Author Topic: Is this ethical?  (Read 3030 times)

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May 22, 2012, 06:51:33 PM
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Constructman

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I've got two things I want to talk about. The first is as follows: my classroom is a hellhole when it comes to noise and some of the students are quite troublesome. I've been experimenting with a "quiet tank" construct in addition to plain old telepathic sending but neither are working. I am considering telepathically hacking them and, uh, using a more powerful form of TPS to influence them because right now, they don't seem to be getting ANY of my signals.

Second: Two of my classmates have recently started a relationship (not officially; they aren't "dating" but technically they are BF/GF). I have been working in the background to assist this relationship; repeat, I am not making energetic love potions, I am making bond strengtheners (one of them being the computer sigil). Other things I have done are TPS, sending constructs, and, well, ATTEMPTING to influence the environment (I think this would be a faulty version of future selection). However, they don't know about this, and if I tried explaining this to them, they probably either dismiss me as a weirdo, stone me to death, or just simply not understand. So, I haven't told them.

So my question is, are these methods ethical?


May 22, 2012, 07:19:21 PM
Reply #1

Impervious

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I'll throw in the old staple method of asking yourself: "Would it be ethical for me to do these things WITHOUT psi?" Would it be ethical for you to keep your friends together through more physical means?

Personally, I can't see much of a problem with you trying to keep your classroom quiet, because I think that's how a classroom should be. I can see how it would be a mora grey area because you're possibly muddling about with peoples' free will, but you are essentially returning a classroom to its natural order and facilitating learning for you and your classmates. As I said, I can't see too much of a problem here, but it's always sort of a personal thing. Rigorous appliance of the above question does wonders, in my opinion.

Your second example is something I won't comment as much on, as I am uncertain of my own opinions on the matter and it seems more personal than the first. I would advise asking yourself the above question, as well as other types of questions. A few examples of what I may ask myself: Is this construct more of a tool that helps smooth over rocky situations, or does it force them to be together? Is this relationship ultimately good for both parties? Is this sort of construct even necessary in this instance?
These kinds of questions are usually what I use in my ethical dilemmas.

Hope I helped, and good luck!
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May 22, 2012, 08:27:52 PM
Reply #2

Constructman

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Your second example is something I won't comment as much on, as I am uncertain of my own opinions on the matter and it seems more personal than the first. I would advise asking yourself the above question, as well as other types of questions. A few examples of what I may ask myself: Is this construct more of a tool that helps smooth over rocky situations, or does it force them to be together? Is this relationship ultimately good for both parties? Is this sort of construct even necessary in this instance?

The first one. It's not forcing them, just helping them. As for your second question, perhaps the girl will have a positive influence on the boy (the boy is one of the troublemakers I talked about in the first scenario). And hey, is it bad to take extra precautions? I just thought that it would be wise to be looking out for them just in case something happens.

May 22, 2012, 08:42:12 PM
Reply #3

Impervious

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I think it's awesome that you are trying to keep your friends happy. I was just trying to give examples of what I would do. I personally don't like to interfere with people unless they ask for my help. (Unless it is something I perceive as them generally needing, or in an emergency). As such, I probably wouldn't do something like this. So long as you don't impinge on their free wills (I don't think you are) then I don't see why it would be a problem.
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May 23, 2012, 03:27:23 AM
Reply #4

ezpero

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If I were you, I would actually think more of whether it's beneficial for me to do all that than if it was ethical,
because somehow, ethics are rather relative, some people think its okay to mess with others relationship,
some think it should be left alone

If the case is, whether its beneficial for you,
the first one seems beneficial, a more controlled and quiet classroom is a better place to study after all
on the second one, what would helping them make you feel?

Would it make you feel better if you help them than if you didn't?
If so, then just help them

Nevermind what the future will bring for them, it's their life, their responsibilities, their experiences as well,
just do what you believe will help them and make you feel better as well

A bit sidetracked maybe, doesn't really answer your ethical or non-ethical question as well,
but I guess its food for the thought

May 23, 2012, 04:32:56 PM
Reply #5

Constructman

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First scenario: Nothing's working; the quiet tank isn't working, the hacking probes aren't working, the sigils aren't working, TPS isn't working, and direct magic isn't working. I'm taking it a step further and actually casting a sigil for each of the trouble makers in a ttempt to alter their personalities (the frame for the sigils are <insert name here> behaviour will improve). I know this may seem a bit intrusive, but this is TOO MUCH!!!! I CAN'T HANDLE ALL THE NOISE!!!!  :teethy: :mad:

May 23, 2012, 06:28:20 PM
Reply #6

ezpero

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I know this may seem a bit intrusive, but this is TOO MUCH!!!! I CAN'T HANDLE ALL THE NOISE!!!!  :teethy: :mad:

Just a thought,

Personally, I honestly think the first scenario you present before are potentially beneficial,
and if seen from my range of what is ethic and what is not (which is rather flexible), is perfectly ethical for me

However, your latest approach to this first scenario doesn't seem to be doing the same way as the previous one
Or maybe I have missed to truly understand what you're trying to do on your previous attempt

You are making this thread to ask whether what you're doing is ethical or not,
but you last post states that you know that what you're doing might seem a bit intrusive,
and as far as I know, intrusive is closely connected to the act of intruding http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/intruding

Which I might need to ask to you, do you find the act of intruding ethical based on your ethical system?

