Author Topic: Do you think society is breaking down with its lack of spirituality ?  (Read 18051 times)

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November 09, 2013, 01:05:18 AM
Reply #120

Steve

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Of course I do. If I recall correctly, you never showed that denial of reality is the same thing as non-persistance of reality.

But if you honestly think my "argument" is bunk, try it first. It's not just a purely theoretical argument. It's an exercise to give proof!

~Steve
« Last Edit: November 09, 2013, 01:09:51 AM by Steve »
Mastery does not occur when you've performed a feat once or twice. Instead, it comes after years of training, when you realize that you no longer notice when you're performing a feat which used to require so much effort. Even walking takes years of training for a human: why not everything else?

November 10, 2013, 11:47:07 PM
Reply #121

The magicist

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Very well, I shall repeat the answer.
The reason I would have an experience of hitting a wall is because closing my eyes does not destroy the algorithm. First, because it doesn't stop me from perceiving the world. Second, because it only closes my eyes. If all people lost their sight then properties such as colour would cease to have any meaning. And third, I do not claim that cutting off one's perception destroys the universe. The universe isn't a perception of itself, that would be recursive. It's a network of causal triggers linking actions of the wills of living humans to the perceptions of living humans.
Do not become comfortable with the purposeless pattern of everyday life, for the life of Piety is full of adventure.
Do not indulge in morbid or otherwise abhorrent thoughts, for a mindset of Mysticism confers a far superior pleasure.
Do not fear to sacrifice a small good to accomplish a larger one, for the ends justify the means.
Do not obsess with material things, for only the immaterial exis

November 11, 2013, 12:49:26 AM
Reply #122

EllyEve

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Very well, I shall repeat the answer.
The reason I would have an experience of hitting a wall is because closing my eyes does not destroy the algorithm. First, because it doesn't stop me from perceiving the world. Second, because it only closes my eyes. If all people lost their sight then properties such as colour would cease to have any meaning. And third, I do not claim that cutting off one's perception destroys the universe. The universe isn't a perception of itself, that would be recursive. It's a network of causal triggers linking actions of the wills of living humans to the perceptions of living humans.

Then what's the point of the tree-falling-unheard koan?

We establish that a falling tree (or a falling pencil) exist within this hypothetical, and that sound waves exist within the world of this hypothetical, therefore, of course, it does make a sound because of these parts and rules that we have established.

If all people lost their sight, then color would be meaningless in society. But various light waves would still exist. Perhaps three generations down it would become a mystical abstract thing that people can't observe and if asked to then they attune to some peculiar state of mind that everyone calls spiritual, but...it's just existence.

November 11, 2013, 07:34:29 PM
Reply #123

The magicist

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Yes, the light waves would still exist, by virtue of the other physical events they could cause, such as photosynthesis. But "color" would not exist.
Do not become comfortable with the purposeless pattern of everyday life, for the life of Piety is full of adventure.
Do not indulge in morbid or otherwise abhorrent thoughts, for a mindset of Mysticism confers a far superior pleasure.
Do not fear to sacrifice a small good to accomplish a larger one, for the ends justify the means.
Do not obsess with material things, for only the immaterial exis

November 11, 2013, 08:05:56 PM
Reply #124

EllyEve

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Yes, the light waves would still exist, by virtue of the other physical events they could cause, such as photosynthesis. But "color" would not exist.

Color as a thing of social significance, maybe not. But color as a variance of light waves would continue to exist.

November 11, 2013, 10:02:47 PM
Reply #125

Steve

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Quote from: the_magicist
because closing my eyes does not destroy the algorithm.
You answered the entire point yourself, with this ^.

"First, because it doesn't stop me from perceiving the world."
It stops your eyes from perceiving the wall. Your other senses, touch, taste, smell, and hearing, don't perceive the wall. So it does stop you from perceiving the portion of the world that we're talking about.

"Second, because it only closes my eyes. If all people lost their sight then properties such as colour would cease to have any meaning."
We're not talking about meaning. We're talking about mechanics, which you already agreed continue despite the lack of human perception of it.

"And third, I do not claim that cutting off one's perception destroys the universe."
So why are you jumping in to defend the argument that it sort of does? "Tree falling in a forest, does it make a sound?" question is about the question of "does the universe still exist if there is no human to perceive it?" It's born of a great philosophical question, but these days is used more in ignorant arrogance really.

"The universe isn't a perception of itself, that would be recursive. It's a network of causal triggers linking actions of the wills of living humans to the perceptions of living humans."
Or, it's a thing that exists regardless of perception and will of itself or of any/all living creatures (not just humans).


Thanks for answering the other things he brought up, EllyEve, so that I don't have to ^_^

~Steve
« Last Edit: November 11, 2013, 10:10:04 PM by Steve »
Mastery does not occur when you've performed a feat once or twice. Instead, it comes after years of training, when you realize that you no longer notice when you're performing a feat which used to require so much effort. Even walking takes years of training for a human: why not everything else?

November 12, 2013, 09:30:13 AM
Reply #126

The magicist

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Quote from: Steve
We're not talking about meaning. We're talking about mechanics, which you already agreed continue despite the lack of human perception of it.
You know what I meant.
Quote from: Steve
So why are you jumping in to defend the argument that it sort of does? "Tree falling in a forest, does it make a sound?" question is about the question of "does the universe still exist if there is no human to perceive it?" It's born of a great philosophical question, but these days is used more in ignorant arrogance really.
Cutting off everyone's perception would destroy the universe. Although it wouldn't really be destroying anything since the universe doesn't really exist in the first place.

