Author Topic: Why Did God Create Us?  (Read 17811 times)

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September 10, 2013, 11:53:16 AM
Reply #30

The magicist

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As for truth, well that's a subjective thing especially in metaphysics.
You seem to be saying "it's objectively true that there is no objective truth". That's just your opinion and entails its own falsity.

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I honestly don't believe in one almighty creator- have we forgotten that little thing called evolution?
I don't see how evolution could account for the existence of the soul.
Do not become comfortable with the purposeless pattern of everyday life, for the life of Piety is full of adventure.
Do not indulge in morbid or otherwise abhorrent thoughts, for a mindset of Mysticism confers a far superior pleasure.
Do not fear to sacrifice a small good to accomplish a larger one, for the ends justify the means.
Do not obsess with material things, for only the immaterial exis

September 10, 2013, 12:23:08 PM
Reply #31

Enchia

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I don't see how evolution could account for the existence of the soul.

Just because you can't see how it happens doesn't mean it can't happen and even if evolution can't account for the existence of the soul that still doesn't mean a god can. It could very well be something else.


September 10, 2013, 04:20:38 PM
Reply #32

Hellblazer

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I don't believe in God, at least not a personal God of any kind. If there is a God, it left the phone off the hook cause no one's answering. Also if there is some all powerful entity why couldn't it install it's own upgrading software (evolution) to keep it's creation going? Why can't creationism and evolution actually work together. If god did make us why not make us able to change as our world changes?

How about I just put it this way, truth is a matter of opinion.

September 10, 2013, 05:47:50 PM
Reply #33

Steve

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Shadowx: Thanks for posting the sources. I'm actually glad that you did have sources, even if I disagree somewhat with your interpretation of them. At least it tells me why you said what you did.

On the other hand: Mind Bender! So God(s) doesn't/don't exist because evolution does? Evolution is a mechanism within reality, kind of like eating and sleeping but in a different way. There's nothing saying that God(s) can't have created life AND set evolution as a mechanism of life :P (which, of course, falls to the logical fallacy of "the argument is that God can have created everything just the way it seems to be created, so because anything can be used to claim God did it, nothing really proves God did it") However, I very much agree with this "Merit seeking is a sure ticket to self-delusion and egomania."

~Steve
« Last Edit: September 10, 2013, 05:53:45 PM by Steve »
Mastery does not occur when you've performed a feat once or twice. Instead, it comes after years of training, when you realize that you no longer notice when you're performing a feat which used to require so much effort. Even walking takes years of training for a human: why not everything else?

September 10, 2013, 06:25:47 PM
Reply #34

Mind_Bender

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I don't believe in an almighty and everlasting creator, but understand gods and spirits  as human projections of very real power given a familiar face and name. They are nothing but collections of dynamic energy and emotion. Evolution and gods work together, I think, but humans have evolved so much we don't need gods like we used to, or think of them in a more archetypal way rather than literal, except in dire situations (I seem to go back and forth on the reality and elements of spiritual entities). With all of this technology and much easier access to so much different information we could be considered gods in our own right, at least from the perspective of certain primitive cultures.

Basically, if a singular Creator manifested this everything we call life and perception, I would imagine they would use evolution with their own creative power, thus a unity of potentials. It just seems more natural that way.
"Spirit is in a state of grace forever.
Your reality is only spirit.
Therefore you are in a state of grace forever."

"As relfections of the Source, we are little gods."

"...part of me doesn't want to believe that auto-eroticism while crushing on a doodle (sigil) could manifest a check in the mail box, but hey, it did."

"Everybody laughs the same language."

