Author Topic: Do you think society is breaking down with its lack of spirituality ?  (Read 18071 times)

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October 02, 2013, 12:01:16 AM
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Enchia

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Now for the main topic: I would say yes ultimately but there is a reason of course why too, if i had to guess that the world is doing, i would complain that the educational system completely avoids topic of the spirit compared the material world.

First of all. Isn't the responsibility of the parents and of the religious institutions to educate their children on these matters? I don't know how it works in other countries but in Holland children take religion classes in some religious schools and teachers employ a religious-ethical teachingmethods.

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I also think school really focus on relativism on a lot of subjects and this causes a lot of people to not want to focus on the subject of spirituality and focus on what they can see as real.

Don't confuse relativism with the room for people to disagree about conclusions. While relativism accepts all different opinions as more or less equal while disagreeing with conclusions rejects existing knowledge and propose an other explanation. Also I doubt how relativistic school really is because how relativistic is science class for example (unless someone this that "creationscience" or something similar are actually a valid alternatives).

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Do you not think that society is breaking down with its lack of spirituality, not religion persay but lack of personal spirituality, the majority of society is solely bothered on consumerism and their own selfish needs ? do you think this is true ? discuss ?

I am not sure if I agree with the idea that society is breaking down as a whole but in general I think that people has lost a sense of purpose in a more holistic sense. Meaning that people might find a purpose for one part of their lives like a career but lack it in other areas. Creating a sort of one-sidedness and therefore losing sight of the 'big picture' of their lives. Closely related to purpose is place. Where do I belong and to whom. In the past people where born in communities and they had their place there. Now western societies are very individualistic basically meaning that finding a place is a individual obligation and not one of communities to be responsible for. What I think is some people will never find a real purpose nor a real place in life and just drag themselves along. Leaving them in a sort of moral and emotional void so to speak. A cure to this might be that those people will start reflecting on what they want their purpose of life to be and to find a place to belong and act accordingly (however I am not claiming that this is some sort of miracle cure to all social ills).

October 02, 2013, 09:17:26 PM
Reply #16

The magicist

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Quote from: Enchia
I am not sure if I agree with the idea that society is breaking down as a whole but in general I think that people has lost a sense of purpose in a more holistic sense. Meaning that people might find a purpose for one part of their lives like a career but lack it in other areas. Creating a sort of one-sidedness and therefore losing sight of the 'big picture' of their lives. Closely related to purpose is place. Where do I belong and to whom. In the past people where born in communities and they had their place there. Now western societies are very individualistic basically meaning that finding a place is a individual obligation and not one of communities to be responsible for. What I think is some people will never find a real purpose nor a real place in life and just drag themselves along. Leaving them in a sort of moral and emotional void so to speak. A cure to this might be that those people will start reflecting on what they want their purpose of life to be and to find a place to belong and act accordingly (however I am not claiming that this is some sort of miracle cure to all social ills).
There really should be a thumbsup smiley. Especially for the gold highlight. You seem to recognize that people don't live with a sense of purpose. A couple years ago, this purposelessness started driving me nuts. Now, I have found a purpose: to unsecularize the world. To defeat the twin epidemics of vice and philosophical error. To do the will of God.
Do not become comfortable with the purposeless pattern of everyday life, for the life of Piety is full of adventure.
Do not indulge in morbid or otherwise abhorrent thoughts, for a mindset of Mysticism confers a far superior pleasure.
Do not fear to sacrifice a small good to accomplish a larger one, for the ends justify the means.
Do not obsess with material things, for only the immaterial exis

October 02, 2013, 11:44:49 PM
Reply #17

Enchia

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In order for people to find a purpose they do need the freedom to do so. What you are doing is shoving your purpose down somebody else his throat and it is like the opposite of what I mean.

October 02, 2013, 11:57:32 PM
Reply #18

Silver_Archer

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Now, I have found a purpose: to unsecularize the world. To defeat the twin epidemics of vice and philosophical error. To do the will of God.

So basically you're going to become Al Qaeda and save the world? Good luck with that.
<Forg> Everything is adjustable when you have a saw.

