Author Topic: Do you think society is breaking down with its lack of spirituality ?  (Read 18057 times)

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October 04, 2013, 02:02:05 AM
Reply #30

Silver_Archer

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I agree with what your saying Silver but do you not think the world is becoming a bit to Anti-Religous and Anti-Thiest now, and people are focusing on them and being selfish, I like the secular world of 1700's to 1950's but I think now things are getting out of hand. We have gone from one extreme to another.

No, I don't. I am an atheist. I don't like religion. I think it's stupid and dangerous. However, I ALSO don't like oppression, even if it is people being oppressed for practising a stupid and dangerous thing which, however, they are not hurting me with. I do not see this as 'the other extreme'. I see this as 'the right position'.
« Last Edit: October 04, 2013, 02:05:36 AM by Silver_Archer »
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October 04, 2013, 02:06:23 AM
Reply #31

Mars

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fair enough but religious people are being opressed now as well. Look at Communism and even in Britian on a much smaler scale religious sites are being banned I know its not as bad as china, and anything preaching religion is being controlled parliament almost tried to make it illegal to hold a religious procession outside on church grounds. Its no longer secular its anti-religion in some cases, if it was secular they wouldn't even bother focusing on it, thats my personal opinion. I don't want to convert you to believing in a God, but I think its unfair thats all, is it that bad ?

I personally don't think religion itself is stupid, I think its when people get together with an Ideal and there are another group of people with a conflicting ideal, it will clash 50% of the time, regardless whether it involves pink fluffy unicorns, flying spaghetti monsters, or God or which Athiest group has the right to debate which subjects (Southpark wink wink ;)  )
Religion doesn't intend to harm people on the surface it offers comfort and growth into the spiritual, but humans always find a way to abuse ideals regardless of anything behind it, and people will follow it as people in large groups  carried by a wave of emotion are not as intelligent as an individual.

Its like a hive mind problem, I mean we go down to the surface, If you look at different counties of England, for example I live in Merseyside, but there are a couple of Regions in it, each region accusses the other regions of being inbred, mostly joking, but its a pack mentality. Liverpool will always barge up against Manchester, not just cause of football but their two different groups. The same with england and Scotland. It reminds me of some joke I don't know the full details of it, But theres an Englishmen and a Scotsman in the bar arguing and then when the frenchman enters they both gang up on the french man. Its always pack mentality us against them, humans need to be able to transcend this mentality  I think. It is not only to do with Religion.
« Last Edit: October 04, 2013, 02:18:32 AM by Mars »
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October 04, 2013, 02:24:54 AM
Reply #32

Silver_Archer

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Religion doesn't intend to harm people on the surface it offers comfort and growth into the spiritual, but humans always find a way to abuse ideals regardless of anything behind it, and people will follow it as people in large groups  carried by a wave of emotion are not as intelligent as an individual.

Yet apparently secularism does intend to harm people and therefore must be destroyed, right? Because you are able to cite a few contemporary examples of some heavy handed government policy which happens to limit the freedoms of religious people a tad bit, or cite some contemporary autocratic regimes which, amongst a gigantic list of targets of oppression also happen to target the religious? That's enough to judge the entire philosophy and everybody who subscribes to it and deem all of it (and them) evil, or excessive, right?

But the centuries upon centuries of violent and terrible atrocities committed by religion must all be understood on a case-by-case basis as deeply nuanced events, and all blame must be laid upon individual humans who are 'abusing religious authority'?

Look, if you have an agenda and you care more about furthering it than caring about what's good for world at large, that's fine. You're hardly the first person or the last person to feel this way. But at least have the courage to admit it than try to come up with such flimsy rationalisations.  :)
« Last Edit: October 04, 2013, 02:28:14 AM by Silver_Archer »
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October 04, 2013, 02:31:32 AM
Reply #33

Mars

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Religion doesn't intend to harm people on the surface it offers comfort and growth into the spiritual, but humans always find a way to abuse ideals regardless of anything behind it, and people will follow it as people in large groups  carried by a wave of emotion are not as intelligent as an individual.

Yet apparently secularism does intend to harm people and therefore must be destroyed, right? Because you are able to cite a few contemporary examples of some heavy handed government policy which happens to limit the freedoms of religious people a tad bit, or cite some contemporary autocratic regimes which, amongst a gigantic list of targets of oppression also happen to target the religious? That's enough to judge the entire philosophy and everybody who subscribes to it and deem all of it (and them) evil, or excessive, right?

But the centuries upon centuries of violent and terrible atrocities committed by religion must all be understood on a case-by-case basis as deeply nuanced events, and all blame must be laid to individual humans who are 'abusing religious authority'?