The gist of all your arguments seems to be so far that whatever we perceive must be real. Why is this? Why can't a perceptual experience be the result of a causal trigger and not a substantive being? (I mean really, even if the universe is real, it seems like the only way we could perceive it would be if a causal trigger existed linking a neural event to a mental one.)
Do not become comfortable with the purposeless pattern of everyday life, for the life of Piety is full of adventure.
Do not indulge in morbid or otherwise abhorrent thoughts, for a mindset of Mysticism confers a far superior pleasure.
Do not fear to sacrifice a small good to accomplish a larger one, for the ends justify the means.
Do not obsess with material things, for only the immaterial exis

November 12, 2013, 09:52:49 AM
Reply #127

Enchia

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Cutting off everyone's perception would destroy the universe. Although it wouldn't really be destroying anything since the universe doesn't really exist in the first place.

You do know that there was life before there where humans and that there was a universe before there was life on this planet. Science has shown this over and over again.
Even if you reject science then even the bible says you are wrong.

Quote
Genesis 1
King James Version (KJV)
1 In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.

2 And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.

3 And God said, Let there be light: and there was light.

4 And God saw the light, that it was good: and God divided the light from the darkness.

5 And God called the light Day, and the darkness he called Night. And the evening and the morning were the first day.

6 And God said, Let there be a firmament in the midst of the waters, and let it divide the waters from the waters.

7 And God made the firmament, and divided the waters which were under the firmament from the waters which were above the firmament: and it was so.

8 And God called the firmament Heaven. And the evening and the morning were the second day.

9 And God said, Let the waters under the heaven be gathered together unto one place, and let the dry land appear: and it was so.

10 And God called the dry land Earth; and the gathering together of the waters called he Seas: and God saw that it was good.

11 And God said, Let the earth bring forth grass, the herb yielding seed, and the fruit tree yielding fruit after his kind, whose seed is in itself, upon the earth: and it was so.

12 And the earth brought forth grass, and herb yielding seed after his kind, and the tree yielding fruit, whose seed was in itself, after his kind: and God saw that it was good.

13 And the evening and the morning were the third day.

14 And God said, Let there be lights in the firmament of the heaven to divide the day from the night; and let them be for signs, and for seasons, and for days, and years:

15 And let them be for lights in the firmament of the heaven to give light upon the earth: and it was so.

16 And God made two great lights; the greater light to rule the day, and the lesser light to rule the night: he made the stars also.

17 And God set them in the firmament of the heaven to give light upon the earth,

18 And to rule over the day and over the night, and to divide the light from the darkness: and God saw that it was good.

19 And the evening and the morning were the fourth day.

20 And God said, Let the waters bring forth abundantly the moving creature that hath life, and fowl that may fly above the earth in the open firmament of heaven.


November 12, 2013, 04:19:13 PM
Reply #128

The magicist

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Enchia, I do not believe in the bible. Just because I defend the label "religious" doesn't mean I follow the most popular religion.
And Rayn, I did not derail this thread. You guys did. And the rest of your post is a bunch of strawmen and circularity. So goodbye, I've had it with this thread too.
Do not become comfortable with the purposeless pattern of everyday life, for the life of Piety is full of adventure.
Do not indulge in morbid or otherwise abhorrent thoughts, for a mindset of Mysticism confers a far superior pleasure.
Do not fear to sacrifice a small good to accomplish a larger one, for the ends justify the means.
Do not obsess with material things, for only the immaterial exis

November 12, 2013, 04:57:10 PM
Reply #129

Steve

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Quote from: The_magicist
You know what I meant.
I know what you meant, but apparently you didn't take the time to get to know what *we* meant in the topic that we were talking about before you came in. So I don't care what you meant if you're using comments errantly.

Quote
Cutting off everyone's perception would destroy the universe. Although it wouldn't really be destroying anything since the universe doesn't really exist in the first place.
What utter arrogance and naivete.

Quote
The gist of all your arguments seems to be so far that whatever we perceive must be real.
Close. It's that "what we perceive IS (barring delusions) real, because it doesn't go away, disappear, or be destroyed just because we stop perceiving it for a short while."

Quote
Why is this? Why can't a perceptual experience be the result of a causal trigger and not a substantive being? (I mean really, even if the universe is real, it seems like the only way we could perceive it would be if a causal trigger existed linking a neural event to a mental one.)
Maybe it "could" be, in theory, but it's not in reality. Hence the exercise of running facefirst into a wall that you don't perceive beforehand, which disproves your idea (you obviously need to attempt the exercise to understand it properly).

~Steve


And then requoting this so that it's not lost between posts ^_^
And Rayn, I did not derail this thread. You guys did. And the rest of your post is a bunch of strawmen and circularity. So goodbye, I've had it with this thread too.

No, technically, you did after I posted evidence that shows that society is not breaking down, you decided to strawman the argument by speaking about abortion and violence(without ever explaining how one is correlated with the other mind you) and then proceeded to derail the thread. Since irrationality is one of kobok's pet peeves, he decided to indulge you hoping you would be reasonable.
Mastery does not occur when you've performed a feat once or twice. Instead, it comes after years of training, when you realize that you no longer notice when you're performing a feat which used to require so much effort. Even walking takes years of training for a human: why not everything else?