Author Topic: My theory: Soul, Body, Mind / NDE's  (Read 6941 times)

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September 27, 2013, 03:55:47 PM
Reply #15

Mars

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I would imagine it's because the spine is basically the nervous system so all electromagnetic impulses (neurons) fire from the brain to   the spine throughout the rest of your physical and energetic internal systems. Spinal tapping (taking fluid samples from the spine) often causes flashbacks (acid memories) from LSD users, so the spinal system is strongly connected to the pineal and pituiatry glands in the brain, the two glands said to cause psychic flashes and out right hallucinations (that some could consider being visions). The pineal gland holds DMT, the 'God Molecule', which is the chemical that causes spiritual insight, shaman visions, and all sorts of altered states of consciousness. It's basically a chemical of spirituality, not to mention DMT resides in almost all life on planet Earth.

Exactly, without some form of physical component to psi or magic it wouldn't work, It has to interact with us on some level, maybe DMT is the buffer between our physical conciouss and our higher conciouss ?

No, hallucinations are not psychic visions. No, the pineal gland doesn't cause psychic anything. And, no, psi doesn't require a physical component since, by its nature, it is not physical. Because I hate retyping, I'll just post something from something I wrote for my website:


... Psychic phenomena extend beyond the physical boundaries of people, and other organisms, and is also intentional(where intentional isn't meant in the sense of being purely by conscious choice; rather, intentional is meant to mean that which is predicated by mental states) in ways that represent physical fields. This resemblance to local fields normally elicits the response of attempting to describe it in the sense of some unknown particle, electromagnetism, and electromagnetic fields; however, as was stated earlier, electromagnetic fields exists within space-time, vary with distance, and cannot(by definition of it being physical) move non locally into the future or the past. The same holds true for any kind of physical particle or energy(they would be constrained to dimensions of space and time).

Precognition along with retrocognition, by their nature, violate the concept of causal closure in that the concept of a causal closure states that something cannot exit the domain and enter from a different point in that the physical domain is closed, or this is to say that the consciousness of a person cannot move into the past, enter into that past moment, sense that past moment, and then return to the present in that it violates the concept of the temporal closure of the physical world and thus implies that there exists domains other than the physical world. Since the brain is a physical entity that is electrochemical, and electrochemical things are grounded within space and time, this means there is an aspect of consciousness that extends beyond the physical brain.

The typical archetypal conception of non-physical objects is that they are inert relative to the physical world or this is to say that they cannot do anything on their own since the idea is that actions cannot be performed unless some sort of physical force is applied. As was pointed out earlier, physical objects cannot move outside of space and time; however, non-physical entities can move outside of space and time to different points within space and time. This means that instead of the physical world being a superset of everything that exists, the physical world would actually be a subset of a non-physical world, so versus there existing physical causes responsible for everything that is, non-physical causes would exist and thus give rise to physical actions thereby making non-physical actions not inert. This is especially the case with psychokinesis...


The Non-Physical Nature of Psi

Control of your hallucinations through visualization, body and breath work (mysticism, mediumship and sorcery) you could, theoretically, connect your DMT output (hallucination) to that of another person, animal or plant, thus causing metaphysical change. It's like sympathetic magic where DMT is the connecting agent of your will to your desire. This is obviously beyond just brain-to-spine electric current but could help explain the Siddhis (magical powers), at least on a molecular level. Rupart Sheldrake talks about what he calls the 'Morphogenetic field' that is similar to this idea if you're intereted in the connection between biology and psychic energy.

No, Rupert Sheldrake doesn't say any of that. What you are saying isn't part of his concept of a morphogenetic field(if you disagree, please include a citation that directly references this).

