Author Topic: Dangers of quoting the bible.  (Read 7889 times)

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July 29, 2008, 10:28:08 AM
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akilalleyne

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Look at this quote from the bible and the two hypothetical arguments that arise.

"I am the way, the truth and the life.  No one comes to the Father except through me."

A christian comes across a magician and attempts to convert him from the wrong path to the right one. "Accepting Jesus Christ and following his teachings will get you saves heathen." Come now sinner! Leave your wretched life behind. Jesus is the only way to salvation."


The magician looks at the christian and smiles. He asked, " Was Jesus, not the embodiment of divine love?" He continues, "Therefore it stands to reason that No one comes through the Father except through learning to love unconditionally? That Love is the truth, the life and the way?" The magician asks again," Is Love not the Law, my brother?"

July 29, 2008, 12:32:46 PM
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Kichara

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I don't see any danger in the quoting then.  The only dangerous aspect is that both the magician and the Christian assumed they knew what was right.

So what you are saying(to me) is that it is dangerous to think you know what is right.
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July 29, 2008, 12:53:11 PM
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akilalleyne

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What I was trying to say which i probaly failed at was the Bible is so subjective and open to almost any interpretation that most people can quote it for their own uses. it was just an example of two different views using the scripture to convey their point. Neither is wrong, but to those that don't know what to believe a certain confusion occurs. Most people, if not everyone needs someone to be wrong and someone to be right, it seems to me that they cant allow for the possibility that they are both right. Anyways, before i run off  on a tangent. I just meant that once someone can argue a good point, the Bible could be used to reinforce the point.

July 29, 2008, 05:12:47 PM
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Saer

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What I was trying to say which i probaly failed at was the Bible is so subjective and open to almost any interpretation that most people can quote it for their own uses. it was just an example of two different views using the scripture to convey their point. Neither is wrong, but to those that don't know what to believe a certain confusion occurs. Most people, if not everyone needs someone to be wrong and someone to be right, it seems to me that they cant allow for the possibility that they are both right. Anyways, before i run off  on a tangent. I just meant that once someone can argue a good point, the Bible could be used to reinforce the point.

I believe you hit the nail on the head when you said, "open to almost any interpretation", as this is what I believe to be the main reason the Bible exists. It gives answers, personal to each individual. We will all go through different struggles in our lives and there will always be different views, but if there is one source that each person, with their very different problems can turn to, and find comfort, and always seek something higher even though they are in a low state, then the Bible serves the greatest purpose of all books.
As you love your own body, so regard everyone as equal to your own body. When the Supreme Experience supervenes, everyone's service is revealed as one's own service. Call it a bird, an insect, an animal or a man, call it by any name you please, one serves one's own Self in every one of them. ~ Ma

July 29, 2008, 10:52:07 PM
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Steve

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Danger in quoting Crowley as well, especially in context of the bible. The "love" that Crowley talks of is not the same type of love that the bible talks of.

Quote
Neither is wrong,
Or maybe both interpretations are wrong. Simply believing that noone is wrong does not make it so; there are wrong interpretations of the bible. The danger then is attempting to "interpret" the bible without having studied what is written within it, because then you are simply imposing your own beliefs on other peoples' writings.

I'm sure many poets would be sad to hear the various conjectures about how their poems are "supposed" to be read, as well as many fiction authors (For instance, Christians claiming that the Philip Pullman series of books, "The Dark Materials", was anti-christian propoganda), and even scientists listening to us laymen incorrectly "interpret" various scientific principles. Just because some things in the universe are subjective does not mean all things are.

~Steve
Mastery does not occur when you've performed a feat once or twice. Instead, it comes after years of training, when you realize that you no longer notice when you're performing a feat which used to require so much effort. Even walking takes years of training for a human: why not everything else?

August 04, 2008, 12:58:57 PM
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Jeckel

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Jesus once cursed a tree for not giving him a fruit (while it was out of season) so that the tree may never bear fruit again.

The dangers in quoting the bible is that it was a primitive book written by primitive people for a primitive time in world societies.

Some of the parables and moral stories can be applied to today's life (if one so chooses or needs it) however there are plenty of things that were used literally back then that are simply abominations to even speak of to do now.
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August 04, 2008, 03:13:03 PM
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Steve

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The dangers in quoting the bible is that it was a primitive book written by primitive people for a primitive time in world societies.
You say that as though we're not primitive ourselves :P

~Steve
Mastery does not occur when you've performed a feat once or twice. Instead, it comes after years of training, when you realize that you no longer notice when you're performing a feat which used to require so much effort. Even walking takes years of training for a human: why not everything else?

