Author Topic: Ten answers about God  (Read 26286 times)

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March 25, 2012, 03:13:44 AM
Reply #30

kobok

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if there is a god s/he/it's not answering the phone. Also doesn't seem to care either.

God cares a great deal, and answers the phone regularly.  It's just that God values our free will more than our knowledge of him.  (Which if you think about it is an expression of love, and a statement of his purpose for us.)  But this has a pretty profound implication for communication.  It means as a matter of routine, God does not override our free will for what we think he's saying or not saying.  To hear God clearly, you have to stop hearing your own impression of God.

(And if you think carefully about that, you will see it is not such a simple task.  But it is one worth exploring.)
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March 25, 2012, 09:22:31 AM
Reply #31

Hellblazer

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That was mostly pointed at what people expect of god and what their told god does. I was referring to the people created god, you know the one's that are "Human-ish" in their shapes, forms, and mentality. The god people created.

March 26, 2012, 01:32:54 AM
Reply #32

Enchia

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Well, I got to the point where I simply know God exists same as I know you exist.

What proof do you have for the existence of god instead of just knowing?

March 26, 2012, 02:24:44 AM
Reply #33

Akenu

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Well, I got to the point where I simply know God exists same as I know you exist.

What proof do you have for the existence of god instead of just knowing?

What proof is bigger than knowledge itself? Typically when you need a proof it means you are not sure about correctness of the knowledge (opposite is true as well, many people don't chase proofs because they are scared that their knowledge will be rendered as incorrect).
And what about existence? Doesn't your and my existence prove something?

I will use a typical cliche here: And the God created the world.
What is the proof? Well, we can begin with the existence of the world :).

Now, Enchia, may I ask you one question? Why did you ask me for the proof?

If you do not believe in God then you don't believe in any proof of God, either, and if you do believe in God, you don't need any proof, right?
My very personal opinion why you asked me was your Ego. Your Ego felt attacked by my post and that's why you paid me with the same coin, why you counter-attacked me and there is actually even more of that.
When you asked me about the proof, you didn't ask me, you asked yourself because you believe just in what you know for yourself, we simply cannot believe in anything we don't know.
« Last Edit: March 26, 2012, 04:37:22 AM by Akenu »

March 26, 2012, 04:06:16 AM
Reply #34

Searcher

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As a believer that god and his dynasty only exist because of the combined belief of man, why do people who believe in divine creation have to keep raising the matter where as those who donít partake in the divine creation theory do not?

And why if someone disagrees as it got to be that it is there ego that is doing the disagreeing not that the disagreement is based on understanding?
We can look but do we see and we can listen but do we hear? So what gets in the way?
👂u have to say because I don't do hints👂

March 26, 2012, 04:32:05 AM
Reply #35

Akenu

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As a believer that god and his dynasty only exist because of the combined belief of man, why do people who believe in divine creation have to keep raising the matter where as those who donít partake in the divine creation theory do not?

And why if someone disagrees as it got to be that it is there ego that is doing the disagreeing not that the disagreement is based on understanding?

This is actually very good question :). Image of God as personified being (sometimes called Demiurge, false god) does exist as an egregore thanks to the combined belief of man, you have a point for that.
From that we can see that God is just a word and depends a lot what definition you use. For example Buddhism has omitted word God totally but meaning behind their salvation from cycle of reincarnation is very same as a definition for God I use, but it isn't a reason for ego-related message, either.

Reason why I sent that message to Enchia was that I am not here to convert anyone, I just need 10 questions regarding God that I will answer for myself so I can track my progress much later after I finish reading Zohar. From that you can see there is no need for me to prove God and there is no need for anyone else to attack my belief.

For the rest I believe you can understand a written text and therefore you have no problem in understanding what the message really meant.

Now let's get back to the topic, I am still waiting for 2 questions :).

March 26, 2012, 06:05:07 AM
Reply #36

Enchia

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What proof is bigger than knowledge itself?

Testable claims, I guess.

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Typically when you need a proof it means you are not sure about correctness of the knowledge(opposite is true as well, many people don't chase proofs because they are scared that their knowledge will be rendered as incorrect).

That's true.

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And what about existence? Doesn't your and my existence prove something?

In my mind it proves something but not the thing you are thinking, I assume.

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I will use a typical cliche here: And the God created the world.
What is the proof? Well, we can begin with the existence of the world

If I understand you right your logical argument goes like : God created the world therefore the world exists.
Then again I will reject the premise that God created the world because of the lack of evidence for the existence of such a being.

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If you do not believe in God then you don't believe in any proof of God

Its a strawman you are making here. I don't believe in God not because I don't believe in any proof of God but because no solid proof has been presented to me.

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and if you do believe in God, you don't need any proof, right?

I guess that is the best definition of what faith is.

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My very personal opinion why you asked me was your Ego. Your Ego felt attacked by my post and that's why you paid me with the same coin, why you counter-attacked me and there is actually even more of that.
When you asked me about the proof, you didn't ask me, you asked yourself because you believe just in what you know for yourself, we simply cannot believe in anything we don't know.

Still does not addresses the point I was trying to make.

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Reason why I sent that message to Enchia was that I am not here to convert anyone,[....] From that you can see there is no need for me to prove God and there is no need for anyone else to attack my belief.

Please don't be so sensitive. I was just asking for some proof.

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I just need 10 questions regarding God that I will answer for myself so I can track my progress much later after I finish reading Zohar.