If psi has absoloutely no connection to the physical ? whats the point of practicing it ? How does it heal you ? how does it interact with the world around you, how do you move things. I think that's a rather sloppy opinion, just because something has a physical component does not destroy its metaphysical nature. I'm not saying its entirely physical but saying it has no physical nature what so ever, you might as well think its imaginary. For psi to have any effect on the real world there has to be a physical agent. Why can't DMT cause both hallucinations and psychic visions ? maybe a psychic vision is DMT with controlled information input ? People who trip out or do drugs may be hallucinating but what their seeing is just chaotic random images as the information they are receiving has no form.
Experience: that most brutal of teachers. But you learn, my God do you learn. -CS Lewis
Cultivation to the mind is as necessary as food to the body. - Marcus T Cicero

September 27, 2013, 06:39:10 PM
Reply #16

Mind_Bender

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For a scientist and academic with psi ability you sure don't read into things too well. Let me highlight why:

Like I said, it's a bit New Age, so science plays little part. Even so, whatever they are referring to as the pineal gland has caused psychic experience for me. I know the difference between hallucination and psychic vision but many use the word hallucination to explain psychic vision in a way they understand it. That's all I meant.

You don't get to redefine words and phrases as suits you.

If you can understand the bolded statements, than I didn't redefine any words to fit my definition but was referring to a subset of metaphysical practices to explain something that apparently uses words wrong.
« Last Edit: September 27, 2013, 07:27:47 PM by Mind_Bender »
"Spirit is in a state of grace forever.
Your reality is only spirit.
Therefore you are in a state of grace forever."

"As relfections of the Source, we are little gods."

"...part of me doesn't want to believe that auto-eroticism while crushing on a doodle (sigil) could manifest a check in the mail box, but hey, it did."

"Everybody laughs the same language."

September 28, 2013, 01:33:43 AM
Reply #17

The magicist

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Mind_Bender, you appear to be plagued by a common mental problem: materialist imagination. You don't ever seem to think of questioning some study that was supposedly done. But why couldn't it just be wrong? Or be a hoax? Also, you make a lot of odd assumptions against Rayn here:
Quote from: Mind_Bender
If psi has absoloutely no connection to the physical ? whats the point of practicing it ?
Everything that's not connected to the physical is pointless? Why?
Quote from: Mind_Bender
saying it has no physical nature what so ever, you might as well think its imaginary.
This seems flatly materialistic. Immaterial things aren't imaginary. I think it is rather physical things that are not fully real.
Quote from: Mind_Bender
For psi to have any effect on the real world there has to be a physical agent.
Says who? Besides, does the assertion that this must happen through a physical medium really change anything? How then would psi control this DMT stuff? It would still be immaterial --> material interaction. Thus, asserting that psi needs a physical means to affect the physical world does not eliminate the immaterial --> material interaction, and is thus out of accord with Occam's razor.
Do not become comfortable with the purposeless pattern of everyday life, for the life of Piety is full of adventure.
Do not indulge in morbid or otherwise abhorrent thoughts, for a mindset of Mysticism confers a far superior pleasure.
Do not fear to sacrifice a small good to accomplish a larger one, for the ends justify the means.
Do not obsess with material things, for only the immaterial exis

September 28, 2013, 02:38:24 AM
Reply #18

Mars

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This was not mind_bender these were my qoutes btw :P

Psi has to connect somehow to the physical world, our souls are connected to our body so the immaterial is connected to the physical. It needs to be able to permeate In some form in a physical fashion. If psi has no physical connection to the world then it could not influence this world, and we in our current physical forms would have difficulty connecting to it. I'd imagine the only purpose of practicing psionics would be to strengthen the soul, but then there wouldn't need to be all these articles on making 'luck constructs' or controlling weather or combat. Plus everything is physical in some sense, just because its a higher dimension to us, does not mean it has no physicality what so ever. This is why we use the term Metaphysics, I'm pretty sure although I don't have a full degree In quantum mechanics the universe is still physical in some sense on the lower levels even if you start studying virtual particles. They have some physicality maybe not in our sense of the word. But the spiritual realm must be made up of something or energy or psi otherwise if it is not made of something It cannot exist. Now im not saying its made of the same stuff we experience in this world but that doesn't mean you can just say it has no physicality.

Quote
Says who? Besides, does the assertion that this must happen through a physical medium really change anything? How then would psi control this DMT stuff? It would still be immaterial --> material interaction. Thus, asserting that psi needs a physical means to affect the physical world does not eliminate the immaterial --> material interaction, and is thus out of accord with Occam's razor.