October 03, 2013, 12:06:47 AM
Reply #19

Mind_Bender

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On an all around positive note, Rudolf Steiner (or one of his associates) founded the Waldorf School. One of my old friends' younger sisters went to a local chapter. For those of you unfamiliar, Rudolf Steiner was a Rosecrucian and founding father of the Anthroposophical Society, similar to Theosophy (I think). Anyway, one of the classes they taught was the reality of faeries- their myths, attributes and how to communicate with them. They even built faerie houses. This is one example of bringing spirituality to the modern world in a non-invasive way for the followers of New Age philosophy or any body with an open heart and mind for the evolution of mankind through children by teaching them not only spiritual principles and applying myth to their life but a communiy oriented educational system. No system is perfect, but it is nice to know these types of schools exist.
"Spirit is in a state of grace forever.
Your reality is only spirit.
Therefore you are in a state of grace forever."

"As relfections of the Source, we are little gods."

"...part of me doesn't want to believe that auto-eroticism while crushing on a doodle (sigil) could manifest a check in the mail box, but hey, it did."

"Everybody laughs the same language."

October 03, 2013, 05:37:27 AM
Reply #20

Constructman

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Now, I have found a purpose: to unsecularize the world. To defeat the twin epidemics of vice and philosophical error. To do the will of God.

So basically you're going to become Al Qaeda and save the world? Good luck with that.

I don't think that's what he meant. My church talks about acting in accordance to God's will and perpetuate His move on Earth in a completely nonviolent manner. By "will of God", he may be saying something along the lines of that. Still, he could have phrased that better...

October 03, 2013, 04:37:41 PM
Reply #21

Steve

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If God wanted the world unsecularized, he'd have done it already. That's obviously not what God wants (assuming God exists, of course). So stop for a while and think: what does an omnipotent being want that it can't (or won't) just bring into being on its own merit? The answer is not any sort of paradox.

~Steve
Mastery does not occur when you've performed a feat once or twice. Instead, it comes after years of training, when you realize that you no longer notice when you're performing a feat which used to require so much effort. Even walking takes years of training for a human: why not everything else?

October 03, 2013, 04:44:51 PM
Reply #22

Mars

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If God wanted the world unsecularized, he'd have done it already. That's obviously not what God wants (assuming God exists, of course). So stop for a while and think: what does an omnipotent being want that it can't (or won't) just bring into being on its own merit? The answer is not any sort of paradox.

~Steve

Most believers in God believe he follows some of his own rules, In which he wont force anyone to believe in him, but the aim of existence to believe in him. What if massively changing the direction of the universe and unsecularizing everyone was an affront to our free will and he wants us to make decisions for our self ? Or maybe Him changing such a large quantity of the universe by entering it is like you trying to climb into a video game in your computer and prove everyone in the game your God. Its not going to work without breaking the fragile computer / or our universe hence why he might need a vessel ?
Experience: that most brutal of teachers. But you learn, my God do you learn. -CS Lewis
Cultivation to the mind is as necessary as food to the body. - Marcus T Cicero

October 03, 2013, 05:17:05 PM
Reply #23

Constructman

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If God wanted the world unsecularized, he'd have done it already. That's obviously not what God wants (assuming God exists, of course). So stop for a while and think: what does an omnipotent being want that it can't (or won't) just bring into being on its own merit? The answer is not any sort of paradox.

~Steve

Most believers in God believe he follows some of his own rules, In which he wont force anyone to believe in him, but the aim of existence to believe in him. What if massively changing the direction of the universe and unsecularizing everyone was an affront to our free will and he wants us to make decisions for our self ? Or maybe Him changing such a large quantity of the universe by entering it is like you trying to climb into a video game in your computer and prove everyone in the game your God. Its not going to work without breaking the fragile computer / or our universe hence why he might need a vessel ?

Agreed for the most part. God may have a plan that prevents him/her/it from just coming down and screwing around with everything.

For example, let's use the paradigm of the Judeo-Christian god. He may be omnipotent, but he is bound by his own virtues (such as his love and his righteousness). He has a personal code of morality that he has to follow because it is inherent to his nature; to go against those virtues would be to go against his very existence. One of these virtues is him keeping his word. If he were to just come down and do whatever he wanted, he would break quite a few promises that he made (Or the OT prophets, the Lord Jesus, and the NT apostles made for him by proxy).

As well, wouldn't forcibly unsecularizing the world invalidate the very concept of belief and choice? If God wanted people to serve it that badly, it would have just made them mindless drones. And was it not said (I would say by Jesus but that would create a whole new argument) "blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed"? Doesn't that very statement imply that the highest faith is faith and trust in the unknowable? And wouldn't just coming down and telepathically brainwashing everybody to believe x be contrary to that statement?