Look, if you have an agenda and you care more about furthering it than caring about what's good for world at large, that's fine. You're hardly the first person or the last person to feel this way. But at least have the courage to admit it than try to come up with such flimsy rationalisations.  :)

No and Im quite offended you jump to the conclusion I want to eliminate secularism, I never said that, I just want balance I said I liked secularism in a perivous post and I never said it must be destroyed I don't want to force theism, and I don't want anti-thiesm, and Yes I agree the are deeply nuanced events thats my point! But you can't just blame all wars on religion, there have been a lot of atrocities committed against religous people by Athiests, Pol -Pot Chairman Mao, Communism in Russia the extermination of christian gypsies and muslim farmers by those people about 1 Billion have died. My point is its not the persecution of religion really, like whith religious wars it wasn't the fact that they had conflicting religions.

It was the fact that two large groups had conflicting ideals and some clever people managed to take advantage of the fact that not knowing something causes distrust and distrust allows you to create a scapegoat. Hence why the crusades happened hence why I mentioned pack mentality, the two different groups are to blame, but it takes one charismatic and intelligent person to abuse the ideal and create the scapegoat. It wasn't just about Christianity vs Islam, which is a very simple way of looking at it, yes that was involved in it, but its just a scapegoat for past conflicts between east and west which have been happening since before the greek times and has never changed and not always included religion.

The east and west have been at war for years, religion was just another excuse to the list of reasons for war. If you truly study history you realise how little wars are ONLY about religion, infact the only war that was truly only about religion that I have come across is the Ikko-Ikki Rebellion during sengoku jidai http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ikk%C5%8D-ikki (Cause all buddhists are peaceful of course...) A lot are of course but not all, but once again as you said its a deeply nuanced situation. Infact even then one could argue it was against the rule of the samurai and not the rise of christianity during this period, the fall of their particular sect of buddhism and the rise of other forms of buddhism.

Infact with my extensive study of history I can tell you a lot of wars are in the pipeline for personal reasons but require a medium or another reason to kick it off for example if religion doesn't kick it off something else will. Example Rome often justified invading of Scythia due to the fact of Scythia had invaded client kingdoms, Rome always wanted to invade Scythia and Parthuvavaa but the fact they invaded a client kingdom had tipped the scales of public favour. 100 Years war... England had lineage right to the French royal throne, but had been at odds with france for years, France refused to give an English king the French Monarchy and therefore England justified the 100 years war.


Its stupid that you jump to conclusions accusing me of things I don't mean, and resorting to Ad Hominem why don't you pick apart my debate instead of just diverting what I actually said and accusing me of being a cooky crusader. They are certainly not flimsy rationalizations.

Quote
Yet apparently secularism does intend to harm people and therefore must be destroyed, right? Because you are able to cite a few contemporary examples of some heavy handed government policy which happens to limit the freedoms of religious people a tad bit, or cite some contemporary autocratic regimes which, amongst a gigantic list of targets of oppression also happen to target the religious? That's enough to judge the entire philosophy and everybody who subscribes to it and deem all of it (and them) evil, or excessive, right?

No but it deserves to put it under analysis and reavaluation pehaps modification and a bit of balancing.


Why don't you check yourself before you make wild accusations based on WHAT ?

Infact if you had bothered to listen I said I agreed with you about secularism to some degree ala
Quote
I agree with what your saying Silver but do you not think the world is becoming a bit to Anti-Religous and Anti-Thiest now,

So instead of arguing with me because I am religious and applying Ad Hominem and exaggerating the opposing argument to gross proportions, and applying straw man cause you are clearly put off by religion oh that and derision, you could have carefully evaluated my opinion or maybe I didn't explain myself well enough ?
« Last Edit: October 04, 2013, 05:02:25 AM by Mars »
Experience: that most brutal of teachers. But you learn, my God do you learn. -CS Lewis
Cultivation to the mind is as necessary as food to the body. - Marcus T Cicero

October 04, 2013, 09:35:54 AM
Reply #34

Mars

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Do you not think that society is breaking down with its lack of spirituality, not religion persay but lack of personal spirituality, the majority of society is solely bothered on consumerism and their own selfish needs ? do you think this is true ? discuss ?

I actually do not think that the bulk of current societies in developed countries currently has a lack of spirituality. I define spirituality in terms of having a concept of meaning, purpose, a sense of connection, and some sort of holistic understanding of self. I don't see a great lack of this. In fact, in Western societies, I see a lot of people attempting to become spiritual. For the record, you can become a mindful consumer. For example, versus doing the typical impulse buy, you can become mindful of why you want to buy something and become mindful of your state and presence of mind as you use whatever you have bought. You can become focused on that state of mind. You can also ask yourself how what you buy will cause an impact on others where you can contemplate/meditate on this in the midst of your consumerism without having to devote oneself to some esoteric, mystical, or religious paradigm. Since becoming very mindful is a way to create a more holistic self, it is a way to facilitate spirituality. Also, I am wary of such blanket statements that do not have supporting evidence. You are presupposing that the majority of society is concerned with their own selfish needs where we are supposed to take this for granted in our responses(your question is predicated on  whether or not current societies are breaking down because of a lack of spirituality where you have not actually supported this); however, you have not provided examples or have given any sort of support. Also, appearing to attempt to use correct punctuation and proper grammar will make whatever you have to say seem more appealing than if you did not.  