If psi cannot connect to the physical it cannot interact with it, therefore there needs to be a physical medium, if you imply the metaphysical realms are entirely separate from the physical then it can have no effect on it. There has to be a cross over for it to physically effect anything. don't get me started on Occam's razor which is a rather lazy method It has been used as evidence to prove and disprove God, you also have to define which is the simpler solution.


Athiests Opinion

(1) There are two competing hypotheses:

a. A Universe and a God Who Created It
b. A Universe

(2) Hypothesis (b) is simpler than (a)

(3) Therefore based on Occam’s Razor (b) is held to be correct since there is no unequivocal evidence for (a).

My Opinion
(1)
a. A universe created out of nothing
b. a universe created by God

(2) (b) is simpler than (a) because we need to supply more mechanisms to create the universe leading to infinite regression.

Plus my point wasn't to prove you wrong it was to say DMT doesn't necessarily disprove psi or spiritual visions, I was playing Advocate here.
A lot of people who claim to have visions have been tested by scientists and they all agree that spiritual phenomena has a link to DMT, OBE's NDE's ect. Now these tests show that it is highly likely it is linked to spiritual experience. Whereas a materialist might see it as proof that they are just hallucinations, DMT a physical component doesn't necessarily means its physical entirely. As I said when they pump DMT into the system they might get some random hallucination, but maybe psi can manipulate DMT to make a coherant message, This is why I believe it has to have some kind of physical permutation. There has to be some organ in the body that can hold our souls connection and that can connect between the physical and metaphysical, or some part of our biology that allowed us to realize that such a plane exists.
« Last Edit: September 28, 2013, 02:44:52 AM by Mars »
Experience: that most brutal of teachers. But you learn, my God do you learn. -CS Lewis
Cultivation to the mind is as necessary as food to the body. - Marcus T Cicero

September 28, 2013, 03:44:28 AM
Reply #19

Enchia

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There has to be a cross over for it to physically effect anything. don't get me started on Occam's razor which is a rather lazy method It has been used as evidence to prove and disprove God, you also have to define which is the simpler solution.

As I understand it Occam's razor states that the conclusion with the least amount of assumptions is the one who is most likely true. Your first example is a good one to illustrate this point;

(1) There are two competing hypotheses:

a. A Universe and a God Who Created It
b. A Universe


Even though it is not a proper way to construct an hypothese, I'll let is slide for sake of the argument. Hypothese B is most likely true because it has the least amount of assumptions that has to be proven true in order for an hypothese to be true. For hypotheses A to be true there has to be a universe and it has to be created by God while for hypothese B there only has to be a universe to be true. The idea that God created is assumped it is more unlikely to be true because a universe could in theory exist without a god who created it. If that is the case then B is still true while A is not.

Your second example has so many things wrong with it that it doesn't even apply for Occam's razor.

Coming back to the topic at hand. It isn't like there is a direct connection between the brain and the object that is manipulated. Rather an intent originates in a person (whether in the brain or in the 'soul') then it moves through an energyfield/astral plain or label it as you want, then it reaches the target, which changes on an energetic level first and then it works it way down (depending on the intent) to the psychical plain as the intent manifests there.

September 28, 2013, 03:54:37 AM
Reply #20

Mind_Bender

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Being raised in the mind-energy paradigm ('mind leads the imagination, imagination leads the energy') everything is physical but gets subtler and subtler as we 'rise' in consciousness making the least subtlest energy portential seem like vapor compared to water but they are of the same essence.

According to New Age author Doreen Virtue (every path has something to offer) the physical plane is the most dense and it is the role of the spiritual person to expand the constricting force of reality into a more etheric state, but at a healthy pace so as not to cause too much friction and combustion- avoiding causing mega disasters from too much energetic output ( a theory that could explain the many nameless monks and nuns in solitude in some high off mountain). Basically, what New Agers would term 'Ascension' is the same as internal alchemy only geared for the world, the Universal, populace, meaning a cessation of pain, suffering and death because existing in an etheric state much more is possible with a little imagination.