Personally, if I were in your place,
I'll question the reason why all of the attempts I did didn't seem to work first, before I actually decides to alter the personality of others

Because from an ethical perspective,
for me if its intrusive then it's invading another person territory, and I don't think I would appreciate it if another person invades my territory

And from a beneficial perspective,
for me, altering the will of others is actually a harder attempt than creating a silence comfortable classroom for myself

Based on my experience, when you're working in the scope that you're the only one that will get the outcome, the path is somehow a lot easier
but if you started to include what you want others to do, it started to take a more difficult path to actualization

Because that other person does have a will and a reason why he/she did so, act noisy and stuff,
You can stop that person from making noise, but then another person could just enter the scene and make more noise,
and then you'll need to alter his/her personality too, to find out another person might just enter the scene and make more noise afterward, and so on and so on

So, what is it that you actually want to do for the first scenario?
Silence the people who are noisy?
Or getting a silence classroom for your own beneficial?

Just my 2 cents

...

2 cents and a quarter I think :-?
Or maybe more, sucks...I didn't bring any money with me today...
(trying to act clowny to lessen the ethical tension)

May 24, 2012, 04:44:38 PM
Reply #7

Steve

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If you're unable to cause the change metaphysically, try causing change physically. Build/buy a white-noise generator and bring it to class in your backpack. Try walking up to the front of the class and telling everyone that you'd rather listen to the teacher. Bring a can of "fog horn" (or whatever it's called) and blow it when people start getting too loud, then when you stop blowing it, loudly and angrily yell at them all to shut the fuck up. Or go behind the scenes and ask if you can get transfered to another class.

Until you're capable of causing change with metaphysics alone, use metaphysical attempts to enhance your physical actions instead of replacing them.

~Steve
Mastery does not occur when you've performed a feat once or twice. Instead, it comes after years of training, when you realize that you no longer notice when you're performing a feat which used to require so much effort. Even walking takes years of training for a human: why not everything else?

May 24, 2012, 06:48:46 PM
Reply #8

Constructman

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White noise: Teacher would say it's a distraction. Fog horn: I would get in trouble for causing more of a disturbance than the people talking. Walking up ton front of class: I would be ignored. I'm in the advanced class, so if I transferred, I would  have to go into regular and I don't have any real friends their.

May 29, 2012, 08:06:58 PM
Reply #9

Calvin

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If the problem is that you can't handle the noise perhaps you've a pristine opportunity to cultivate yourself. Instead of applying your psionic abilities to quiet your class, consider developing yourself so as to not be bothered or influenced by external stimuli.  Practice concentration and detachment, learn to silence your minds even in the presence of noise and overcome the forces that bother you.
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May 30, 2012, 10:25:34 AM
Reply #10

Koujiryuu

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From the Tao Teh Ching:

Quote
5. WITHOUT INTENTION

Nature acts without intent,
so cannot be described
as acting with benevolence,
nor malevolence to any thing.

In this respect, the Tao is just the same,
though in reality it should be said
that nature follows the rule of Tao.

Therefore, even when he seems to act
in manner kind or benevolent,
the sage is not acting with such intent,
for in conscious matters such as these,
he is amoral and indifferent.

The sage retains tranquility,
and is not by speech or thought disturbed,
and even less by action which is contrived.
His actions are spontaneous,
as are his deeds towards his fellow men.

By this means he is empty of desire,
and his energy is not drained from him.

Perhaps it is the nature of your class to be loud and noisy?

Perhaps it is the nature of your friends to fall in love?

Perhaps those things are what the universe holds for you, as a test of your concentration. Trying to impose your will on them would be difficult then, because you're going against the natural order.. or rather, you are looking to change what's outside yourself instead of looking inside.

I agree with Calvin. Quiet your mind and forget about your friends. You will have less stress, less trouble, less wasted time from failed metaphysical operations, and you'll learn patience and how to tolerate noise in the process.

Whether your actions are right or wrong is for you to decide as no one directly involved knows about them but you. If a tree falls in the woods, does it make a sound? If your class or friends don't know what you are doing, who is there to judge you? The Dao does not know right or wrong.

Regards and good luck.

~Kouji
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May 30, 2012, 03:54:35 PM
Reply #11

ezpero

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I agree with Calvin and Koujiryuu. There are times when somehow, some things just doesn't work when you actually want them to work the most, the "denial" in a way eventually bring you to the point where you become obsessed with wanting to solve the problem outside of you, when actually, that external problem is actually a reflection of a certain problem inside of you that you first need to realize and solve inside before you are capable of solving things outside of your internal world.

If I'm not mistaken, there's some thread here about Dynamic Psi which said that changes in the external world always starts in one's internal world, didn't quote it word by word, but I think the point is similar. That is why, as my previous response, if things didn't work, I would first ask myself why it doesn't work, before I actually try to influence another people, which for me is part of my external world, and because of that is the harder way around.

Also, obsession doesn't seem to be able to give a satisfying result for altering the world, when you're obsessed, you're somehow limited to your own self and disconnected from the rest of the world (thanks to Robin for the food that leads me to this contemplation). If you really want to make a silent classroom, relax, do some contemplation and introspection, question yourself, and when you are calm and connected to the world, state your intent once more, this time try to take the path of least resistance if you just want to get the result.