular logic and contradiction, not to provide complete proof for all of my views.
3. What does your belief in God have to do with my views?
4a. There are three dimensions of physical reality, not four.
4b. Something doesn't have to be "made up of" anything to exist. You act like if we can't visually represent something then it can't exist, but you forget that your very belief is such things and space and matter are inferences from your sensory experiences. And if your perception can give your grounds for believing in such a notion then why can't your introspection? Keep in mind that your introspection is the means by which you know what you believe. Your mind, as reported to you by introspection, is certainly substantive, yet lacks properties such as space and mass. Thus, to believe in immaterial substances is well-grounded.
4c. I said nothing about immaterial things being complex. Compared to something like the brain, the soul is extremely simple.
5. I ask you to define "magic".
6. It isn't clear what you mean by "higher planes", but I assure you immaterial things are substances (except the ones that are abstracts). To avoid commitment to that proposition, you would have to replace "substance" in your statement with "physical substance", and once you do that the substance becomes nothing but a clearly biased advocation of materialism.
Do not become comfortable with the purposeless pattern of everyday life, for the life of Piety is full of adventure.
Do not indulge in morbid or otherwise abhorrent thoughts, for a mindset of Mysticism confers a far superior pleasure.
Do not fear to sacrifice a small good to accomplish a larger one, for the ends justify the means.
Do not obsess with material things, for only the immaterial exis

October 03, 2013, 10:10:31 PM
Reply #37

Mind_Bender

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Materialism (from the Pocket Merriam-Webster Dictionary):

1. A theory that everything can be explained as being or coming from matter- which is your point.
2. A preoccupation with material rather than intellectual or spiritual things- spending money is a preoccupation in our modern world of commerce, so this defines my point. We are both right.

And according to the Pocket Oxford American Dictionary:

1. A tendency to consider material possessions and physical comfort as more important than spiritual matters- which means I am not a materialist and, once again, suggests the acquiring of physical goods. You got me on the second part, though ('does or does not negate the immaterial view').

Being intuitive makes it personal which makes it an opinion and that is not exactly what Occam's Razor is, it is choosing the simplest of two options.

The Pocket Oxford American Dictionary says:

1. The principle that in explaining something no more assumptions should be made than are necessary- which points to simplicity and not intuition, and it is a fallback because it is the second or third time you have thrown Occam's Razor in a debate.

The common unity between material and immaterial is energy and its various manifestations and why I clearly stated I work from the energy-mind paradigm. You are coming from the view that there is material and immaterial and no middle ground, at least that's how it comes off, and I do not believe in nor follow that logic. Difference of opinion by the principles of Occam's Razor and free will.
"Spirit is in a state of grace forever.
Your reality is only spirit.
Therefore you are in a state of grace forever."

"As relfections of the Source, we are little gods."

"...part of me doesn't want to believe that auto-eroticism while crushing on a doodle (sigil) could manifest a check in the mail box, but hey, it did."

"Everybody laughs the same language."

October 03, 2013, 11:23:50 PM
Reply #38

Mars

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You are saying he exists because he exist ! you may flesh it out by saying hes non-temporal so it doesn't count but you have no explanation how he came to be except that he has always been, which is infinitely being stuck in the same position as we started, back to Ouroboros or infinity.

You are so wrong about the dimensions of reality, there are 4 dimensions x y z and time... almost every scientist worth his salt talks of 4D

Something does have to be made up of something to exist or it is nothing, something made of nothing has no form and there for is delusion, all I am saying Is I believe when advanced enough we would see evidence for psi, the soul and the mind above traditional materialism. I believe that everything may have some energy or particle making it up, that does not make me a materialist though, If you study deeply into quantum physics you would understand that there are such things as virtual, simulated and temporary particles. Is it wrong to believe everything is made up of energy ? Even God which is infinite ? I'm not advocating materialism at all, you completely diverted off my original point was that they would have some form of physical medium anyway, some connection to the physical world but you implied there was no connection what so ever.

Also does it matter when I'm using general terminology or umbrella terminology to describe one thing ? I don't have to define everything I say.

If the soul was that simple it would not contain a conscious, the soul must be far more complex in some way then our brain or our body.

and I'm not going to bother responding to all of your points as you clearly misunderstood my point and are being obstinate for the sake of being right.



« Last Edit: October 03, 2013, 11:33:57 PM by Mars »
Experience: that most brutal of teachers. But you learn, my God do you learn. -CS Lewis
Cultivation to the mind is as necessary as food to the body. - Marcus T Cicero

October 04, 2013, 12:34:18 AM
Reply #39

Akenu

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Quote from: Akenu
This basically says that material and immaterial are one and the same thing, a Soul or not.
Material and immaterial are clearly opposites, and you can see from that the word "immaterial" consists of the word "material" plus a negating prefix, "im-".

Of course, language is always created by adepts of Magick ;-)

Quote
Quote from: Mind_Bender
Rayn, if a stone or plant has a specific energetic frequency, and it is a frequency because there is an exchange of waves between the witch and objects being used, it is an act of physical magic;
Just because magic influences physical things will not suffice to prove that it can be explained in terms of the physical.