In this scenerio the only God would be the collective individual consciousness of every intelligent creature and being of the Universe.
"Spirit is in a state of grace forever.
Your reality is only spirit.
Therefore you are in a state of grace forever."

"As relfections of the Source, we are little gods."

"...part of me doesn't want to believe that auto-eroticism while crushing on a doodle (sigil) could manifest a check in the mail box, but hey, it did."

"Everybody laughs the same language."

September 28, 2013, 04:22:02 PM
Reply #21

Mars

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There has to be a cross over for it to physically effect anything. don't get me started on Occam's razor which is a rather lazy method It has been used as evidence to prove and disprove God, you also have to define which is the simpler solution.

As I understand it Occam's razor states that the conclusion with the least amount of assumptions is the one who is most likely true. Your first example is a good one to illustrate this point;

(1) There are two competing hypotheses:

a. A Universe and a God Who Created It
b. A Universe


Even though it is not a proper way to construct an hypothese, I'll let is slide for sake of the argument. Hypothese B is most likely true because it has the least amount of assumptions that has to be proven true in order for an hypothese to be true. For hypotheses A to be true there has to be a universe and it has to be created by God while for hypothese B there only has to be a universe to be true. The idea that God created is assumped it is more unlikely to be true because a universe could in theory exist without a god who created it. If that is the case then B is still true while A is not.

Your second example has so many things wrong with it that it doesn't even apply for Occam's razor.

Coming back to the topic at hand. It isn't like there is a direct connection between the brain and the object that is manipulated. Rather an intent originates in a person (whether in the brain or in the 'soul') then it moves through an energyfield/astral plain or label it as you want, then it reaches the target, which changes on an energetic level first and then it works it way down (depending on the intent) to the psychical plain as the intent manifests there.

The second example is fine, We need to make more and more assumptions AS well within a universe with or without a God. As we have to ask ourselves what created the universe ? the big bang ? what created the big bang ? the multiverse what created the multiverse ? super stringy structure what created the super stringy structure, what created the thing which created the super stringy structure and the loop continues. My point was simple is the opinion of those who apply occam's razor. Both hypothesis do not escape the infinite circular logic which is my point. My hypothesis is fine with Occam's razor I believe is because I find that a God is a more logical and simple answer to infinite regression of more complex ideas to circumvent the idea of God. But I am not closed to the fact I might be wrong, to another person the fact the universe came out of nothing may be simple and need no further assumptions, whereas I believe it does, primarily how can something come out of nothing ect? ....
Experience: that most brutal of teachers. But you learn, my God do you learn. -CS Lewis
Cultivation to the mind is as necessary as food to the body. - Marcus T Cicero

September 28, 2013, 05:43:48 PM
Reply #22

The magicist

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Sorry about the quote misattribution, Mind_Bender. I think that's the second time I've falsely accused you.
Where are all you guys getting this "everything is physical" crap? Your belief in physicality at all is grounded solely on your perceptual experiences, which, according to themselves, can be wrong or misleading. Your other type of perception is called introspection, for which an error is conceptually incoherent. And introspection tells you nothing of these qualities of space and mass and such. So why must you subject the infallible means of perception to the fallible one?
Do not become comfortable with the purposeless pattern of everyday life, for the life of Piety is full of adventure.
Do not indulge in morbid or otherwise abhorrent thoughts, for a mindset of Mysticism confers a far superior pleasure.
Do not fear to sacrifice a small good to accomplish a larger one, for the ends justify the means.
Do not obsess with material things, for only the immaterial exis

September 28, 2013, 05:54:12 PM
Reply #23

Mars

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Sorry about the quote misattribution, Mind_Bender. I think that's the second time I've falsely accused you.
Where are all you guys getting this "everything is physical" crap? Your belief in physicality at all is grounded solely on your perceptual experiences, which, according to themselves, can be wrong or misleading. Your other type of perception is called introspection, for which an error is conceptually incoherent. And introspection tells you nothing of these qualities of space and mass and such. So why must you subject the infallible means of perception to the fallible one?