However, total unsecularization with no regard to man's choice is probably not at the top of God's priority list. From what I know of most of the major religions, the plan isn't "mind control everyone, make everybody serve me, ???, PROFIT". it's never as simple as that.
« Last Edit: October 03, 2013, 05:21:12 PM by Constructman »

October 03, 2013, 06:00:39 PM
Reply #24

The magicist

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What the heck, I didn't say anything about mind-controlling anyone or taking anyone's free will!
Do not become comfortable with the purposeless pattern of everyday life, for the life of Piety is full of adventure.
Do not indulge in morbid or otherwise abhorrent thoughts, for a mindset of Mysticism confers a far superior pleasure.
Do not fear to sacrifice a small good to accomplish a larger one, for the ends justify the means.
Do not obsess with material things, for only the immaterial exis

October 03, 2013, 06:45:23 PM
Reply #25

Constructman

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I was just taking Steve's quote about God not wanting to unsecularize the world and jumping to the quickest conclusion: if God was omnipotent and wanted to unsecularize the world, wouldn't the fastest to do it be to influence humanity to believe? But God didn't do that, so unsecularization (is this even a word?) us not at the top of God's priority list. That's how I idnterpeted it; Steve might have meant something different.

October 04, 2013, 01:28:28 AM
Reply #26

Silver_Archer

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What the heck, I didn't say anything about mind-controlling anyone or taking anyone's free will!

You did. You want to 'unsecularize' the world. Well, some of us LIKE a secular world. It gives us the freedom to not have to deal with the destructive nonsense Imaginary-Sky-Fairy worshippers come up with while, at the same time, letting those people live within the blissful and destructive ignorance of their delusions without fear of persecution or oppression. But someone like you would see it fit to tear down that wall and let everyone's lives get infected by that toxicity, even if they did not want it. How does that make you any different from Al Qaeda, or any other sort of fundamentalist organisation?

Yes, I understand precisely how abrasive the paragraph above sounds. It was intentional. Bear in mind that this is precisely how you sound to people who do not share your beliefs, and yet we believe it is perfectly fine and even desirable to let people like you be that abrasive on a daily basis because we believe in values like freedom and justice. You might want to keep that in mind when you tell yourself how important it is to 'desecularize' the world. You might just discover that you need the evil-evil secular world just as much as I do.
<Forg> Everything is adjustable when you have a saw.

October 04, 2013, 01:41:15 AM
Reply #27

Mars

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I agree with what your saying Silver but do you not think the world is becoming a bit to Anti-Religous and Anti-Thiest now, and people are focusing on them and being selfish, I like the secular world of 1700's to 1950's but I think now things are getting out of hand. We have gone from one extreme to another.


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As well, wouldn't forcibly unsecularizing the world invalidate the very concept of belief and choice? If God wanted people to serve it that badly, it would have just made them mindless drones. And was it not said (I would say by Jesus but that would create a whole new argument) "blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed"? Doesn't that very statement imply that the highest faith is faith and trust in the unknowable? And wouldn't just coming down and telepathically brainwashing everybody to believe x be contrary to that statement?
Experience: that most brutal of teachers. But you learn, my God do you learn. -CS Lewis
Cultivation to the mind is as necessary as food to the body. - Marcus T Cicero

October 04, 2013, 01:50:15 AM
Reply #28

Enchia

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I like the secular world of 1700's to 1950's but I think now things are getting out of hand

Seriously I don't think you like that world at all!

October 04, 2013, 01:52:24 AM
Reply #29

Mars

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I like the secular world of 1700's to 1950's but I think now things are getting out of hand

Seriously I don't think you like that world at all!

Well it brought us a lot, the reneissance and the industrial revolution, and for the most part religion played some part but not much in politics, DISREGARD the 30's I don't like that part, I didn't think about putting parameters on my like but generally I meant 1700's to 1890 really .

But for the most part America was founded on Democracy and Secularism with the little hint of Diesm but not to the extent that religion controls all policies its a good example of what good came out of that era. The ideal that is, of course for all good actions theres always a bad action during an era, but what era can we say we like thats truley peaceful ? I don't like modern times as its full of corruption and war, and war without reason. lots of people are dying in poor nations who need help, over the Israel-Palestinian debate, there was Tunisia, and now Zimbabwe and Iran my heart goes out to those people.
« Last Edit: October 04, 2013, 01:56:12 AM by Mars »
Experience: that most brutal of teachers. But you learn, my God do you learn. -CS Lewis
Cultivation to the mind is as necessary as food to the body. - Marcus T Cicero