I am presupposing nothing, I asked a question and asked it to be discussed, clearly you cannot read.
« Last Edit: October 04, 2013, 09:39:38 AM by Mars »
Experience: that most brutal of teachers. But you learn, my God do you learn. -CS Lewis
Cultivation to the mind is as necessary as food to the body. - Marcus T Cicero

October 04, 2013, 10:00:44 AM
Reply #35

Mars

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I am presupposing nothing, I asked a question and asked it to be discussed, clearly you cannot read.

I can read. The issue is that, apparently, you can't write correctly with your spelling errors, grammatical errors, wrong prepositions, and run-on sentences(you apparently have never heard of hyphens, conjunctions, or commas). You clearly presuppose it here:
Do you not think that society is breaking down with its lack of spirituality, not religion persay but lack of personal spirituality

Though, the fact that there is no clear punctuation makes it hard to understand what you are trying to say. You are taking it for granted that society(though you don't say which society) has a lack of spirituality and your question is predicated on this which is what it means to presuppose something.

Yes I said with a lack of spirituality because that is true, society is a lot less religious than it used to, using Britain for example 50% of the population are athiest, but I asked with in your opinion whether its breaking down because of a lack of spirituality, I didn't say IT IS breaking down. I asked you to discuss it, Im sorry you still misunderstood.
« Last Edit: October 04, 2013, 11:11:06 AM by Mars »
Experience: that most brutal of teachers. But you learn, my God do you learn. -CS Lewis
Cultivation to the mind is as necessary as food to the body. - Marcus T Cicero

October 04, 2013, 02:09:58 PM
Reply #36

Mind_Bender

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Religion is like any institution- you have the good and bad leaders and those that lovingly spread the Word, those that force the Word and those that are happy living with the Word, or whatever religion they follow.

I don't think it's lack of spirituality, because a lot of spiritual people can be a nuisance, I think it's lack of acceptance of other people's beliefs and experiences mundane or esoteric. Taking your experience as true is all but normal, but telling someone else their experience is false because of your experience is what leads to social downfall. Being American and aware of all the hideousness and waste of this culture I remember what America was founded on- individual freedom under natural order and law. What many modern anarchists are fighting for seems to be nothing more than the original 10 Amendments and what the point of this post is- why are we not living by natural order and acceptance of different views where we are instead fighting, killing and tearing everyone else down? These Amendments and our united humanity are slowly being raped from us and we are paying a heavy price when the government shuts itself down over a petty civil war which is just about what money the House (Republicans) are not giving the Senate (Democrats). It is not a lack of spirituality but a lack of kindness, acceptance and community.

I for one, believe spirituality of any kind that benefits your life and those you love is good, but so is being a non-believer who supports themselves and family in the best way they know how. Esoteric and mundane practices are both spiritual to me as long as your heart 'is in the right place'.
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October 04, 2013, 10:35:42 PM
Reply #37

The magicist

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Geez, all I said was the world needs to be unsecularized, and now I'm being accused of being like Al-Qaeda for "imposing my beliefs on other people"! Doesn't anyone see the blaring contradiction in this crap? You guys are saying I'm wrong to tell other people they're wrong!
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October 04, 2013, 11:11:57 PM
Reply #38

Constructman

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Geez, all I said was the world needs to be unsecularized, and now I'm being accused of being like Al-Qaeda for "imposing my beliefs on other people"! Doesn't anyone see the blaring contradiction in this crap? You guys are sayingng I'm wrong to tell other people they're wrong!

Magicist:

1. Explain rationale for why the world needs to be unsecularized.
2. How do you know that other people are wrong?

I'm pointing out these two things as they seemed like very strong propositions; I want to see your reasoning behind this. Also, which God do you follow?

Other people: You seem to be taking Magicost's quote to its most extreme sense. Did you guys ever think that "unsecularization" could be as tame as evangelism/preaching? Unfortunately, it isn't (which is one reason why Dawkins, among others, is hating on us). As for will of god, I can't speak for eastern religion but the Abrahamic religions generally interpret "doing the will of god" as submission to gods will and living according to the statutes set out in the Tenakh/Bible/Qu'ran. The group that I meet with has transformation and conformance of the soul until the will of man and of God are one as its ultimate goal; to act in oneness with the divine, to the point where one's mind, emotion, and will are reflections of God.