August 05, 2008, 02:14:48 AM
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Silver_Archer

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The dangers in quoting the bible is that it was a primitive book written by primitive people for a primitive time in world societies.
You say that as though we're not primitive ourselves :P

~Steve

Relative to the people who wrote it? No. We are most certainly not.
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August 05, 2008, 02:38:05 AM
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Zohar

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I think akilalleyne is trying to acknowledge the dangers of taking the scriptures at face value, and then throwing them in someone's face. I completely agree with her if that is the point, so many wars could have been stopped and so many lives could have been saved if people could just learn that the Scriptures have a different personal meaning to different people.

Same goes for many other spiritual and magical texts. Read between the lines and try to intepret them instead of taking anything literally. Especially before throwing them in somebody's face.
G-d created the world in the image of the world above; all which is found above has its analogy below... and everything constitues a unity.

August 05, 2008, 06:21:16 PM
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Steve

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Vivi: Though our knowledge and factual data of the universe and ourselves has increased greatly over the past three or four hundred years, I'm afraid to say that the way that the majority of the human race thinks has likely not.

We are still deluded about how self-important we are, and are willing to fight others in order to foolishly "validate" our beliefs or ways of life, and there is little that can be said about human habits and interactions today that has not already been known by scholars of millenia past.

~Steve
Mastery does not occur when you've performed a feat once or twice. Instead, it comes after years of training, when you realize that you no longer notice when you're performing a feat which used to require so much effort. Even walking takes years of training for a human: why not everything else?

August 05, 2008, 09:22:16 PM
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Silver_Archer

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Vivi: Though our knowledge and factual data of the universe and ourselves has increased greatly over the past three or four hundred years, I'm afraid to say that the way that the majority of the human race thinks has likely not.

We are still deluded about how self-important we are, and are willing to fight others in order to foolishly "validate" our beliefs or ways of life, and there is little that can be said about human habits and interactions today that has not already been known by scholars of millenia past.

~Steve

I disagree. While we still 'fight others in order to foolishly validate our beliefs or way of life', we're not quite as blatant about it as we were , say, during the crusades. Human society has evolved a lot since the time of the scholars of millennium past.

The standard form of government in those days was monarchy. These days, it's democracy. While there exist many oppressive regimes even today,viewed as an aggregate, we have more freedom and power in government than people did in societies of millennium past. .

I recall no society in those days even recognizing women as equal in capability to men (heck, people like Confucian even considered women sub-human). This is not the case today.

Citizens of the present era are far more secure and free than those from the past. While there are still many appalling breaches of human rights around the world even today, when viewed as an aggregate, we definitely have a better record than the societies of millennium past.

Law and order is another important sphere where we've made considerable progress. While there continue to exist many regimes where law and order remain a joke, viewed as an aggregate, legal framework in today's day and age is far more sophisticated and just than those in societies of millennium past.

There are probably more examples of how we've developed as a society, but I can't quite remember them at the moment, so I shall stop here.
« Last Edit: August 05, 2008, 09:25:53 PM by Silver_Archer »
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August 06, 2008, 04:30:07 PM
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Steve

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You need to study up on the Romans :)

They had a sort of democratic oligarchy which only switched to an autocracy in times of war (though I would question whether the "democracies" in modern civilization are true democracies or merely the illusions of such). Some of their philosophers were of the best in human history, displaying an understanding of logic and wisdom beyond their factual data, and of which most modern "philosophers" and philosophies do not even compare. Their women were equal to men, even taking on political offices and being trained in mandatory military duty in the same regards as men (women equality today does not truly exist either, except among the groups of people who voluntarily mandate it amongst themselves).

"Citizens of the present era are far more secure and free than those from the past." Are they, now? The SS of Germany. The KGB of Russia. The CIA, and now Homeland Security Agency, of the USA. It is wishful thinking to believe that such organizations only work in the best interest of the people, or even in the guise of Justice while protecting the nation. Power corrupts.

Much of the USA culture is based in Roman culture, even if the citizens don't yet know it.

As for minor events in history like the Crusades, such things are still happening today, in our "evolved world"; Rwanda, Afghanistan, the one in the Bulkans that I can't recall the name of the country (was it Yugoslavia where they began the ethnic cleansing?), the invasion of Iraq for oil, World War 1 and 2 (in the past 100 years, so they are quite modern), Russia under Stalin, etc.

For all the technological changes you see around you, humans remain quite similar to our ancestors.

~Steve
Mastery does not occur when you've performed a feat once or twice. Instead, it comes after years of training, when you realize that you no longer notice when you're performing a feat which used to require so much effort. Even walking takes years of training for a human: why not everything else?