I never said everything is purely physical, and its certainly not crap... and how and what has my emotional processes go to do with it ? My point is that everything has to be made of something so when I use the term Physical I use it highly loosely. As Mind_Bender said with his point on density, the physical plane we live on being the most dense and ect. Just because I used the term physical, doesn't mean that everything spiritual is purely made of atoms and other stuff, but it must emit some kind of physical properties or influence over the physical. Which is a type of physicality itself, in the sense I mean it exists with components that make it up.

Also its hard to define whats infallible and fallible. Especially when dealing with such complex metaphysical subjects, we cannot escape circular logic or contradiction, therefore it is apt to sometimes compare opposing and often contradicting points. It doesn't necessarily mean I wholeheartedly support one side or another, once again I'm playing Devils Advocate there is no need to be so crass.
« Last Edit: September 28, 2013, 05:57:13 PM by Mars »
Experience: that most brutal of teachers. But you learn, my God do you learn. -CS Lewis
Cultivation to the mind is as necessary as food to the body. - Marcus T Cicero

September 28, 2013, 08:12:56 PM
Reply #24

Mind_Bender

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For me, studying magic, psi and energy work as a physical power alone helps me understand the magical aspects of physical reality. Personally, working with spirits and my Patron, among other divine emenations, is much easier when I work magic or connect psychically to my environment; and this is exactly the reason why I am currently studying and practicing magic through a more basic humanistic and mundane lense (the similarities between magic and psychology, science, imagination, etc). This way I can explain my beliefs and practices in a mundane way so would be nay-sayers understand it and it gives me an experiential understanding of creation through purely  'physical' means. I do consider energy a physical thing but subtle, and on and on until we reach the divine spark, of which is beyond space and time, but these are all just words to explain concepts and I conceptualize everything as vibratory frequencies- conscious or not.

This is another abstract view of creation and existence, of which I am fond, because in the mind-energy paradigm energy never ceases just changes, so everything is physical yet nothing is physical depending on the point in time and who is observing/experimenting.
"Spirit is in a state of grace forever.
Your reality is only spirit.
Therefore you are in a state of grace forever."

"As relfections of the Source, we are little gods."

"...part of me doesn't want to believe that auto-eroticism while crushing on a doodle (sigil) could manifest a check in the mail box, but hey, it did."

"Everybody laughs the same language."

September 29, 2013, 09:58:59 PM
Reply #25

The magicist

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Quote from: Mars
Also its hard to define whats infallible and fallible. Especially when dealing with such complex metaphysical subjects, we cannot escape circular logic or contradiction, therefore it is apt to sometimes compare opposing and often contradicting points.
I can escape circular logic and contradiction.

Gosh. I thought the community where everyone believes in magic wouldn't be a community of materialists and relativists. But I was wrong. This community is no better than the one at catholic answers.
Do not become comfortable with the purposeless pattern of everyday life, for the life of Piety is full of adventure.
Do not indulge in morbid or otherwise abhorrent thoughts, for a mindset of Mysticism confers a far superior pleasure.
Do not fear to sacrifice a small good to accomplish a larger one, for the ends justify the means.
Do not obsess with material things, for only the immaterial exis

September 29, 2013, 10:49:57 PM
Reply #26

Mind_Bender

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Just because someone sees and utilizes the magical power of the material doesn't immediately make them a materialist or relatavist. I am a spiritual seeker and the physical world is part of the spiritual world. Perceiving the physical with its own divine and magical nature aside from lofty and redeeming religious tones or stemming from an unknown point beyond space-time is not the same as a materialist viewpoint.

A materialist gathers and enjoys the lusts of the material world and only knows material pleasures, the magician or mystic who utilizes the underlying essence of the material world is not the same. A magician who sees and questions all possibilities is not the same as a relatavist. A relatavist assumes all things are connected and reacts because of something else (things being related) where an eclectic magician questions existence itself for the best possible answer to a full and happy, or at least interesting, life.
"Spirit is in a state of grace forever.
Your reality is only spirit.
Therefore you are in a state of grace forever."