I am throwing some though questions toward you. Be a bit more gratefull.
« Last Edit: March 26, 2012, 06:12:31 AM by Enchia »

March 26, 2012, 06:18:30 AM
Reply #37

Akenu

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@Enchia: As you wish :).
I cannot give you any testable claim of God beyond testable claims you already have that is for one simple reason.
God is beyond physical world and what is beyond physical world cannot be tested. This might sound stupid, so I will elaborate a bit more on something we all know and agree with.

PSI:
PSI is a metaphysical energy (meta = beyond), meaning that we cannot directly measure PSI. Still, there are tests that prove existence of PSI, how that is done?

Simply, in tests we don't measure PSI directly, but we measure its effect on physical matter. Whether it is spinning of a PSI wheel, affecting of random number generators or even suggesting certain image through telepathy, we don't measure PSI itself. We do not measure the process, just the output.

By using above example we can say we cannot measure God directly, we cannot measure His processes, just his output and the output is everywhere around you. Your life, your surroundings, the whole universe is of His creation and I understand you will hardly accept that as a proof.

March 26, 2012, 06:31:04 AM
Reply #38

Enchia

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The difference between testing psi and testing god is that with psi you have a testable cause and a testable effect.

You can test the existence of a psion (being present in the room) and its effect on for example a RNG. With god on the other hand you have a testable 'effect' so to speak but no testable cause.
The cause could be anything one can think of. It could be God or it could be Fred the drunken alien because there is no observation or testable claim of and even if there is a cause outside of the physical world.

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I understand you will hardly accept that as a proof.

I am actually surprised to see that you come up what a more unique argument. I was expecting some cosmological arguments or pascals wager etc.

March 26, 2012, 06:36:59 AM
Reply #39

Akenu

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The difference between testing psi and testing god is that with psi you have a testable cause and a testable effect.

You can test the existence of a psion (being present in the room) and its effect on for example a RNG. With god on the other hand you have a testable 'effect' so to speak but no testable cause.
The cause could be anything one can think of. It could be God or it could be Fred the drunken alien because there is no observation or testable claim of and even if there is a cause outside of the physical world.

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I understand you will hardly accept that as a proof.

I am actually surprised to see that you come up what a more unique argument. I was expecting some cosmological arguments or pascals wager etc.

Sorry for not meeting your expectations :).

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I understand you will hardly accept that as a proof.
I would compare this to the Matrix movie. You can hardly say that world around you is an illusion unless you already was in the real world.

Now to use your logic:
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The difference between testing psi and testing god is that with psi you have a testable cause and a testable effect.
What's the cause of PSI? Why does it exist and how does it work?

March 26, 2012, 06:45:57 AM
Reply #40

Enchia

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What's the cause of PSI? Why does it exist and how does it work?

You answered it yourself...

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Simply, in tests we don't measure PSI directly, but we measure its effect on physical matter. Whether it is spinning of a PSI wheel, affecting of random number generators or even suggesting certain image through telepathy, we don't measure PSI itself. We do not measure the process, just the output.

To make it more clear:

Testing Psi:

Psion (testable cause) - Unknown process (called psi in this context, hypothetical) - Effect on RNG (testable effect)

Testing God:

God (untestable cause) - God's power (I guess that would be the process, hypothetical) - Effect on the universe (assumed effect)

Without a testable cause how would you ever know what its effect is?

Anyway don't start moving the goalpost.

March 26, 2012, 07:06:51 AM
Reply #41

Akenu

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I am not moving the goalpost, Enchia, I was just preparing the background :).
Kobok is both Christian and Psion so I believe that he will elaborate the topic to greater extent.

Now regarding the topic, I wasn't asking about the process of using PSI (psion = cause, etc), but about the existence and purpose of PSI itself.
And reason was you want me to explain something as untestable as God is, yet you do admit it is impossible to explain even something as testable as PSI is.

I will mystify this topic even more by listing PSI and Magick as a proofs of God and my work is done here :).

March 26, 2012, 07:14:30 AM
Reply #42

Enchia

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I will mystify this topic even more by listing PSI and Magick as a proofs of God and my work is done here :).

Proof it and its a go.

March 26, 2012, 07:24:36 AM
Reply #43

Akenu

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I will mystify this topic even more by listing PSI and Magick as a proofs of God and my work is done here :).

Proof it and its a go.

That's the best part. As we cannot measure PSI or Magick directly, we cannot trace it back to the Creator in the sense we are used to. This means that PSI and Magick cannot be either verifed or discarded as a proof of God.

Meaning: We got to the point where we should simply argue to the death whether these are/are not proofs of God same as children would do:

-IT IS
-IT IS NOT
-IT IS
-IT IS NOT
-IT IS
-IT IS NOT
-IT IS
-IT IS NOT
-IT IS
-IT IS NOT

So to simplify this process of argumentation, I already specified why I believe it is the way I believe it is. Now you should provide me with proofs that negate my believes. Provide me with a proof that God doesn't exist :).
« Last Edit: March 26, 2012, 07:29:40 AM by Akenu »

March 26, 2012, 08:08:22 AM
Reply #44

Enchia

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Its just to easy.

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So to simplify this process of argumentation, I already specified why I believe it is the way I believe it is. Now you should provide me with proofs that negate my believes. Provide me with a proof that God doesn't exist .

There is no testable evidence so why believe in something like that?

But in all fairness, you are shifting the burden of proof on me but I don't make the claim, you do. I just asked you to proof that claim.

You make the argument this: "I believe in A so proof to me that it is wrong or else it is true".
In essence A could be God, a pixie or Fred the drunken alien and all have the same amount of validity because they all lack the same amount proof.