August 06, 2008, 06:21:22 PM
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zpo

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Don't forget Pharaonic Egypt.  Women Pharaohs.  Women High Priests.  We are technologically advanced, but our culture is young, even based on Greek->Roman culture.

August 06, 2008, 11:11:39 PM
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Silver_Archer

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You need to study up on the Romans :)

They had a sort of democratic oligarchy which only switched to an autocracy in times of war (though I would question whether the "democracies" in modern civilization are true democracies or merely the illusions of such). Some of their philosophers were of the best in human history, displaying an understanding of logic and wisdom beyond their factual data, and of which most modern "philosophers" and philosophies do not even compare. Their women were equal to men, even taking on political offices and being trained in mandatory military duty in the same regards as men (women equality today does not truly exist either, except among the groups of people who voluntarily mandate it amongst themselves).

"Citizens of the present era are far more secure and free than those from the past." Are they, now? The SS of Germany. The KGB of Russia. The CIA, and now Homeland Security Agency, of the USA. It is wishful thinking to believe that such organizations only work in the best interest of the people, or even in the guise of Justice while protecting the nation. Power corrupts.

Much of the USA culture is based in Roman culture, even if the citizens don't yet know it.

As for minor events in history like the Crusades, such things are still happening today, in our "evolved world"; Rwanda, Afghanistan, the one in the Bulkans that I can't recall the name of the country (was it Yugoslavia where they began the ethnic cleansing?), the invasion of Iraq for oil, World War 1 and 2 (in the past 100 years, so they are quite modern), Russia under Stalin, etc.

For all the technological changes you see around you, humans remain quite similar to our ancestors.

~Steve

I am quite certain I was speaking of aggregates. The fact is, if you view the general scheme of things (as opposed to specific incidents), humanity has made significant progress on each one of those fronts I mentioned. A large part of your argument is very similar to the argument people use to claim how the world is getting worse/going to the dogs, except that instead of saying that we are deteriorating, you're saying that we are pretty much in the same state.

It is impractical to compare the Romans with modern democracy. Modern democracy is far more advanced, and we do not 'shift to an autocracy' during times of war. One can argue along those lines, but there is a significant difference between seeming to become more autocratic, and actually becoming an autocracy. At any rate, the Romans simply did not have the technology (especially in the field of communication) to have the kind of democracy we have today. The Romans still kept slaves, while we most certainly do not. Nor does any nation only proclaim desires to conquer other nations. And while there are many democracies which appear quite illusory, there are many which are not. I do remember speaking about aggregates in my previous post, and I shall speak of them again. On average, we have better governments today than we did during the Romans. The same argument applies for womens equality as well. On average, equality is far more common today than in the past. This is also the case with all other fronts that we covered.
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August 06, 2008, 11:38:03 PM
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Jeckel

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on ancient Rome and their democracy...I would like you to say hello to a man called Ceasar...he pretty much said "Screw Democracy" the senate killed him, of course, because that's what the senate does to a ruling body they don't like, they stab them to death....ya know..because when the democrats took majority in the house and the senate in the United States...they stabbed Bush to death and...OH WAIT!

Also, on the subject of ancient Rome, it turns out that after mr. Julius there...the next guy decided to keep things as an empire...and so on and so forth...democracy was demolished.

The Nazi's only reigned in Germany for about 7 or so years. The KGB did what they had to do during the cold war while mother Russia was still the soviet union. Oh, the CIA has never kicked me in my ass for breaking a law. Homeland Security is a joke of an agency...does nearly nothing.

The Crusades were not a minor event...and there were multiple instances of them.

World War 1, and 2 were unfortunate pile-ups based on old treaties...well 1 more than 2. 2 was an issue of one mad group of people.

the invasion of Iraq was NOT just an oil grab.

we are far better than our ancestors and it is BECAUSE of our technological advancements. The average citizen in a developed nation enjoys more comfort than a royal ruling class of the middle ages...or hell....in victorian times or even just a hundred and some change years ago. We may not live in giant stone castles with hundreds of servants but I can control the climate in my house, entertainment at my fingertips...and that is just to name a few of the amazing things.

Oh hey...one other thing.....if you were to walk through a city in most developed nations....and asked someone to read something in their native language...they would probably read it because EDUCATION IS MORE EASILY AVAILABLE BECAUSE OF OUR MORE EVOLVED SENSIBILITIES IN GOVERNMENT AND HUMAN RIGHTS.

Canada sucks.
Just a wishful thinker with the worst intentions.

The dreams in which I'm dying are the best I've ever had. - Mad World