"As relfections of the Source, we are little gods."

"...part of me doesn't want to believe that auto-eroticism while crushing on a doodle (sigil) could manifest a check in the mail box, but hey, it did."

"Everybody laughs the same language."

October 01, 2013, 09:21:49 PM
Reply #27

The magicist

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Quote from: Mind_Bender
Just because someone sees and utilizes the magical power of the material doesn't immediately make them a materialist or relatavist. I am a spiritual seeker and the physical world is part of the spiritual world. Perceiving the physical with its own divine and magical nature aside from lofty and redeeming religious tones or stemming from an unknown point beyond space-time is not the same as a materialist viewpoint.
  • How do you define spiritual?
  • What is magical or divine about the physical? God is not physical in any sense, and magic is done by the (also fully immaterial) soul.
Quote from: Mind_Bender
A materialist gathers and enjoys the lusts of the material world and only knows material pleasures, the magician or mystic who utilizes the underlying essence of the material world is not the same.
  • No, a materialist is someone who doesn't believe in immaterial things.
  • "The underlying essence of the material world" I think is a fluff phrase.
Do not become comfortable with the purposeless pattern of everyday life, for the life of Piety is full of adventure.
Do not indulge in morbid or otherwise abhorrent thoughts, for a mindset of Mysticism confers a far superior pleasure.
Do not fear to sacrifice a small good to accomplish a larger one, for the ends justify the means.
Do not obsess with material things, for only the immaterial exis

October 02, 2013, 12:09:32 AM
Reply #28

Mind_Bender

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Spirituality is hard to define and is different for everyone. My life and hobbies are my spirituality if I have to define it.

The physical world exists and your definition of God is different than mine and if God has nothing to do with the physical than how can we percieve 'him'? The Creator is the power behind, and the culmination of, all consciousness past, present and future and knows and abides in all things, and being all knowing and all abiding, how can they not be part of this physical realm?

The idea of magic being done by the soul still doesn't negate magic being a physical phenomenon. Witches use physical means of magic almost exclusively- herbs, candles, oils, natural elements, animal familiars all the while raising energy from the Earth and bringing it down from the Sky empowering themselves and area via breathing, incantation and even ecstatic dance.

Besides, no one can really say where magic stems from or what it really is. It works and we each have our theories and experiences concerning it. Using the witch as an example, those tools and focal points hold their own intrinsic energy (especially the herbs and animals) and the witch just brings forth the power. On the other side of the debate the witch doesn't really need anything but their intention because the power lies outside of space and time but somehow is connected to them. Both practices are correct depending on your chosen skill set.

The word materialist actually means what I wrote because I confirmed it with my dictionary before hand. You might have a different definition servitor.

"The underlying essence of the material world" is a traditional understanding of the material world. Those that are grounded to Earth and walk a spiritual path would call this 'psychic connection' or even 'magic' especially those from a science backround. Speaking of scientists, according to quantum theory everything vibrates and is just a frequency of sound and light, waves and particles. The ancients understood this in their own way via magic.
"Spirit is in a state of grace forever.
Your reality is only spirit.
Therefore you are in a state of grace forever."

"As relfections of the Source, we are little gods."

"...part of me doesn't want to believe that auto-eroticism while crushing on a doodle (sigil) could manifest a check in the mail box, but hey, it did."

"Everybody laughs the same language."

October 02, 2013, 05:32:21 AM
Reply #29

Akenu

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I cannot fully describe what Mind Bender is talking about, but in my tradition there are following truths:
1) Body, Spirit and Soul are not separated, but seamlessly joined, one would hardly find where one begins and one ends
2) Astral and Material worlds are merged the same way as Body is merged with the Soul, one resembles the other and one is influenced by the other.
3) Ad 2, what happens in one world is reflected in the other world, therefore by working on one plane, other plane is influenced, same applies to laws, a law of one plane must have its counter-part in the other world (eg gravity, force, continuum)

This basically says that material and immaterial are one and the same thing, a Soul or not.