September 10, 2013, 11:14:18 PM
Reply #35

The magicist

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Quote from: BubbaFett
How about I just put it this way, truth is a matter of opinion.
That's just your opinion.
Quote from: Enchia
Just because you can't see how it happens doesn't mean it can't happen.
True, but it prevents me from rationally believing that it can happen.
Quote from: Enchia
even if evolution can't account for the existence of the soul that still doesn't mean a god can. It could very well be something else.
Why can't God account for it? God is a metaphysical being, generally understood to be omnipotent, in which case why can't he create a soul?
Quote from: BubbaFett
If you feel purposeless, the give your life meaning.
The way to give true meaning to one's life is to fight for the cause of God. If anyone feels purposeless, as I once did, I think this is probably a mark of the virtue of Piety (capitalized for respect). Piety is essentially seeking a purposeful life. This is the virtue that started my journey to become a servant of God. A real one. Piety is an incredibly rare virtue is the modern world, so despite their posts I am hesitant to believe that somnium and rhetorices have it. On the off chance that they or anyone else here has it, know that God wants you in his army.
Do not become comfortable with the purposeless pattern of everyday life, for the life of Piety is full of adventure.
Do not indulge in morbid or otherwise abhorrent thoughts, for a mindset of Mysticism confers a far superior pleasure.
Do not fear to sacrifice a small good to accomplish a larger one, for the ends justify the means.
Do not obsess with material things, for only the immaterial exis

September 10, 2013, 11:31:04 PM
Reply #36

Enchia

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Why can't God account for it? God is a metaphysical being, generally understood to be omnipotent, in which case why can't he create a soul?

Well, if your god is deistic in nature then it could create the universe and leave it at its own accord and let other processes create souls for example evolution or as a byproduct of consciousnesses or something else.

September 11, 2013, 12:31:21 AM
Reply #37

Mind_Bender

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The way to give true meaning to one's life is to fight for the cause of God. If anyone feels purposeless, as I once did, I think this is probably a mark of the virtue of Piety (capitalized for respect). Piety is essentially seeking a purposeful life. This is the virtue that started my journey to become a servant of God. A real one. Piety is an incredibly rare virtue is the modern world, so despite their posts I am hesitant to believe that somnium and rhetorices have it. On the off chance that they or anyone else here has it, know that God wants you in his army.

What if someone does not believe in god and does not practice piety, does that mean a lack  of purpose and virtue to you, or is this just how you define your path (embracing Piety and working for God)?

On piety, I love my parents with all of my heart and soul, but I am not exactly devoted to them- I make my own choices, sometimes over their wishes and expectations. I don't think devotion of any kind is necessary to live a virtuous and purpose filled life, at least not devotion to another human, group or a divine being, especially when they expect me, well, not to be me (yes, I have first hand experience and it bothers me because I have seen and felt the harm it causes. Those that want to be individuals are verbally beaten to submission and those that don't mind being another aspect of the greater good [of the establishment] end up beating others down and think they are doing right... like I seem to do sometimes [sorry :rolleyes:]).

In my honest opinion, I think too much devotion is a bad thing, so is too little. Being devoted to god, family and greater cause, where does your individuality stand, and not being devoted to anything, what the hell is your purpose? (Rhetorical, unless someone really wants to answer).
"Spirit is in a state of grace forever.
Your reality is only spirit.
Therefore you are in a state of grace forever."

"As relfections of the Source, we are little gods."

"...part of me doesn't want to believe that auto-eroticism while crushing on a doodle (sigil) could manifest a check in the mail box, but hey, it did."

"Everybody laughs the same language."

September 11, 2013, 11:22:35 AM
Reply #38

Shadowx089

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If you feel purposeless, the give your life meaning. Whatever that means to you. Not everyone has a desire to know why we are here. My desire is to leave this ball of dirt a little better after I die. Too many fools wanting to destroy this planet. As for truth, well that's a subjective thing especially in metaphysics.

Truth is not subjective, humans are subjective, know the difference. Two people can be told a truth or a lie and both may be subjective to it but the truth or lie still is what it it is.

I honestly don't believe in one almighty creator- have we forgotten that little thing called evolution? I think evolution after a melding of star dust created us and our only purpose is to give ourselves a purpose. There is no divine virtue we need to reach towards, no human instincts we are supposed to suppress and deny as normal, and no heavenly loft after merit has been gathered.

Lets not say "believe". To say you believe indicates your unsure - that your reasoning is flawed so you just make it into something that sounds correct but isn't. Because the reasoning behind it has no basis. (Note: Disregard this if you are indeed indicating you are unsure by saying believe and giving a theory based on other factors from science.)

Also evolution has no relation to a "All Mighty Being", for such a being can become anything it chooses to be without a predetermined evolutionary basis or any creature that can shape shift has no need for evolution - that process is none existent to them.

If there is a Creator I think this is the Creator's purpose for us- forget the creator so we can be our own individual expressions with freedom from constraint of outdated spirituality, laws, morals and ethics.