It can be observed in terms of the physical which proves the interconnection between material and immaterial, yet you still advocate this New Age idea of physical and spiritual being separated.

October 04, 2013, 01:18:52 AM
Reply #40

Mind_Bender

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The four dimensions are up/down (Earth), left/right (Fire), forward/backward (Water) and temporal shifts, time (Air), which is physical because it measures physicality through the movement of space. Esoterically this could be symbolized by a black square or Sun Wheel (equal armed cross within a circle). Space is immaterial and may be called the fifth dimension (in witchcraft this would be Void or Spirit), although scientifically this may not be the correct dimensional arena of space. The five dimensions, in elemental form, are symbolized by the infamous pentagram, the four lower elements (Void/Spirit is the top point) are physical reality ruled over by an immaterial abstraction. This means they are related and work hand in hand.

I say all that to show that not only are there four dimensions in our physical reality but that symbolism, being abstract, contains all the mysteries of science and civilization- boy meets girl, or, the material meets the immaterial. Every religious and spiritual symbolism represents this connection of the material to the immaterial, otherwise there would be no religion. Qabalism explains above Kether are three levels of supernal light, at Kether is God as One, to Chokmah than to Binah, the God and Goddess respectively, and so on until Malkuth is reached, the physical world we currently occupy. Not only does it represent the creation from God to Man, but Qliphotically, the Fall from Heaven- where angels once held omnipotent status, now they are still powerful deific forces upon or watching over this Earth, but they are forever rejected from the Halls of Heaven and God's Grace. Don't misunderstand this as all deific forces aside from God are evil (I certainly don't believe this) but they fell because they give a damn about humanity and Earth, so much so they bred with humans and created divine children. That story, which I am pretty sure can be found in Genesis, connects God's omnipotent and immaterial power with humanties physical limitations and understanding.
"Spirit is in a state of grace forever.
Your reality is only spirit.
Therefore you are in a state of grace forever."

"As relfections of the Source, we are little gods."

"...part of me doesn't want to believe that auto-eroticism while crushing on a doodle (sigil) could manifest a check in the mail box, but hey, it did."

"Everybody laughs the same language."

October 04, 2013, 10:27:48 PM
Reply #41

The magicist

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Quote from: Mind_Bender
1. The principle that in explaining something no more assumptions should be made than are necessary- which points to simplicity and not intuition, and it is a fallback because it is the second or third time you have thrown Occam's Razor in a debate.
For the present purpose, intuitivity is a synonym for simplicity. Also, that definition of Occam's razor is not much different from what I said.
Quote from: Mars
You are saying he exists because he exist ! you may flesh it out by saying hes non-temporal so it doesn't count but you have no explanation how he came to be except that he has always been, which is infinitely being stuck in the same position as we started, back to Ouroboros or infinity.
If you think I said that, re-read my post. I said that the first cause argument doesn't work on him because his existence is not a sequence, like ours. Also, why do I need to explain why God exists?
Quote from: Mars
You are so wrong about the dimensions of reality, there are 4 dimensions x y z and time... almost every scientist worth his salt talks of 4D
Even immaterial things are bound by time, therefore time isn't a physical dimension. I don't care what scientists say. This is a matter of philosophy, not science.
Quote from: Mars
Something does have to be made up of something to exist or it is nothing, something made of nothing has no form and there for is delusion,
This assumption is 100% ungrounded. Read my post again for a refutation of it via introspection.
Quote from: Mars
If the soul was that simple it would not contain a conscious, the soul must be far more complex in some way then our brain or our body.
Consciousness is not about complexity. This is self-evident.
Quote from: Mars
and I'm not going to bother responding to all of your points as you clearly misunderstood my point and are being obstinate for the sake of being right.
If you have decided to resort to making excuses for dodging my arguments, then fine. I'm going to start ignoring you.
Quote from: Akenu
It can be observed in terms of the physical which proves the interconnection between material and immaterial, yet you still advocate this New Age idea of physical and spiritual being separated.
It is positively incoherent to suggest that the immaterial can be observed in terms of the physical.
Quote from: Mind_Bender
The four dimensions are up/down (Earth), left/right (Fire), forward/backward (Water) and temporal shifts, time (Air), which is physical because it measures physicality through the movement of space. Esoterically this could be symbolized by a black square or Sun Wheel (equal armed cross within a circle). Space is immaterial and may be called the fifth dimension (in witchcraft this would be Void or Spirit), although scientifically this may not be the correct dimensional arena of space. The five dimensions, in elemental form, are symbolized by the infamous pentagram, the four lower elements (Void/Spirit is the top point) are physical reality ruled over by an immaterial abstraction. This means they are related and work hand in hand.
  • That is not all time measures. Time also applies to immaterial things, therefore it isn't specifically physical.
  • Don't play games. Space is physical.
Do not become comfortable with the purposeless pattern of everyday life, for the life of Piety is full of adventure.
Do not indulge in morbid or otherwise abhorrent thoughts, for a mindset of Mysticism confers a far superior pleasure.
Do not fear to sacrifice a small good to accomplish a larger one, for the ends justify the means.
Do not obsess with material things, for only the immaterial exis