October 05, 2013, 02:18:52 AM
Reply #39

Mars

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Geez, all I said was the world needs to be unsecularized, and now I'm being accused of being like Al-Qaeda for "imposing my beliefs on other people"! Doesn't anyone see the blaring contradiction in this crap? You guys are saying I'm wrong to tell other people they're wrong!

Don't worry Magiscist I was accused of wanting secularism to be destroyed because there are a few examples where it has been heavy handed and cases where athiest governments have killed 1 billion people , when what I really said was it needed to be balanced and reavaluated. I think we have to try and explain ourselves in really simple clear english this is too sore a topic now for people not to get upset about it.
Experience: that most brutal of teachers. But you learn, my God do you learn. -CS Lewis
Cultivation to the mind is as necessary as food to the body. - Marcus T Cicero

October 05, 2013, 08:13:39 AM
Reply #40

Silver_Archer

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Yes, and I have been stating in fairly uncertain terms that I do not believe there is any need for such a 'balance'. The answer to a scenario with two opposite positions does not always lie in the middle. For example: Suppose I were to suggest that 2+2=4 and you were to suggest that no, 2+2=5000. The answer does not lie at 2502. 2+2 IS 4. If we were to have this argument, it would be utter insanity on my part to spend any meaningful amount of time discussing the possibility of 2+2 being 2502 unless I was sufficiently uncertain that 2+2=4. I am not,and nobody has said anything that would make me reconsider that. Yet.
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October 05, 2013, 08:40:38 AM
Reply #41

Constructman

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Yes, and I have been stating in fairly uncertain terms that I do not believe there is any need for such a 'balance'. The answer to a scenario with two opposite positions does not always lie in the middle. For example: Suppose I were to suggest that 2+2=4 and you were to suggest that no, 2+2=5000. The answer does not lie at 2502. 2+2 IS 4. If we were to have this argument, it would be utter insanity on my part to spend any meaningful amount of time discussing the possibility of 2+2 being 2502 unless I was sufficiently uncertain that 2+2=4. I am not,and nobody has said anything that would make me reconsider that. Yet.

Your point? All I got was a bunch of math mumbo-jumble. Please explain the analogy. Also. Math is hard science. Theology and sociology are soft sciences. Sometimes, the same logic doesn't apply (which is why so many people are hard on soft science)

October 05, 2013, 10:22:17 AM
Reply #42

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Society is breaking down cause people won't stop poking each other with sticks. If we all kept to ourselves (including governments) we might be better off.

October 05, 2013, 12:32:20 PM
Reply #43

Mars

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Society is breaking down cause people won't stop poking each other with sticks. If we all kept to ourselves (including governments) we might be better off.

This ^^

Plus, Silver_Archer, how does that make any sense, spurting out math combinations to try and validate your point like your a grade A scientist I agree with constructman in that often society is incompatible with maths you can try and explain it with maths if you want to but I imagine you would have a headache of a situation. Balance often is the answer anyway not always but when it comes to a multifaceted society we need to analyze rules and make it fair for all parties, anti-thiesm is different from secularism and anti-theism is rising and becoming prevalent. I think we should have a fair just society for EVERYONE, be it jew, christian, muslim, buddha, jain, rastafarian, pastafarian, pink unicorn follower, athiest, agnosicst, shinto, toaist, astaru, bai'hai , sikh. Everyone... I also believe as a fact it isnt just the religion that causes the wars its the politics, religion is just an agent or scapegoat to get people involved, these days instead of religion its "terrorism" or that place isn't the exact same form of democracy as us, its all the same, human nature.
Experience: that most brutal of teachers. But you learn, my God do you learn. -CS Lewis
Cultivation to the mind is as necessary as food to the body. - Marcus T Cicero

October 05, 2013, 09:31:35 PM
Reply #44

The magicist

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Quote from: Mars
Don't worry Magiscist I was accused of wanting secularism to be destroyed because there are a few examples where it has been heavy handed and cases where athiest governments have killed 1 billion people , when what I really said was it needed to be balanced and reavaluated. I think we have to try and explain ourselves in really simple clear english this is too sore a topic now for people not to get upset about it.
I don't think the problem is our lack of clear english. I mean, in what I said, there wasn't the slightest mention of violence, taking free will, or anything else. And in what you said, I see no connection whatsoever between "balancing and reevaluating" and "destroying secularism" (can we drop that term? It's terribly ambiguous). I think we just have been trained by the epidemic of vice to be rashly hostile to whatever is new to us.
Do not become comfortable with the purposeless pattern of everyday life, for the life of Piety is full of adventure.
Do not indulge in morbid or otherwise abhorrent thoughts, for a mindset of Mysticism confers a far superior pleasure.
Do not fear to sacrifice a small good to accomplish a larger one, for the ends justify the means.
Do not obsess with material things, for only the immaterial exis