Your version of a Creator would indicate it has no awareness for what it creates and just creates randomly life.  Basically, you described a machine. Then you would be correct and there is no purpose besides the ones we want.

On another note, there is no way to reason God out of existence. You will always hit a paradox unless your not capable of sound reasoning then at that point you will get lost or stop short and reach a false conclusion. Of course people have problems with accepting the world they live in to begin with and tend to begin their reasoning based on a false belief which results in a false conclusion.

Truth in reasoning can only result in 1 conclusion, "God May Exist", you either ignore that fact and go on with life saying whatever one pleases, or you seek God in your own way hoping God will reveal to you a definite truth that you determined yourself.

No Indoctrination is required to seek God...you seek God to answer the final conclusion and only God can answer it. But for those who don't seek may never find God unless God directly interferes which happens.

« Last Edit: September 11, 2013, 11:28:55 AM by Shadowx089 »
Comfort of the Lord, comforted by God.
If nothing existed but the Source and the Source - Created everything - Is the Creation from the Source? - If the Creation can behold intelligence - Then does the Source also have intelligence? - After all - The Source was far more than its Creation.

September 11, 2013, 12:02:28 PM
Reply #39

Enchia

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Truth in reasoning can only result in 1 conclusion, "God May Exist", you either ignore that fact and go on with life saying whatever one pleases, or you seek God in your own way hoping God will reveal to you a definite truth that you determined yourself.

No Indoctrination is required to seek God...you seek God to answer the final conclusion and only God can answer it. But for those who don't seek may never find God unless God directly interferes which happens.

If one is intellectually honest then yes a god may exist. Some people say that their god controls all the natural forces. Gravity works the way it does because some god designed it that way same counts for evolution and other such natural forces and processes. Even though I can understand this kind of reasoning I always wonder if the term 'god' is not a bit to loaded term and couldn't a term like 'universe' or something similar be more appropriate, which is actually more a semantic game then anything else. However most of the time when people talk about a god they apply other characteristics to it as well, like some sort of moral character or god being a performer of miracles. This is where I get sceptical because these types of characteristics are often assumed but never really substantiated.
« Last Edit: September 11, 2013, 12:05:46 PM by Enchia »

September 11, 2013, 12:55:48 PM
Reply #40

Mars

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I believe God created us cause he likes a good story better than anything. You think about it have you ever been to a society or culture and seen some of their keepsakes, things seemingly pointless but there is a story and magic behind it. I think that's what its like for God to watch us. We create things that our seemingly pointless/useless to him, but there's a whole load of magic and meaning to us, as I creator I believe that would fascinate him and have a magic in itself. Even more so imagine if you created life in a simulation, and they realized signs of your existence and decided to look for you. Surely he would be proud would he not ? I hope so I mean I'ts a dangerous thing to judge God by our standards a lot of problems have come about of that but its nice to postulate.
Experience: that most brutal of teachers. But you learn, my God do you learn. -CS Lewis
Cultivation to the mind is as necessary as food to the body. - Marcus T Cicero

September 11, 2013, 01:00:43 PM
Reply #41

Enchia

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I hope so I mean I'ts a dangerous thing to judge God by our standards a lot of problems have come about of that but its nice to postulate.

That is an interesting thought. Could you give a few examples of those problems.

September 11, 2013, 01:06:46 PM
Reply #42

Mind_Bender

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Truth is not subjective, humans are subjective, know the difference. Two people can be told a truth or a lie and both may be subjective to it but the truth or lie still is what it it is.

Certain truths are very subjective. The whole argument over the objectivity of a truth versus the subjectivity makes it a subjective experience because the truth itself does not exist only our perception of it, or it is at least a balanced paradox between absolute and subjective truth. If I learned anything from metaphysical training it's that paradox is the word of the day. From everything I have experienced nothing is hard fast, set in stone, but a malleable aspect of an ever changing reality, but I accept I may be wrong, for that is a subjective truth because not everyone believes that nor experiences it, so how can that be an absolute truth? If people do not agree, that is subjective. If people simply have different experiences from the same experience, that is not purely subjective but another paradox of truth and subjectivity. There can be no absolute truth until every single human being agrees and has experience based upon that one truth.

Lets not say "believe". To say you believe indicates your unsure - that your reasoning is flawed so you just make it into something that sounds correct but isn't. Because the reasoning behind it has no basis. (Note: Disregard this if you are indeed indicating you are unsure by saying believe and giving a theory based on other factors from science.)

Belief is not an uncertainty, it is a conviction. I don't believe in corporeal dragons, I have never experienced one. I do believe in mysterious aspects of consciousness given human qualities many of us called gods because I have experienced them. I have never experienced an almighty creator, nor do I think it's possible and if it was it would come wrapped with a sudden annihilation of the self, so I do not believe in it. Faith and belief are the same to me- they are aspects of trust and understanding after experience.

Also evolution has no relation to a "All Mighty Being", for such a being can become anything it chooses to be without a predetermined evolutionary basis or any creature that can shape shift has no need for evolution - that process is none existent to them.

Since I do not believe in an almighty creative vortex, force, being, whatever, evolution has to play a part. Let's say there is one almighty creature of creation, evolution would seem to be a natural progression for this self-created being (another paradox). Have you ever experienced this All Mighty Being creating and destroying matter with less than a thought? I haven't, so this being is not beyond evolution but a process of it. Maybe what many of us are perceiving as this all mighty being is just a projection of us in the far future, and not some ancient being? I used to be very theistic and believed in the Creator, but as time went on I found most of what I was doing metaphysically was nothing but natural human perception and organic brain processes, with a few mysteries here and there, but these can be summed up by the use of energy and not a divine interaction. My argument of this almighty creator is if it is so powerful, why not make its presence known more casually? I know many people that have called upon this creator with love and devotion with no connection... this does not sound like an all powerful being to me, or it is a process of evolution where that power resides within us and not outside at this moment in time.

This is also where I argue truth is subjective, because my experiences differ from yours, not just my opinion.

Your version of a Creator would indicate it has no awareness for what it creates and just creates randomly life.  Basically, you described a machine. Then you would be correct and there is no purpose besides the ones we want.

Basically, at least that's my current perception- a 'machine' without consciousness, much like the ocean. It is filled with life but it just merely exists in its aspect of itself.

On another note, there is no way to reason God out of existence. You will always hit a paradox unless your not capable of sound reasoning then at that point you will get lost or stop short and reach a false conclusion. Of course people have problems with accepting the world they live in to begin with and tend to begin their reasoning based on a false belief which results in a false conclusion.

You cannot say people cannot reason God out of existence. What are atheists then? Dumb? Wrong? They have yet another truth different than yours. To you the disbelief in God is a fallacy and there seems to be no other way around it, and is something I am honestly sick of seeing and hearing. This is another reason I do not believe in God- his followers seem to be immature, close minded individuals who cannot accept there is more than one truth, that there may be no God, that their beliefs may not be real so the rest of us are somehow wrong and stupid? That's how your words in this quote come off, that you are a prideful God lover with no heart for those that do not believe in this God and any compassion is just pity and there is no truth until God is that truth. Hogwash. It is this attitude that deserves damnation, not those that seek their own truth, unless they bring harm upon others as many a God-lovers I have come across do (there are many very lovely God Worshippers out there, so please take no offense). I may be wrong about you, but your words make you sound a bit pompous and inconsiderate to those of us that do not hold your god in the same regard, or at all.

Truth in reasoning can only result in 1 conclusion, "God May Exist", you either ignore that fact and go on with life saying whatever one pleases, or you seek God in your own way hoping God will reveal to you a definite truth that you determined yourself.

No Indoctrination is required to seek God...you seek God to answer the final conclusion and only God can answer it. But for those who don't seek may never find God unless God directly interferes which happens.

I personally believe there may be a creator god, but the more I contemplate, meditate and talk to others, the further away this belief goes- I am no longer convinced of its presence for I have not felt it in a way that cannot be explained by psychology and biological processes. I cannot believe in a god that expects everyone to believe in this being the way you speak of him/it. Your truth is your truth and many others hold it in the same or higher regard than you, and I accept that, but you come off as rather un-accepting of others non-belief in your deity. An almighty creator god would not care whether or not others worship or believe in it, it has no reason to care nor should it, it is almighty and gave us this planet and this universe to play in- loving and taking care of this planet and its myriad creatures would seem the proper course of action to take in worshipping and loving this creator. Your perceptions are just that, perceptions and this is just my perception, so in essence, we are both right and both wrong depending on who is reading this.

I do not know if there is or isn't a creator, but I do know that, so far, this power is abstract and cares not what we do nor how we do it. It is only conscious because we give it that consciousness, and if it was conscious of itself, thoughts and actions, that consciousness would be so far beyond ours it would still be abstract to us, thus spirits, gods, and even humans, are nothing but energetic constructs. I like to use the Qabalistic theory for this- there was Kether that was God itself after the initial chaos (the Ain regions) but as the tree rooted God became more and more dense until Malkuth is reached, Kether becomes Malkuth, thus "God is Man and Man God," not some etheric force to be worshipped and sought outside of the self, at least in my experience and opinion.
"Spirit is in a state of grace forever.
Your reality is only spirit.
Therefore you are in a state of grace forever."

"As relfections of the Source, we are little gods."

"...part of me doesn't want to believe that auto-eroticism while crushing on a doodle (sigil) could manifest a check in the mail box, but hey, it did."

"Everybody laughs the same language."

September 11, 2013, 01:20:09 PM
Reply #43

Mars

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I hope so I mean I'ts a dangerous thing to judge God by our standards a lot of problems have come about of that but its nice to postulate.

That is an interesting thought. Could you give a few examples of those problems.


Sure I don't know that you would agree with them but this is my opinion anyway, I hope you find it interesting.

When we often claim to know God, or judge him by our standards I believe it can cause religious wars and conflict as we squabble over terminology or the way he/she/it/thing looks. I think God cares about us as individuals and as a community but not the differences in our communities or by what name we call him. I think we often go off on rants on how can god be so cruel if people die, it can't be loving ? How do we know his standards of love ? I don't proclaim to be in the know of this.

People argue that, if God allows children to die then he is either evil or doesn't exist. Why does this make him evil ? Surely God would give them another chance of reincarnation or just take them strait to heaven for being innocent. Maybe the choices of others around them would have been too harsh to live through. Imagine in rough places like Africa where there is war, if we couldn't die. If we couldn't die imagine the eternal torture the weaker would go through ? I mean I don't put it as a way to condone this way of thinking or condone that I think its alright that these people are dying, I want to try and help them. But I can't know the complete logic behind Gods thinking. I only have the standards I have, but I think we try and make God too much like man sometimes.

Also we have argued for centuries over which way Gods would look like. Even if God chose to find a way to physically incarnate himself, surely if he was all powerful he could do it in many ways and as many forms as he likes. Now surely some dieties must have been fake ones. But how can we know for certain that God didn't actually choose a physical vessel for a short period of time. What if God was Jesus and Buddha and Zeus and Apollo all at different times ? I do not know but If i judged his appearance on my personal standards that would cause restrictive problems.
Experience: that most brutal of teachers. But you learn, my God do you learn. -CS Lewis
Cultivation to the mind is as necessary as food to the body. - Marcus T Cicero

September 11, 2013, 01:39:26 PM
Reply #44

Enchia

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When we often claim to know God, or judge him by our standards I believe it can cause religious wars and conflict as we squabble over terminology or the way he/she/it/thing looks. I think God cares about us as individuals and as a community but not the differences in our communities or by what name we call him. I think we often go off on rants on how can god be so cruel if people die, it can't be loving ? How do we know his standards of love ? I don't proclaim to be in the know of this.

People argue that, if God allows children to die then he is either evil or doesn't exist. Why does this make him evil ? Surely God would give them another chance of reincarnation or just take them strait to heaven for being innocent. Maybe the choices of others around them would have been too harsh to live through. Imagine in rough places like Africa where there is war, if we couldn't die. If we couldn't die imagine the eternal torture the weaker would go through ? I mean I don't put it as a way to condone this way of thinking or condone that I think its alright that these people are dying, I want to try and help them. But I can't know the complete logic behind Gods thinking. I only have the standards I have, but I think we try and make God too much like man sometimes.

I agree. If a god exists as a being outside of time and space then it is not very likely that it is conditioned by the sociocultural and historical contexts like humans are. It's morality would not be based on the same things as those of humans. However if gods morality is so far beyond our understanding and our day to day experience then why is god and what it wants relevant in the first place. Why bother if you don't be able to understand it.